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MOD EDIT:
On June 13 2013 01:09 TaKeTV wrote:
It´s a sad day for the Acer TeamStory Cup powered by Intel. We have to announce the disqualification of Karont3 E-Sport Club. This step was extremely hard for us, but there was no other possible solution in our mind.
What happened?
Karont3 E-Sport Club closed his doors and disbandend his Starcraft 2 Squad. The remaining Players were ViPro and LoLvsxD. Additional the joker Socke also remains. 3 Players left, 1 of them plays for Team Alternate, 2 without any team, searching for an new home.
Our idea and our solution for the Acer TeamStory Cup is written in the name. We desire a Teamleague. We want wars with lesser known players, nice comebacks with Ace players backed up by team spirit. This is the reason why we made a best-of-9 format. Our target was to get teams with big and deep rosters. At any point in time, we tried to avoid mix teams. We don´t want any "Allstar"-Parties. We need teams, no rosters. Teams for our TeamStory Cup.
Sadly, Karont3 isn´t that team anymore. It´s no team anymore, it´s a roster of pro-players, searching for a new home. We can´t continue with Karont3 cause it fit´s not in our understanding of a professional team.
What were our option?
Just continue with just the remaining players.
This option is contra productive to our understanding of a team. We need at least 4 players for a team-cup, the remaining won´t have them, it´s a too small roster nor it´s a team anymore.
Add to the remaining players new ones.
So we do not want any mix teams - but we accept a roster of players to play in a "mixed"-Team? This can´t be the aim of a team league. This wouldn´t be a team. Also this wouldn´t be fair for all teams in the league.
Add the manager to the player-roster.
This is a solution we discussed way more often. Would this be the best solution? Just add the manager to the roster and there are 4 "players" left. But after we thought about this scenario, what happens when one of the players leave this roster (Like ViPro who´s playing for coL now, yes we were informed about this step before!). What´s up if more players are leaving, to get a contract and to get paid? You have to make sure, Vipro and LoLvsxD are pros and they want a team. Yes a team - no roster to play in a team league. We end up with a mixed roster of players.
We spoke about this topic intern and ofc with all other teams in the league as well. We didn´t kick just anyone. We tried and thought about it all the way and spend a lot of hours to let ex-K3 players play in our Acer TeamStory Cup any longer. But with the leave of viPro, LoLvsxD's "team-search" and Socke as the joker, without any company - this roster of ex-Karont3 isn´t Karont3 E-Sports Club anymore.
We are sad and don´t like this outcome. We would like to say a big sorry especially to the fans and viewers. They played a great season, they are pretty well players and humans. It´s our fault to bring that statement way too late. Blame us for being not that fast, but we tried and thought about so many ways to go on with Karont3. In the end, we think this is the only way.
Farewell, Karont3 E-Sport Club, Ryo, ViPro, LoLvsxD and Socke as their joker.
What will happen now?
• Karont3 will went to the last Spot of the league, regardless of their score.
• Every new clanwar will result in a defwin (5-0) for the other team.
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1rkohal
Translation by MadJack
They are kicking us from the Acer TeamStory Cup
First a little context. As you know, after the release of lucifron and vortix from Karont3 and the following closure of the SC2 division, the members that were left from the team, we decided to keep playing toguether the competition. We played our next match against Acer however we could and won 5-3. This would let us keep second place in the league with 6 victorys and 2 loses, after having played once with every team and 8 rounds more to play (half to be precise). So far so good.
Once we played the match against Acer, I asked the admin whom we use to comunicate with normaly if it would be possible to have 1 or 2 signings maximum so that we could have 5 players again since that was the number of players that we had till the release of my brothers, and the minimum required by the league being 4. At that moment we only had 3 players: LoLvsxD, viPro and Socke. Having 2 signings would have led into us keeping 60% of our original team, as minimum. The main admin at first tells me that yes, we can sign all the players that we want with the only restriction: If they had already played the ATC with another team, they had to wait to round in order to be elegible to play with us. He tells me that he will talk to the rest -admins i assume- but taht there shouldnt be any problems, and tells me to talk to TaKe (The big boss of TaKeTV) just to confirm it. Next day, I talk to TaKe and he himself confirms to me, and asks me to tell him asap who we sign and under what name do we want to compete
at that point in time. We started looking for players and after a couple of days of asking many players and teams against the clock -they felt gainst the clock- ThorZaiN and SortOf join us (With EG's and WW's consent). This was ideal because we were replacing a terran and a zerg with the same races, also keeping the orignal number of members of the team.
Once the team was formed, i talk to TaKe again, and he gives me the OK and sends me to another admin, diferent that the first, so that i give him all the info to make public the changes on the team. To our surprise, this second admin tells me for the first time that we CAN NOT count in those players, since their teams already played the qualifications for the ATC and thus, not elegible. At that point we told him that the 1st admin didnt told us any of that, and that we already had TaKe's OK. Plus, I told him that we had already been moving to contact the players and their teams and that we had the OK from everybody, also that they belong to teams that didnt even made it to the league itself. He does not budge (Even tho hes going against his own boss) and asks me to give him 1 day to talk to TaKe and the rest of the admins from TaKeTV.
Next day, I talk to the admin with certain untrust, y he tells me that yes, they would allow us to play with those signs: “TaKe's Word”, he says. Following thing, this adming sends a mail that informs all the managers of all teams about the changes, hoping that they "can live with them somehow" and that he hopes they "accept this decision that has been really hard to make". In that main, I felt the admin was informing something that he didnt agree with -as in the admin was showing how unhappy he was about the decision-. After the mail, the managers of 2 participant teams answer, saying that they dont think its allright, that its against the rulesd since we are not a real team anymore and that besides we would be playing with 3 jokers. I tell them that its nottrue, but we only try to remain in the league with the same number of players that we had and even players of the same races, so that the league can go on with the least number of changes. However , they "stay on their 13"-popular saying that means being stubborn or not change their mind- hoping that other/s teams adds to the protest and that the admin changes the decision.
At that moment enters the scene the head admin of TaKeTV and we keep talking about the subject with him. At once he tells us that its impossible that that we remain in the league with those reinforces. We tru to talk about it but it was definitive, so we finally had to tell ThorZaiN y SortOf that in the end they could not play. Some teams propoused that we could go on the league having 1 "revive" en each round, that way we could finish the league with the 3 players that we had. Rapidly the admins and other teams discard the solution, sticking to the rule of the number of revives per season (that is 2).
After this, we try proposing various solutions. The first was to still make the 2 signs that were not related to any team, so that we would be a team made of teamless members + 1 joker: Socke. This, under my point of view, doesnt contradict any of the rules of the league. However, we were also told that it is not possible either, because the team would not cover the definition of "ideal" team from the admins by not being a real team/organization. To this we answered that a group of teamless players that joined toguether to play the league, after having played the majority of the rounds 8 of them and having strickly kept the schedules and same manager, could easily accomplish the obligations of the league as any of the other teams, and as done till the date. But nothing, there was no way. We decided to propose another solution: Keep going with no signs and no extra revives, just using me as fourth player, to not give a defwin every match once we run out of revives. The same 4 players that had played under Karont3 tag, no changes, except one name change. So to this propose, the answer was that they could not allow it because "A match of a professional players vs Ryo would not be interesting to the spectators and would be unbalanced" and, by that, we had not enough players to go on.
We keep trying to talk to the, saying that it was better that, than making us dissapear from the league after being second place, voiding all our matches and leaving the league with one less team at half the season. In addition, we were the same that had been from the start during the whole season, that we have had kept-fill in: preformance- at all times, and that we want to keep going even without he signings, since the 3 players that we had left wanted to keep playing and theat they could achieve a spot in the final, as was seen with Acer. After talkin to the head admin for the last time, he tells me in few hours he will give me a definitive answer. After a while, he comunicates me that we are out of the league, that we do not meet the definition of "ideal" team for them. At that moment I show him some teams that played the american qualification round for the ATC that were not professional teams, And i ask him to explain in what are we different from them. At that moment the admin disconnects from skype without answering and have not have any news from them since. Socke and viPro have tryed to talk with them on their own but to no aval, we are out.
My personal opinion about all this is that after losing Luci and vortix, some teams counted on of dissapearing, which would benefit all the teams except MVP (the only ones who have not said anything about the subject, that i know of) facing the top 4. Since this was not going to be the case, and that we were going to have kept a strong team and that we even defeated Acer with 3 players, they decided to make pressure to have us kicked out, and the admins comply and take their side. At the end, we were the small team.
Its a shame, because LoLvsxD, Socke y viPro wanted to go on, but they just simply didnt let them. At the end the only thing that we asked for was to keep playing with the same players that had been playing till that moment, execpt the 2 releases, without breaking a rule or anything like that. Simply, keep playing. But as I said, they have not allowed us. And its not because we have not tryed, as you can see, we have tryed everything.
Now you see that the rosary of lame excuses that they hae put on us has been very motley-as in varied-, and the admins have been throwing the ball from one to another till the final outcome. The motives that have to do with rules can be accepted. Even tho this is quite an exceptional situation we can understand that they want to respect the rules, even tho there are teams taht have weeks of delay in their matches and they dont seem to have had nothing happened to them or the fact that my brothers were in fact able to inmediatly play and with no trouble at all with their new team after having played with us (Wheres the 2 rounds of wait in this case?). However, the last motives have not feel to me strong justifications to kick a team out of a league, by far.
Anyways, Simply giving the thanks to all the fans who have followed to the end. I feel sorry that we can not go on, because we feel that we had a chance to make the playoff, especially after the match against Acer, there was certainly a lot of desire on trying. Also, thank you to the 3 players that were left, that have been till the last trying by any means to remain in the league and thanks to TaKe, that give me the impression to be the only one of the admins i have talked to to use common sense y wanted us to keep going, but i suppoused that being surrounded of so much people, he has to accept what the majority wants.
¡Salutations!
Correction of my translation by Topin:
+ Show Spoiler +
We were kicked out of the Acer TeamStory Cup.
First a little background. As you know, following the departure of LucifroN and VortiX from Karont3 and the subsequent closure of the SC2 section, the remaining members of the team decided to stay together playing in the competition. We played out our next match against Acer and we and won 5-3. This allowed us to go second in the league with 6 wins and 2 losses, after playing against every team in eight playdays (exactly half).
So far so normal. Once the game against Acer was done I ask the admin with which we communicate regularly whether we could make 1 or 2 signings to regain a 5 player roster as it was the number of players that we had before the departure of my brothers, and the minimum required by the league is 4. At that time we had only 3 players: LoLvsxD, VIPRO and Socke. Making 2 signings would at least have maintained 60% of the original team. At first the admin said yes, we can sign all the players we want with a single constraint: if the ATC had played with another team we had to wait two days (T/N playdays?) to play with us. He said to me that he would talk to the rest but that there should not be a problem , and tells me to talk to TaKe (the boss of TakeTV) to confirm. The next day, I talked to TaKe and he confirmed me, and asked me to tell who we signed as soon as possible and under what name we want to compete from then on. We started looking for players and, after a couple of days and after asking many players and teams sortof Thorzain and joined us (with the consent of EG and WW). This was ideal as we replaced a terran and zerg players from the same races, while also keeping the original number of players on the team.
Once the team was formed, I returned to speak to TaKe who gave me the OK and refered me to another admin, other than the first, to give him all the info to post the changes on the website. To our surprise, this second admin tells me for the first time that NO, we can't have these new players, as their teams played the qualifiers for the ATC and therefore would not be eligible. At that time we said that the first admin did not tell us anything, and we already had the OK of TaKe. Furthermore, I said that we had been moving to contact players and their teams and had the OK from everyone (TFunk and SortOf and their teams) also, EG and WW didnt play the actual league (only tuq qualis i assume). He does not budge (despite being contradicting his own boss) and asks me to wait for one day, so he could talk to TaKe and other TakeTV admins.
The next day, I return to speak to the admin that FIRST said NO and now he said yes, we can play with those signings: "Word of TaKe" he says. Then the admin sends a mail that informs all managers of all the teams about the changes, hoping that theycan live with it in some way" and hopes to "accept this decision, which has been very difficult to make ". In this mail I thought the admin was reporting something that he didnt agree. After the mail, the managers of two teams who play the league answer by saying that it's not okay, it's against the rules since we are not a real team and also would be playing with 3 jokers. I tell them that's true, but we just tried to stay in the league with the same number of players we had before and even with players of the same race, so that the league can continue with as few changes as possible. However, they are still on their heels, giving rise to some other team will join the protests and that the admin changes his mind again.
Now the head admin of TakeTV appears and we're speaking about the subject with him. He tells us it is impossible to go on with these two signings. We tried to continue to speak but it was his final decision, so I finally had to tell sortof and Thorzain they couldn't play. Some teams proposed that the league could continue with allowing everyone to revive a player on each playday so that we could finish the league with 3 players. Quickly, the admins and some teams discarded the solution, clinging to the existing revive number rule of per season (which is 2).
After this, we tried to propose several solutions. The first was to continue doing one or two signings of players who were completely teamless, so that we would be a team of teamless players + 1 joker: Socke. This, in my point of view, does not contradict any league rule. However, they also told us that it is not possible, since it does not meet the league admins' definition of an "ideal" team and we weren't a team / organization really. To that we responded to a group of people without team that got together to play the league, having played most of them eight days and have always strictly complied schedules and keeping the same manager, could play quietly with the obligations of the league as the other teams, as we had done so far. But nothing, no way. We decided to propose another solution: continue to do without signings and additional revives, using me as the 4th player, so we would not give a defwin in each match. The same four people who had played under the tag of Karont3, unchanged, except for a name change. In this new proposal, the response was that they could not do that because "a match of a professional player vs Ryo would not be interesting for spectators and would be unfair" and therefore we did not have enough players to continue.
After that we tried to follow up by explaining them that it was better to not disappear from the league after finishing second, forfeiting all our previous matches and leaving the league with a team less midseason. In addition, we were the same as we had been throughout the league, we had met every team once, and we wanted to continue even with no signings, since our 3 players were eager to continue and we could have even reached the final as could be seen with our win against Acer. After speaking with the head admin for the last time, he said that in a few hours he would give me a definitive answer. After a while, I was given notice that we are out of the league and that this decision was final, because we are not meeting the definition of an "ideal" team for them. At that time I gave him examples of some teams that played in the American qualifier for ATC that aren't professional teams and I asked him to explain how we are different from them. At that time the admin disconnects from skype and and went missing. I have not heard from him since then. Socke and VIPRO have tried talking to them on their own, but nothing, we're out.
My personal opinion about this is that after losing VortiX and Luci, some teams had expect that we would dissapear, which benefits everyone except MVP (the only one that have not spoken about it, to my knowledge) and increased their chances to get into the top 4 (playoffs). Seeing that this was not about to happen, and that we would continue with a good team that even could beat Acer with 3 players, they decided to put pressure on the admins for us being expelled, and the admins caved in and did their part.At the end of the day, we were the small team.
Its a shame, as LoLvsxD, Socke and VIPRO wanted to continue, but just have to leave. At the end all I asked was to allow us to continue to play as the same we had so far, except with two less players, without breaking any rules or anything special. Simply continue. But as I said, they didnt let us. And not because we have not tried since, as you see, we have tried everything.
You already see that the string of excuses that they gave us have been very mixed, and that the admins have been passing the ball to each other until the final outcome. The reasons that are according to the rules can be accepted. Although this situation is exceptional I can understand they did not want to make exceptions to the rules, even though there are teams that are weeks late in their schedule and it seems that nothing happens, or that my brothers could have played immediately and without any problem with their new team after playing with us (where are the two (T/N play-)days of penalty in this case?). However, the last reasons they gave us had no weight behind them to leave the league without a team.
Anyway, just to say thanks to all who had followed us all the way. Sorry we can not continue, because we believe that there were chances to get to the playoffs, especially after the match against Acer. Also thanks to the 3 players that we had, we have been trying to continue our path in the league, and also thanks to TaKe, which gave me the impression of being the only one of the admins I spoke to who used common sense and he really wanted us to continue, but I suppose being surrounded by so many people you have to accept what the majority says. Greetings!
My original translation:
+ Show Spoiler +Disclaimer: I don't speak a word of Spanish. I tried to make any sense of what Google Translate told me, which works okay for most of the time between European languages. But there are probably wrongly translated statements in there. It would be nice if a Spanish speaking person could correct me.
We were kicked out of the Acer TeamStory Cup.
First a little background. As you know, following the departure of LucifroN and VortiX from Karont3 and the subsequent closure of the SC2 section, the remaining members of the team decided to stay together playing in the competition. We played out our next match against Acer and we and won 5-3. This allowed us to go second in the league with 6 wins and 2 losses, after playing against every team in eight playdays (exactly half).
So far so normal. Again played the match against Acer, ask the admin with which we communicate regularly whether we could make 1 or 2 signings to regain a 5 player roster as it was the number of players that we had before the departure of my brothers, and the minimum required by the league is 4. At that time we had only 3 players: LoLvsxD, VIPRO and Socke. Making 2 signings would at least have maintained 60% of the original team.
At first the admin said yes, we can sign all the players we want with a single constraint: if the ATC had played with another team we had to wait two days (T/N playdays?) to play with us. I said to him talk to the rest but that should not be a problem (T/N don't know what this means), and tells me to talk to TaKe (the boss of TakeTV) to confirm. The next day, I talked to TaKe and he confirmed me, and asked me to tell who we signed as soon as possible and under what name we want to compete from then on. We started looking for players and, after a couple of days and after asking many players and teams to trial, sortof Thorzain and joined us (with the consent of EG and WW). This was ideal as we replaced a terran and zerg players from the same races, while also keeping the original number of players on the team. Once the team was formed, I returned to speak to TaKe who gave me the OK and refered me to another admin, other than the first, to give him all the info to post the changes on the website.
To our surprise, this second admin tells me for the first time that NO, we can't have these new players, as their teams played the qualifiers for the ATC and therefore would not be eligible. At that time we said that the first admin did not tell us anything, and we already had the OK of TaKe. Furthermore, I said that we had been moving to contact players and their teams and had the OK from everyone belonging to teams that came to play (T/N unsure from who he got the OK exactly... EG and WW or all the teams playing in ATC) and the league itself. He does not budge (despite being contradicting his own boss) and asks me to wait for one day, so he could talk to TaKe and other TakeTV admins. The next day, I return to speak to the admin he said yes, we can play with those signings: "Word of TaKe" he says. Then the admin sends a mail that informs all managers of all the teams about the changes, hoping that "(T/N they?) can live with it in some way" and hopes to "accept this decision, which has been very difficult to make ". In this mail I thought the admin was reporting something that was not right.
After the mail, the managers of two teams who answer by saying that it's not okay, it's against the rules since we are not a real team and also would be playing with 3 jokers. I tell them that's true, but we just tried to stay in the league with the same number of players we had before and even with players of the same race, so that the league can continue with as few changes as possible. However, they are still on their heels, giving rise to some other team will join the protests and that the admin change (T/N should change or changes?) his mind again.
Now the head admin of TakeTV appears and we're speaking about the subject with him. He tells us it is impossible to go on with these two signings. We tried to continue to speak but it was his final decision, so I finally had to tell sortof and Thorzain they couldn't play. Some teams proposed that the league could continue with allowing everyone to revive a player on each playday so that we could finish the league with 3 players. Quickly, the admins and some teams discarded the solution, clinging to the existing revive number rule of per season (which is 2).
After this, we tried to propose several solutions. The first was to continue doing one or two signings of players who were completely teamless, so that we would be a team of teamless players + 1 joker: Socke. This, in my point of view, does not contradict any league rule. However, they also told us that it is not possible, since it does not meet the league admins' definition of an "ideal" team and we weren't a team / organization really.
This responded to a group of people without computer that attached to play the league, having played most of them eight days and have always strictly complied schedules and keeping the same manager, could play quietly with the obligations of the league as the other teams, as we had done so far. But nothing, no way. (T/N I think he said: Some teams have argued for Karont3 that they had never any problems playing with them, so they should be able to continue to play as before)
We decided to propose another solution: continue to do without signings and additional revives, using me as the 4th player, so we would not give a defwin in each match. The same four people who had played under the tag of Karont3, unchanged, except for a name change. In this new proposal, the response was that they could not do that because "a match of a professional player vs Ryo would not be interesting for spectators and would be unfair" and therefore we did not have enough players to continue.
After that we tried to follow up by explaining them that it was better to not disappear from the league after finishing second, forfeiting all our previous matches and leaving the league with a team less midseason. In addition, we were the same as we had been throughout the league, we had met every team once, and we wanted to continue even with no signings, since our 3 players were eager to continue and we could have even reached the final as could be seen with our win against Acer.
After speaking with the head admin for the last time, I said that in a few hours I need to get a definitive answer. After a while, I was given notice that we are out of the league and that this decision is final, and we are not meeting the definition of an "ideal" team for them. At that time I gave examples of some teams that played in the American qualifier for ATC that aren't professional teams and I asked him to explain how we are different from them. At that time the admin disconnects in skype and and went missing. I have not heard from him since then. Socke and VIPRO have tried talking to them on their own, but nothing, we're out.
My personal opinion about this is that after losing VortiX and Luci, some teams would have liked had that we would disappear, which benefits everyone except MVP (the only we have not spoken about it, to my knowledge) and increased their chances to get into the top 4 (playoffs). Seeing that this was not about to happen, and that we would continue with a good team that even could beat Acer with 3 players, they decided to put pressure on the admins for us being expelled, and the admins caved in and did their part.
At the end of the day, we were the small team. Shame, as LoLvsxD, Socke and VIPRO wanted to continue, but just have to leave. In the end all I asked for was to allow us to continue to play as the same we had so far, except with two players less, without breaking any rules or anything special. Simply continue. But as I said, we have left (T/N probably: We were forced to leave). And not because we have not tried since, as you see, we have tried everything.
You already see that the string of excuses (T/N we got) have been very mixed, and that the admins have been passing the ball to each other until the final outcome. The reasons have to do with rules which is acceptable. Although this situation is exceptional I can understand they did not want to make exceptions to the rules, even though there are teams that are weeks late in their schedule and it seems that nothing happens, or that my brothers could have played immediately and without any problem with their new team after playing with us (where are the two (T/N play-)days of penalty in this case?). However, the last reason I found no justification to lend weight to a league team, not even close (T/N unsure what he wants to say).
Anyway, just to say thanks to all who have followed us all the way. Sorry we can not continue, because we believe that there were chances to get to the playoffs, especially after the match against Acer. Also thanks to the 3 players that we had, we have been trying to continue our path in the league, and also thanks to TaKe, which gave me the impression of being the only one of the admins I spoke to who used common sense and he really wanted us to continue, but I suppose being surrounded by so many people you have to accept what the majority says. Greetings!
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What the hell.. I really don't like bush league shit. I think it was nice of EG/WW to loan you those two players and they are suitable replacements for VortiX and LucifroN, but I can see where the other teams are coming from although you guys did get dropped from Karont3 so it's not as black & white. How can you sign teamless players who are legit and make everyone happy under these circumstances. I don't know. Too much politicking. Just fucking make it work. Once again, bush league shit.
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United States615 Posts
Oh my god. Poor karont3 
Seems really sad that they got kicked out.
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i think acer made the right choice imo....can't hire ringer's especially when they are on teams already...
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Really weird that you were not allowed to do two new signings!
Not being able to bring in Thorzain and Sortof, I get that, but why could you not sign two new players... I mean imagine players getting injured? You can not get replacements? Doesn't make sense to me.
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On June 11 2013 03:30 imbaSouL wrote:
i think acer made the right choice imo....can't hire ringer's especially when they are on teams already...
I think it was up to taketv admins not acer O_O Otherwise would be big conflict of interest
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United States33399 Posts
Eh, to separate the problems:
1) Poor communication and backtracking from tournament admins: This is terrible, and reflects poorly on the TakeTV organization.
2) Whether or not the K3 survivors constitute a 'real' team and should be allowed to compete: I dunno, this is more debatable, I guess people are going to feel very differently about it.
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really patetic to see how the organization does what the teams tell them...
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tbh, their ONLY player is lolvsxd, not even vipro is in the team anymore..
you cant play a teamleague without a team.
but they shouldve said no right away, all this above seems so pointless
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Thorzain and Sortof? What's the point of a team competition if you can just randomly recruit as many players from other teams as you want to play on your team?
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This situation seems to ring a bell. Stephano vs Xlord, anyone ?
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On June 11 2013 03:30 imbaSouL wrote:
i think acer made the right choice imo....can't hire ringer's especially when they are on teams already...
It's for the competitive spirit. What do you do? Ask Mouz if VortiX/LucifroN finish up this little event with them? Finish what they started? Not sure if Mouz are one of the finalists who qualified lmao. Like I said before, I don't really pay attention to all the bush league shit. Every organization wants to have their own little mini tournament it appears.
So I checked. Looks like Mouz is out. How about we do everyone a favor and let the two brothers wrap this up by playing with the team that's not even sponsored by Karont3 anymore?
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Lame. Seems like there was no solution presented by the admins. Can't sign new, even teamless players, and can't play in the league with only 3 people. What exactly was (ex)Karont3 supposed to do in this situation?
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Im finished, sorry for the typos, if there are any, translated almost word by word.
-aaa- means my comentary on the translation
+ Show Spoiler [translation] +
They are kicking us from the Acer TeamStory Cup
First a little context. As you know, after the release of lucifron and vortix from Karont3 and the following closure of the SC2 division, the members that were left from the team, we decided to keep playing toguether the competition. We played our next match against Acer however we could and won 5-3. This would let us keep second place in the league with 6 victorys and 2 loses, after having played once with every team and 8 rounds more to play (half to be precise). So far so good.
Once we played the match against Acer, I asked the admin whom we use to comunicate with normaly if it would be possible to have 1 or 2 signings maximum so that we could have 5 players again since that was the number of players that we had till the release of my brothers, and the minimum required by the league being 4. At that moment we only had 3 players: LoLvsxD, viPro and Socke. Having 2 signings would have led into us keeping 60% of our original team, as minimum. The main admin at first tells me that yes, we can sign all the players that we want with the only restriction: If they had already played the ATC with another team, they had to wait to round in order to be elegible to play with us. He tells me that he will talk to the rest -admins i assume- but taht there shouldnt be any problems, and tells me to talk to TaKe (The big boss of TaKeTV) just to confirm it. Next day, I talk to TaKe and he himself confirms to me, and asks me to tell him asap who we sign and under what name do we want to compete
at that point in time. We started looking for players and after a couple of days of asking many players and teams against the clock -they felt gainst the clock- ThorZaiN and SortOf join us (With EG's and WW's consent). This was ideal because we were replacing a terran and a zerg with the same races, also keeping the orignal number of members of the team.
Once the team was formed, i talk to TaKe again, and he gives me the OK and sends me to another admin, diferent that the first, so that i give him all the info to make public the changes on the team. To our surprise, this second admin tells me for the first time that we CAN NOT count in those players, since their teams already played the qualifications for the ATC and thus, not elegible. At that point we told him that the 1st admin didnt told us any of that, and that we already had TaKe's OK. Plus, I told him that we had already been moving to contact the players and their teams and that we had the OK from everybody, also that they belong to teams that didnt even made it to the league itself. He does not budge (Even tho hes going against his own boss) and asks me to give him 1 day to talk to TaKe and the rest of the admins from TaKeTV.
Next day, I talk to the admin with certain untrust, y he tells me that yes, they would allow us to play with those signs: “TaKe's Word”, he says. Following thing, this adming sends a mail that informs all the managers of all teams about the changes, hoping that they "can live with them somehow" and that he hopes they "accept this decision that has been really hard to make". In that main, I felt the admin was informing something that he didnt agree with -as in the admin was showing how unhappy he was about the decision-. After the mail, the managers of 2 participant teams answer, saying that they dont think its allright, that its against the rulesd since we are not a real team anymore and that besides we would be playing with 3 jokers. I tell them that its nottrue, but we only try to remain in the league with the same number of players that we had and even players of the same races, so that the league can go on with the least number of changes. However , they "stay on their 13"-popular saying that means being stubborn or not change their mind- hoping that other/s teams adds to the protest and that the admin changes the decision.
At that moment enters the scene the head admin of TaKeTV and we keep talking about the subject with him. At once he tells us that its impossible that that we remain in the league with those reinforces. We tru to talk about it but it was definitive, so we finally had to tell ThorZaiN y SortOf that in the end they could not play. Some teams propoused that we could go on the league having 1 "revive" en each round, that way we could finish the league with the 3 players that we had. Rapidly the admins and other teams discard the solution, sticking to the rule of the number of revives per season (that is 2).
After this, we try proposing various solutions. The first was to still make the 2 signs that were not related to any team, so that we would be a team made of teamless members + 1 joker: Socke. This, under my point of view, doesnt contradict any of the rules of the league. However, we were also told that it is not possible either, because the team would not cover the definition of "ideal" team from the admins by not being a real team/organization. To this we answered that a group of teamless players that joined toguether to play the league, after having played the majority of the rounds 8 of them and having strickly kept the schedules and same manager, could easily accomplish the obligations of the league as any of the other teams, and as done till the date. But nothing, there was no way. We decided to propose another solution: Keep going with no signs and no extra revives, just using me as fourth player, to not give a defwin every match once we run out of revives. The same 4 players that had played under Karont3 tag, no changes, except one name change. So to this propose, the answer was that they could not allow it because "A match of a professional players vs Ryo would not be interesting to the spectators and would be unbalanced" and, by that, we had not enough players to go on.
We keep trying to talk to the, saying that it was better that, than making us dissapear from the league after being second place, voiding all our matches and leaving the league with one less team at half the season. In addition, we were the same that had been from the start during the whole season, that we have had kept-fill in: preformance- at all times, and that we want to keep going even without he signings, since the 3 players that we had left wanted to keep playing and theat they could achieve a spot in the final, as was seen with Acer. After talkin to the head admin for the last time, he tells me in few hours he will give me a definitive answer. After a while, he comunicates me that we are out of the league, that we do not meet the definition of "ideal" team for them. At that moment I show him some teams that played the american qualification round for the ATC that were not professional teams, And i ask him to explain in what are we different from them. At that moment the admin disconnects from skype without answering and have not have any news from them since. Socke and viPro have tryed to talk with them on their own but to no aval, we are out.
My personal opinion about all this is that after losing Luci and vortix, some teams counted on of dissapearing, which would benefit all the teams except MVP (the only ones who have not said anything about the subject, that i know of) facing the top 4. Since this was not going to be the case, and that we were going to have kept a strong team and that we even defeated Acer with 3 players, they decided to make pressure to have us kicked out, and the admins comply and take their side. At the end, we were the small team.
Its a shame, because LoLvsxD, Socke y viPro wanted to go on, but they just simply didnt let them. At the end the only thing that we asked for was to keep playing with the same players that had been playing till that moment, execpt the 2 releases, without breaking a rule or anything like that. Simply, keep playing. But as I said, they have not allowed us. And its not because we have not tryed, as you can see, we have tryed everything.
Now you see that the rosary of lame excuses that they hae put on us has been very motley-as in varied-, and the admins have been throwing the ball from one to another till the final outcome. The motives that have to do with rules can be accepted. Even tho this is quite an exceptional situation we can understand that they want to respect the rules, even tho there are teams taht have weeks of delay in their matches and they dont seem to have had nothing happened to them or the fact that my brothers were in fact able to inmediatly play and with no trouble at all with their new team after having played with us (Wheres the 2 rounds of wait in this case?). However, the last motives have not feel to me strong justifications to kick a team out of a league, by far.
Anyways, Simply giving the thanks to all the fans who have followed to the end. I feel sorry that we can not go on, because we feel that we had a chance to make the playoff, especially after the match against Acer, there was certainly a lot of desire on trying. Also, thank you to the 3 players that were left, that have been till the last trying by any means to remain in the league and thanks to TaKe, that give me the impression to be the only one of the admins i have talked to to use common sense y wanted us to keep going, but i suppoused that being surrounded of so much people, he has to accept what the majority wants.
¡Salutations!
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If you ask me the tournament format was flawed from the beginning. Allowing teams to have mercenaries that aren't really on their team playing for them, letting one player play up to 3 times in one match etc. I just shake my head every time I look at ATC results, I can't even take it seriously.
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On June 11 2013 03:34 sitromit wrote:
Thorzain and Sortof? What's the point of a team competition if you can just randomly recruit as many players from other teams as you want to play on your team?
They said after talking about Thorzain and Sortof they would play with their current 3 players plus the manager(?) or similar, and the admins said because the manager(?) wasn't "good enough", that they couldn't participate.
That part is BS. If the team is in the league, who are admins to decide what quality of player a team has and can use? The team is screwing itself over by using a bad player.
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quite bad for axiom and TL, as theyve been the only 2 teams to have beaten k3 :>
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On June 11 2013 03:33 Waxangel wrote:
Eh, to separate the problems:
1) Poor communication and backtracking from tournament admins: This is terrible, and reflects poorly on the TakeTV organization.
2) Whether or not the K3 survivors constitute a 'real' team and should be allowed to compete: I dunno, this is more debatable, I guess people are going to feel very differently about it.
Exactly.
On one hand, they still had members and were willing to get more for this competition.
On the other, they announced they are closing the SC2 division.
Could of gone either way. But in any case the backtracking from admins is pitiful. Get your shit together TakeTV
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On June 11 2013 03:37 MadJack wrote:
Im gonna make a more accurate translation, as i do speak both languages, pls standby will edit when im finish
Thanks.
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United States33399 Posts
On June 11 2013 03:41 teddyoojo wrote:
quite bad for axiom and TL, as theyve been the only 2 teams to have beaten k3 :>
actually you should feel bad for all the other teams, who have losses on their records due to K3 while Liquid and Axiom do not D:
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Petition to bring Karont3 back to ATC anywhere ?
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
I actually think this is the right call.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On June 11 2013 03:46 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 03:41 teddyoojo wrote:
quite bad for axiom and TL, as theyve been the only 2 teams to have beaten k3 :>
actually you should feel bad for all the other teams, who have losses on their records due to K3 while Liquid and Axiom do not D:
Especially acer they'd be in a much better shape if it wasn't for that loss to zombie K3 and an angry socke.
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Well if K3 wanted to be taken seriously (and wanted to actually try to keep going as a team) they would have tried to find 1-2 completely new players for their team. There is a good amount of unsigned talent out there, and they seem to already have a good lineup (beating ACER 5-3 is sick without their 2 stars).
Asking players from other teams to play for them takes all credibility away from anything they would have accomplished, so either way I feel it was a poor choice. If they are planning on disbanding after this or something I guess it would be ok because they wouldn't care, but I feel it would have been a good time for them to start looking for actual signings to round out their roster again.
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On June 11 2013 03:37 MadJack wrote:
Im gonna make a more accurate translation, as i do speak both languages, pls standby will edit when im finish
wow so fast.. 
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The most ridiculous part is the whole "Thorzain and Sortof too good ... but manager is too bad" part. How can you even convince people as illogical as that?
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I always wonder how "professionell" all these admins in those tournaments are, they are always complaints etc. I think some kinds of briefings would fix those things.
But I think kicking them out was right, it is really hard to root for a "team" that isn't a team but mercenaries.
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If you think about it, it would be understandable if the players JOINED K3 but there can only be 1 joker so taking thorzain and sortof makes absolutely no sense. On the other hand they could let them play it out with 3 players but what if they all lose, the clan war looks just silly when they have no player for the last match.
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On June 11 2013 03:48 Zealously wrote:
I actually think this is the right call.
I agree in principle, but it should have been the decision from the start. If the admins said outright, at the start "sorry you just can't play anymore, you dont have a real team" then I would be fine with it. But to tell the exK3 that they can play, find new players and its all cool and then to change their minds is just bad.
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So what is the definition of an ideal time exactly?
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On June 11 2013 03:50 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:
Well if K3 wanted to be taken seriously (and wanted to actually try to keep going as a team) they would have tried to find 1-2 completely new players for their team. There is a good amount of unsigned talent out there, and they seem to already have a good lineup (beating ACER 5-3 is sick without their 2 stars).
Asking players from other teams to play for them takes all credibility away from anything they would have accomplished, so either way I feel it was a poor choice. If they are planning on disbanding after this or something I guess it would be ok because they wouldn't care, but I feel it would have been a good time for them to start looking for actual signings to round out their roster again.
Might want to read the whole text cause that is exactly what they tried to do but it was a no go.
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United States33399 Posts
On June 11 2013 03:50 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:
Well if K3 wanted to be taken seriously (and wanted to actually try to keep going as a team) they would have tried to find 1-2 completely new players for their team. There is a good amount of unsigned talent out there, and they seem to already have a good lineup (beating ACER 5-3 is sick without their 2 stars).
Asking players from other teams to play for them takes all credibility away from anything they would have accomplished, so either way I feel it was a poor choice. If they are planning on disbanding after this or something I guess it would be ok because they wouldn't care, but I feel it would have been a good time for them to start looking for actual signings to round out their roster again.
they tried this
"After this, we tried to propose several solutions. The first was to continue doing one or two signings of players who were completely teamless, so that we would be a team of teamless players + 1 joker: Socke. This, in my point of view, does not contradict any league rule. However, they also told us that it is not possible, since it does not meet the league admins' definition of an "ideal" team and we weren't a team / organization really"
please read before posting
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On June 11 2013 03:54 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 03:48 Zealously wrote:
I actually think this is the right call. I agree in principle, but it should have been the decision from the start. If the admins said outright, at the start "sorry you just can't play anymore, you dont have a real team" then I would be fine with it. But to tell the exK3 that they can play, find new players and its all cool and then to change their minds is just bad.
Yeah, of course doing a 180 in the middle of negotiations is a bad call, and it makes the organisers look bad as well. But K3 isn't a team any more, and if they disband in the middle of the season and can't bring enough players to the team league without bringing in players from other teams, then I don't think they should be playing. All the "buts" and "ifs" makes the situation look really bad like you say, though.
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On June 11 2013 03:46 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 03:41 teddyoojo wrote:
quite bad for axiom and TL, as theyve been the only 2 teams to have beaten k3 :>
actually you should feel bad for all the other teams, who have losses on their records due to K3 while Liquid and Axiom do not D:
Hey TL would be getting their spot if they were to drop out, no? o; No, I'm not saying Victor would be one of the guys/gals to dispute this with the admins.
On June 11 2013 03:57 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 03:54 emythrel wrote:On June 11 2013 03:48 Zealously wrote:
I actually think this is the right call. I agree in principle, but it should have been the decision from the start. If the admins said outright, at the start "sorry you just can't play anymore, you dont have a real team" then I would be fine with it. But to tell the exK3 that they can play, find new players and its all cool and then to change their minds is just bad. Yeah, of course doing a 180 in the middle of negotiations is a bad call, and it makes the organisers look bad as well. But K3 isn't a team any more, and if they disband in the middle of the season and can't bring enough players to the team league without bringing in players from other teams, then I don't think they should be playing. All the "buts" and "ifs" makes the situation look really bad like you say, though.
It's not like this is a legitimate league to begin with and that's why I say you should just let the boys play it out with the guys who belonged to that team. Let Mouz let the two brothers play out a couple more games. I see nothing wrong with it. Heck they can even wear their mouz tags in the games to promote themselves. It would be a small victory. It's not like they're tied down to that other organization anymore. They can just name it something else. Let it be over with.
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getting thorzain and sortof to play for karont3 would have been silly, especially since their respective teams had already tried to qualify. it's a huge pity seeing the hardwork of players like Socke, viPro, Ryo and LoLvsxD go to waste, but it wasn't an entirely condemnable decision especially since Karont3 publicly said that they were closing their SC2 division. Having a ragtag group of players (without their two heavy hitters) in a team league of this caliber (being the only offline Western team league), would have been....not so nice..
What I think should be done for these kind of team leagues, is have a transfer window wherein teams can bring in new players, trade players etc.
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I don't think it's a bad call, but it sounds like it could have been handled a lot better by the TaKeTV admins.
Just a shame that Karont3 had to disband to begin with.
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I dont think any league is in a position to judge the players the team decide to bring. If they ask Ryo to play, then there should be no problem.
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I never understood why tourney admins are always such hard asses. I do understand they have to carefully manage sponsorship image and money. At the same it doesn't take much to use some damn common sense and just allow k3 to sign new players and continue your tournament. If anything this is now hurting their reputation moreso.
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For sure this is the right decision*. Bringing in Sortof and Thorzain is a ridiculous idea, 2 players + 3 jokers. The manager playing would result in any game he played being a walkover for his opponent (i may be wrong, i dont know if the manager is a former pro, very high masters, etc?)
*The only situation i can agree with and think K3 should of been allowed to do to continue in the league, is quickly signing 2 fully teamless players to the team so they would continue as 4 K3 players + Socke as the joker.
Whatever our opinion is, it seems apparent that the communication between and with the admins was not good enough.
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Personally I would love to see Karont3 continue to play. Forcing a team out of a league is pretty bad imo considering that they played halfway through and are dedicated to continue to play. The Starcraft 2 community has always preach about supporting each other but TakeTV just booted a team out without accommodation. Why should we as viewers support a league who's admins are not being understanding (old kespa all over again). If Karont3 not allow to sign new players then let them use their manager (if the manager is bad, that's on the team). It's 10x better than kicking a team out of the league halfway through.
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On June 11 2013 04:01 Floobie wrote:
For sure this is the right decision*. Bringing in Sortof and Thorzain is a ridiculous idea, 2 players + 3 jokers. The manager playing would result in any game he played being a walkover for his opponent (i may be wrong, i dont know if the manager is a former pro, very high masters, etc?)
*The only situation i can agree with and think K3 should of been allowed to do to continue in the league, is quickly signing 2 fully teamless players to the team so they would continue as 4 K3 players + Socke as the joker.
Whatever our opinion is, it seems apparent that the communication between and with the admins was not good enough.
Anyone remember WGTour Clan League games? I remember us having to use Managers sometimes because a lot of our boys couldn't show up on certain dates. lol Fun times! Poor Ash and James. They won a few times though, haha.
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United States33399 Posts
On June 11 2013 04:01 Floobie wrote:
For sure this is the right decision*. Bringing in Sortof and Thorzain is a ridiculous idea, 2 players + 3 jokers. The manager playing would result in any game he played being a walkover for his opponent (i may be wrong, i dont know if the manager is a former pro, very high masters, etc?)
*The only situation i can agree with and think K3 should of been allowed to do to continue in the league, is quickly signing 2 fully teamless players to the team so they would continue as 4 K3 players + Socke as the joker.
Whatever our opinion is, it seems apparent that the communication between and with the admins was not good enough.
iirc xeris played for fnatic a few times when he was their manager :D
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How exactly is your SC2 division closed down if you're trying to compete in a team league still?
I think ATC is in the right; having a team that doesn't exist get into the playoffs would've made the tournament look a lot less professional. Still, the admins should have come to a unanimous decision. It makes them look about as unprofessional to have these different rulings coming down, and it's just mean to jerk these players and managers around like that
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On June 11 2013 04:04 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 04:01 Floobie wrote:
For sure this is the right decision*. Bringing in Sortof and Thorzain is a ridiculous idea, 2 players + 3 jokers. The manager playing would result in any game he played being a walkover for his opponent (i may be wrong, i dont know if the manager is a former pro, very high masters, etc?)
*The only situation i can agree with and think K3 should of been allowed to do to continue in the league, is quickly signing 2 fully teamless players to the team so they would continue as 4 K3 players + Socke as the joker.
Whatever our opinion is, it seems apparent that the communication between and with the admins was not good enough. iirc xeris played for fnatic a few times when he was their manager :D
Ryo also played for Karont3 once. I think it was in IPTL.
http://aligulac.com/players/1797-Ryo/results/
Against NSHoSeo even, Brave was too good for him.
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On June 11 2013 04:05 DavoS wrote:
How exactly is your SC2 division closed down if you're trying to compete in a team league still?
I think ATC is in the right; having a team that doesn't exist get into the playoffs would've made the tournament look a lot less professional. Still, the admins should have come to a unanimous decision. It makes them look about as unprofessional to have these different rulings coming down, and it's just mean to jerk these players and managers around like that
The clan Karont3 has closed down its SC2 division, the players and the manager (ex-Karont3) wanted to continue. It happens pretty often in teamgames (e.g. Counter-Strike).
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Fairness sacrificed for popularity, same shit different day.
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People on here keep saying that the Manager is not good enough to play but that's up to the team to decide. If you give a team a choice between forfeit or send out their player worst player, any competitive team would pick the latter. You're punishing a team who are trying their best to compete regardless of the situation.
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On June 11 2013 04:04 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 04:01 Floobie wrote:
For sure this is the right decision*. Bringing in Sortof and Thorzain is a ridiculous idea, 2 players + 3 jokers. The manager playing would result in any game he played being a walkover for his opponent (i may be wrong, i dont know if the manager is a former pro, very high masters, etc?)
*The only situation i can agree with and think K3 should of been allowed to do to continue in the league, is quickly signing 2 fully teamless players to the team so they would continue as 4 K3 players + Socke as the joker.
Whatever our opinion is, it seems apparent that the communication between and with the admins was not good enough. iirc xeris played for fnatic a few times when he was their manager :D
We've all been there. ^^
On June 11 2013 04:05 DavoS wrote:
How exactly is your SC2 division closed down if you're trying to compete in a team league still?
I think ATC is in the right; having a team that doesn't exist get into the playoffs would've made the tournament look a lot less professional. Still, the admins should have come to a unanimous decision. It makes them look about as unprofessional to have these different rulings coming down, and it's just mean to jerk these players and managers around like that
They're doing it on their own. They should just change the name of the team for a few more weeks so people don't get bothered by it because they have no affiliation to K3 anymore.
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On June 11 2013 03:34 sitromit wrote:
Thorzain and Sortof? What's the point of a team competition if you can just randomly recruit as many players from other teams as you want to play on your team?
This is basically it. However, it brings up the problem of hiring new players for their own team period. What if players drop out, get sick/injured, or quit? Do they then just forfeit their spot?
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On June 11 2013 04:28 Mortal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 03:34 sitromit wrote:
Thorzain and Sortof? What's the point of a team competition if you can just randomly recruit as many players from other teams as you want to play on your team?
This is basically it. However, it brings up the problem of hiring new players for their own team period. What if players drop out, get sick/injured, or quit? Do they then just forfeit their spot?
That is pretty much what happens in every other sport if you can't field a full team. Even is weird sports like sailing, you aren't able to sail without a full crew(yes, there is an advantage to sailing with fewer people if you can pull it off).
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hmmm... if that text is accurate, according to the admin thorzain and sortof are not eligble to play for another team for 2 match days because their teams participated in the ATC qualifiers. Lets ignore the max 1 mercenary rule for now because apparently that wasn't used as reasoning.
By that ruling, Vortix and Lucifron should definitely not be able to play for mousesports for 2 matchdays - unless that rule only applies to mercenaries - mousesports didnt use them in week 10, lets see what week 11 brings.
Not allowing thorzain and sortof on the base of having maximum 1 mercenary is understandable, but not allowing the to continue with ryo is bad form, he participated as player in other teamleagues before so he definitely qualifies as (maybe weak) player. Especially given that it the 2nd round just now starts it would distort the league way less than removing them.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Yeah, ATC should've seen this coming and figured out an answer immediately. Boo on them for not being on top of the ball, ATC implications were among the first things I thought of when VortiX and LucifroN left.
But there's no way you can keep playing in the tournament with five random guys from five different teams, it's just real weird. The right decision was made, imo, but the communication was certainly lacking.
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Should also mention that they tried to include Ryo ( ex-Karont3 starcraft manager and older brother of LucifroN and Vortix ) in the team for ATC but he wasn't allowed to do so.
Source :
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On June 11 2013 03:46 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 03:41 teddyoojo wrote:
quite bad for axiom and TL, as theyve been the only 2 teams to have beaten k3 :>
actually you should feel bad for all the other teams, who have losses on their records due to K3 while Liquid and Axiom do not D:
id assume now that k3 is out every team gets a win against them?
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I'm going to have to side with K3 on this one. TakeTV did WAY too much backtracking and turned down entirely reasonable solutions to the issue, instead electing to simply boot K3 from the league.
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Thats pretty harsh and unfair for K3...maybe its not right to bring in other players from a different team, but as the admins said first its no problem to bring in teamless fresh players or even to continue down 2 players. And they have proven to beat acer even without Luci and Vortix so it seems like some shady buisiness going on there to get them out of the way for other teams benefit.
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Maybe you should wait judging until you heared the other side of the story?
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On June 11 2013 04:52 tree.hugger wrote:
Yeah, ATC should've seen this coming and figured out an answer immediately. Boo on them for not being on top of the ball, ATC implications were among the first things I thought of when VortiX and LucifroN left.
But there's no way you can keep playing in the tournament with five random guys from five different teams, it's just real weird. The right decision was made, imo, but the communication was certainly lacking.
from what I understand one of the solutions was to keep playing with ryo/lolvsxd/vipro/socke(the merc) . So 3 players from former karont3 (equal to slayers or other disbanded teams finishing team leagues) and their joker they used in accordance to the rules. I dont really get why this was denied especially.
I hope the results of round 1 are not removed and just round 2 is a walkover for all teams.
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Finally Thanks god.
It was a disgrace if they would be able to continue tbh.
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This is a really dumb decision. If a team loses two of their players why shouldn't they be able to replace them. If the rules are like this I sure hope that mouz can't use Lucifron and Vortix in any of their clanwars. How should I as a viewer view ATC as a legitimate league if they let the second place team drop out mid season because they are too stupid to have proper rules or come up with a good solution by themselves. The whole format was pretty stupid from the beginning so it's no surprise really.
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On June 11 2013 04:52 tree.hugger wrote:
Yeah, ATC should've seen this coming and figured out an answer immediately. Boo on them for not being on top of the ball, ATC implications were among the first things I thought of when VortiX and LucifroN left.
But there's no way you can keep playing in the tournament with five random guys from five different teams, it's just real weird. The right decision was made, imo, but the communication was certainly lacking.
Yeah, I feel there should have been a decision (or at least discussion) when Krant3 lost 2 members. I also understand (although not necessarily agree with) most of the admin decisions EXCEPT to kick ex-krant3 out without letting their manager play (I don't know the whole rule book but it doesn't appear to even bend any).
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On June 11 2013 04:43 TBO wrote:
hmmm... if that text is accurate, according to the admin thorzain and sortof are not eligble to play for another team for 2 match days because their teams participated in the ATC qualifiers. Lets ignore the max 1 mercenary rule for now because apparently that wasn't used as reasoning.
By that ruling, Vortix and Lucifron should definitely not be able to play for mousesports for 2 matchdays - unless that rule only applies to mercenaries - mousesports didnt use them in week 10, lets see what week 11 brings.
Not allowing thorzain and sortof on the base of having maximum 1 mercenary is understandable, but not allowing the to continue with ryo is bad form, he participated as player in other teamleagues before so he definitely qualifies as (maybe weak) player. Especially given that it the 2nd round just now starts it would distort the league way less than removing them.
I was under the impression that it was at playoffs from the original post but it appears as though they're only just passed the halfway point? Meh.
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i think i can "fix" the translation a little bit.
On June 11 2013 03:21 SinCitta wrote:http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1rkohalDisclaimer: I don't speak a word of Spanish. I tried to make any sense of what Google Translate told me, which works okay for most of the time between European languages. But there are probably wrongly translated statements in there. It would be nice if a Spanish speaking person could correct me. Show nested quote +
We were kicked out of the Acer TeamStory Cup.
First a little background. As you know, following the departure of LucifroN and VortiX from Karont3 and the subsequent closure of the SC2 section, the remaining members of the team decided to stay together playing in the competition. We played out our next match against Acer and we and won 5-3. This allowed us to go second in the league with 6 wins and 2 losses, after playing against every team in eight playdays (exactly half).
So far so normal. Once the game against Acer was done I ask the admin with which we communicate regularly whether we could make 1 or 2 signings to regain a 5 player roster as it was the number of players that we had before the departure of my brothers, and the minimum required by the league is 4. At that time we had only 3 players: LoLvsxD, VIPRO and Socke. Making 2 signings would at least have maintained 60% of the original team. At first the admin said yes, we can sign all the players we want with a single constraint: if the ATC had played with another team we had to wait two days (T/N playdays?) to play with us. He said to me that he would talk to the rest but that there should not be a problem , and tells me to talk to TaKe (the boss of TakeTV) to confirm. The next day, I talked to TaKe and he confirmed me, and asked me to tell who we signed as soon as possible and under what name we want to compete from then on. We started looking for players and, after a couple of days and after asking many players and teams sortof Thorzain and joined us (with the consent of EG and WW). This was ideal as we replaced a terran and zerg players from the same races, while also keeping the original number of players on the team.
Once the team was formed, I returned to speak to TaKe who gave me the OK and refered me to another admin, other than the first, to give him all the info to post the changes on the website. To our surprise, this second admin tells me for the first time that NO, we can't have these new players, as their teams played the qualifiers for the ATC and therefore would not be eligible. At that time we said that the first admin did not tell us anything, and we already had the OK of TaKe. Furthermore, I said that we had been moving to contact players and their teams and had the OK from everyone (TFunk and SortOf and their teams) also, EG and WW didnt play the actual league (only tuq qualis i assume). He does not budge (despite being contradicting his own boss) and asks me to wait for one day, so he could talk to TaKe and other TakeTV admins.
The next day, I return to speak to the admin that FIRST said NO and now he said yes, we can play with those signings: "Word of TaKe" he says. Then the admin sends a mail that informs all managers of all the teams about the changes, hoping that theycan live with it in some way" and hopes to "accept this decision, which has been very difficult to make ". In this mail I thought the admin was reporting something that he didnt agree. After the mail, the managers of two teams who play the league answer by saying that it's not okay, it's against the rules since we are not a real team and also would be playing with 3 jokers. I tell them that's true, but we just tried to stay in the league with the same number of players we had before and even with players of the same race, so that the league can continue with as few changes as possible. However, they are still on their heels, giving rise to some other team will join the protests and that the admin changes his mind again.
Now the head admin of TakeTV appears and we're speaking about the subject with him. He tells us it is impossible to go on with these two signings. We tried to continue to speak but it was his final decision, so I finally had to tell sortof and Thorzain they couldn't play. Some teams proposed that the league could continue with allowing everyone to revive a player on each playday so that we could finish the league with 3 players. Quickly, the admins and some teams discarded the solution, clinging to the existing revive number rule of per season (which is 2).
After this, we tried to propose several solutions. The first was to continue doing one or two signings of players who were completely teamless, so that we would be a team of teamless players + 1 joker: Socke. This, in my point of view, does not contradict any league rule. However, they also told us that it is not possible, since it does not meet the league admins' definition of an "ideal" team and we weren't a team / organization really. To that we responded to a group of people without team that got together to play the league, having played most of them eight days and have always strictly complied schedules and keeping the same manager, could play quietly with the obligations of the league as the other teams, as we had done so far. But nothing, no way. We decided to propose another solution: continue to do without signings and additional revives, using me as the 4th player, so we would not give a defwin in each match. The same four people who had played under the tag of Karont3, unchanged, except for a name change. In this new proposal, the response was that they could not do that because "a match of a professional player vs Ryo would not be interesting for spectators and would be unfair" and therefore we did not have enough players to continue.
After that we tried to follow up by explaining them that it was better to not disappear from the league after finishing second, forfeiting all our previous matches and leaving the league with a team less midseason. In addition, we were the same as we had been throughout the league, we had met every team once, and we wanted to continue even with no signings, since our 3 players were eager to continue and we could have even reached the final as could be seen with our win against Acer. After speaking with the head admin for the last time, he said that in a few hours he would give me a definitive answer. After a while, I was given notice that we are out of the league and that this decision was final, because we are not meeting the definition of an "ideal" team for them. At that time I gave him examples of some teams that played in the American qualifier for ATC that aren't professional teams and I asked him to explain how we are different from them. At that time the admin disconnects from skype and and went missing. I have not heard from him since then. Socke and VIPRO have tried talking to them on their own, but nothing, we're out.
My personal opinion about this is that after losing VortiX and Luci, some teams had expect that we would dissapear, which benefits everyone except MVP (the only one that have not spoken about it, to my knowledge) and increased their chances to get into the top 4 (playoffs). Seeing that this was not about to happen, and that we would continue with a good team that even could beat Acer with 3 players, they decided to put pressure on the admins for us being expelled, and the admins caved in and did their part.At the end of the day, we were the small team.
Its a shame, as LoLvsxD, Socke and VIPRO wanted to continue, but just have to leave. At the end all I asked was to allow us to continue to play as the same we had so far, except with two less players, without breaking any rules or anything special. Simply continue. But as I said, they didnt let us. And not because we have not tried since, as you see, we have tried everything.
You already see that the string of excuses that they gave us have been very mixed, and that the admins have been passing the ball to each other until the final outcome. The reasons that are according to the rules can be accepted. Although this situation is exceptional I can understand they did not want to make exceptions to the rules, even though there are teams that are weeks late in their schedule and it seems that nothing happens, or that my brothers could have played immediately and without any problem with their new team after playing with us (where are the two (T/N play-)days of penalty in this case?). However, the last reasons they gave us had no weight behind them to leave the league without a team.
Anyway, just to say thanks to all who had followed us all the way. Sorry we can not continue, because we believe that there were chances to get to the playoffs, especially after the match against Acer. Also thanks to the 3 players that we had, we have been trying to continue our path in the league, and also thanks to TaKe, which gave me the impression of being the only one of the admins I spoke to who used common sense and he really wanted us to continue, but I suppose being surrounded by so many people you have to accept what the majority says. Greetings!
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On June 11 2013 04:54 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
I'm going to have to side with K3 on this one. TakeTV did WAY too much backtracking and turned down entirely reasonable solutions to the issue, instead electing to simply boot K3 from the league.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. The idea of "an ideal team" is bullshit, and was the main reason for the backtracking done, which is just awful management. The given judgement is unacceptable IMO, and does not take into account trades from smaller teams to larger teams whatsoever. The rules need to be changed to fit episodes like this into a better mesh than just booting the teams.
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France7248 Posts
right call. no point to play in a team league if you're not a team any more with no players
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If you cared about the cup, maybe waiting until it is finished before shutting down your sc2 devision would have been the correct response. Do not get me wrong, I <3 Socke, but you are complaining that they do not let a non-existent team participate. Maybe, If Forgg / Luci / Vortix / Kane / Nony, Do not qualify with there teams/do not have a team next season, they form a racktack team and take over the Spot of MVP halfway through the cup, because their sc2 rooster will have died in a plane crash...that just seems unfair, in a team cup, you want to increase the identification with the teambrand, rather than promote 5 individual players.
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On June 11 2013 03:54 Nerchio wrote:
If you think about it, it would be understandable if the players JOINED K3 but there can only be 1 joker so taking thorzain and sortof makes absolutely no sense. On the other hand they could let them play it out with 3 players but what if they all lose, the clan war looks just silly when they have no player for the last match.
But they could get some free agents.
There are some who aren´t completely n00bz.
At least they could give them time until there next match or postpone that.Who cares about playdays in this league?
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This sucks...
Really bad communication from the admins at Take...
I just feel bad for the players that have just been 'kicked' out of the tournament...
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Communication was bad, but crushing teamleague with 4/5 mercs not even playing in the teams is pointless too.
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As much as I understand the decision not to allow Thorzain and sortof (3 jokers in one team), I do not understand why ryo was not allowed to play as 4th. They would have had a full team and they have already proven that they can win with this roster (even against Acer !). Really disappointing
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Let k3 go out with a bang at least
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That's bad and it reflects poorly on TaKe's admins. But considering how they didn't warn anyone that there was going to be a second round it's not surprising - props to SinCitta to have investigated that.
That being said, it's good for Millenium. They land at the second place ahead of other more beloved powerhouse. TL and Axiom have every right to be pissed though, because they are the only teams who beat K3.
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Unfortunate, but understandable. If it wasn't for all that back and forth, back and forth, as far as the admin decision went, it surely wouldn't have been a big deal. I think for this year's TI, a chinese dota2 team had to re-qualify for the tournament, because they switched their team setup around. Not 100% the same situation, but still, there are similarities.
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No shit the admins sucks, what a surprise. They were horrible in HSC too. "Stephano vs Xlord" ask the players who were spectateting who should get the win blablabla..
k3 forever <3
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Too many lines of communication it seems and thus many ways for K3 to get screwed over. I wasn't expecting them to keep playing current team tourneys when Duran Duran left. It's pretty sour when they put is so much effort to keep play to get kicked out for a small technicality. Stay classy Acer...
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K3 died the moment Luci and Vort signed with mousesports.
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I can see why other managers would agree with the 2nd admin, and how competitively it is kind of unprofessional and rule bending. TaKe is the boss and I like what TakeTV has done for all the events they've run, which makes the decisions they make all so much more important to remain professional. With prestigeous teams with renowned rosters, such as Liquid and MVP, I don't think its unfair to try and keep the competition between "top teams". I am not trying to say that Karont3 didn't deserve to keep competing, but they were no longer an official team; thus defeating the purpose of competing in a "team league". If they found teamless players, it'd be a much different story, however they asked players like Thorzain and Sortof... Although I do feel bad that they had to give up their 2nd place standing within the league :\ it is unfortunate and I understand how the Karont3 players must've felt after working so hard, just to be denied of their placement.
This is a similar situation with all the team leauge Slayers were involved in. Slayers had enough players and they still pulled out because they were no longer under the Slayers banner. So technically the 2nd admin isn't wrong, but if TaKe fully agreed, the bossman himself would've probably said something...
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On June 11 2013 05:35 XaMaXaM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 03:54 Nerchio wrote:
If you think about it, it would be understandable if the players JOINED K3 but there can only be 1 joker so taking thorzain and sortof makes absolutely no sense. On the other hand they could let them play it out with 3 players but what if they all lose, the clan war looks just silly when they have no player for the last match. But they could get some free agents. There are some who aren´t completely n00bz. At least they could give them time until there next match or postpone that.Who cares about playdays in this league?
ya but they didnt they went after already contracted pros...
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How can anyone possibly say that what they did was the "right decision"? At the bare minimum, the team should be able to play with just the 3 of them, or the 3 + the manager for the sake of having 4 players. I'd rather see 3 v 5 than see a walkover. Pretty much common sense. Now, allowing the 3 jokers is a bit "ehhhh" in terms of fairness, but I'm sure Luci and Vortix would finish off the league if asked, right??
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On June 11 2013 06:30 Otolia wrote:
That's bad and it reflects poorly on TaKe's admins. But considering how they didn't warn anyone that there was going to be a second round it's not surprising - props to SinCitta to have investigated that.
To be fair, it was mentioned on the German stream several times by Dennis himself that there would be a second round. But the TaKeTV crew is generally not very good with passing along information to TL, or the international community in general. I have always wondered what the reason for that is. So yeah, there defenitely seems to be some sort of communication defecit...
This whole thing is really tragic for K3. When Luci and Vortix left one of my first thoughts (right after HOLY FUCK THIS IS HUUUGE!!!) was what will happen in ATC now? They were doing so well, and I wondered how long they would be able to stay in the top 4 without Luci and Vortix and now being forced to mainly rely on Socke. But since Socke had just all-killed ROOT and especially after they were able to beat Acer, it seemed that there maybe was still a chance. I thought that maybe they would sign another player, but since they had already announced that they had shut down their SC2 division I somewhat still expected them to just back out of the league on their own.
I get that they're all very busy people, but from the moment Luci and Vortix left K3 to join mouz (and I'm pretty sure that TaKeTV & Co knew about the transfer before it was officially announced) until the moment the final ruling was spoken, was more than enough time to communicate properly, for K3 and for TaKeTV to think about a solution together.
As has been stated a lot already, the idea of adding two more jokers to the team is ridiculous; more jokers than actual players that belong to the team? I find it suprising that TaKeTV apparently agreed to that in the first place. That just doesn't make sense, and I completely understand that other teams and later TaKeTV were against that.
But signing one or two formerly teamless players and abide by the rule of not allowing them to play for an amount of time (2 playdays, I think?), that seemed like a good compromise.
Well, I guess that's that, then. Pretty sad how it went down.
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thats sad for the remaining players and Socke. But if not all participating teams are okay with 3 jokers, then there is nothing that can be done.
And admins should never give a 100% yes alone on such things, gives only problems at the end hehe.
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I think that this is a very difficult situation and i dont approve of the way you want to get dem pitchforks rolling.
Especially because some things arent correct. Vipro is on complexity now so you are left with LoLvsxD and Socke.
You need at least 4 people to compete. You didnt sign anybody new so you can not compete. Having 2 additional "jokers" with Thorzain and Sortof is clearly against the rule and unfair to the other teams. Thats a pretty bad proposal.
The seesaw with the admins was just because they really tried to find a solution that would keep everyone happy and really wanted to keep you in the league. I cant imagine its because they wanted to fuck you over.
If you had just presented 2 new players to the karont3 roster asap, im very sure you could have stayed in the league. But you failed to propose a good solution in time. This state of confusion is also your fault because you were massively contributing to it by already announcing the disbanding of karont3.
So please dont put the blame on the admins that there is confusion.
If you want to go with the cheapest solution possible all the time and just refuse to do the obvious, which is sign 2 new players, then at some point i would be done with it too and say no its not possible anymore.
Its not a situation anybody would've expected and apparently nobody was prepared for that. So ofc theres gonna be confusion.
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There was never an easy solution for this situation. The admins did mess up in not giving a consistent message, but it's a difficult situation either way. It's unfortunate that there are hard feelings going around though.
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Having competent admins seems to be too difficult for most of these foreign tournaments it seems....
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They should not have been kicked out and neither should they have been let to brink in EG, WW or Alternate players
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On June 11 2013 07:18 oneill12 wrote:
They should not have been kicked out and neither should they have been let to brink in EG, WW or Alternate players
It was part of the rules that every team could have one joker, so the Alternate players (Socke) is still perfectly fine.
ViPro joined Complexity, but that shouldn't make any difference. He was still an original player in the team league. Other team leagues have allowed teams to keep using a player till the end of the tournament. K3 doesn't need to exist for the same players to play. In the end, it's the matches that matter.
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Maybe I'm missing something, but is there a reason Luci and Vortix didn't want to continue playing in this league for K3? (and no, being out of the team is not a reason, a team consists of players, the players combined do the work, not the team-entity.)
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Why dont they still use luci and vortix?
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To repeat what's been said several times, there are many reasons why Karont3 might have been kicked out, but the way it was handled suggests that somebody (an admin and/or teams) were just hellbent on getting them kicked out by any means necessary. If them no longer being a team was an issue, then it should have stopped right there. Instead, they were given fake conditions that were changed every time they were met.
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On June 11 2013 07:42 Jerubaal wrote:
To repeat what's been said several times, there are many reasons why Karont3 might have been kicked out, but the way it was handled suggests that somebody (an admin and/or teams) were just hellbent on getting them kicked out by any means necessary. If them no longer being a team was an issue, then it should have stopped right there. Instead, they were given fake conditions that were changed every time they were met.
Now wait a minute. Has Take's organization released a statement yet? We need to hear both sides of the story before we conclude that the tournament was out to get K3.
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an official statement would be nice indeed.
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So you beat Acer in their own Teamstory Cup after you lost your two best players...
And now you're wondering why they kicked you out of the league?
But seriously, this could have been handled a lot better. When Luci and Vortix left, this should have been the number 1 concern for the ATC, and it should have been dealt with immediately.
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I think it is a messy situation. The admin from the get-go should have confered with other experts, probably saying no from the get go, rather than telling them to make an ad-hoc team, which is no good as is.
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It was definitely poorly handled by TakeTV and the admins. But in the end the result was correct and I don't think Karont3 should be allowed to get additional jokers or more players from other teams to keep competing. Imo the only way they could've stayed in the league was by signing 2 or 3 new players since the team only consists of LolvsxD (and Socke as joker).
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My own two cents:
1. In these cases, it's always easy to blame the admins. But most of them do it voluntarily without prior experience and unpaid (99% certain that's the case for TakeTV), except those that are paid to do other stuff as well. And there aren't such things as training courses and such.
2. The complete rules for every tournament and league where money is involved must be publically available in its entirety. Can we as an industry just move forward and do this already? Team disbandments, roster changes, player changes etc. midseason are more the rule in esports than the exception in the duration of a season, so there needs to be rules for that. There must be a freely copyable industry standard for SC2 rules which every organizer can reuse (and briefly document its deviations if there are ones). ESL is probably the only organization with a comprehensive rulebook, but it is sometimes unclear which version of that they are using (IEM offline rulebook was different than for the online play and was not publically available). MLG's rules are like a website which could fit into two sheets of paper. Never seen the rules for IPL and NASL... or even for WCS.
3. 1on1 Skype convos with admins are a recipe for disaster. Why do so many bad admin stories start with this? Issues should be brought up on a platform where admins can check the decision made by other admins and where the official stance of the admins can be more trusted.
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So, if I understand correctly, Karont3 was closed and the remaining 3 ex-players (beside Luci, Vortix) wanted to enter the second round with a new team as a successor.
They would have either hired a teamless player (eg. Dimaga), two more jokers (sortOf, Thorzain) or let their manager play in order to fill up the roster.
Now it seems to me, the problem is not about the eventual the new players but around the legitimacy of the new team in general.
What makes a team? What happens when a team folds? Can some of the former players (and not even the best of them) just make a new team and demand to be linked to the old team's history?
By what standards? How many former players or managers does it take to be recognized as the official successor? What would have happened, if for example the Duran brother's new team had been unaffiliated with the league as well? Could they have made a claim to place their new team into Karont3's position as well?
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As I see it, initially no one cared about K3 staying alive or not, as they eventually would fade. But pressure from other managers made a difference.
I don't get why the solution involving the manager playing was not accepted. It's not against the rules, and no one should be able to tell you how good or how bad your players have to be in order to play. If this applied to GSTL, we would see some players get banned too, no need for names here.
Is there a statement yet by Take & co? I would like to read their side, but I'm assuming the "it's against the rules" line will prevail.
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On June 11 2013 07:04 Blargh wrote:
How can anyone possibly say that what they did was the "right decision"? At the bare minimum, the team should be able to play with just the 3 of them, or the 3 + the manager for the sake of having 4 players. I'd rather see 3 v 5 than see a walkover. Pretty much common sense. Now, allowing the 3 jokers is a bit "ehhhh" in terms of fairness, but I'm sure Luci and Vortix would finish off the league if asked, right??
i agree with this. i can see other teams having problems with them taking a player or two from teams that are or were in the league, but they should have ZERO problems having the coach play, and maybe even on a lesser extent just letting them pick up two unknown unaligned players. but the part where they wont let the coach who is a part of the team participate so they have the 4 players needed is just a ridiculous ruling. what im guessing is take and the admin crew got too much heat from other " more known " coaches and organizations and caved harder than a folding chair
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On June 11 2013 07:10 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I think that this is a very difficult situation and i dont approve of the way you want to get dem pitchforks rolling.
Especially because some things arent correct. Vipro is on complexity now so you are left with LoLvsxD and Socke.
You need at least 4 people to compete. You didnt sign anybody new so you can not compete. Having 2 additional "jokers" with Thorzain and Sortof is clearly against the rule and unfair to the other teams. Thats a pretty bad proposal.
What I get from the statement, is that the 3 players (Vipro included) tried till the end, and after the failed to stay in the league he left the team. I'm pretty sure they had this base covered if they were allowed to compete.
The seesaw with the admins was just because they really tried to find a solution that would keep everyone happy and really wanted to keep you in the league. I cant imagine its because they wanted to fuck you over.
It's not the job of the admins to make everyone happy but to apply the rules and agree on a solution so that situations like this don't happen. Yes, Yes, Yes, No, Yes, No, NO. This is unacceptable in such a high level competition.
If you had just presented 2 new players to the karont3 roster asap, im very sure you could have stayed in the league. But you failed to propose a good solution in time. This state of confusion is also your fault because you were massively contributing to it by already announcing the disbanding of karont3.
So please dont put the blame on the admins that there is confusion.
If you want to go with the cheapest solution possible all the time and just refuse to do the obvious, which is sign 2 new players, then at some point i would be done with it too and say no its not possible anymore.
Its not a situation anybody would've expected and apparently nobody was prepared for that. So ofc theres gonna be confusion.
If I haven't misread it, after they were told the 2 new players solution was OK (never forget this part please), they were told that suddenly it was not enough, and they tried:
- Change the 2 new players for others not in an actual league team
- Play with the coach as the fourth player (nothing wrong in my eyes, Cella anyone?)
- Play with 3 players (they showed they can beat top level players with them)
If the only solution allowed is re-signing Vortix and Lucifron and rebuilding K3 so that the admins are happy with the publicity, then they should have stated it more clearly.
For some reason, it looks like everyone is so happy that K3 is kicked out, even if they outperformed richer/deeper teams, so don't expect viewers to align with them.
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While it sux they were kicked, i can see why. Allowing more than 1 joker is against the rules. It seems like the admin team tried their hardest to work with the former k3 guys to keep them in without breaching the rules. I think the former k3 guys really need to look at the big picture of things rather than from just their standpoint. They'd probably be less salty about the situation.
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I understand not letting thm het players from other teams but i dnt no y thy cudnt sign free agents
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Damn, this is some bullshit.
I understand that some teams would be nervous of facing Thorzain and SortOf, but I don't think those two are really any better than the original Karont3 line-up.
Really sorry that this didn't work out and the flip-flopping is inexcusable.
EDIT: Will also likely stop watching this tourney now, though I love that Nathanias is casting it and it's been great fun so far.
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This all seems like such BS. If I were an opposing team, I wouldn't want my players having to play against Thorzain or SortOf either. But why would anyone have any problem with Ryo playing? He's done it before; it's not like he's some random guy in gold league.
I don't think it's really about quality of games, either. ROOT is 1-8 in the league with a -22 map score. Are they gonna get kicked out too?
And if this was going to be the decision, why let the Karont3 vs. Acer game go on?
I would really like to see a statement from TaKe or somebody, because it seemed like the ex-K3 guys were still excited about playing and very little about this decision makes sense to me.
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The worst thing that could happen to a league is to have a team drop out. Any other solution would have been better for the viewers and for the league itself.
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Once the admins said "no you can't use your existing 3 players plus the coach", it obviously became NOT ABOUT THE RULES, but about stubbornness, favoritism, and fear
pathetic show from all admins involved, except perhaps TaKe himself, but it reflects INCREDIBLY POORLY on the organization and event!
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Hmm, never thought TaKe would be on the receiving end of pitchforks...
You'd think people would finally learn to withhold judgment before both sides have released a statement on a dispute....Alas
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I'm sure I skipped over something but I don't see a problem with refusal to allow players on existing teams to join them. Allowing that would just undermine the integrity of the tournament. Free agents should be fine as long as it is within the rules of the team league for dropping/adding players.
At the very least if it is winners league style and you can compete with your disadvantaged roster (lacking players) I don't see a reason for the team to be 'removed'. The players have invested a lot of time commitment and schedule altering to be able to participate, to brush that aside because of some unfortunate circumstances is a pretty brash decision.
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lol this actually sounds like teams being embarrassed about getting stomped by a "fake" team.
Too bad for everyone involved though. GL to the players in the future. Hope the tournament gets its shit together because from this it sounds pretty unprofessional.
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On June 11 2013 11:36 leova wrote:
Once the admins said "no you can't use your existing 3 players plus the coach", it obviously became NOT ABOUT THE RULES, but about stubbornness, favoritism, and fear
Why can you not see, that this is not as black and white as you make it?
Again, facts:
First, Karont3 disbanded (gives up it's entry)!
Then 3 former players want to take the old position with a new quickly build team (new name, plus some new players).
But this in itself becomes a general problem!
Because is it enough to have 3 former players to claim to be a successor of a closed team?
Ultimately, what makes a team? Is it the management, the players, the sponsors or the name? I could for example argue that player are not even the essential part, because a team can replace all it's players during the season and still compete, right?
Also, what would have happened if Lucifron and Vortix had formed a separate new team? Who gets the spot then? Are both teams suddenly the official successor? This is not clear cut at all.
So, please think it through, before you accuse others of favoritism.
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On June 11 2013 12:21 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 11:36 leova wrote:
Once the admins said "no you can't use your existing 3 players plus the coach", it obviously became NOT ABOUT THE RULES, but about stubbornness, favoritism, and fear Why can you not see, that this is not as black and white as you make it? Again, facts: First, Karont3 disbanded (gives up it's entry)! Then 3 former players want to take the old position with a new quickly build team (new name, plus some new players). But this in itself becomes a general problem! Because is it enough to have 3 former players to claim to be a successor of a closed team? Ultimately, what makes a team? Is it the management, the players, the sponsors or the name? I could for example argue that player are not even the essential part, because a team can replace all it's players during the season and still compete, right? Also, what would have happened if Lucifron and Vortix had formed a separate new team? Who gets the spot then? Are both teams suddenly the official successor? This is not clear cut at all. So, please think it through, before you accuse others of favoritism.
Kicking out a team from a league, should be the last resort. If the alternative to allowing them to play crippled, or under no sponsor or whatever, is to have a bunch of "byes", clearly you don't care about your viewers, just the teams that are benefiting from the decision.
Allowing them to acquire 2 free agents or letting the coach play is an acceptable solution, even if you think that they are not a team anymore.
The point is, 1st think should be viewers, and in this case it wasn't. Viewers want games, they want good games, and they don't care how you call the team or if other teams are not happy with the situation. And admins failed to do this.
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On June 11 2013 11:41 Bagration wrote:
Hmm, never thought TaKe would be on the receiving end of pitchforks...
You'd think people would finally learn to withhold judgment before both sides have released a statement on a dispute....Alas
That's what he gets for having so much downtime in his tournaments!! ^_~
And agree with xN.07... BYE's aren't cool. There are never cool. Some are unavoidable, but ones like this can be easily fixed by just letting the already handicapped (they lost 2 of their players) "team" play. What even makes a team "official" as in, not disbanded anyway?? As the OP (I'm guessing that was the manager which got translated?) stated, there were plenty of "teams" or "clans" who were less than official compared to K3, so K3 disbanding should not even really be relevant. Ryo is a fourth player, they have four players, seems like they meet the "requirements". And even if they didn't, they should still play because if 3 people can beat 5 people, I don't give two shits whether they have a fourth. No shits given, whatsoever.
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If a team disbands, it disbands. Sad situation but what can you do. Thorzain and Sortoff make zero sense, why not take Innovation and Flash, i'm sure they didn't even play at the qualifiers so they should be fine... not.
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I understand that they did not let K3 play with players from another team besides their joker Socke. Afterall this is a team league and K3 disbanded their sc2 division. Letting the manager play seems not a real solution either.
I would like to wait on a statement from TakeTV about the miscommunication between the admins and K3. You never know what which side understood from the communication before you hear both sides.
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On June 11 2013 17:38 Jarree wrote:
If a team disbands, it disbands. Sad situation but what can you do. Thorzain and Sortoff make zero sense, why not take Innovation and Flash, i'm sure they didn't even play at the qualifiers so they should be fine... not.
Only sc2 section disbands, K3 exists.
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On June 11 2013 17:44 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 17:38 Jarree wrote:
If a team disbands, it disbands. Sad situation but what can you do. Thorzain and Sortoff make zero sense, why not take Innovation and Flash, i'm sure they didn't even play at the qualifiers so they should be fine... not. Only sc2 section disbands, K3 exists.
The sc2 team has disbanded; however you word it, result is the same. The rest is just nitpicking.
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I agree signing Thorzain and SortOf would have been unfair to the other teams. Another problem is viPro having signed with complexity, so that at the moment Karont3 consists of LolvsXD + Socke as joker. And another problem is that Karont3 announced the closure of their SC2 team, so that they officially do not exist anymore.
However, I find that all solutions proposed by Ryu made a lot of sense,
- Signing enough free agents to make a complete roster and/or
- Adding Ryu as a coach-player and/or
- Playing with less players and giving default wins when all revives are used and the roster is exhausted
so at this point it's pretty clear there was pressure from the organization / other teams to kick them out of the league, rather than to try and find a compromise to let them stay and finish. It sucks for them.
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Would be funny if more teams dropped out and then some underdog wins it by default, would put it up there in the hall of fails right next to the time an EG member agreed to split the 1st/2nd place prize money with someone and then the finals was played off race. Go eSports!
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It is not a good situation when a team has to drop out of a League. It is less games for the viewers to watch AND it renders meaningless some games they have already watched. The Organisers need to ensure they do the utmost to ensure that all fixtures in a League are fulfilled. If this means a team has to play while weakened then so be it. Having byes just damages the integrity of the whole League.
Take has done wonders for the SC2 scene and I do not doubt his professionalism and dedication at all, however it seems that members from his organisation have been issuing contradictory communications to Karont3 about what was acceptable or not. It is an unfortunate situation.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 11 2013 03:33 Waxangel wrote:
Eh, to separate the problems:
1) Poor communication and backtracking from tournament admins: This is terrible, and reflects poorly on the TakeTV organization.
2) Whether or not the K3 survivors constitute a 'real' team and should be allowed to compete: I dunno, this is more debatable, I guess people are going to feel very differently about it.
1) is the only real problem I see here, had they been told they couldn't do this straight up everything would have been fine.
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No TL;DR????
User was warned for this post
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If I may quote Anton Chigurh, "If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?" Why wasn't there a solution found, let alone for the second place team in the league?
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it wasnt about the admins , it wasnt about the league rules, it was concurrents saying "no" to the ability to replenish the lost players, to make them get easy default win points, sportsmanship at the best.
If this one admin guy wouldnt have written the letter asking around whether the other teams are ok with it, very probably no one would have complained and the cup would have been normally continued.
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On June 11 2013 21:45 Holo82 wrote:
If this one admin guy wouldnt have written the letter asking around whether the other teams are ok with it, very probably no one would have complained and the cup would have been normally continued. No, please read OP again, it was the other way around. The admins signaled 'ok' and sent the proposal to the others teams, but they would not accept it.
Also, I would like to repost this:
On June 11 2013 07:10 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
I think that this is a very difficult situation and i don't approve of the way you want to get dem pitchforks rolling.
[ ]
You didnt sign anybody new so you can not compete. Having 2 additional "jokers" with Thorzain and Sortof is clearly against the rule and unfair to the other teams. Thats a pretty bad proposal.
The seesaw with the admins was just because they really tried to find a solution that would keep everyone happy and really wanted to keep you in the league. I cant imagine its because they wanted to fuck you over.
If you had just presented 2 new players to the karont3 roster asap, I'm very sure you could have stayed in the league. But you failed to propose a good solution in time. This state of confusion is also your fault because you were massively contributing to it by already announcing the disbanding of karont3.
So please don't put the blame on the admins that there is confusion.
If you want to go with the cheapest solution possible all the time and just refuse to do the obvious, which is sign 2 new players, then at some point i would be done with it too and say no its not possible anymore.
Its not a situation anybody would've expected and apparently nobody was prepared for that. So ofc theres gonna be confusion.
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Why not allow Karont3 to continue? They've always been borrowing players anyway although they lost their 2 best players who've won most of their games they're still 2nd and arguably still in a with chance regardless. I think it's quite disrespectful to just disqualify a team like that...
I haven't had the time to really follow this team league but it seemed like the quality was quite high, quite disappointed to see something like this happen. One less reason to catch up on this when I have the time.
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dont get why the players with ryo could not compete ,,, he isby FAR no noob, sure no pro but ... thats soooo wrong i have to think about continue watching this (i watched mainly because of socke)
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[QUOTE]On June 11 2013 22:28 lord_nibbler wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 11 2013 21:45 Holo82 wrote:
If this one admin guy wouldnt have written the letter asking around whether the other teams are ok with it, very probably no one would have complained and the cup would have been normally continued.[/QUOTE]No, please read OP again, it was the other way around. The admins signaled 'ok' and sent the proposal to the others teams, but they would not accept it.
I don't think u realize how this went.
Once again:
First, everything is fine with taking 2 guys as a replacement. It was ok with the admins, it was ok with take, it was ok with karonte.
No third party involved, Team is ok, Admin / League is ok.
Resolution one: 2 new guys show up, games are played, everything is fine.
Resolution two:
Ater Resolution one (above) was agreed on, one admin, for no reason, starts to message around to the other teams asking whether they are ok with it.
Of course, there are some teams that want the free wins, so they answer "NO"
Now , after this unnecessary and completely retarded (or tactical) Roundmail, with the given (expected) "NO", The event managers have a problem.
So they have no way but to throw Karonte out, and find some "regulation /rule related" reason for this action.
Its a classical PR- or Communication Disaster caused by the guy who decided to write that round-mail letter. (no one can tell if on purpose or not)
Anyone Responsible / Referee / Admin related doesnt require approval for his action. He decides. I want to give u an example what happened, in an easier to understand soccer example.
Team 1 player fouls Team 2.
Referee asks "are u ok with yellow card?" , team 1 (offender) says no, team 2 (victim) says yes.
As there is no agreement on the action of the referee, none is taken, so no yellow card.
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nvm
this situation us just stupid
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It's a pretty sad situation, and as far as I can see, the decision to kick them out is very easily defensible decision for two reasons: first off, due to K3's SC2 section disbanding, even IF the group of players that made up K3's team banded together to play, they wouldn't be able to actually lay claim to the Karont3 brand and organization - technically, they'd be a different team from the one that's signed up and has played before. Secondly, viPro joining col means that even if the first issue was ignored, they have no way to field more than two (maaaybe 3 with the manager, still not enough) players without bringing in new ones.
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On June 11 2013 23:12 Holo82 wrote:
Its a classical PR- or Communication Disaster caused by the guy who decided to write that round-mail letter. (no one can tell if on purpose or not)
I am sorry, but I am pretty sure your opinion is not in line with the general public / fans at all.
You complain about the fact that the admins talked to other teams, but think through what would have happened had they not.
A team would have gotten an exception from the rules just because they sad so.
No dialog, no explanation, no nothing, just the admins going against their own rules.
You moan about a 'PR disaster' now? Imagine the shitstorm they would be in after that.
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I agree with the decision, I mean..if they haven't got enough players to field a full lineup, then they can't compete.
You don't have relay teams in the olympics taking in freelance players from other countries just because they're short a guy.
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On June 12 2013 00:23 Nekovivie wrote:
I agree with the decision, I mean..if they haven't got enough players to field a full lineup, then they can't compete.
You don't have relay teams in the olympics taking in freelance players from other countries just because they're short a guy.
This isn't exactly the Olympics, it's not nations playing each other. It's more borrowing from another club, which I think is no big deal if they're not already participating or so. -_-
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On June 12 2013 00:26 Gladiator6 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 00:23 Nekovivie wrote:
I agree with the decision, I mean..if they haven't got enough players to field a full lineup, then they can't compete.
You don't have relay teams in the olympics taking in freelance players from other countries just because they're short a guy. This isn't exactly the Olympics, it's not nations playing each other. It's more borrowing from another club, which I think is no big deal if they're not already participating or so. -_-
It's still the same principle. How can they represent the team if they're not even on the team? It just undermines the entire spirit of the cup.
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The communication between K3 and those admins is obviously quite sad but to sum things up:
Karont3 closed their sc2 team and they are now wondering why they can`t play a sc2 TEAM cup anymore?
Come on.....
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sad stuff, especially since the players tried so hard to finish the season =(
but i am not the one sponsoring the event so i stay back ~~
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Can't VortiX and LucifroN finish the season with Karont3 ? It would be easier
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On June 11 2013 03:46 DarionSC2 wrote:
Petition to bring Karont3 back to ATC anywhere ?
I would sign right off the bat.
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This is almost as stupid as that time mlg ran (and screwed up) NA wcs.
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It's a shame that they are being kicked out of the league.
I understand that hiring ThorZain and SortOf for the league wouldnt have been fair as Karont3 would have basically been a team composed of mercenaries.
However, refusing Ryo to play in order to fill to lack of players and refusing him to sign 2 recruits to finish the league is totally unacceptable. Shame on the admins and on TaKe.
Sweeping away all the efforts that Socke, LolvsxD and ViPro made so far is also a shame, they made it to the second place and now are unlegitimately disqualified.
Btw : One of the main admin that did everything that was possible to kick K3 out of the league is Kaoru, the Acer's manager, who comments ATSC on the Ogaming's stream. Of cours it suits him, as Acer is down at the bottom of the league right now, with a defeat against K3.
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On June 11 2013 06:43 AyaaLa wrote:
No shit the admins sucks, what a surprise. They were horrible in HSC too. "Stephano vs Xlord" ask the players who were spectateting who should get the win blablabla..
k3 forever <3
Omg did they really do that ?...
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On June 12 2013 01:11 KingMel wrote:
Btw : One of the main admin that did everything that was possible to kick K3 out of the league is Kaoru, the Acer's manager, who comments ATSC on the Ogaming's stream. Of cours it suits him, as Acer is down at the bottom of the league right now, with a defeat against K3.
this is one of the most overlooked issues about this whole thing....they were fine until they BEAT ACER, the guys hosting the whole tournament....and then, hey, guess what, you can't play anymore!
Resolution two:
Ater Resolution one (above) was agreed on, one admin, for no reason, starts to message around to the other teams asking whether they are ok with it.
Of course, there are some teams that want the free wins, so they answer "NO"
sounds like that one guys just REALLY didn't want K3 to play, and did his best to find excuses/reasons to ban them - that means asking every single team about something he knew many would say no to
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Imagine this happened to TL instead of K3. Would the result be the same? I don't think so. Sponsors would be buried with e-mails from angry fans.
By the way, when was the last pitchfork? I haven't been in TL as much as I wanted, and these threads were usually golden.
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I also heard the "Kaoru's a b*****" plenty of time and when I read the post and some teams asking for k3 to be kicked out I directly thought about him, since he is Acer manager and must be pretty influent on the league,his team having just lost to k3 and maybe also making the teams play double the matches so his team would have a chance to comeback?
I understand the admins refusing sortof and thorzain but the thing about kicking them out of the league and refusing every proposition they made after initially agreeing is really dumb.
I was enjoying this teamleague but now it really has a bitter taste...
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The only way is to actually recruit new members in K3, not just jokers. Jokers and meant to be "jokers" not majority of the rolster.....
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So Ryu propossed a lot of stuff that actually made sense to atleast keep the league as legitimate as possible, and the admins just shut him down. Awesome. Meanwhile they look to other side when mouz lucifron and vortix are already playing when there is a 2 rounds deal (and mouz was already late on his matches),Yeah sortof + Thorzain i can understand the "reasoning", but still would had been the best option to keep the team league to continue smoothly after the hit the second place team got.
I do think this is not Take's fault, but the admins, specially because of the first yes from take. But i will just skip this tournament.
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On June 12 2013 03:24 Shinkaii wrote:
I also heard the "Kaoru's a b*****" plenty of time and when I read the post and some teams asking for k3 to be kicked out I directly thought about him, since he is Acer manager and must be pretty influent on the league,his team having just lost to k3 and maybe also making the teams play double the matches so his team would have a chance to comeback?
I understand the admins refusing sortof and thorzain but the thing about kicking them out of the league and refusing every proposition they made after initially agreeing is really dumb.
I was enjoying this teamleague but now it really has a bitter taste...
Millenium's manager said on stream that both Kaoru (Acer) and Bumblebee (Team Liquid) were against the proposed change..
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On June 12 2013 01:14 KingMel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 06:43 AyaaLa wrote:
No shit the admins sucks, what a surprise. They were horrible in HSC too. "Stephano vs Xlord" ask the players who were spectateting who should get the win blablabla..
k3 forever <3 Omg did they really do that ?...
If I remember correctly, the admins were clueless and asked tlo, dimaga and snute to make a call about the game. Obviously, the players were really embarassed, gave their opinion about the game but didn't take (or refused to take?) a decision. Finally, stephano gave up and xlord got the map.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
I can understand not allowing T-Zain and SortOf, but not allowing the manager to play is really really silly. Its not up to the league to decide the quality of individual players in a team, if they want to play a bad player, it should be completely the team's choice.
Also, as wax said, the communication issues are just embarrassing for the organization more then anything.
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Guys from K3 you can't be serious.
I'v read it all, and it's clear you just can't fool around with half-proposals.
You want Ryo to play ? Seriously ? Is this worth of a pro team ? Of course this would kill the show : imagine there is a 3-0 against you, or even a 3-3. You would send ryo vs a pro player ? What would be to say from the stream POV ?
Well, then you can as well recruit in each team 10 casual players (no offense to Ryo, but well, we all have our own part to play, and Ryo's part is definitely not pro-gaming), and use it as a back roster. Let's say your players are involved in other matches, sick, or else, and you get a one man army. The reasoning behind this is just plain stupid.
I agree the worst that could happen is K3 out of the competition. But again : you went to crapy solutions first, like thorzain (wtf ?). If you can't sign new players to play (and even that is suspect in theory since a team has to "close" the roster at some point when signing in) the ATC, well, how pro is that ?
Well i'm really sad for K3 since i loved how they stomped most teams in the ATC, really. I'm not even sure if Luci/vortix will be able to play for Mouse (tough call). But well, you knew it would happen from the start.
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This is now 100/ sure. Nazgul and Kaoru, respectively managers from Liquid and Acer are the ones who refused that Karont3 continue to play in Acer Team Story Cup.
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On June 12 2013 04:31 Glorfindel21 wrote:
Guys from K3 you can't be serious.
I'v read it all, and it's clear you just can't fool around with half-proposals.
You want Ryo to play ? Seriously ? Is this worth of a pro team ? Of course this would kill the show : imagine there is a 3-0 against you, or even a 3-3. You would send ryo vs a pro player ? What would be to say from the stream POV ?
Well, then you can as well recruit in each team 10 casual players (no offense to Ryo, but well, we all have our own part to play, and Ryo's part is definitely not pro-gaming), and use it as a back roster. Let's say your players are involved in other matches, sick, or else, and you get a one man army. The reasoning behind this is just plain stupid.
I agree the worst that could happen is K3 out of the competition. But again : you went to crapy solutions first, like thorzain (wtf ?). If you can't sign new players to play (and even that is suspect in theory since a team has to "close" the roster at some point when signing in) the ATC, well, how pro is that ?
Well i'm really sad for K3 since i loved how they stomped most teams in the ATC, really. I'm not even sure if Luci/vortix will be able to play for Mouse (tough call). But well, you knew it would happen from the start.
You do have some points, obviously the suggestions proposed by ex-K3 all suck, but you must also consider that the only other option (the one which they took) is to remove ex-K3 out of the league and making all matches walk-overs. Now what would be the lesser evil?
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On June 12 2013 04:40 KingMel wrote:
This is now 100/ sure. Nazgul and Kaoru, respectively managers from Liquid and Acer are the ones who refused that Karont3 continue to play in Acer Team Story Cup.
whats the basis for the 100/ sure?
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On June 12 2013 04:49 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 04:40 KingMel wrote:
This is now 100/ sure. Nazgul and Kaoru, respectively managers from Liquid and Acer are the ones who refused that Karont3 continue to play in Acer Team Story Cup. whats the basis for the 100/ sure?
Like all info coming out of the French scene, either Llewellys or Kaoru probably said it on stream.
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On June 12 2013 04:49 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 04:40 KingMel wrote:
This is now 100/ sure. Nazgul and Kaoru, respectively managers from Liquid and Acer are the ones who refused that Karont3 continue to play in Acer Team Story Cup. whats the basis for the 100/ sure?
That's an exaggeration. Basically, Millenium's manager said it on stream. He is probably more trustworthy than anyone who could possibly post here bar BumbleeBee or Nazgul who wouldn't lie on their community website (too much risk).
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This is a really bad situation. Like a lot of people, the first thing I thought about when LucifroN and VortiX joined mouz was the aftereffects on the ATC. About the K3 situation, I think hiring SortOf and ThorZaIN would have been unfair to the other teams. However, hiring teamless players as free agents would have been debatable but for sure the less worse solution as well as the Ryo solution about which the admins behavior has been (if the K3 version is the right one) awful. "Your player is too bad ? He can't play" WTF seriously ?
The main issue is the lack of communication from the ATC admins not only about the K3 situation but from the beginning of the tournament. Pretty much nobody knew about the second round for example. And like some guys said in this thread, it's not the first time that the TaKeTV admins have made bad decisions (Stephano-XlorD case).
I love this cup, we really need a high caliber team-league in Europe but there are too many flaws so far.
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On June 12 2013 04:54 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 04:49 MCDayC wrote:On June 12 2013 04:40 KingMel wrote:
This is now 100/ sure. Nazgul and Kaoru, respectively managers from Liquid and Acer are the ones who refused that Karont3 continue to play in Acer Team Story Cup. whats the basis for the 100/ sure? That's an exaggeration. Basically, Millenium's manager said it on stream. He is probably more trustworthy than anyone who could possibly post here bar BumbleeBee or Nazgul who wouldn't lie on their community website (too much risk).
Oh Seriously we refused Karont3 to continue ? I'm not sure he said the full story once again. Sorry but throwing some kind of bomb w/o the full story is pretty retarded.
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France7248 Posts
On June 12 2013 05:39 Kaoru wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 04:54 Otolia wrote:On June 12 2013 04:49 MCDayC wrote:On June 12 2013 04:40 KingMel wrote:
This is now 100/ sure. Nazgul and Kaoru, respectively managers from Liquid and Acer are the ones who refused that Karont3 continue to play in Acer Team Story Cup. whats the basis for the 100/ sure? That's an exaggeration. Basically, Millenium's manager said it on stream. He is probably more trustworthy than anyone who could possibly post here bar BumbleeBee or Nazgul who wouldn't lie on their community website (too much risk). Oh Seriously we refused Karont3 to continue ? I'm not sure he said the full story once again. Sorry but throwing some kind of bomb w/o the full story is pretty retarded.
We would love to hear the full story and have some official news from the organizers
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On June 12 2013 05:39 Kaoru wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 04:54 Otolia wrote:On June 12 2013 04:49 MCDayC wrote:On June 12 2013 04:40 KingMel wrote:
This is now 100/ sure. Nazgul and Kaoru, respectively managers from Liquid and Acer are the ones who refused that Karont3 continue to play in Acer Team Story Cup. whats the basis for the 100/ sure? That's an exaggeration. Basically, Millenium's manager said it on stream. He is probably more trustworthy than anyone who could possibly post here bar BumbleeBee or Nazgul who wouldn't lie on their community website (too much risk). Oh Seriously we refused Karont3 to continue ? I'm not sure he said the full story once again. Sorry but throwing some kind of bomb w/o the full story is pretty retarded.
And it's also pretty retarded to think the TL poster is restrancripting the exact word.
He said something like the team managers were not ok with Thorzain/Sortof thing.
He even said he didn't know about the kick
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On June 12 2013 06:08 Yhamm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 05:39 Kaoru wrote:On June 12 2013 04:54 Otolia wrote:On June 12 2013 04:49 MCDayC wrote:On June 12 2013 04:40 KingMel wrote:
This is now 100/ sure. Nazgul and Kaoru, respectively managers from Liquid and Acer are the ones who refused that Karont3 continue to play in Acer Team Story Cup. whats the basis for the 100/ sure? That's an exaggeration. Basically, Millenium's manager said it on stream. He is probably more trustworthy than anyone who could possibly post here bar BumbleeBee or Nazgul who wouldn't lie on their community website (too much risk). Oh Seriously we refused Karont3 to continue ? I'm not sure he said the full story once again. Sorry but throwing some kind of bomb w/o the full story is pretty retarded. We would love to hear the full story and have some official news from the organizers
I dont. Stupid drama.
They didnt have enough players anymore, they were disqualifed. Not a big story for me.
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I do not know what was said on the Millenium stream, but I believe some information has been misconstrued. I cannot speak for other teams but I'd like to clarify a couple things from our perspective. While Liquid was never asked to deliver an ultimatum or final 'vote', we did state our opinions in a Skype discussion with the teams and admin present knowing that it would influence the decision. As far as I am concerned Liquid's stance towards Karont3 was sympathetic to their situation and gave them plenty opportunity to remain in the league.
Adding players to the Karont3 squad
Although it is not uncommon to lock rosters in tournaments and sports we were okay with Karont3 adding unsigned or teamless players to their official roster mid-season.
The official ATC rules actually state that you can't change your roster ("A team roster is fix and can´t be changed during a season. Exceptions can only made by an admin"), so we were being generous toward Karont3 in this regard.
Manager playing in matches
We were also okay with the Karont3 manager filling in as a player to fill the final spot. This is a bit of a minor issue, because with viPro leaving for Complexity, it would still have left Karont3 a player short. It was already known viPro was leaving, so effectively their manager filling a spot was not a solution on its own.
ThorZaIN and SortOf
This is what we disagreed with. Our main concern was that Karont3's players needed to actually be a part of Karont3. That meant they needed to be Karont3 not only in ATC, but other competitions as well. If they had signed teamless and unattached players, there would have been no problem. In the case of ThorZaIN and SortOf, it would have been players already playing for another team joining Karont3 only for ATC. It would have effectively been allowing 2 more 'jokers' than the ATC rules already allowed. We thought that this would go against the spirit of this tournament and were against it.
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On June 12 2013 06:33 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The official ATC rules actually state that you can't change your roster ("A team roster is fix and can´t be changed during a season. Exceptions can only made by an admin"), so we were being generous toward Karont3 in this regard.
Aren't there more rules about player changes? Quantic added StarDust as a joker during the season. New players couldn't be added to teams except per admin exception. There will be a lot of whining when VortiX or LucifroN play for mouz now...
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On June 12 2013 07:20 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 06:33 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The official ATC rules actually state that you can't change your roster ("A team roster is fix and can´t be changed during a season. Exceptions can only made by an admin"), so we were being generous toward Karont3 in this regard.
Aren't there more rules about player changes? Quantic added StarDust as a joker during the season. New players couldn't be added to teams except per admin exception. There will be a lot of whining when VortiX or LucifroN play for mouz now...
As far as I can tell the same courtesy to add new players to their team applied to Karont3. I don't see why it would lead to whining, it's up to the admins.
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On June 12 2013 06:16 eronica wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 05:39 Kaoru wrote:On June 12 2013 04:54 Otolia wrote:On June 12 2013 04:49 MCDayC wrote:On June 12 2013 04:40 KingMel wrote:
This is now 100/ sure. Nazgul and Kaoru, respectively managers from Liquid and Acer are the ones who refused that Karont3 continue to play in Acer Team Story Cup. whats the basis for the 100/ sure? That's an exaggeration. Basically, Millenium's manager said it on stream. He is probably more trustworthy than anyone who could possibly post here bar BumbleeBee or Nazgul who wouldn't lie on their community website (too much risk). Oh Seriously we refused Karont3 to continue ? I'm not sure he said the full story once again. Sorry but throwing some kind of bomb w/o the full story is pretty retarded. And it's also pretty retarded to think the TL poster is restrancripting the exact word. He said something like the team managers were not ok with Thorzain/Sortof thing. He even said he didn't know about the kick
That's what I heard too.
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On June 12 2013 07:34 Boucot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 06:16 eronica wrote:On June 12 2013 05:39 Kaoru wrote:On June 12 2013 04:54 Otolia wrote:On June 12 2013 04:49 MCDayC wrote:On June 12 2013 04:40 KingMel wrote:
This is now 100/ sure. Nazgul and Kaoru, respectively managers from Liquid and Acer are the ones who refused that Karont3 continue to play in Acer Team Story Cup. whats the basis for the 100/ sure? That's an exaggeration. Basically, Millenium's manager said it on stream. He is probably more trustworthy than anyone who could possibly post here bar BumbleeBee or Nazgul who wouldn't lie on their community website (too much risk). Oh Seriously we refused Karont3 to continue ? I'm not sure he said the full story once again. Sorry but throwing some kind of bomb w/o the full story is pretty retarded. And it's also pretty retarded to think the TL poster is restrancripting the exact word. He said something like the team managers were not ok with Thorzain/Sortof thing. He even said he didn't know about the kick That's what I heard too.
That's what we all heard. But apparently Kaoru can't deal with the fact that Lwl is interacting with his viewers and not writing a roman.
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I think in the end they did the right thing.
One can argue that the admins should have been briefed better and handled the situation more smoothly, but I can imagine that each of those admins were put in a difficult spot themselves and probably just didn't know how to react properly.
I think it's sad in general that K3 had to disband their roster in the middle of the season of the ATC, I am not familiar on how Clan Management works in Esports but it would have appeared much more nice if the roster would have not been changed during the only event the team itself participated in.
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On June 12 2013 07:39 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 07:34 Boucot wrote:On June 12 2013 06:16 eronica wrote:On June 12 2013 05:39 Kaoru wrote:On June 12 2013 04:54 Otolia wrote:On June 12 2013 04:49 MCDayC wrote:On June 12 2013 04:40 KingMel wrote:
This is now 100/ sure. Nazgul and Kaoru, respectively managers from Liquid and Acer are the ones who refused that Karont3 continue to play in Acer Team Story Cup. whats the basis for the 100/ sure? That's an exaggeration. Basically, Millenium's manager said it on stream. He is probably more trustworthy than anyone who could possibly post here bar BumbleeBee or Nazgul who wouldn't lie on their community website (too much risk). Oh Seriously we refused Karont3 to continue ? I'm not sure he said the full story once again. Sorry but throwing some kind of bomb w/o the full story is pretty retarded. And it's also pretty retarded to think the TL poster is restrancripting the exact word. He said something like the team managers were not ok with Thorzain/Sortof thing. He even said he didn't know about the kick That's what I heard too. That's what we all heard. But apparently Kaoru can't deal with the fact that Lwl is interacting with his viewers and not writing a roman.
Don't exclude the fact that the first quoted guy did a pretty bad summary.
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"After this, we try proposing various solutions. The first was to still make the 2 signs that were not related to any team, so that we would be a team made of teamless members + 1 joker: Socke. This, under my point of view, doesnt contradict any of the rules of the league. However, we were also told that it is not possible either, because the team would not cover the definition of "ideal" team from the admins by not being a real team/organization"
If we believe this, and what Nazgul just said, it's either other managers pressuring, or ATC admins acting on their own (even when some managers were sympathetic towards K3), or both. Really sad in either case.
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So why kick them out instead of telling them they have to play with 3 players?
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On June 12 2013 05:39 Kaoru wrote:
Oh Seriously we refused Karont3 to continue ? I'm not sure he said the full story once again. Sorry but throwing some kind of bomb w/o the full story is pretty retarded.
so tell us the "full story" then!
You were there, you know what happened....let's hear your version!
"After this, we try proposing various solutions. The first was to still make the 2 signs that were not related to any team, so that we would be a team made of teamless members + 1 joker: Socke. This, under my point of view, doesnt contradict any of the rules of the league. However, we were also told that it is not possible either, because the team would not cover the definition of "ideal" team from the admins by not being a real team/organization"
this is still the biggest issue, its purely jealousy and greed/fear that prevented K3 from using a legit team. They had their 3 players, plus Ryo, plus a Joker (Socke)
end of story! .....only it's not, and Acer will suffer for it.
I know that, unless a different story comes out, I for one will actively avoid their tournaments, streams, and events. If you have piss-poor admins and communication, and ban teams to allow your own to advance farther, it's a joke of an event that deserves zero respect
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Karont3 had three players including Socke. They had Vipro and LoLvsxD with Socke being the joker before attempting to add Sortof and Thorzain. Still unsure why they could not play with that core group and Ryo though since that is the minimum required for the league.
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Maybe they should have just kept their players...
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United States615 Posts
Liquid'Nazgul coming into the fray!!!
Really sad about karont3 but I don't see why they didn't try I come into the tournament with 2
Teams like axiom-Acer or EG-TL. Could that have been possible?
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On June 12 2013 06:33 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
ThorZaIN and SortOf
This is what we disagreed with. Our main concern was that Karont3's players needed to actually be a part of Karont3. That meant they needed to be Karont3 not only in ATC, but other competitions as well. If they had signed teamless and unattached players, there would have been no problem. In the case of ThorZaIN and SortOf, it would have been players already playing for another team joining Karont3 only for ATC. It would have effectively been allowing 2 more 'jokers' than the ATC rules already allowed. We thought that this would go against the spirit of this tournament and were against it.
Of course you'd disagree with this as it would give Karont3 a fighting chance and Liquid are already behind in the rankings.
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On June 12 2013 14:59 Gorribal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 06:33 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
ThorZaIN and SortOf
This is what we disagreed with. Our main concern was that Karont3's players needed to actually be a part of Karont3. That meant they needed to be Karont3 not only in ATC, but other competitions as well. If they had signed teamless and unattached players, there would have been no problem. In the case of ThorZaIN and SortOf, it would have been players already playing for another team joining Karont3 only for ATC. It would have effectively been allowing 2 more 'jokers' than the ATC rules already allowed. We thought that this would go against the spirit of this tournament and were against it. Of course you'd disagree with this as it would give Karont3 a fighting chance and Liquid are already behind in the rankings.
You are so smart, seeing through the lines and reading what Nazgul was hiding from all of us. "Following the rules?" More like "trying to save themselves in a tournament they'd already lost."
I'm glad we have people like you on TL, here to cut down chronic liars like Nazgul and tell us all the real truth.
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On June 12 2013 14:59 Gorribal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 06:33 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
ThorZaIN and SortOf
This is what we disagreed with. Our main concern was that Karont3's players needed to actually be a part of Karont3. That meant they needed to be Karont3 not only in ATC, but other competitions as well. If they had signed teamless and unattached players, there would have been no problem. In the case of ThorZaIN and SortOf, it would have been players already playing for another team joining Karont3 only for ATC. It would have effectively been allowing 2 more 'jokers' than the ATC rules already allowed. We thought that this would go against the spirit of this tournament and were against it. Of course you'd disagree with this as it would give Karont3 a fighting chance and Liquid are already behind in the rankings.
You know the scene in Simpsons when they choose baseball teams and one side picks a bunch of star players?
Why not allow Liquid to add the whole IM roster and throw in Startale to make it worth their while. I´m they sure wouldn´t mind playing a game or two in this as WCS does hardly fill their weekly schedule. As a viewer I want to see teams compete and not random players thrown together for the occasion. Of course that is just an opinion.
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On June 12 2013 16:14 Mauldo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 14:59 Gorribal wrote:On June 12 2013 06:33 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
ThorZaIN and SortOf
This is what we disagreed with. Our main concern was that Karont3's players needed to actually be a part of Karont3. That meant they needed to be Karont3 not only in ATC, but other competitions as well. If they had signed teamless and unattached players, there would have been no problem. In the case of ThorZaIN and SortOf, it would have been players already playing for another team joining Karont3 only for ATC. It would have effectively been allowing 2 more 'jokers' than the ATC rules already allowed. We thought that this would go against the spirit of this tournament and were against it. Of course you'd disagree with this as it would give Karont3 a fighting chance and Liquid are already behind in the rankings. You are so smart, seeing through the lines and reading what Nazgul was hiding from all of us. "Following the rules?" More like "trying to save themselves in a tournament they'd already lost." I'm glad we have people like you on TL, here to cut down chronic liars like Nazgul and tell us all the real truth.
I'd like to up-vote this if possible lol. The guy sounds like a conspiracy theorist.
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To sum up :
Nazgul says he agreed to give K3 the possibility to sign 2 free agents, and also to use the manager as the player, and Kaoru doesn't want to give us his version.
So again, why are they kicked out as the admins said that it was the managers that didnt want them to participate anymore ?
Right now, K3 has two players : LolvsxD and Socke. Considering the rules of the Acer Team Story Cup, they need two more players as you can revive the player you want in the last match. Why aren't they able to play with 2 free agents or 1 free agent + Ryo ?
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why didn't Karton3 sign 2 amateur/semi pro players? :x If mouz can add VortiX and LucifroN to their roster, why isn't Karont3 allowed to sign new players?
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On June 12 2013 06:33 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Adding players to the Karont3 squad
Although it is not uncommon to lock rosters in tournaments and sports we were okay with Karont3 adding unsigned or teamless players to their official roster mid-season.
The official ATC rules actually state that you can't change your roster ("A team roster is fix and can´t be changed during a season. Exceptions can only made by an admin"), so we were being generous toward Karont3 in this regard.
By the way Nazgul, it is not the same as sports, because the contract periods are not really specific to any kind of seasonal league, like let's say, football. The license to recruit a few players to finish the league after the hit k3 took was the best solution in a shitty situation. But of course the admins double standards came into play (can't change rosters, allow mouz to use luci).
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On June 12 2013 14:59 Gorribal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 06:33 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
ThorZaIN and SortOf
This is what we disagreed with. Our main concern was that Karont3's players needed to actually be a part of Karont3. That meant they needed to be Karont3 not only in ATC, but other competitions as well. If they had signed teamless and unattached players, there would have been no problem. In the case of ThorZaIN and SortOf, it would have been players already playing for another team joining Karont3 only for ATC. It would have effectively been allowing 2 more 'jokers' than the ATC rules already allowed. We thought that this would go against the spirit of this tournament and were against it. Of course you'd disagree with this as it would give Karont3 a fighting chance and Liquid are already behind in the rankings.
Surprised this hasn't been hit with the red text yet. It's so offensive.
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Sad for K3 and sadder for ATC.
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On June 12 2013 17:35 Nekovivie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 14:59 Gorribal wrote:On June 12 2013 06:33 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
ThorZaIN and SortOf
This is what we disagreed with. Our main concern was that Karont3's players needed to actually be a part of Karont3. That meant they needed to be Karont3 not only in ATC, but other competitions as well. If they had signed teamless and unattached players, there would have been no problem. In the case of ThorZaIN and SortOf, it would have been players already playing for another team joining Karont3 only for ATC. It would have effectively been allowing 2 more 'jokers' than the ATC rules already allowed. We thought that this would go against the spirit of this tournament and were against it. Of course you'd disagree with this as it would give Karont3 a fighting chance and Liquid are already behind in the rankings. Surprised this hasn't been hit with the red text yet. It's so offensive.
You find that offensive?
... smh
But if the mods didn't allow people like Gorribal to be snide and vent like this (as long as they keep it civil) we'd have a bunch more discussion in website feedback about censorship and bias and all that crap. So it's alright. -_-
Anyway I find it suspicious that Kaoru dropped by to call a post in here retarded without really providing any substantial information from his own point of view and with regards to his own involvement in this matter. Meanwhile, Nazgul did share his side of the story.
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I think Nazgul as speaker for Teamliquid and his / their take on it was completely justified and acceptable. I don't see how Liquid did screw K3 in any way. Ofcourse you cannot allow (not even in that exceptional case) players from other teams play for a completely foreign team. K3 could have asked BoguS and Life then.
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Sounds like mods and take fucked up based on this text but personally I don't like the idea of using other teams pro-players as substitutes either.
Sign up couple unknowns and no problem, borrow players that are a class above your own players from other team and we have a problem, imo.
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TLDR
User was warned for this post
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Official statement announced (during the ATC broadcast) for today evening.
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Well this is lame you'd think that in this era of communication professional people would not fail to communicate with each other in this way.. These kind of messes are no good for anyone
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So are all results involving Karont3 invalidated now? Or some teams play a different ammount of matches?
Either way this is big bulshit, and LITERALLY any other solution would be preferrable to this, it makes the whole league look terrible.
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On June 12 2013 07:28 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 07:20 SinCitta wrote:On June 12 2013 06:33 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
The official ATC rules actually state that you can't change your roster ("A team roster is fix and can´t be changed during a season. Exceptions can only made by an admin"), so we were being generous toward Karont3 in this regard.
Aren't there more rules about player changes? Quantic added StarDust as a joker during the season. New players couldn't be added to teams except per admin exception. There will be a lot of whining when VortiX or LucifroN play for mouz now... As far as I can tell the same courtesy to add new players to their team applied to Karont3. I don't see why it would lead to whining, it's up to the admins.
Okay Victor I read your two posts. Does that mean VortiX and his brother LucifroN aren't allowed to play in this tournament with Mouz considering they just joined? If that's the rule about roster freezing then I hope there is no double standard at work here.
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Whoa poor socke vipro lolvsxd. All this hard work for naught. Sigh.
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P.S Karont3 managers I will temporarily join your team for free (or 0,10 € if acer wants me to get paid) if you want me to. Pls PM me.
I have recently got into silver league and i'm skyrocketing through the ranks
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ThorZaIN and SortOf
This is what we disagreed with. Our main concern was that Karont3's players needed to actually be a part of Karont3. That meant they needed to be Karont3 not only in ATC, but other competitions as well. If they had signed teamless and unattached players, there would have been no problem. In the case of ThorZaIN and SortOf, it would have been players already playing for another team joining Karont3 only for ATC. It would have effectively been allowing 2 more 'jokers' than the ATC rules already allowed. We thought that this would go against the spirit of this tournament and were against it.
This I'm not too thrilled about and here's why. The team (if you can even call it now) is no longer with K3. They have no affiliation thus I would change the team name so they don't give them any more advertising/publicity. As for the players and teams who agreed to show their support? This is pretty borderline, but considering EG was nice enough to throw them a bone and Western Wolves aren't even involved in the tournament? In the interest of competition I don't know why we wouldn't allow this team with no ties to anyone anymore play. For a 10k tournament in mid season? I'm not a big fan of double edge swords and to me this sounds like one considering the admin said they wouldn't be allowed to compete even if they found players not assigned to teams.
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On June 12 2013 18:42 Type|NarutO wrote:
I think Nazgul as speaker for Teamliquid and his / their take on it was completely justified and acceptable. I don't see how Liquid did screw K3 in any way. Ofcourse you cannot allow (not even in that exceptional case) players from other teams play for a completely foreign team. K3 could have asked BoguS and Life then.
That's Acer.Kaoru's point too, he just said the same thing in French during the ATC cast. He said that, with MMA in his team, he could get any korean as a merc if he wanted too but there's no point in a clan war if it goes this way.
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On June 12 2013 16:28 KingMel wrote:
To sum up :
Nazgul says he agreed to give K3 the possibility to sign 2 free agents, and also to use the manager as the player, and Kaoru doesn't want to give us his version.
So again, why are they kicked out as the admins said that it was the managers that didnt want them to participate anymore ?
Right now, K3 has two players : LolvsxD and Socke. Considering the rules of the Acer Team Story Cup, they need two more players as you can revive the player you want in the last match. Why aren't they able to play with 2 free agents or 1 free agent + Ryo ?
This sums it up perfectly. Imho the thing is that there is only 1 unaffected team by the outcome of this decision, which is MVP, while the remaining 7 teams are going to benefit from a K3 disqualification.
I am happy to hear Nazgul was ok with K3 signing some free agents to keep them in the league; and I find very strange they were denied even this possibility by the tourney admins (and ultimately TaKe).
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So apparently LucifroN and his brother are allowed to play for Mouz even though they switched teams in mid season. That rule book!
On June 12 2013 22:48 a3den wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 18:42 Type|NarutO wrote:
I think Nazgul as speaker for Teamliquid and his / their take on it was completely justified and acceptable. I don't see how Liquid did screw K3 in any way. Ofcourse you cannot allow (not even in that exceptional case) players from other teams play for a completely foreign team. K3 could have asked BoguS and Life then. That's Acer.Kaoru's point too, he just said the same thing in French during the ATC cast. He said that, with MMA in his team, he could get any korean as a merc if he wanted too but there's no point in a clan war if it goes this way.
This is bush league crap.
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I really believe Vortix/Lucifron should have waited till the end of the season to switch... Would have been a nicer way to go
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Wait - they are telling Karont3 that they cannot add players to their roster who were part of a team that participated in the qualifiers?
Yet Mouz has added Lucifron and Vortix to their roster, both of whom were part of a team that participated in the qualifiers (specifically, Karont3).
This is seriously inconsistent. There went any legitimacy ATC had.
Edit:
Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Adding players to the Karont3 squad
Although it is not uncommon to lock rosters in tournaments and sports we were okay with Karont3 adding unsigned or teamless players to their official roster mid-season.
The official ATC rules actually state that you can't change your roster ("A team roster is fix and can´t be changed during a season. Exceptions can only made by an admin"), so we were being generous toward Karont3 in this regard.
Would anyone be willing to add some insight on the discussions about Mouz adding players to their roster in the middle of the season? Specifically, players who had been part of another team participating in the ATC (since those are the grounds which the parent post claims were cited as to why other players Karont3 wanted to bring in were rejected). Were objections raised and if so, how were they resolved?
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On June 12 2013 21:56 SinCitta wrote:
Official statement announced (during the ATC broadcast) for today evening.
I would just stop the speculation until we have that official statement to clarify the situation.
Right now we just dont know enough.
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This smells like sh**. Let them play ! Why kick them out???
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It´s a sad day for the Acer TeamStory Cup powered by Intel. We have to announce the disqualification of Karont3 E-Sport Club. This step was extremely hard for us, but there was no other possible solution in our mind.
What happened?
Karont3 E-Sport Club closed his doors and disbandend his Starcraft 2 Squad. The remaining Players were ViPro and LoLvsxD. Additional the joker Socke also remains. 3 Players left, 1 of them plays for Team Alternate, 2 without any team, searching for an new home.
Our idea and our solution for the Acer TeamStory Cup is written in the name. We desire a Teamleague. We want wars with lesser known players, nice comebacks with Ace players backed up by team spirit. This is the reason why we made a best-of-9 format. Our target was to get teams with big and deep rosters. At any point in time, we tried to avoid mix teams. We don´t want any "Allstar"-Parties. We need teams, no rosters. Teams for our TeamStory Cup.
Sadly, Karont3 isn´t that team anymore. It´s no team anymore, it´s a roster of pro-players, searching for a new home. We can´t continue with Karont3 cause it fit´s not in our understanding of a professional team.
What were our option?
Just continue with just the remaining players.
This option is contra productive to our understanding of a team. We need at least 4 players for a team-cup, the remaining won´t have them, it´s a too small roster nor it´s a team anymore.
Add to the remaining players new ones.
So we do not want any mix teams - but we accept a roster of players to play in a "mixed"-Team? This can´t be the aim of a team league. This wouldn´t be a team. Also this wouldn´t be fair for all teams in the league.
Add the manager to the player-roster.
This is a solution we discussed way more often. Would this be the best solution? Just add the manager to the roster and there are 4 "players" left. But after we thought about this scenario, what happens when one of the players leave this roster (Like ViPro who´s playing for coL now, yes we were informed about this step before!). What´s up if more players are leaving, to get a contract and to get paid? You have to make sure, Vipro and LoLvsxD are pros and they want a team. Yes a team - no roster to play in a team league. We end up with a mixed roster of players.
We spoke about this topic intern and ofc with all other teams in the league as well. We didn´t kick just anyone. We tried and thought about it all the way and spend a lot of hours to let ex-K3 players play in our Acer TeamStory Cup any longer. But with the leave of viPro, LoLvsxD's "team-search" and Socke as the joker, without any company - this roster of ex-Karont3 isn´t Karont3 E-Sports Club anymore.
We are sad and don´t like this outcome. We would like to say a big sorry especially to the fans and viewers. They played a great season, they are pretty well players and humans. It´s our fault to bring that statement way too late. Blame us for being not that fast, but we tried and thought about so many ways to go on with Karont3. In the end, we think this is the only way.
Farewell, Karont3 E-Sport Club, Ryo, ViPro, LoLvsxD and Socke as their joker.
What will happen now?
• Karont3 will went to the last Spot of the league, regardless of their score.
• Every new clanwar will result in a defwin (5-0) for the other team.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Thanks for the explanation Take, I have added your post to the OP.
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On June 13 2013 01:09 TaKeTV wrote:
It´s a sad day for the Acer TeamStory Cup powered by Intel. We have to announce the disqualification of Karont3 E-Sport Club. This step was extremely hard for us, but there was no other possible solution in our mind.
What happened?
Karont3 E-Sport Club closed his doors and disbandend his Starcraft 2 Squad. The remaining Players were ViPro and LoLvsxD. Additional the joker Socke also remains. 3 Players left, 1 of them plays for Team Alternate, 2 without any team, searching for an new home.
Our idea and our solution for the Acer TeamStory Cup is written in the name. We desire a Teamleague. We want wars with lesser known players, nice comebacks with Ace players backed up by team spirit. This is the reason why we made a best-of-9 format. Our target was to get teams with big and deep rosters. At any point in time, we tried to avoid mix teams. We don´t want any "Allstar"-Parties. We need teams, no rosters. Teams for our TeamStory Cup.
Sadly, Karont3 isn´t that team anymore. It´s no team anymore, it´s a roster of pro-players, searching for a new home. We can´t continue with Karont3 cause it fit´s not in our understanding of a professional team.
What were our option?
Just continue with just the remaining players.
This option is contra productive to our understanding of a team. We need at least 4 players for a team-cup, the remaining won´t have them, it´s a too small roster nor it´s a team anymore.
Add to the remaining players new ones.
So we do not want any mix teams - but we accept a roster of players to play in a "mixed"-Team? This can´t be the aim of a team league. This wouldn´t be a team. Also this wouldn´t be fair for all teams in the league.
Add the manager to the player-roster.
This is a solution we discussed way more often. Would this be the best solution? Just add the manager to the roster and there are 4 "players" left. But after we thought about this scenario, what happens when one of the players leave this roster (Like ViPro who´s playing for coL now, yes we were informed about this step before!). What´s up if more players are leaving, to get a contract and to get paid? You have to make sure, Vipro and LoLvsxD are pros and they want a team. Yes a team - no roster to play in a team league. We end up with a mixed roster of players.
We spoke about this topic intern and ofc with all other teams in the league as well. We didn´t kick just anyone. We tried and thought about it all the way and spend a lot of hours to let ex-K3 players play in our Acer TeamStory Cup any longer. But with the leave of viPro, LoLvsxD's "team-search" and Socke as the joker, without any company - this roster of ex-Karont3 isn´t Karont3 E-Sports Club anymore.
We are sad and don´t like this outcome. We would like to say a big sorry especially to the fans and viewers. They played a great season, they are pretty well players and humans. It´s our fault to bring that statement way too late. Blame us for being not that fast, but we tried and thought about so many ways to go on with Karont3. In the end, we think this is the only way.
Farewell, Karont3 E-Sport Club, Ryo, ViPro, LoLvsxD and Socke as their joker.
What will happen now?
• Karont3 will went to the last Spot of the league, regardless of their score.
• Every new clanwar will result in a defwin (5-0) for the other team.
Good response, unfortunate situation, but maybe the only way it could have gone.
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Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay..
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France7248 Posts
On June 13 2013 01:09 TaKeTV wrote:
What will happen now?
• Karont3 will went to the last Spot of the league, regardless of their score.
• Every new clanwar will result in a defwin (5-0) for the other team.
old score won't be changed?
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I don't know...all that "ideal team" justification is quite fade for disqualifying the ranked 2 team of the league. It's no good for little e-sport team, that are not sustainable enough. Sad.
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On June 13 2013 01:32 PetitCop wrote:
I don't know...all that "ideal team" justification is quite fade for disqualifying the ranked 2 team of the league. It's no good for little e-sport team, that are not sustainable enough. Sad.
I think when all the players from K3 are not actually in K3 team is a good justicifation.
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On June 13 2013 01:20 DjHorsi wrote:
Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay..
Upon further review, TakeTV changed their minds and did not want a group of all stars. Done.
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On June 13 2013 01:09 TaKeTV wrote:
What will happen now?
• Karont3 will went to the last Spot of the league, regardless of their score.
• Every new clanwar will result in a defwin (5-0) for the other team.
i really dont care about all the justification, but this is just plain unfair. all Karont3 games should be nullified.
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On June 13 2013 01:43 kraut wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 01:09 TaKeTV wrote:
What will happen now?
• Karont3 will went to the last Spot of the league, regardless of their score.
• Every new clanwar will result in a defwin (5-0) for the other team.
i really dont care about all the justification, but this is just plain unfair. all Karont3 games should be nullified.
Why all the games? Just the games where there were more than 1 joker.
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On June 12 2013 23:51 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 23:41 StarStruck wrote:On June 12 2013 23:38 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On June 12 2013 23:34 StarStruck wrote:On June 12 2013 23:31 Serimek wrote:On June 12 2013 23:27 SinCitta wrote:
MVP could pick a third a third seasonal revive, too. I think they handle the Karont3 issue by pretending they never participated (wins/losses against them deleted, no transfer period, no revives used against them) I hope there'll be a confirmation of this. TaKe need to communicate about the rule to give back to this league the credibilty it deserves (and so that we can update Liquipedia :p ) To be honest it never really had any credibility to begin with for me anyway. We've seen several teams/sponsors hold their own team leagues already. It's great that they're doing 19 weeks of this for the regular season but I don't think anyone would give much thought to it at the end of the day compared to a lot of other things. On that note, was there ever any incident of a similar or comparable nature with the EG Master's Cup League? I haven't followed that all too closely but I don't remember any amount of drama beyond the -orb- event. No idea. I've paid very little attention to both. I've seen a few matches here and there, but I haven't gone out of my way to watch a lot of it. There was a teamleague managed by someone that was also a team manager at that time. People wanted to have Empire invited to a qualifier for that league. Empire was considered to be the Top 2 team in Europe. The manager said something like "who the fuck is Empire". Long story short, Empire won the next season of the league including a win against the team of said manager.
lol Okay, so after more poking and prodding (I remember overhearing this from a comment on these very boards) apparently players are allowed to not only play more than once but in certain cases they play upwards to three times even if they lost? What the hell kind of league are you running TaKe? I looked it up for myself and what do you know within the first two weeks we saw YugiOh play TaeJa three times and he lost all of them. You have a rule for no roster changes during the season. You ask the teams to have a roster of at least five players (his post is saying 4 -_-) and the ex-k3 roster has 3. Admin says they can recruit and then goes back on their word even if they were team-less and the Spaniards play this week. Double standards man you guys really have to address this. I find it very hard to believe that you wrote and I quote:
We want wars with lesser known players, nice comebacks with Ace players backed up by team spirit. This is the reason why we made a best-of-9 format. Our target was to get teams with big and deep rosters. At any point in time, we tried to avoid mix teams. We don´t want any "Allstar"-Parties. We need teams, no rosters. Teams for our TeamStory Cup.
How can you say that? ._.
*
It's very unfortunate and if this were to happen to a club like TL/EG this thread would be at least at page 20 by now. The ex-k3 don't have a team or any association to anyone. If you had a rule about teams disbanding mid-season then everyone would be on the same page. I couldn't imagine anything like this happening in WGTour. If you allow teams to play the same guy over and over again... and there is no recruitment allowed... drop the double standards please for our sake. In the interest of competition this is just meh. It would have also been a good way to promote those players without teams. I don't know about you guys. I barely paid any attention to this league prior but if the ex-K3 players were allowed back. I will personally watch ever last match they play. -_-
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On June 13 2013 01:20 DjHorsi wrote:
Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay..
Take would have to be mentally retarded to make a statement on that. What is he supposed to say? Yeah our internal admin communication sucks? Or "hey it's taketv remember that one hsc where we forgot the rules?". Besides a sundance "i get it", there is nothing take can say that doesn't let his company (taketv) look unprofessional as fuck.
@Plansix : When the boss of the company tells you it's ok, that should be a 100% decision, and then also having them go through a new admin afterwords to tell them it's gg for them is pretty bm.
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double standards - that really says it all
I appreciate your response TaKe, but you just said the exact same things that's been said before, without addressing the real issues
1) The concept of an "ideal team" is bogus - mouz isn't the same team they entered the tourney with, and the players that ENTERED A TOURNAMENT AND WON should be allowed to keep playing!
2) Minimum players is 4, they had 3 and could add 1(Ryo) - that's 4!
3) Saying that someone isn't good enough to participate in your league, insulting them by saying they would embarrass the tourney/team/themselves - you should be ashamed! To disrespect someone like that is ridiculous, especially a situation like this
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On June 13 2013 01:55 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 01:20 DjHorsi wrote:
Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay.. Take would have to be mentally retarded to make a statement on that. What is he supposed to say? Yeah our internal admin communication sucks? Or "hey it's taketv remember that one hsc where we forgot the rules?". Besides a sundance "i get it", there is nothing take can say that doesn't let his company (taketv) look unprofessional as fuck. @Plansix : When the boss of the company tells you it's ok, that should be a 100% decision, and then also having them go through a new admin afterwords to tell them it's gg for them is pretty bm.
Yeah, I just get tired of hearing the stories of "this guy told me this and when I asked and then later they told me I couldn't" in Esports. It's been a common issue lately and I am just annoyed with the "Well why did you lie to them before?" comments that always come up. Companies can change their mind about ruling(within reason) and when teams are asking for exceptions to rules, they should expect that the answer could change.
Of course, the real solution is for admins to just say "I don't know, give me all the information and I will have to get back to you." It is what I do when clients ask me questions I can't answer. But the "why did you lie" comments are just so petty.
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I wouldn't really call sortof and T-Zain joining those three players an All-Star team either. WW isn't even competing and as for T-Zain I'd say he's around LucifroN's skill level albeit he's on a team already competing. This is just in regards of the dream team concept you were talking about. If there were a rule about a team disbanding and W.O.'s given that was written clearly then there would be no argument. This was very poorly handled. I don't really call one play playing up to three times for a team even though they lost the matches ideal in terms of gamesmanship. It's not very fair. For all we know it could be just one player doing it when in reality a team should only be as good as their weakest player.
On June 13 2013 02:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 01:55 Lorch wrote:On June 13 2013 01:20 DjHorsi wrote:
Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay.. Take would have to be mentally retarded to make a statement on that. What is he supposed to say? Yeah our internal admin communication sucks? Or "hey it's taketv remember that one hsc where we forgot the rules?". Besides a sundance "i get it", there is nothing take can say that doesn't let his company (taketv) look unprofessional as fuck. @Plansix : When the boss of the company tells you it's ok, that should be a 100% decision, and then also having them go through a new admin afterwords to tell them it's gg for them is pretty bm. Yeah, I just get tired of hearing the stories of "this guy told me this and when I asked and then later they told me I couldn't" in Esports. It's been a common issue lately and I am just annoyed with the "Well why did you lie to them before?" comments that always come up. Companies can change their mind about ruling(within reason) and when teams are asking for exceptions to rules, they should expect that the answer could change. Of course, the real solution is for admins to just say "I don't know, give me all the information and I will have to get back to you." It is what I do when clients ask me questions I can't answer. But the "why did you lie" comments are just so petty.
It would help if you started off with one rule set for every team/player. Sometimes it's best to go straight to the big boss to get an answer.
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On June 13 2013 01:55 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 01:20 DjHorsi wrote:
Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay.. Take would have to be mentally retarded to make a statement on that. What is he supposed to say? Yeah our internal admin communication sucks? Or "hey it's taketv remember that one hsc where we forgot the rules?". Besides a sundance "i get it", there is nothing take can say that doesn't let his company (taketv) look unprofessional as fuck.
Something like "We gave wrong information to Ryo and are sorry for the troubles he went through in vain as a result. Steps have been taken that this won't happen again. We apologize to him, the players and the fans."
--
By the way, it's probably not TaKe that issued the statement. It's the account "TakeTv," not "TaKeSen". TaKe is busy organizing the Homestory Cup.
--
For all the others giving examples of player changes in the ATC. That's not really the controversial part of the conversation anymore. VortiX and LucifroN to mouz, StarDust as a Joker to Quantic, Kane to ROOT and probably some others as well. Whether player changes were allowed or not wasn't really the problem. The problem from the official side was that the former Karont3 wasn't recognized as a team anymore, independent of who COULD play or who can be transferred.
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On June 13 2013 02:22 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 01:55 Lorch wrote:On June 13 2013 01:20 DjHorsi wrote:
Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay.. Take would have to be mentally retarded to make a statement on that. What is he supposed to say? Yeah our internal admin communication sucks? Or "hey it's taketv remember that one hsc where we forgot the rules?". Besides a sundance "i get it", there is nothing take can say that doesn't let his company (taketv) look unprofessional as fuck. Something like "We gave wrong information to Ryo and are sorry for the troubles he went through in vain as a result. Steps have been taken that this won't happen again. We apologize to him, the players and the fans." -- By the way, it's probably not TaKe that issued the statement. It's the account "TakeTv," not "TaKeSen". TaKe is busy organizing the Homestory Cup. -- For all the others giving examples of player changes in the ATC. That's not really the controversial part of the conversation anymore. VortiX and LucifroN to mouz, StarDust as a Joker to Quantic, Kane to ROOT and probably some others as well. Whether player changes were allowed or not wasn't really the problem. The problem from the official side was that the former Karont3 wasn't recognized as a team anymore, independent of who COULD play or who can be transferred.
Who did Kane play for before he switched to ROOT in the ATC? If you cannot abide by your own rules from the start then I mean come on man. We even had rules for this kind of stuff in WGTour when players switched. If the rule is rosters are frozen for the remainder of the tournament then it should stick. As for the official statement. They should have a rule for teams that disband and that should have been stated clearly to every party involved.
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On June 13 2013 01:09 TaKeTV wrote:
What will happen now?
• Karont3 will went to the last Spot of the league, regardless of their score.
• Every new clanwar will result in a defwin (5-0) for the other team.
For real ? So you kick a team out of the league, but all the previous results still count in ? Rules seems to be a complete mess in ATC right now. I don't even remember any tournament where the result of a forfeited player/team weren't nullified after his forfeit.
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On June 13 2013 02:42 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 02:22 SinCitta wrote:On June 13 2013 01:55 Lorch wrote:On June 13 2013 01:20 DjHorsi wrote:
Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay.. Take would have to be mentally retarded to make a statement on that. What is he supposed to say? Yeah our internal admin communication sucks? Or "hey it's taketv remember that one hsc where we forgot the rules?". Besides a sundance "i get it", there is nothing take can say that doesn't let his company (taketv) look unprofessional as fuck. Something like "We gave wrong information to Ryo and are sorry for the troubles he went through in vain as a result. Steps have been taken that this won't happen again. We apologize to him, the players and the fans." -- By the way, it's probably not TaKe that issued the statement. It's the account "TakeTv," not "TaKeSen". TaKe is busy organizing the Homestory Cup. -- For all the others giving examples of player changes in the ATC. That's not really the controversial part of the conversation anymore. VortiX and LucifroN to mouz, StarDust as a Joker to Quantic, Kane to ROOT and probably some others as well. Whether player changes were allowed or not wasn't really the problem. The problem from the official side was that the former Karont3 wasn't recognized as a team anymore, independent of who COULD play or who can be transferred. Who did Kane play for before he switched to ROOT in the ATC? If you cannot abide by your own rules from the start then I mean come on man. We even had rules for this kind of stuff in WGTour when players switched. If the rule is rosters are frozen for the remainder of the tournament then it should stick. As for the official statement. They should have a rule for teams that disband and that should have been stated clearly to every party involved.
Kane played for Pulse before he joined ROOT. Pulse participated in the qualifiers.
Player transfers are allowed by admin exception as Nazgul cited. It's a bad rule (because of admin arbitrariness), yes.
Again, they did not allow player transfers to Karont3 because they didn't consider it a team anymore. If they created a new team (with sponsors, website and such) as a successor, I guess they could have played on. But the players were already going into different directions.
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On June 13 2013 02:51 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 02:42 StarStruck wrote:On June 13 2013 02:22 SinCitta wrote:On June 13 2013 01:55 Lorch wrote:On June 13 2013 01:20 DjHorsi wrote:
Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay.. Take would have to be mentally retarded to make a statement on that. What is he supposed to say? Yeah our internal admin communication sucks? Or "hey it's taketv remember that one hsc where we forgot the rules?". Besides a sundance "i get it", there is nothing take can say that doesn't let his company (taketv) look unprofessional as fuck. Something like "We gave wrong information to Ryo and are sorry for the troubles he went through in vain as a result. Steps have been taken that this won't happen again. We apologize to him, the players and the fans." -- By the way, it's probably not TaKe that issued the statement. It's the account "TakeTv," not "TaKeSen". TaKe is busy organizing the Homestory Cup. -- For all the others giving examples of player changes in the ATC. That's not really the controversial part of the conversation anymore. VortiX and LucifroN to mouz, StarDust as a Joker to Quantic, Kane to ROOT and probably some others as well. Whether player changes were allowed or not wasn't really the problem. The problem from the official side was that the former Karont3 wasn't recognized as a team anymore, independent of who COULD play or who can be transferred. Who did Kane play for before he switched to ROOT in the ATC? If you cannot abide by your own rules from the start then I mean come on man. We even had rules for this kind of stuff in WGTour when players switched. If the rule is rosters are frozen for the remainder of the tournament then it should stick. As for the official statement. They should have a rule for teams that disband and that should have been stated clearly to every party involved. Kane played for Pulse before he joined ROOT. Pulse participated in the qualifiers. Player transfers are allowed by admin exception as Nazgul cited. It's a bad rule (because of admin arbitrariness), yes. Again, they did not allow player transfers to Karont3 because they didn't consider it a team anymore. If they created a new team (with sponsors, website and such) as a successor, I guess they could have played on. But the players were already going into different directions.
That's right!
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I think Take simply took the right call.
The only real problem in these rules is the one regarding the arbitrary power of the admin to take decisions on his own, since there is no real rule to cover it. Well it's quite obvious this lack of "rules" on this matter is crucial.
But apart from that, there is no other problem. The principle of the solution is clear.
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On June 13 2013 03:23 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 02:51 SinCitta wrote:On June 13 2013 02:42 StarStruck wrote:On June 13 2013 02:22 SinCitta wrote:On June 13 2013 01:55 Lorch wrote:On June 13 2013 01:20 DjHorsi wrote:
Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay.. Take would have to be mentally retarded to make a statement on that. What is he supposed to say? Yeah our internal admin communication sucks? Or "hey it's taketv remember that one hsc where we forgot the rules?". Besides a sundance "i get it", there is nothing take can say that doesn't let his company (taketv) look unprofessional as fuck. Something like "We gave wrong information to Ryo and are sorry for the troubles he went through in vain as a result. Steps have been taken that this won't happen again. We apologize to him, the players and the fans." -- By the way, it's probably not TaKe that issued the statement. It's the account "TakeTv," not "TaKeSen". TaKe is busy organizing the Homestory Cup. -- For all the others giving examples of player changes in the ATC. That's not really the controversial part of the conversation anymore. VortiX and LucifroN to mouz, StarDust as a Joker to Quantic, Kane to ROOT and probably some others as well. Whether player changes were allowed or not wasn't really the problem. The problem from the official side was that the former Karont3 wasn't recognized as a team anymore, independent of who COULD play or who can be transferred. Who did Kane play for before he switched to ROOT in the ATC? If you cannot abide by your own rules from the start then I mean come on man. We even had rules for this kind of stuff in WGTour when players switched. If the rule is rosters are frozen for the remainder of the tournament then it should stick. As for the official statement. They should have a rule for teams that disband and that should have been stated clearly to every party involved. Kane played for Pulse before he joined ROOT. Pulse participated in the qualifiers. Player transfers are allowed by admin exception as Nazgul cited. It's a bad rule (because of admin arbitrariness), yes. Again, they did not allow player transfers to Karont3 because they didn't consider it a team anymore. If they created a new team (with sponsors, website and such) as a successor, I guess they could have played on. But the players were already going into different directions. That's right!
That's a very bad rule and that doesn't address the other problems I found with your system either. If the admin had simply said what I said earlier which is similar to what this chap has said then there would have been issue with regards to this issue. However, I found a whole whack of issues that sort of mess everything up when it comes to your mandate with the ATC. ~_~
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On June 13 2013 03:48 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 03:23 TaKeTV wrote:On June 13 2013 02:51 SinCitta wrote:On June 13 2013 02:42 StarStruck wrote:On June 13 2013 02:22 SinCitta wrote:On June 13 2013 01:55 Lorch wrote:On June 13 2013 01:20 DjHorsi wrote:
Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay.. Take would have to be mentally retarded to make a statement on that. What is he supposed to say? Yeah our internal admin communication sucks? Or "hey it's taketv remember that one hsc where we forgot the rules?". Besides a sundance "i get it", there is nothing take can say that doesn't let his company (taketv) look unprofessional as fuck. Something like "We gave wrong information to Ryo and are sorry for the troubles he went through in vain as a result. Steps have been taken that this won't happen again. We apologize to him, the players and the fans." -- By the way, it's probably not TaKe that issued the statement. It's the account "TakeTv," not "TaKeSen". TaKe is busy organizing the Homestory Cup. -- For all the others giving examples of player changes in the ATC. That's not really the controversial part of the conversation anymore. VortiX and LucifroN to mouz, StarDust as a Joker to Quantic, Kane to ROOT and probably some others as well. Whether player changes were allowed or not wasn't really the problem. The problem from the official side was that the former Karont3 wasn't recognized as a team anymore, independent of who COULD play or who can be transferred. Who did Kane play for before he switched to ROOT in the ATC? If you cannot abide by your own rules from the start then I mean come on man. We even had rules for this kind of stuff in WGTour when players switched. If the rule is rosters are frozen for the remainder of the tournament then it should stick. As for the official statement. They should have a rule for teams that disband and that should have been stated clearly to every party involved. Kane played for Pulse before he joined ROOT. Pulse participated in the qualifiers. Player transfers are allowed by admin exception as Nazgul cited. It's a bad rule (because of admin arbitrariness), yes. Again, they did not allow player transfers to Karont3 because they didn't consider it a team anymore. If they created a new team (with sponsors, website and such) as a successor, I guess they could have played on. But the players were already going into different directions. That's right! That's a very bad rule and that doesn't address the other problems I found with your system either. If the admin had simply said what I said earlier which is similar to what this chap has said then there would have been issue with regards to this issue. However, I found a whole whack of issues that sort of mess everything up when it comes to your mandate with the ATC. ~_~
It sort of a weird thing to plan for and rules can't address ever situation perfectly. I mean, how you do make a rule for:
"What if a team qualifies and plays, but half way through they disband and a bunch of their players leave. But the rest of their players want to stay on as a "team", but they are all free agents and they want to pull in a few other players from other teams to fill out the roster. None of these players are going to become a new "team", they just want to finish out the season under the same banner. Should we have a rule for that?"
I think playing it by ear is better for this one and just making the calls as they come in, rather than trying to make rules that address every possible thing that could happen. Overly specific rules just end up screwing people over.
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On June 13 2013 02:01 leova wrote:
double standards - that really says it all
I appreciate your response TaKe, but you just said the exact same things that's been said before, without addressing the real issues
1) The concept of an "ideal team" is bogus - mouz isn't the same team they entered the tourney with, and the players that ENTERED A TOURNAMENT AND WON should be allowed to keep playing!
2) Minimum players is 4, they had 3 and could add 1(Ryo) - that's 4!
3) Saying that someone isn't good enough to participate in your league, insulting them by saying they would embarrass the tourney/team/themselves - you should be ashamed! To disrespect someone like that is ridiculous, especially a situation like this
It isn't bogus, mouz is the same..they just recruited two players and removed one. Karont3 disbanded their entire lineup. Two players went to mouz, one player went to complexity, one was teamless, and one was the joker. The explanation makes perfect sense. It's not a team, it's just players playing together. Karont3 could have not disbanded their division, could have held on to LoLvsxD and viPro, and actually recruit new players to their team, but they didn't they disbanded the SC2 division.
They never said they weren't good enough.
Although I do believe they should apologise for their mismanagement of the situation.
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In my opinion TakeTV just falling apart a little bit. Take too busy by playing ladder as well as planning the new HSC...
And other people at TakeTV not that experienced by managing tournements.
Take even has no time for casting- nowadays always some other "new" caster cast instead of him(
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On June 13 2013 05:57 DjHorsi wrote:In my opinion TakeTV just falling apart a little bit. Take too busy by playing ladder as well as planning the new HSC... And other people at TakeTV not that experienced by managing tournements. Take even has no time for casting- nowadays always some other "new" caster cast instead of him (
Well the only way you get experience is by doing it and making mistakes along the way. And your opinion of Take's work ethic is your own, but I don't see anyone else running events at nearly the scale that he is. I think you might have unreasonable standards for what is being done.
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Are vortix and lucifron aloud to play for mouz in the current season/finals?
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On June 13 2013 06:07 graan wrote:
Are vortix and lucifron aloud to play for mouz in the current season/finals?
Mouz have already started sending out LucifroN. (look no further than today's match against Axiom) ^^
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On June 13 2013 02:51 SinCitta wrote:
Again, they did not allow player transfers to Karont3 because they didn't consider it a team anymore.
That's pretty ridiculous though.
IMO, every effort should be made to err on the side of letting the players play and letting the teams continue to compete.
This whole thing reeks of teams wanting that easy win.
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its unfortunate but i don't think you can blame Take.
Karont3 disbanded their sc2 roster, so it doesnt make sense to play out the rest of the season with random henchman players.
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im so glad there is a teamleague like this . i think the people should be more thankfull that take is producing souch an awesome team league
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IMO TakeTV had little choice. Karont3 disbanded their sc2 division, DQ'ing their team is pretty much the only logical step. It's admirable that both sides tried to come up with alternatives but, yeah, none of them are really acceptable or fair.
Teams have disbanded in the middle of team leagues before, eg TSL during IPTL. It happens, unfortunately, there's no good solutions, only bad compromises. TakeTV did the best they could in a difficult situation.
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Am I the only one thinking the statement made things worse? The worst part is that it's not clear yet what makes a team, and this happens when you have a league with jokers, new players all around, etc. It's a cool concept, but when problems arise, you have to deal with "not so clear" rules about team compositions.
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I have a hard time seeing where TakeTV had any other real choice given that Karont3 doesn't exist any more.
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I would have expected better communication skills from a company like Acer and/or TaKeTV. And why was Acer allowed to let Vortix and Luci play right away like that? It is against the rules... But nevermind, it's ACER Teamstory Cup, they do what they want.
I'm not saying Karont3 should've been allowed to continue on in the league, but it just seems like the rules in this tournament are the real joke here. They follow "the rules" when they want to. I'm not watching that tournament anymore.
If we want to make eSports a viable thing, maybe we should start acting professional.
EDIT: Punctuation to make it easier to read
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I think this is a dreadful decision and the whole mess reflects incredibly poorly on the whole TakeTV set up to be honest.
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On June 13 2013 03:23 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 02:51 SinCitta wrote:On June 13 2013 02:42 StarStruck wrote:On June 13 2013 02:22 SinCitta wrote:On June 13 2013 01:55 Lorch wrote:On June 13 2013 01:20 DjHorsi wrote:
Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay.. Take would have to be mentally retarded to make a statement on that. What is he supposed to say? Yeah our internal admin communication sucks? Or "hey it's taketv remember that one hsc where we forgot the rules?". Besides a sundance "i get it", there is nothing take can say that doesn't let his company (taketv) look unprofessional as fuck. Something like "We gave wrong information to Ryo and are sorry for the troubles he went through in vain as a result. Steps have been taken that this won't happen again. We apologize to him, the players and the fans." -- By the way, it's probably not TaKe that issued the statement. It's the account "TakeTv," not "TaKeSen". TaKe is busy organizing the Homestory Cup. -- For all the others giving examples of player changes in the ATC. That's not really the controversial part of the conversation anymore. VortiX and LucifroN to mouz, StarDust as a Joker to Quantic, Kane to ROOT and probably some others as well. Whether player changes were allowed or not wasn't really the problem. The problem from the official side was that the former Karont3 wasn't recognized as a team anymore, independent of who COULD play or who can be transferred. Who did Kane play for before he switched to ROOT in the ATC? If you cannot abide by your own rules from the start then I mean come on man. We even had rules for this kind of stuff in WGTour when players switched. If the rule is rosters are frozen for the remainder of the tournament then it should stick. As for the official statement. They should have a rule for teams that disband and that should have been stated clearly to every party involved. Kane played for Pulse before he joined ROOT. Pulse participated in the qualifiers. Player transfers are allowed by admin exception as Nazgul cited. It's a bad rule (because of admin arbitrariness), yes. Again, they did not allow player transfers to Karont3 because they didn't consider it a team anymore. If they created a new team (with sponsors, website and such) as a successor, I guess they could have played on. But the players were already going into different directions. That's right!
Ridiculously arbitrary and pretty shameful to be honest. You guys look terrible here. I can't watch this tournament after this.
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On June 13 2013 06:10 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 06:07 graan wrote:
Are vortix and lucifron aloud to play for mouz in the current season/finals? Mouz have already started sending out LucifroN. (look no further than today's match against Axiom) ^^
seems kinda wrong, double standards? wasnt there a rule you cant change your rooster within the season?
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Good decision, especially because they were trying to play with 2 other players that are under contract with well known teams. I found it absurd to even allow socke playing this league, as he is obviously under contract in a stable team and hes not playing anywhere but in ATL. Luci and vortix were most of karont3 and since such core left there is no point in playing them still(unless luci and vortix decided to stay with k3 until end of ATL,which obv didnt happen)
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It's shameful that the admins of such a league let themselves be influenced by the rivals of a team that is placed 2nd.
It's shameful that the admins prefer to lose the 2nd team with leting any reasonable solution take place.
It's shameful that VortiX and LucifroN are able to play the Acer Teamstory Cup as mouz players ignoring the 2 weeks of penalty but not let Karont3 get new players.
A shameful league which I will not be following anymore.
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I would personally go with the precedent IPTL set (which coincidentally K3 benefited from) which was that the remaining SlayerS players could still play even after their disbanding.
I can understand not letting Thorzain and Sortof play, but I see nothing wrong with 2 players + manager + joker or 2 players + joker + revives - they are literally playing completely inside the rules there.
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Ok it was definitely sloppy off ATC to not have a clear verdict from the get go, but it's completely reasonable that you need to be a team to compete in a team league
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Seems fair to me. Its a team league. If a team disbdands, they forfeit. It would basically be a different team even if they could work something out, a new team that didnt sign up for this league.
People blaming ATC admins are ridiculous. What are you even mad about? The team is gone, and the only people you can blame for that is their management. Almost all the players already jumped ship and would probably prefer to play with their new team then on some phantom one. Why should a bunch of random players be allowed to form a new team to join a league halfway through?
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Wow this has become a "I am pissed about rules not being followed without even taking a look at the events". If the admins talk warmly with the clans and try to be mannered to everyone and in good terms hell it's absolutely normal to give a yes to some grey things... We are not machines and if most of our world would follow that example we weren't so alienated these days. Rules are rules and nothing more. Rules are written so that people don't abuse all kind of things and not so that the whole world starts to rotate around them... If you are favoring rules over individual decisions you must be really scared about a lot of corruption in within the whole thing and that itself is rationally a reason to just "let it all fall". But if you want to see some nice games, some fluid organized clan wars without worry what some background manager producer or whatever might thinks then hell you should be happy that decisions like that are made to take a lot of complications out of the world.
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On June 13 2013 05:18 mikkmagro wrote:
It isn't bogus, mouz is the same..they just recruited two players and removed one.
How is ADDING 2 players and then SUBTRACTING one anywhere close to "the same" ?? I think you need a dictionary bro...
And I will again mention the double-standard (Karont3 can't play with LESS players, but Mouz can add MORE and not have any issues!)
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On June 13 2013 05:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 03:48 StarStruck wrote:On June 13 2013 03:23 TaKeTV wrote:On June 13 2013 02:51 SinCitta wrote:On June 13 2013 02:42 StarStruck wrote:On June 13 2013 02:22 SinCitta wrote:On June 13 2013 01:55 Lorch wrote:On June 13 2013 01:20 DjHorsi wrote:
Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay.. Take would have to be mentally retarded to make a statement on that. What is he supposed to say? Yeah our internal admin communication sucks? Or "hey it's taketv remember that one hsc where we forgot the rules?". Besides a sundance "i get it", there is nothing take can say that doesn't let his company (taketv) look unprofessional as fuck. Something like "We gave wrong information to Ryo and are sorry for the troubles he went through in vain as a result. Steps have been taken that this won't happen again. We apologize to him, the players and the fans." -- By the way, it's probably not TaKe that issued the statement. It's the account "TakeTv," not "TaKeSen". TaKe is busy organizing the Homestory Cup. -- For all the others giving examples of player changes in the ATC. That's not really the controversial part of the conversation anymore. VortiX and LucifroN to mouz, StarDust as a Joker to Quantic, Kane to ROOT and probably some others as well. Whether player changes were allowed or not wasn't really the problem. The problem from the official side was that the former Karont3 wasn't recognized as a team anymore, independent of who COULD play or who can be transferred. Who did Kane play for before he switched to ROOT in the ATC? If you cannot abide by your own rules from the start then I mean come on man. We even had rules for this kind of stuff in WGTour when players switched. If the rule is rosters are frozen for the remainder of the tournament then it should stick. As for the official statement. They should have a rule for teams that disband and that should have been stated clearly to every party involved. Kane played for Pulse before he joined ROOT. Pulse participated in the qualifiers. Player transfers are allowed by admin exception as Nazgul cited. It's a bad rule (because of admin arbitrariness), yes. Again, they did not allow player transfers to Karont3 because they didn't consider it a team anymore. If they created a new team (with sponsors, website and such) as a successor, I guess they could have played on. But the players were already going into different directions. That's right! That's a very bad rule and that doesn't address the other problems I found with your system either. If the admin had simply said what I said earlier which is similar to what this chap has said then there would have been issue with regards to this issue. However, I found a whole whack of issues that sort of mess everything up when it comes to your mandate with the ATC. ~_~ It sort of a weird thing to plan for and rules can't address ever situation perfectly. I mean, how you do make a rule for: "What if a team qualifies and plays, but half way through they disband and a bunch of their players leave. But the rest of their players want to stay on as a "team", but they are all free agents and they want to pull in a few other players from other teams to fill out the roster. None of these players are going to become a new "team", they just want to finish out the season under the same banner. Should we have a rule for that?" I think playing it by ear is better for this one and just making the calls as they come in, rather than trying to make rules that address every possible thing that could happen. Overly specific rules just end up screwing people over.
There is nothing overly complicated about having a team forfeit all their remaining matches if the team disbands. We had similar rule sets in clan leagues for BW. It isn't a far-fetched idea because in competitive gaming we see this happen all the time. If there were a given rule none of this crap would have surfaced. We wouldn't have the issue with the Admin. In either case like I said before, this isn't the only thing I find problematic with this team league and once we read their mandate. It raises a lot of questions about the fairness and the actual quality of this team league to begin with. None of which have been addressed. It's chaos. It makes the EG Master's Cup look good and heck, they use a similar format to WGTour. They've had problems themselves but nothing compared to the crap we hear about with the ATC.
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On June 13 2013 09:48 NAMeCHa wrote:
I would personally go with the precedent IPTL set (which coincidentally K3 benefited from) which was that the remaining SlayerS players could still play even after their disbanding.
I can understand not letting Thorzain and Sortof play, but I see nothing wrong with 2 players + manager + joker or 2 players + joker + revives - they are literally playing completely inside the rules there.
Yeah, but there were still enough Slayers players to finish a Bo9. K3 has like 2 players left, and 1 is the manager.
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On June 13 2013 11:52 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 09:48 NAMeCHa wrote:
I would personally go with the precedent IPTL set (which coincidentally K3 benefited from) which was that the remaining SlayerS players could still play even after their disbanding.
I can understand not letting Thorzain and Sortof play, but I see nothing wrong with 2 players + manager + joker or 2 players + joker + revives - they are literally playing completely inside the rules there. Yeah, but there were still enough Slayers players to finish a Bo9. K3 has like 2 players left, and 1 is the manager.
Didn't IPTL have a rule about playing the same players more than once even if they lost several times and it wasn't an Ace match?
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United States33399 Posts
On June 13 2013 03:23 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 02:51 SinCitta wrote:On June 13 2013 02:42 StarStruck wrote:On June 13 2013 02:22 SinCitta wrote:On June 13 2013 01:55 Lorch wrote:On June 13 2013 01:20 DjHorsi wrote:
Not even a statement about why Karonte was told 3 times that it is okay.. Take would have to be mentally retarded to make a statement on that. What is he supposed to say? Yeah our internal admin communication sucks? Or "hey it's taketv remember that one hsc where we forgot the rules?". Besides a sundance "i get it", there is nothing take can say that doesn't let his company (taketv) look unprofessional as fuck. Something like "We gave wrong information to Ryo and are sorry for the troubles he went through in vain as a result. Steps have been taken that this won't happen again. We apologize to him, the players and the fans." -- By the way, it's probably not TaKe that issued the statement. It's the account "TakeTv," not "TaKeSen". TaKe is busy organizing the Homestory Cup. -- For all the others giving examples of player changes in the ATC. That's not really the controversial part of the conversation anymore. VortiX and LucifroN to mouz, StarDust as a Joker to Quantic, Kane to ROOT and probably some others as well. Whether player changes were allowed or not wasn't really the problem. The problem from the official side was that the former Karont3 wasn't recognized as a team anymore, independent of who COULD play or who can be transferred. Who did Kane play for before he switched to ROOT in the ATC? If you cannot abide by your own rules from the start then I mean come on man. We even had rules for this kind of stuff in WGTour when players switched. If the rule is rosters are frozen for the remainder of the tournament then it should stick. As for the official statement. They should have a rule for teams that disband and that should have been stated clearly to every party involved. Kane played for Pulse before he joined ROOT. Pulse participated in the qualifiers. Player transfers are allowed by admin exception as Nazgul cited. It's a bad rule (because of admin arbitrariness), yes. Again, they did not allow player transfers to Karont3 because they didn't consider it a team anymore. If they created a new team (with sponsors, website and such) as a successor, I guess they could have played on. But the players were already going into different directions. That's right!
See, this is the problem. The actual decision aside, there are a number of fans that are simply bothered by the attitude of the TakeTV tournament organization.
A lot of organizers are criticized blazing ahead with what they believe is right (MLG for instance) without listening to the opinions of others, but it's possible to have the exactly opposite problem, which seems to be the case with TakeTV right now. There's no definitive stance, the admins are waffling back and forth, and all of this just leads to confusion and the perception of an incompetent organization.
It's hard to strike the right balance between being flexible and being principled, but as it is now, you may have veered too far in one direction. The super-relaxed attitude works at HomeStory because that's the character of the tournament itself, but as you can see, some people expect something different for the ATC.
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Reminds me of the "decision" made last HSC in case of the XlorD-Stephano match.... looked horrible, and now this (despite the fact that my personal opinion is that TakeTV made an ok-decision but is simply terrible when it comes to communication lately...). Some rules have to be made clear and crisp, so they can be followed without "extra decisions" by admins. Sometimes it turns out that some rules are not fair in all cases. But if everyone knows about them, its still ok. Giving every important rule an extra-admin-option doesn't work, and it doesn't look professional (because it simply is amateurish).
Honestly, in the last few months it looked as if TakeTV couldn't get their shit together. Sometimes ATC was played and it wasn't even listed in the featured stream section cause no one put it there...liquipedia articles are not updated, linked to the stream, rosterchanges are not updated and so on.... small things here and there, but alltogether it looks like TakeTV is a little bit too relaxed when it comes to their work. That's how it looks from the outside.
Keep the good work up, but get some structure in your daily workflow and think twice about every tournament rule you make (yeah, making rules is NOT easy. But as everyone can see it leads to serious bullshit when someone fails at it).
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Looks like Take is much more unprofessional than I thought.
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On June 11 2013 03:36 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 03:30 imbaSouL wrote:
i think acer made the right choice imo....can't hire ringer's especially when they are on teams already... It's for the competitive spirit. What do you do? Ask Mouz if VortiX/LucifroN finish up this little event with them? Finish what they started? Not sure if Mouz are one of the finalists who qualified lmao. Like I said before, I don't really pay attention to all the bush league shit. Every organization wants to have their own little mini tournament it appears. So I checked. Looks like Mouz is out. How about we do everyone a favor and let the two brothers wrap this up by playing with the team that's not even sponsored by Karont3 anymore?
wtf are you talking about? mouz isn't "out" they can still qualify for the playoffs and the atc is not a "little mini tournament" ,it's the biggest non-korean team league we have atm so I dont know if you hate take tv or just have fun being toxic but pls stop being so unnecessarily negative towards everything...
as to the situation: I think there is nothing wrong with letting the team continue with the manager as 4th player but admins are admins after all and they make the rules
unfortunate but true :/
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On June 13 2013 16:10 ArcadeR wrote:
Reminds me of the "decision" made last HSC in case of the XlorD-Stephano match.... looked horrible, and now this (despite the fact that my personal opinion is that TakeTV made an ok-decision but is simply terrible when it comes to communication lately...). Some rules have to be made clear and crisp, so they can be followed without "extra decisions" by admins. Sometimes it turns out that some rules are not fair in all cases. But if everyone knows about them, its still ok. Giving every important rule an extra-admin-option doesn't work, and it doesn't look professional (because it simply is amateurish).
Honestly, in the last few months it looked as if TakeTV couldn't get their shit together. Sometimes ATC was played and it wasn't even listed in the featured stream section cause no one put it there...liquipedia articles are not updated, linked to the stream, rosterchanges are not updated and so on.... small things here and there, but alltogether it looks like TakeTV is a little bit too relaxed when it comes to their work. That's how it looks from the outside.
Keep the good work up, but get some structure in your daily workflow and think twice about every tournament rule you make (yeah, making rules is NOT easy. But as everyone can see it leads to serious bullshit when someone fails at it).
how is it the job of taketv to update liquipdia? o.O
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On June 13 2013 19:15 sVnteen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 03:36 StarStruck wrote:On June 11 2013 03:30 imbaSouL wrote:
i think acer made the right choice imo....can't hire ringer's especially when they are on teams already... It's for the competitive spirit. What do you do? Ask Mouz if VortiX/LucifroN finish up this little event with them? Finish what they started? Not sure if Mouz are one of the finalists who qualified lmao. Like I said before, I don't really pay attention to all the bush league shit. Every organization wants to have their own little mini tournament it appears. So I checked. Looks like Mouz is out. How about we do everyone a favor and let the two brothers wrap this up by playing with the team that's not even sponsored by Karont3 anymore? wtf are you talking about? mouz isn't "out" they can still qualify for the playoffs and the atc is not a "little mini tournament" ,it's the biggest non-korean team league we have atm so I dont know if you hate take tv or just have fun being toxic but pls stop being so unnecessarily negative towards everything... as to the situation: I think there is nothing wrong with letting the team continue with the manager as 4th player but admins are admins after all and they make the rules unfortunate but true :/
But it was already known that Vipro will go to complexity. so thats three players then, unless you let him play for K3. Then you would have two players who play for different teams in the lineup already.
On top of that they disbanded their sc2 squad. Sure you could say, just get some random players, pay them 5 bucks to play the teamcup and join the non existent k3 team and immediatly disband after the cup, but thats a bit shitty i think.
I can understand that K3 fans arent very happy about this, but i fail to see why there is so much drama.
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On June 13 2013 19:17 sVnteen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 16:10 ArcadeR wrote:
Reminds me of the "decision" made last HSC in case of the XlorD-Stephano match.... looked horrible, and now this (despite the fact that my personal opinion is that TakeTV made an ok-decision but is simply terrible when it comes to communication lately...). Some rules have to be made clear and crisp, so they can be followed without "extra decisions" by admins. Sometimes it turns out that some rules are not fair in all cases. But if everyone knows about them, its still ok. Giving every important rule an extra-admin-option doesn't work, and it doesn't look professional (because it simply is amateurish).
Honestly, in the last few months it looked as if TakeTV couldn't get their shit together. Sometimes ATC was played and it wasn't even listed in the featured stream section cause no one put it there...liquipedia articles are not updated, linked to the stream, rosterchanges are not updated and so on.... small things here and there, but alltogether it looks like TakeTV is a little bit too relaxed when it comes to their work. That's how it looks from the outside.
Keep the good work up, but get some structure in your daily workflow and think twice about every tournament rule you make (yeah, making rules is NOT easy. But as everyone can see it leads to serious bullshit when someone fails at it). how is it the job of taketv to update liquipdia? o.O
not directly their job...but if it's their event they should look from time to time if Liquipedia is up to date and correct. It's a small thing that doesn't take much time to do and according to the fact how many ppl are checking liquipedia for the latest results I'd say it improves the viewers/users experience of the TakeTV Content.
Short: there is no excuse for not keeping it up2date by yourself if none of your viewer does it for you.
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On June 13 2013 20:25 ArcadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 19:17 sVnteen wrote:On June 13 2013 16:10 ArcadeR wrote:
Reminds me of the "decision" made last HSC in case of the XlorD-Stephano match.... looked horrible, and now this (despite the fact that my personal opinion is that TakeTV made an ok-decision but is simply terrible when it comes to communication lately...). Some rules have to be made clear and crisp, so they can be followed without "extra decisions" by admins. Sometimes it turns out that some rules are not fair in all cases. But if everyone knows about them, its still ok. Giving every important rule an extra-admin-option doesn't work, and it doesn't look professional (because it simply is amateurish).
Honestly, in the last few months it looked as if TakeTV couldn't get their shit together. Sometimes ATC was played and it wasn't even listed in the featured stream section cause no one put it there...liquipedia articles are not updated, linked to the stream, rosterchanges are not updated and so on.... small things here and there, but alltogether it looks like TakeTV is a little bit too relaxed when it comes to their work. That's how it looks from the outside.
Keep the good work up, but get some structure in your daily workflow and think twice about every tournament rule you make (yeah, making rules is NOT easy. But as everyone can see it leads to serious bullshit when someone fails at it). how is it the job of taketv to update liquipdia? o.O not directly their job...but if it's their event they should look from time to time if Liquipedia is up to date and correct. It's a small thing that doesn't take much time to do and according to the fact how many ppl are checking liquipedia for the latest results I'd say it improves the viewers/users experience of the TakeTV Content. Short: there is no excuse for not keeping it up2date by yourself if none of your viewer does it for you.
NO! just no! it cant be the Job of an organiser to work for a Website which is doing the same as you are on your own site.
liquipedia has stats and stuff. but if you have your own grid and stuff you shouldnt do double the work and update everything you worked for on another site.
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On June 13 2013 20:37 Tppz! wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 20:25 ArcadeR wrote:On June 13 2013 19:17 sVnteen wrote:On June 13 2013 16:10 ArcadeR wrote:
Reminds me of the "decision" made last HSC in case of the XlorD-Stephano match.... looked horrible, and now this (despite the fact that my personal opinion is that TakeTV made an ok-decision but is simply terrible when it comes to communication lately...). Some rules have to be made clear and crisp, so they can be followed without "extra decisions" by admins. Sometimes it turns out that some rules are not fair in all cases. But if everyone knows about them, its still ok. Giving every important rule an extra-admin-option doesn't work, and it doesn't look professional (because it simply is amateurish).
Honestly, in the last few months it looked as if TakeTV couldn't get their shit together. Sometimes ATC was played and it wasn't even listed in the featured stream section cause no one put it there...liquipedia articles are not updated, linked to the stream, rosterchanges are not updated and so on.... small things here and there, but alltogether it looks like TakeTV is a little bit too relaxed when it comes to their work. That's how it looks from the outside.
Keep the good work up, but get some structure in your daily workflow and think twice about every tournament rule you make (yeah, making rules is NOT easy. But as everyone can see it leads to serious bullshit when someone fails at it). how is it the job of taketv to update liquipdia? o.O not directly their job...but if it's their event they should look from time to time if Liquipedia is up to date and correct. It's a small thing that doesn't take much time to do and according to the fact how many ppl are checking liquipedia for the latest results I'd say it improves the viewers/users experience of the TakeTV Content. Short: there is no excuse for not keeping it up2date by yourself if none of your viewer does it for you. NO! just no! it cant be the Job of an organiser to work for a Website which is doing the same as you are on your own site. liquipedia has stats and stuff. but if you have your own grid and stuff you shouldnt do double the work and update everything you worked for on another site.
If your opinion is that I'm totally wrong, ok. But don't state it here like if its a fact... run your own company and you will look different at such stuff. If I think my image gets damaged by an lazy-updated wiki entry that takes an hour to create and 5-15 minutes to update...I'll fix it myself. Thx.
And now let this little, small, tiny point be and thats it. That was not the topic ^^.
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About the ATC in general - a little bit off-topicish
To be honest I have never seen any instances where the ATC site about Liquipedia was updated too late. These guys are often much faster than I am doing the LR threads. But I heard there are some issues with different versions of articles being visible dependent whether you are logged in or not.
And like it was said above, Liquipedia is rarely updated by tournament organizers themselves. The tournament organizer's job is it to fix stuff on their end first. ATC's website hasn't been updated as fast and as error-free as it should have been lately. Granted, the CMS has no facilities to run a league and everything has to be redacted manually. But this can be no excuse for very obvious oversights.
I don't like several things about league ops, too. In my opinion, organizing an English caster for every match and every map should be a top priority. You don't get a baseline quality for the league if you alienate English viewers by providing them no cast. If you get a cast 85% of the matches, you don't get 85% satisfaction, you get grief for the rest of the matches missing. And no, before Nathanias thinks I criticize him, this is something directed to the league organization, not him. I know you would prefer viewers to watch the German stream, but for many this isn't an option and just leaves you with dissatisfaction and lost viewers of the league overall.
And yes, I do understand that the WCS has not only decreased interest in all other content, but also ties you up with more work because you cover WCS as well. And working on the Homestory Cup is probably a marathon on its own. But still, I think the ATC deserves better and can do better.
About the admin bashing
I think a lot of people have illusions what admins are and what not. I have heard equally bad or worse admin stories in other (high-profile) leagues (what adds up in TakeTV compared to others is the subpar communication). The admin "job" is one of the worst you can get in esports and you will only get noticed by making errors. And with "job", I mean volunteer work, most of the times mixed with other things you have to do. Your company/league doesn't benefit from doing good admin work, you will only get called out when there is an incident AND it surfaces to the public. There is always a lot of bitching and whining but you will almost never see someone volunteering to do it better.
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On June 13 2013 11:12 leova wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 05:18 mikkmagro wrote:
It isn't bogus, mouz is the same..they just recruited two players and removed one. How is ADDING 2 players and then SUBTRACTING one anywhere close to "the same" ?? I think you need a dictionary bro... And I will again mention the double-standard (Karont3 can't play with LESS players, but Mouz can add MORE and not have any issues!)
It's not a double standard. Mouz still exists as a team (with some roster changes), Karont3 no longer exists as a SC2 team.
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Seriously, I'm not saying it's unprofessional because of the rules. It's unprofessional regarding the communication. I've experienced another way of unprofessionality twice from takeTV.net's team, that is why I as a german guy am no more interested in Take's streams, except for the HSC series. Those are great. 
Edit: don't get me wrong, I really like take's idea and what takeTV as an organization does regarding esports. But at some point, one should be more professional, and those guys are long enough in the scene to achieve that.
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Its quite clear to me what happend:
First, Take was ok with the replacement (T-Zain and SortOf)
Than Team Acer (the guys with the money to execute the cup) looked at the rank and thought: aww, would be better for our team if Karont-3 leaves.
Then they made a call.
Then take was no more ok with replacement.
We will never forget that Karont-3 without Lucifron an Vortix beats Team Acer!! Who ever ends up fourth did not deserve the spot!
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Just let them finish the cup and stop turning this into a farce. The admins already made a decisions, you shouldn't be allowed to change a positive decision as that makes it very difficult to accept anything the admins say or do any kind of planning.
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On June 14 2013 00:32 Paladia wrote:
Just let them finish the cup and stop turning this into a farce. The admins already made a decisions, you shouldn't be allowed to change a positive decision as that makes it very difficult to accept anything the admins say or do any kind of planning.
People are allowed to make mistakes and make the wrong call. A company is not bound by the snap judgment on one person who may not have fully thought it through. Also, when you are asking for exceptions to a rule, don't be shocked if people change their mind.
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I like how all the arguments to disqualify them basically boil down to "we want a team, not a roster blablabla". If you can't think of any sensible arguments to make a decision, maybe it's a plan to question the decision-to-be-made rather than pretend the arguments are sound.
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On June 13 2013 19:15 sVnteen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 03:36 StarStruck wrote:On June 11 2013 03:30 imbaSouL wrote:
i think acer made the right choice imo....can't hire ringer's especially when they are on teams already... It's for the competitive spirit. What do you do? Ask Mouz if VortiX/LucifroN finish up this little event with them? Finish what they started? Not sure if Mouz are one of the finalists who qualified lmao. Like I said before, I don't really pay attention to all the bush league shit. Every organization wants to have their own little mini tournament it appears. So I checked. Looks like Mouz is out. How about we do everyone a favor and let the two brothers wrap this up by playing with the team that's not even sponsored by Karont3 anymore? wtf are you talking about? mouz isn't "out" they can still qualify for the playoffs and the atc is not a "little mini tournament" ,it's the biggest non-korean team league we have atm so I dont know if you hate take tv or just have fun being toxic but pls stop being so unnecessarily negative towards everything... as to the situation: I think there is nothing wrong with letting the team continue with the manager as 4th player but admins are admins after all and they make the rules unfortunate but true :/
Perhaps you should read the entire thread before making such silly remarks (kind of ironic because I haven't been following this event closely and I was led to believe playoffs were about to take place). I already retracted it. Once again if you're going to call me out on a late quote you might as well read all of my posts let alone everyone else's before you come off as foolish.
With that said, this is a small tournament compared to everything else. It's small beans regardless of the length and you will have a hard time selling that to everyone else (being the biggest). I have nothing against TaKe (lmao). Once again if you knew my post history you would have seen me giving a lot of praise for the HSC. I was quite adamant about it. I give credit where credit is due, so if I have beef with something going down. You'll know about it.
On June 14 2013 00:51 Siphyo wrote:
I like how all the arguments to disqualify them basically boil down to "we want a team, not a roster blablabla". If you can't think of any sensible arguments to make a decision, maybe it's a plan to question the decision-to-be-made rather than pretend the arguments are sound.
This is what made me dwell on this for a long time because I remembered hearing about teams fielding the same players intentionally regardless of them losing several times. When I looked into it I was dumbfounded because it goes against everything what the TaKetv poster has said regarding this series. It doesn't reflect the rules (or lack thereof I should say). All we can hope is that they learn from this, but it's hard to fix bad Admins.
About the admin bashing
I think a lot of people have illusions what admins are and what not. I have heard equally bad or worse admin stories in other (high-profile) leagues (what adds up in TakeTV compared to others is the subpar communication). The admin "job" is one of the worst you can get in esports and you will only get noticed by making errors. And with "job", I mean volunteer work, most of the times mixed with other things you have to do. Your company/league doesn't benefit from doing good admin work, you will only get called out when there is an incident AND it surfaces to the public. There is always a lot of bitching and whining but you will almost never see someone volunteering to do it better.
I wouldn't really call it an illusion. More often than not they're recruited for the wrong reasons. Most of the time it's through connections. When it comes to recruiting most organizations suck at it and they don't know any better. They don't have a lot of power to begin with either. That's why you're always going to hear these stories about bad admins. It's a thankless position.
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As you talk about Liquipedia, I'm one of the several guys who update the ATC page and I have some troubles sometimes. For example, I don't understand at all the current ranking as it's showed on the ATC website.
How can a team with 4 victories (Axiom) be ahead of a team with 5 (mouz) ? That doesn't make sense. Yes mouz's map average is worse but it shouldn't be considered more importantly than the number of victories.
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France7248 Posts
On June 14 2013 02:26 Boucot wrote:As you talk about Liquipedia, I'm one of the several guys who update the ATC page and I have some troubles sometimes. For example, I don't understand at all the current ranking as it's showed on the ATC website. How can a team with 4 victories (Axiom) be ahead of a team with 5 (mouz) ? That doesn't make sense. Yes mouz's map average is worse but it shouldn't be considered more importantly than the number of victories.
because 4W-3L is better then 5W-6L ? it's not about map difference but victories against losses
It doesn't really matter anyway
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On June 14 2013 02:26 Boucot wrote:As you talk about Liquipedia, I'm one of the several guys who update the ATC page and I have some troubles sometimes. For example, I don't understand at all the current ranking as it's showed on the ATC website. How can a team with 4 victories (Axiom) be ahead of a team with 5 (mouz) ? That doesn't make sense. Yes mouz's map average is worse but it shouldn't be considered more importantly than the number of victories.
Number of wins minus number of losses.
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If K3 wanted to continue ATC so badly, it is hard to understand for me why they disbanded the team like immediately after Luci / Vortix left.
They could have just announced to disband after the tournament and there would have been no problems with them playing on.
A DQ is a tough call but in this case the right one.
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On June 14 2013 02:38 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 02:26 Boucot wrote:As you talk about Liquipedia, I'm one of the several guys who update the ATC page and I have some troubles sometimes. For example, I don't understand at all the current ranking as it's showed on the ATC website. How can a team with 4 victories (Axiom) be ahead of a team with 5 (mouz) ? That doesn't make sense. Yes mouz's map average is worse but it shouldn't be considered more importantly than the number of victories. Number of wins minus number of losses.
o_o Well, ok. The fact that Axiom has a lot of matches late doesn't help. xD
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One of the strongest teams in the ATC is now gone T_T
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This is totally stupid. This is nonsense. One of the biggest screwjob I've ever seen in e-sport.
Guys, don't you remember the IPTL, when TSL disbands, and IGN allowed the former TSL members to continue the competition until the end ? Then why doesnt Take do the same with Karont3 ?
Moreover, the reason he gives (K3 isnt a real team anymore, it does not correspond to the definition of a team we have blablabla...) is nonsense too, and he is not the one who think that, I'm pretty sure he has been put under strong pressure in order to disqualify K3, as a matter of fact, he first agreed with keeping K3 in the competition, which shows that this "definition" of a team isnt from him.
So WHO is the real main admin of Acer's Teamstory cup ? Who took the decision to kick K3 ? None other than Kaoru, the Acer's manager, just because Karont3 beat the hell out of Acer WITHOUT Vortix & LucifroN.
+ A team is a group of people with a full set of complementary skills required to complete a task, job, or project. Just tell me how this definition doesnt fit Karont3.
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On June 14 2013 18:14 KingMel wrote:
So WHO is the real main admin of Acer's Teamstory cup ? Who took the decision to kick K3 ? None other than Kaoru, the Acer's manager, just because Karont3 beat the hell out of Acer WITHOUT Vortix & LucifroN.
This part is just completely stupid, if you really think it's the main reason, then why would have they keep Karont3 score and not nullified it, if it's just because of Team Acer's defeat. It would have been even better for them to erase it.
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On June 14 2013 18:29 Flaele wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 18:14 KingMel wrote:
So WHO is the real main admin of Acer's Teamstory cup ? Who took the decision to kick K3 ? None other than Kaoru, the Acer's manager, just because Karont3 beat the hell out of Acer WITHOUT Vortix & LucifroN.
This part is just completely stupid, if you really think it's the main reason, then why would have they keep Karont3 score and not nullified it, if it's just because of Team Acer's defeat. It would have been even better for them to erase it.
While his point may be stupid, I think his general idea is right. We do know that take and 1 admin was fine at first, and also that they talked to all the teams later on before changing their minds. And tbh if I was the owner of any of the teams in ATC and you would ask me if I'd mind the number 2 team getting kicked, I could not imagine any world where I would ever say yeah.
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On June 14 2013 00:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 00:32 Paladia wrote:
Just let them finish the cup and stop turning this into a farce. The admins already made a decisions, you shouldn't be allowed to change a positive decision as that makes it very difficult to accept anything the admins say or do any kind of planning. People are allowed to make mistakes and make the wrong call. A company is not bound by the snap judgment on one person who may not have fully thought it through. Also, when you are asking for exceptions to a rule, don't be shocked if people change their mind.
While that is true you don't say yes serval times yes and when people spend time and effort in the agreed solution say no.
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I think there is a clear difference: TakeTV might have expected new players to be fully signed with K3. Instead K3 just borrowed some good players from other teams, just like they did with Socke. So while one replacement player from another team might still be okay-ish, having 3/5 players just borrowed from other teams (while officially disbanding your own team) is not really a team anymore, it is just a bunch of players you borrowed to form your allstars team, which is what the Teamstory cup clearly was not about. At least this is what I am getting from all this. And I'm sure there was miscommunication on both ends (K3 claiming that they would sign 2 new players, when instead they would just borrow them, and people/admins telling them they are fine, when in fact they were not). Shit happens.
So please, put down the pitchforks.
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On June 14 2013 19:43 Cirqueenflex wrote:
I think there is a clear difference: TakeTV might have expected new players to be fully signed with K3. Instead K3 just borrowed some good players from other teams, just like they did with Socke. So while one replacement player from another team might still be okay-ish, having 3/5 players just borrowed from other teams (while officially disbanding your own team) is not really a team anymore, it is just a bunch of players you borrowed to form your allstars team, which is what the Teamstory cup clearly was not about. At least this is what I am getting from all this. And I'm sure there was miscommunication on both ends (K3 claiming that they would sign 2 new players, when instead they would just borrow them, and people/admins telling them they are fine, when in fact they were not). Shit happens.
So please, put down the pitchforks.
Okay, I see everyone is still going around in circles and not really reading or keeping up-to-date with what was already said in this thread. K3 already tried to get teamless players as well. This was said right in the beginning but they were denied because they weren't viewed as a team anymore because K3 disbanded after VortiX and LucifroN left. It sucks because an Admin told them one thing and then they were told something else completely. Not only that but when you look at all the activities that have taken place during this team league as you call it. There are a lot of concerns and things that don't quite add up when you look at the format and their mandate, so take it for what it is.
P.S. I find it hard to believe that one of the admins who was involved was Kaoru (if that truly is the case) because I remember dealing with the Frenchman all the time when he was part of MgZ). ._.
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What I don't understand is how did LucifroN and VortiX be allow to play for mouseposts.
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Very unprofessional by TakeTV admin crew
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Great decision by TakeTV Crew. Karont3 tried to turn this into mercenary league.
Its a TEAM league...
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why do they call socke the joker
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On June 20 2013 08:30 snively wrote:
why do they call socke the joker
He is a "mercenary" type player, meaning that he can play for a team despite not being part of that team. Kind of like MC is/was for IM in GSTL and IPL TAC, except without any kind of formal partnership between his team and the team that he may play for.
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They signed a group of players to participate in a tournament, they were accepted. That's all.
Now, if K3 decided to disband, merge, rename, etc. etc. their sc2 division, it should have nothing to do with their participation in the competition for which they already were accepted.
Let's say k3 now says, we changed our minds and create a new sc2 division, would they be reincorporated? and then two days later, k3: "nah, we better disband" -> and kicked again? lol
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On June 17 2013 19:18 cutler wrote:
Great decision by TakeTV Crew. Karont3 tried to turn this into mercenary league.
Its a TEAM league...
Your funny. Hard to call it a team league when it doesn't matter when a player wins or loses. Mercenaries. Don't make me laugh.
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EPT
