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On June 10 2013 06:18 LoLoWy wrote:
The blue flame upgrade could affect positively the hellbat too. The basic damage of the hellbat would be lower, and would increase to its current point when blue flame upgrade is done. This is just making the hellbat rush a little bit more costly so it comes with higher risk. Because right now i feel like you can't get behind with that strat, even if you do no damage.
you are behind with early medivacs and armory. Getting a hellbat with medivacs is 450/200, it would definitely slow down your third and upgrade by quite a bit. Not only you need earlier vespene gas, you could have gotten a third OC and upgrade stim with that price.
There is a reason people don't open hellbat and medivac drop often in TvP and TvZ.
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If we already have a rule for medivacs specially,it wouldn't make it more complicated to just say hellbats cannot be transported. Also removing biological and healing would make the unit more logical, if this makes it too weak, buff it in some other way.
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Hellbats completely ruin TvT
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You can even put landed vikings in medivacs, it makes no sense if hellbat was excluded.
If Hellbats don't serve their purpose of making Mech better TvP, they don't really have a place in the game. If Mech still isn't viable TvP, and Hellbats only make Bio better... Blizzard definitely needs to take a look.
I have had some suggestions before. These include:
1. A gas cost to make
So, your solution is nerfing them when used with mech while leaving them alone with bio? (Since mech is gas limitted and bio mineral limitted). That makes no sense.
And really people, opening fast hellbat drop does set you significantly behind compared to other openings. If they don't do real damage it was just a bad trade (and no, you having to walk your workers away for a bit is not real damage).
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The hellbat is stupid in every mu as far as I can tell. Zerg players need to go roaches just to be able to not die to the drops and as we saw in the WCS, it is incredibly hard to stop hellbat marauder pushes.
The extreme reaction time you need to prevent massive damage from those drops is the same for all races, while the execution is pretty simple and cheap.
I also think the healing is stupid, mainly because its totally illogical but also because hellbats are cheap and AoE - they don't need to be immortal as well.
Adding a gas cost would be an option, but is probably not doable since hellions can transform into hellbats. Unless that is changed.
And while removing the healing would not weaken the drops it would make mass hellbat drops much less viable since they will be much less effective when facing terran bio for example.
Right now it seems in TvT you can totally get away with going mass hellbat because medivacs make up for their immobility and also make them cost-efficient in every battle...
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I like the idea of making the medivacs unable to boost when carrying mechanical units
if not then they have to address the damage or health of the hellbat...I think those are okay but one of these has to be altered for the drops to be easier to deal with...either you keep the damage and lower the health (which would probably ruin the initial reason why hellbat exists in hots) or you lower the damage it does and keep the health (make it where it takes 3 or 4 shots on probes)
or you can just buff other race units to combat that but that might alter the other matchups too significantly as this game is nearly perfect when it comes to balance imo
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On June 10 2013 06:35 Freeborn wrote:
The hellbat is stupid in every mu as far as I can tell. Zerg players need to go roaches just to be able to not die to the drops
So? Certain techs force certain answers units-wise, where is the problem exactly? It's not like defensive Roaches force Zerg to play Roaches/Hydras afterwards...
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I think the problem is that Terran use very little gas. Protoss and Zerg only have one unit that is gas free, Terran have three.
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Not boosting while carrying mech unit solves nothing. They still come to your base and obliterate everything. Once dropped, the medivacs just mostly stand there and don't move, so nerfing boost does nothing, except preventing dropping hellbats on top of other units (which I'm not sure I like or dislike) and maybe delaying the first drop by a bit.
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On June 10 2013 06:26 iky43210 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 10 2013 06:18 LoLoWy wrote:
The blue flame upgrade could affect positively the hellbat too. The basic damage of the hellbat would be lower, and would increase to its current point when blue flame upgrade is done. This is just making the hellbat rush a little bit more costly so it comes with higher risk. Because right now i feel like you can't get behind with that strat, even if you do no damage. you are behind with early medivacs and armory. Getting a hellbat with medivacs is 450/200, it would definitely slow down your third and upgrade by quite a bit. Not only you need earlier vespene gas, you could have gotten a third OC and upgrade stim with that price. There is a reason people don't open hellbat and medivac drop often in TvP and TvZ.
I played 3 TvZ today and got dropped three times. The third one was the most fun. I saw the drop coming, had 1 spine + 1 spore, 2 queens and one roach in the mineral line. I still lost 6-8 workers... It just seems a little strong to be able to drop against that and still do damage. But since you might be talking about pros, you could maybe be right.
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On June 10 2013 06:42 quirinus wrote:
Not boosting while carrying mech unit solves nothing. They still come to your base and obliterate everything. Once dropped, the medivacs just mostly stand there and don't move, so nerfing boost does nothing, except preventing dropping hellbats on top of other units (which I'm not sure I like or dislike) and maybe delaying the first drop by a bit.
I agree changing boost probably won't solve problems. But it's a pretty important part of hellbat drops. The correct hellbat usage is dropping them without using the boost, and when the workers are running away to another base (stacked), pick up, boost, and drop on them to instant all-kill.
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On June 10 2013 06:44 Saumure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 06:26 iky43210 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 10 2013 06:18 LoLoWy wrote:
The blue flame upgrade could affect positively the hellbat too. The basic damage of the hellbat would be lower, and would increase to its current point when blue flame upgrade is done. This is just making the hellbat rush a little bit more costly so it comes with higher risk. Because right now i feel like you can't get behind with that strat, even if you do no damage. you are behind with early medivacs and armory. Getting a hellbat with medivacs is 450/200, it would definitely slow down your third and upgrade by quite a bit. Not only you need earlier vespene gas, you could have gotten a third OC and upgrade stim with that price. There is a reason people don't open hellbat and medivac drop often in TvP and TvZ. I played 3 TvZ today and got dropped three times. The third one was the most fun. I saw the drop coming, had 1 spine + 1 spore, 2 queens and one roach in the mineral line. I still lost 6-8 workers... It just seems a little strong to be able to drop against that and still do damage. But since you might be talking about pros, you could maybe be right.
Then he microd his hellbats, while you didn't micro at all.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
Maybe nerf initial damage, but allow them to acquire blueflame, much like hellions, to make up for the damage lost via the nerf. This would make them less powerful early game, (which, is where they are most abused, especially in TvT.) while still allowing them to be as good as they should be mid game, for Protoss, and maybe Zerg armies. By the mid game, income should allow you to easily defend if you prepare for them.
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On June 10 2013 06:22 quirinus wrote:
Make them not healable by default. Then make the heal upgrade cost like 50/50 and take a lot of time like warpgate research. Insane early drops solved.
Name the upgrade something like "Nano-translucent Armor", researched at a barracks tech lab, needs armory (and/or maybe e-bay).
Would make it harder to get early while going bio, since you need stim/combat shields/concussive from the same barracks tech labs, but is easy when going mech since you don't need the baracks tech labs for anything - thus favoring mech openings when going hellbats (like it is supposed to be).
they would still be insanely cost efficient when they get the upgrade though which is one of the main problems with hellbats.
I still think the best action would be make hellbats not be able to be healed by medivacs, and make them cost at least 25-50 gas.
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IMO, take away the hellion transform away and make it more expensive!
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On June 10 2013 06:23 EvanC wrote:
Just a thought from TvP only. Hellbats were supposed to make mech viable. They didn't. Instead, they made bio more powerful. That's not something that needed to be done.
If Hellbats don't serve their purpose of making Mech better TvP, they don't really have a place in the game. If Mech still isn't viable TvP, and Hellbats only make Bio better... Blizzard definitely needs to take a look.
I have had some suggestions before. These include:
1. A gas cost to make
2. Standard Helion damage (before blue flame). The benefit of transforming is more health and a wider spread of damage (still great against lings). Blue flame gives them the same damage against light as Blue Flame on helions.
3. Stop Medivacs from healing them! Put a clock on the Hellbats at least... when you damage them it means something.
What do you guys think?
Mech IS VIABLE DUE to Hellbats and Speedvacs.I use medivacs with mines with the WM upgrade to keep the protoss home,while building army of Hellbat/tank/Viking and push when maxed,preparing Air transition home.The hellbats are what Mech needed to allow the siege lines survive the Chargelots/Archon/Immortal and are the perfect buffer to all of this.In my TvP I only use Medivacs for drops,not to heal the hellbats in fight...so the "healing" can be removed perfectly
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On June 10 2013 06:53 oogieogie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 06:22 quirinus wrote:
Make them not healable by default. Then make the heal upgrade cost like 50/50 and take a lot of time like warpgate research. Insane early drops solved.
Name the upgrade something like "Nano-translucent Armor", researched at a barracks tech lab, needs armory (and/or maybe e-bay).
Would make it harder to get early while going bio, since you need stim/combat shields/concussive from the same barracks tech labs, but is easy when going mech since you don't need the baracks tech labs for anything - thus favoring mech openings when going hellbats (like it is supposed to be). they would still be insanely cost efficient when they get the upgrade though which is one of the main problems with hellbats. I still think the best action would be make hellbats not be able to be healed by medivacs, and make them cost at least 25-50 gas.
Why not lower their damage too, the unit still seems viable with your two suggested nerfs (which is obviously a major drawback).
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Most changes suggested are massive sweeping ones that would have horrible repercussions on balance. At most the change should be something small, such as larger units taking longer to unload from transports (IE, 1 hellbat takes as long as 2 hellions takes as long as 4 marines). Realistically the only issue with Hellbat drops is that even if your Medivac gets taken out, you're going to drop most of your payload regardless, whilst other drops take much longer to activate.
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The problem with Hellbat drops is that they do damage in 90% of the time. As long as the medivac drops them on the ground its guaranteed damage. The way that Innovation is doing it is really funny too... He just sends one drop after another and is not even trying to hide them. After the initial drops every single medivac is sent through the middle of the map... and he never stops. Its like conveyer of doom.
If you ask me(just an opinion of a humble protoss player) the hellbat has 2 problems:
1)Too much HP(with heal on top of that)
2)Too much damage
One of these should go.
At the end of the day David Kim knows best, so I'm not worried 
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EPT
