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On May 28 2013 14:59 dartoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 14:10 eScaper-tsunami wrote:On May 28 2013 13:07 chisuri wrote:On May 28 2013 12:37 eScaper-tsunami wrote:On May 28 2013 12:07 S:klogW wrote:
I think SC2 is pretty steady and will surpass LOL by the time LOTV is out I wish for the same, but I'm not as optimistic  If anyone can screw something up, count blizzard on it :D. All jokes aside, the downfall of LoL and Dota2 will be the constant new heroes and items. Eventually players will just say "enough is enough" and move on but I think Riot and Valve is too smart to make that mistake. You know nothing. Ok let me give you an example. I have played DotA (1 and 2) for years now and I mostly (98%) p;ayed support heroes. There are like 6-8 notable supports each version. And I never grow tired or bored of playing them. Once I played 2 heroes for all the matches for 6 straight months. Maybe I am an exception but people can play for decades with a roster of more than 100 heroes, and still more to come, in DotA right now. Nah you didn't understand me. Sure there's 100 heroes now, and there was 150 pokemons and it's all good but number of pokemons increased and sadly that didn't generate more buyers. New pokemons just like new heroes can only attract so many NEW players but the main reason for releasing these new content is for player RETENTION. It's how they keep you playing. However once they break each individual's threshold on how many legitimate heroes that should be available in the game, people will start leaving because there's simply too much to handle. Unless you want to argue against me that a game with infinite heroes is the best possible game ever, then I'd be glad to hear your reasons why. But as I was saying, Valve and Riot is probably too smart to make this mistake. Actually the real way they keep the game fresh is to release new patches that change the meta game, more than heroes. As sated by someone else, the real fun of dota comes from team compositions, lane matchups as opposed to just trying out new heroes.
You're right and that's why I said the downfall of LoL and Dota2 will be the constant new heroes and items. If Valve and Riot never cease to develop new heroes they will ultimately lose players instead of gaining. And it's also why I said Valve and Riot is too smart to make that mistake because they are slowly reining in such development and looking into other ways to attract players.
edit: although part of me strongly disagree with forcefully changing the meta game through patches. I didn't like the spore crawler change in zvz.
On May 28 2013 14:59 dartoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 14:10 eScaper-tsunami wrote:
You're contradicting your own argument. If I told you everyone had to play the same 1 hero would you play? Would it be as appealing? Of course not. In other words the number of heroes DOES matter. You can have too little or too much and trust me too much is much less than infinitive.
You have no idea how popular pudge wars is dont you?
Lol quit trolling, i take your pudge wars and raise you techies wars.
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On May 28 2013 08:42 Level10Peon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 06:45 Power[Xp] wrote:The players had more opportunity to shine with micro and split second decision making. Now I have to admit that I haven't watched Starcraft 2 in a year, but I was an active Brood War player for about 10 years and I played the first 2 years quite actively in the Starcraft 2 scene. This feeling for the players to shine is kind of what I missed in Starcraft 2. In Brood War players were able to develop a lot of unique styles. In Starcraft 2 there is also room for players to create a unique style, but they are getting more mainstream, due to the fact that there's less room for players to be a lot better at a certain aspect (micro, macro) compared to other players. This is because some elements in Starcraft 2 has just been made a lot less challenging compared to a game like Brood War. You can think about micro (max groups of 12) compared to unlimited groups, clustering, spamming storm with all your templars etc. or you can think about macro (selecting one building vs selecting all Barracks, Factory etc.). This also has an impact on multitasking. BW was more successful in Korea but (as Khaldor said) SC2 is more successful as an esport basically everywhere else in the world, where as BW had a very tiny, dedicated following outside of Korea. This leads me to believe that cultural and economic explanations are accurate, not the nostaliga-filtered memories of BW's UI and gameplay by foreigners. As an aside, I think it is unfair to compare micro and control for BW players 10 years after BW's release to SC2 players 2 years after release.
I know it is unfair to compare the two, but you need to see the reason why I make the comparison. Maybe I wasn't clear in my explanation. I make the micro and mechanics comparison between the two games, because it explains why one game was more attractive to watch at compared to other games. Most people watch a game with a certain intention. They either like a certain team or player and want to see it for that reason or they expect to a certain player make an amazing play he's famous for. Here comes the reason for my comparison. There was simply more room in a game like Brood War to develop your own unique style and truly shine at it compared to Starcraft 2. And players with a unique style (like Boxer was always known for his outstanding micro and ballsy plays) attracts viewers.
As to why Starcraft 2 is a bigger e-Sport outside Korea compared to Brood War, I think the reason is simple. First of all Starcraft 2 has been released in an era in which Blizzard has a lot more fame compared to the time they released Brood War. So the release of Starcraft 2 got a lot more attention. And I still believe Brood War was quite big outside of Korea, there was a huge player base. The difference was that in those years there weren't many gaming industries and companies outside Korea willing to invest into a game. There are a few exceptions (Counter Strike 1.6, Unreal Tournament and probably more games I forgot) that did get more sponsors and hence grew into big e-sports over the world. But to point out unfair comparisons, I think it is unfair to compare the release of a game in 1998 to the release of a game in 2010 (which builds forth on the fame of the prequel and the company that's releasing it), because during the time a lot has changed in the e-sports scene.
And last I want to point out that it's not nostalgia-filtered memories that make the difference. Like I said, the game design and the depth of a game give players room to create their own unique style and to shine at certain aspects of the game. The room to make different types of plays is very important in keeping a game attractive.
Edit: Oh and could somebody tell me how many Clan Leagues there are nowadays in the non-Korean Starcraft 2 scene? Because even though the community is bigger in Starcraft 2 than it ever has in Brood War, I always felt like the amateur teams and recreative players got ignored. There are plenty of professional teams, but I never saw that many 'recreative teams'. This is btw not critizism, I'm just curious as to how big the scene is for players who don't earn money. In Brood War there were at some point 3 Clan Leagues running at the same time and that provided a lot of activity and fun for the competitive gamers who can't put in as much time as the progamers.
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Just some SC2 apologist stuff, just like when Artosis said SC2 was the best game ever made.
even if LoL is a "free" game, people spend way more than they would on SC2. once you get to Ranked games, you actually need to pay for some Riot Points because you will NEVER have the influence points (experience) to actually afford enough champions to be decent.
The whole PC bang doesn't say why LoL has DESTROYED SC2 in terms of popularity.. just being a free game is not it neither.
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On May 28 2013 17:47 Patate wrote:
Just some SC2 apologist stuff, just like when Artosis said SC2 was the best game ever made.
even if LoL is a "free" game, people spend way more than they would on SC2. once you get to Ranked games, you actually need to pay for some Riot Points because you will NEVER have the influence points (experience) to actually afford enough champions to be decent.
The whole PC bang doesn't say why LoL has DESTROYED SC2 in terms of popularity.. just being a free game is not it neither.
Nice post, I have to agree with you (except on the IP stuff). I think it's possible to get enough champions to be decent in ranked, but most people will spend money on it anyway.
I also feel that while this video has good points, it's also neglecting certain problems in the game Starcraft 2, which is probably the biggest cause as to why it's not a popular game. It's too easy to say certain games are more popular just because they are teamgames and because they are free to play.
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On May 28 2013 17:40 Power[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 08:42 Level10Peon wrote:On May 28 2013 06:45 Power[Xp] wrote:The players had more opportunity to shine with micro and split second decision making. Now I have to admit that I haven't watched Starcraft 2 in a year, but I was an active Brood War player for about 10 years and I played the first 2 years quite actively in the Starcraft 2 scene. This feeling for the players to shine is kind of what I missed in Starcraft 2. In Brood War players were able to develop a lot of unique styles. In Starcraft 2 there is also room for players to create a unique style, but they are getting more mainstream, due to the fact that there's less room for players to be a lot better at a certain aspect (micro, macro) compared to other players. This is because some elements in Starcraft 2 has just been made a lot less challenging compared to a game like Brood War. You can think about micro (max groups of 12) compared to unlimited groups, clustering, spamming storm with all your templars etc. or you can think about macro (selecting one building vs selecting all Barracks, Factory etc.). This also has an impact on multitasking. BW was more successful in Korea but (as Khaldor said) SC2 is more successful as an esport basically everywhere else in the world, where as BW had a very tiny, dedicated following outside of Korea. This leads me to believe that cultural and economic explanations are accurate, not the nostaliga-filtered memories of BW's UI and gameplay by foreigners. As an aside, I think it is unfair to compare micro and control for BW players 10 years after BW's release to SC2 players 2 years after release. I know it is unfair to compare the two, but you need to see the reason why I make the comparison. Maybe I wasn't clear in my explanation. I make the micro and mechanics comparison between the two games, because it explains why one game was more attractive to watch at compared to other games. Most people watch a game with a certain intention. They either like a certain team or player and want to see it for that reason or they expect to a certain player make an amazing play he's famous for. Here comes the reason for my comparison. There was simply more room in a game like Brood War to develop your own unique style and truly shine at it compared to Starcraft 2. And players with a unique style (like Boxer was always known for his outstanding micro and ballsy plays) attracts viewers. As to why Starcraft 2 is a bigger e-Sport outside Korea compared to Brood War, I think the reason is simple. First of all Starcraft 2 has been released in an era in which Blizzard has a lot more fame compared to the time they released Brood War. So the release of Starcraft 2 got a lot more attention. And I still believe Brood War was quite big outside of Korea, there was a huge player base. The difference was that in those years there weren't many gaming industries and companies outside Korea willing to invest into a game. There are a few exceptions (Counter Strike 1.6, Unreal Tournament and probably more games I forgot) that did get more sponsors and hence grew into big e-sports over the world. But to point out unfair comparisons, I think it is unfair to compare the release of a game in 1998 to the release of a game in 2010 (which builds forth on the fame of the prequel and the company that's releasing it), because during the time a lot has changed in the e-sports scene. And last I want to point out that it's not nostalgia-filtered memories that make the difference. Like I said, the game design and the depth of a game give players room to create their own unique style and to shine at certain aspects of the game. The room to make different types of plays is very important in keeping a game attractive. Edit: Oh and could somebody tell me how many Clan Leagues there are nowadays in the non-Korean Starcraft 2 scene? Because even though the community is bigger in Starcraft 2 than it ever has in Brood War, I always felt like the amateur teams and recreative players got ignored. There are plenty of professional teams, but I never saw that many 'recreative teams'. This is btw not critizism, I'm just curious as to how big the scene is for players who don't earn money. In Brood War there were at some point 3 Clan Leagues running at the same time and that provided a lot of activity and fun for the competitive gamers who can't put in as much time as the progamers.
oh God, THIS. We're still on the honeymoon of HoTS, but I don't think this will last way longer.
Most of the matchups in SC2 are still deathball vs deathball.. Koreans are bright enough not to be attracted into this. I really think those defending SC2 in the eternal bw vs sc2 debate has never watched pro BW, and then try to emulate the plays on ICCup or something. It is IMPOSSIBLE, where in SC2 it is humanly possible. The mechanics dicated the winner in BW, because the metagame has stalled for almost 5 years.
A honorable mention however to TvZ and TvT which can still make interesting matches in SC2. Anything however that this god-awful deathballish 1Aish gimmicky race (Protoss) touches is instantly turned to shit.
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diablo 3 held 1st place in most played game in pc bangs for several months ahead of LoL after its launch until the problems in the game (overpopulated servers and broken economy) killed it.
i doubt diablo 3 is free in kr.
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On May 28 2013 17:50 Power[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 17:47 Patate wrote:
Just some SC2 apologist stuff, just like when Artosis said SC2 was the best game ever made.
even if LoL is a "free" game, people spend way more than they would on SC2. once you get to Ranked games, you actually need to pay for some Riot Points because you will NEVER have the influence points (experience) to actually afford enough champions to be decent.
The whole PC bang doesn't say why LoL has DESTROYED SC2 in terms of popularity.. just being a free game is not it neither. Nice post, I have to agree with you (except on the IP stuff). I think it's possible to get enough champions to be decent in ranked, but most people will spend money on it anyway. I also feel that while this video has good points, it's also neglecting certain problems in the game Starcraft 2, which is probably the biggest cause as to why it's not a popular game. It's too easy to say certain games are more popular just because they are teamgames and because they are free to play.
And for the record, I do play LoL but I do not really watch it because I don't feel like the players are doing inhuman mechanical prowess. They go around with their 50 APM and this kind of rustles me. However, for having taken a look at the All-star games last weekend in Shanghai (200k viewers just on Twitch, by the way), I feel the game has the magic and legendary feel that BW tournaments had. Also, I did not follow BW before playing SC2, so this is not really a nostalgic thing. But for the non-believers, please take a look at a BW OSL final on youtube. It's all in Korean, you don't know the players that much, but you can feel that this is legend in the making, not some other SC2 tournament whose winner will be destroyed by some foreigner next tournament.
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On May 28 2013 17:57 OopsOopsBaby wrote:
diablo 3 held 1st place in most played game in pc bangs for several months ahead of LoL after its launch until the problems in the game (overpopulated servers and broken economy) killed it.
i doubt diablo 3 is free in kr.
Diablo 3 is a special case. I was in a meeting at work ( with mostly Baby Boomers coworkers) the day that Diablo 3 got out, and they actually mentioned that there's a big game coming out, etc etc. The hype for that game has exceeded anything I've ever seen. I personally know people who had planned to actually make money off the game, and I would guess that Koreans had planned this also.
The reason why it has fallen off so much is not really the auction house IMHO, but more like because the whole game is based around it, and that customization is rare. To be honest, Diablo 3 is an awful game, and it shows (like SC2 flaws that have never been resolved) that Blizzard's actual crew are just mediocre developpers who can still sell their game based on the reputation of their company's previous generations of games.
if diablo 3 was actually decent, I think PC Bangs's customers would still dig this one.
Edit: Also I would like to remind you guys that Khaldor, just like Artosis, are paid by GomTV, therefore Blizzard. They would NEVER claim the game has failed in Korea.
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well this thread escalated quickly...
Thank you Khaldor for producing great content and being a badass nonetheless :D
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
D3 was/is free in pc bangs but you can only play on the asian server.
I think it was never popular because they had server problems from the start.
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I had not done that already, but now I subscribed. Not particularly because of that video but because I should have long ago 
Keep up the goodwork Khaldor. It's always a pleasure to watch your videos, great insights on the Korean culture.
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10/10 video thx very informative
btw requesting more terran apm videos : )
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When I was in Korea last week, I often tune into the OGN tv channel before going out or sleep. For 7 days, the only match I managed to catch was on WCS: Soulkey vs sOs. The rest of the time was them
Replaying CJ Frost vs random team LoL match. Like litereally I watched that match for 3-4 times. Even on of the pro league match days, the channel was playing LoL and I had to watch the match on YouTube. Pretty sure, there's only 1-2 esports channel and 95% of it was playing LoL. Did manage to see some yellow montage which was pretty nice in between commercials though.
Compared this to my last trip where BW was always playing, I'm fairly certain that SC2 just wouldn't last in Korea. And the only reason why BW had a following even after so many years was mainly because of Proleague IMO. Now that most of their focus are on LoL, I really can't see SC2 lasting anywhere. Don't get me wrong, sc2 is the game for me but realistically, I just don't see it surviving.
PS: The live audience of LoL matches are huge, compared to tr abysmal live audiences of PL and stream numbers.
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Pff, this many patate posts make my head hurt.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On May 28 2013 05:12 Philozovic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 01:52 Targe wrote:On May 27 2013 21:34 Andr3 wrote:
Great video.
What stuck the most in my head is the bit where you compared team games to 1vs1.
I've been only playing DotA the past few months and it's so much easier to blame your team than yourself. When you lose in SC it's all your fault.
I think that deters a lot of people from actually playing SC2. I'm pretty sure the balance between people that play SC2 and people that watch it is heavily shifted towards the latter. I would say the majority of those who blame their team for their loss (if they played sc2) would be those that blame imbalance for their loss. I disagree with that, I played a lot of LoL before SC2 came out (during LoL open beta so like October 2009-September 2010) and not only it's way harder to understand a loss (well except like there is a DQ or 0/0/17 guy i'm talking about on the edge game) but it, most of the time, comes down to synergy and teamplay (or that was at least what I felt) and therefore the fault is spread and you don't feel as bad as when losing a 1v1 game. Edit : And they nerfed nitro pack which was not used in 1v1 if I remember correctly to nerfed Speedling reaper+nitro in 2v2
What? That has nothing to do with what I said, I said people who blame their loss on their team would be the same people who blame imbalance for their loss in SC2.
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On May 28 2013 17:47 Patate wrote:
even if LoL is a "free" game, people spend way more than they would on SC2. once you get to Ranked games, you actually need to pay for some Riot Points because you will NEVER have the influence points (experience) to actually afford enough champions to be decent.
Thats simply not true. I know a lot of people who play ranked and never bought single riot point. If You play a lot You can buy all heros with IP.
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On May 28 2013 20:51 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 17:47 Patate wrote:
even if LoL is a "free" game, people spend way more than they would on SC2. once you get to Ranked games, you actually need to pay for some Riot Points because you will NEVER have the influence points (experience) to actually afford enough champions to be decent.
Thats simply not true. I know a lot of people who play ranked and never bought single riot point. If You play a lot You can buy all heros with IP.
and you need to have 16 champs to even play ranked. so u should have champs for atleast 2 different roles.
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On May 28 2013 18:01 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 17:50 Power[Xp] wrote:On May 28 2013 17:47 Patate wrote:
Just some SC2 apologist stuff, just like when Artosis said SC2 was the best game ever made.
even if LoL is a "free" game, people spend way more than they would on SC2. once you get to Ranked games, you actually need to pay for some Riot Points because you will NEVER have the influence points (experience) to actually afford enough champions to be decent.
The whole PC bang doesn't say why LoL has DESTROYED SC2 in terms of popularity.. just being a free game is not it neither. Nice post, I have to agree with you (except on the IP stuff). I think it's possible to get enough champions to be decent in ranked, but most people will spend money on it anyway. I also feel that while this video has good points, it's also neglecting certain problems in the game Starcraft 2, which is probably the biggest cause as to why it's not a popular game. It's too easy to say certain games are more popular just because they are teamgames and because they are free to play. And for the record, I do play LoL but I do not really watch it because I don't feel like the players are doing inhuman mechanical prowess. They go around with their 50 APM and this kind of rustles me. However, for having taken a look at the All-star games last weekend in Shanghai (200k viewers just on Twitch, by the way), I feel the game has the magic and legendary feel that BW tournaments had. Also, I did not follow BW before playing SC2, so this is not really a nostalgic thing. But for the non-believers, please take a look at a BW OSL final on youtube. It's all in Korean, you don't know the players that much, but you can feel that this is legend in the making, not some other SC2 tournament whose winner will be destroyed by some foreigner next tournament.
Yeah it is a shame that LoL doesn't require a lot of apm. I play LoL myself now as well and I was a high apm player in Brood War and Starcraft 2, but I could not really use it to my advantage in LoL. But the good side about it is that I had to learn a lot of new stuff in LoL, which made it a new challenge for me and that's what I like in games
And I think the LoL Tournaments are growing in excitement. The games are more exciting than before and some players are really establishing themselves in the scene. The players have their own unique playstyle for a certain role of the game (jungle, ad carry, mid etc) and it makes people look forward to see how an agressive jungler has an influence on the game against a passive jungler who makes his lanes stronger etc. The different type of plays and games is what attracts the people to watch it. It was the same in Brood War
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On May 28 2013 17:50 Power[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 17:47 Patate wrote:
Just some SC2 apologist stuff, just like when Artosis said SC2 was the best game ever made.
even if LoL is a "free" game, people spend way more than they would on SC2. once you get to Ranked games, you actually need to pay for some Riot Points because you will NEVER have the influence points (experience) to actually afford enough champions to be decent.
The whole PC bang doesn't say why LoL has DESTROYED SC2 in terms of popularity.. just being a free game is not it neither. Nice post, I have to agree with you (except on the IP stuff). I think it's possible to get enough champions to be decent in ranked, but most people will spend money on it anyway. I also feel that while this video has good points, it's also neglecting certain problems in the game Starcraft 2, which is probably the biggest cause as to why it's not a popular game. It's too easy to say certain games are more popular just because they are teamgames and because they are free to play.
SC2 is an RTS... booom there goes the biggest reason.
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We're all here because we love starcarft and wouldn't like to see it go down the drain. The thing is, you have to accept this is out of your control. Blizzard hired a bunch of guys whose motto when creating new units is that "they are cool and fun to play with". And remember what their definition of cool and fun is: Entomb, and Colossus for them are fun and cool. That should say a lot. I wouldn't get my hopes high with this game unfortunately. They should think much more deep than this if they want this game to be successful. There have been many posts circling around explaining many things that the community in general doesn't like, such as deathballs, the game being too unforgiving, allowing for very little come backs, the stupidly high DPS of many units which makes this seem like everything's on LSD and so on. Blizzard's response is to either ignore or just pretend to fix, like adding the oracle instead of changing other fundamental game mechanics to fix the protoss deathball.
Don't give yourself in too much into this game. Like the chinese say: "Hope for the best, prepare for the worst, accept what will come." Worst case scenario is that SC2 will become a niche again, this time without the koreans. That's sad, but that's ok. Life goes on. I'm sure other news RTS will be there sprouting for the people that love this genre. I used to love Age of Empires until they ruined it with AoE3. Now i love SC2. Must they destroy SC2 i'll find a new RTS to love again.
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EPT
