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Why would age matter in that regard? o-O Good memory though Torte. That blog doesn't even feel that long ago to be honest. As for the guy a few posts above. Yeah the endless banter in solo cues and shit can be numbing at times. The thing is team games can just be as stressful because you don't pick who your teammates are. That is why I like playing with friends most of the time so I don't have to deal with the bullshit that comes with it, but that doesn't mean your opponents won't blow a gasket. The thing is the more people involved the more shit there's going to be. Easy outs man.
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On May 28 2013 12:07 S:klogW wrote:
I think SC2 is pretty steady and will surpass LOL by the time LOTV is out
I wish for the same, but I'm not as optimistic  If anyone can screw something up, count blizzard on it :D. All jokes aside, the downfall of LoL and Dota2 will be the constant new heroes and items. Eventually players will just say "enough is enough" and move on but I think Riot and Valve is too smart to make that mistake.
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On May 28 2013 12:18 FinestHour wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 10:41 SolidMoose wrote:On May 28 2013 08:53 rift wrote:
Ironic that the genre that was birthed by Starcraft has now taken its place. That was warcraft aeon of strife was first created in starcraft 1
there could have been a game in wc2... I know that is where fastest originated.
but I remember Aeon of Strife in starcraft, and that is the earliest I know off the top of my head.
Anyway, well said Khaldor!! I Enjoy your vids.
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On May 28 2013 12:37 eScaper-tsunami wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 12:07 S:klogW wrote:
I think SC2 is pretty steady and will surpass LOL by the time LOTV is out I wish for the same, but I'm not as optimistic If anyone can screw something up, count blizzard on it :D. All jokes aside, the downfall of LoL and Dota2 will be the constant new heroes and items. Eventually players will just say "enough is enough" and move on but I think Riot and Valve is too smart to make that mistake.
would mean dota would be dead for years alrdy.
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On May 28 2013 12:37 eScaper-tsunami wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 12:07 S:klogW wrote:
I think SC2 is pretty steady and will surpass LOL by the time LOTV is out I wish for the same, but I'm not as optimistic If anyone can screw something up, count blizzard on it :D. All jokes aside, the downfall of LoL and Dota2 will be the constant new heroes and items. Eventually players will just say "enough is enough" and move on but I think Riot and Valve is too smart to make that mistake.
You know nothing.
Ok let me give you an example. I have played DotA (1 and 2) for years now and I mostly (98%) p;ayed support heroes. There are like 6-8 notable supports each version. And I never grow tired or bored of playing them. Once I played 2 heroes for all the matches for 6 straight months. Maybe I am an exception but people can play for decades with a roster of more than 100 heroes, and still more to come, in DotA right now.
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I'm actually kind of surprised that there's such a strong internet cafe culture in South Korea despite how good its internet infrastructure is. I've had the opportunity to do a lot of travel so far in my life and the only places I found where internet cafes had any real popularity or importance were in countries where in-home internet connections are typically slower and more expensive or difficult to get if you don't live in a major city.
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On May 28 2013 13:24 forsooth wrote:
I'm actually kind of surprised that there's such a strong internet cafe culture in South Korea despite how good its internet infrastructure is. I've had the opportunity to do a lot of travel so far in my life and the only places I found where internet cafes had any real popularity or importance were in countries where in-home internet connections are typically slower and more expensive or difficult to get if you don't live in a major city.
It has been a big part of the South Korean culture since the late 1990's. Think of it as a hang out place where you often go after school with your friends and play games together while having some snacks.
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I found this video both insightful and well articulated. Was interesting to watch. Thanks, Khaldor.
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LoL and BW are games where you can do the same thing over and over in every game and get to a very high level, SC2 is not, Grubby and Moonglade were talking about Happy on SotG and how he thinks you can find a perfect strategy that works all the time, and that that's not true in SC2.
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On May 28 2013 13:07 chisuri wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 12:37 eScaper-tsunami wrote:On May 28 2013 12:07 S:klogW wrote:
I think SC2 is pretty steady and will surpass LOL by the time LOTV is out I wish for the same, but I'm not as optimistic If anyone can screw something up, count blizzard on it :D. All jokes aside, the downfall of LoL and Dota2 will be the constant new heroes and items. Eventually players will just say "enough is enough" and move on but I think Riot and Valve is too smart to make that mistake. You know nothing. Ok let me give you an example. I have played DotA (1 and 2) for years now and I mostly (98%) p;ayed support heroes. There are like 6-8 notable supports each version. And I never grow tired or bored of playing them. Once I played 2 heroes for all the matches for 6 straight months. Maybe I am an exception but people can play for decades with a roster of more than 100 heroes, and still more to come, in DotA right now.
Nah you didn't understand me. Sure there's 100 heroes now, and there was 150 pokemons and it's all good but number of pokemons increased and sadly that didn't generate more buyers. New pokemons just like new heroes can only attract so many NEW players but the main reason for releasing these new content is for player RETENTION. It's how they keep you playing. However once they break each individual's threshold on how many legitimate heroes that should be available in the game, people will start leaving because there's simply too much to handle. Unless you want to argue against me that a game with infinite heroes is the best possible game ever, then I'd be glad to hear your reasons why. But as I was saying, Valve and Riot is probably too smart to make this mistake.
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Great insight, thanks for the video Khaldor :D
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On May 28 2013 14:10 eScaper-tsunami wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 13:07 chisuri wrote:On May 28 2013 12:37 eScaper-tsunami wrote:On May 28 2013 12:07 S:klogW wrote:
I think SC2 is pretty steady and will surpass LOL by the time LOTV is out I wish for the same, but I'm not as optimistic If anyone can screw something up, count blizzard on it :D. All jokes aside, the downfall of LoL and Dota2 will be the constant new heroes and items. Eventually players will just say "enough is enough" and move on but I think Riot and Valve is too smart to make that mistake. You know nothing. Ok let me give you an example. I have played DotA (1 and 2) for years now and I mostly (98%) p;ayed support heroes. There are like 6-8 notable supports each version. And I never grow tired or bored of playing them. Once I played 2 heroes for all the matches for 6 straight months. Maybe I am an exception but people can play for decades with a roster of more than 100 heroes, and still more to come, in DotA right now. Nah you didn't understand me. Sure there's 100 heroes now, and there was 150 pokemons and it's all good but number of pokemons increased and sadly that didn't generate more buyers. New pokemons just like new heroes can only attract so many NEW players but the main reason for releasing these new content is for player RETENTION. It's how they keep you playing. However once they break each individual's threshold on how many legitimate heroes that should available in the game, people will start leaving because there's simply too much to handle. Unless you want to argue against me that a game with infinite heroes is the best possible game ever, then I'd be glad to hear your reasons why. But as I was saying, Valve and Riot is probably too smart to make this mistake.
My point is the number of heroes doesn't matter. I just play my favorite heroes, which have been there for almost ten years now. I don't care about new heroes too much or even play them to see their spells. I just keep picking the heroes I want and those particular ones hardly change. If DotA has indefinite heroes it doesn't even change the way I play the game. Of course, that will make the game too complicated but you know and I know, that will never happen. DotA has been releasing new heroes with a very slow speed, and I don't even anticipate them. When they come, I will welcome them, but they are not the reason I keep playing DotA. That DotA will release 100 new heroes tomorrow or never to realease any new heroes anymore I will be playing the game.
About new gamers, they still catch up really quick. The truth is you just need to learn 3-4 heroes and youre right on track to charge into the battlefield. The real variation in DotA games is combination of your team and the enemies' team. Even when you just play 1000 games using 1 hero, those games will be different and freshing. That's the retaining attraction of DotA genre.
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I think the biggest problem wasn't blizzard's choices, I think activision was the primary reason WOL screwed the pooch so badly. It's my theory on why diablo 3 was such a horrendous mess and why LAN was omitted. Blizzard was sitting pretty as activision's golden goose and they started demanding some things that just couldn't be achieved, hoping they'd get a free pass because of blizzard's reputation (the RMAH in a game that you had to PAY full price for AND be online at all times?) Forcing each player to buy a copy of the game or forcing the bangs to pay out hourly/remove LAN is the sort of move that only a publisher can come up with. They think they have the market cornered and don't consider alternative possibilities, only to have it blow up in their faces.
This isn't condemning SCII at all, it's still fantastic and I love playing it. But I do think that the failings of the game in korea are more activision at the reigns than blizzard. If WoL came out with LAN support and only charged the bangs for a copy of the game per computer, I'm pretty confident that even the templay aspect of LoL wouldn't have been enough to usurp starcraft's reputation.
Watching commentated LoL is like listening to an auctioneer, 1v1 is fairly objectively a better thing to WATCH. five times as many people becomes a clusterf**k
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On May 28 2013 13:24 forsooth wrote:
I'm actually kind of surprised that there's such a strong internet cafe culture in South Korea despite how good its internet infrastructure is. I've had the opportunity to do a lot of travel so far in my life and the only places I found where internet cafes had any real popularity or importance were in countries where in-home internet connections are typically slower and more expensive or difficult to get if you don't live in a major city.
There's the social aspect of PC bangs, and there's the part where you still need a computer to access the internet.
Even though the South Korean government had the foresight to invest in good internet infrastructure back in like 1990, they didn't hand out PCs to every household. What was PC saturation like in South Korea back in 1998? Kids could spend their allowance at PC bangs because the rates were so cheap. I doubt many kids got enough allowance to buy a gaming rig.
And on the social aspect, I grew up in a Korean neighborhood in the US, and like 10-15 years back there were PC bangs all over the place. All the Korean kids hung out there. One street had 4 f them on one block, and they were all filled to the brim as soon as school ended. Although not many people played Starcraft. Most played CS and D2.
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I'm afraid that SC2 simply cannot compete with LoL or SA in Korea unless the popularity of the game in PC bang starts to pick up. And to do that, the game needs to have a better multiplayer content.
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On May 28 2013 13:24 forsooth wrote:
I'm actually kind of surprised that there's such a strong internet cafe culture in South Korea despite how good its internet infrastructure is. I've had the opportunity to do a lot of travel so far in my life and the only places I found where internet cafes had any real popularity or importance were in countries where in-home internet connections are typically slower and more expensive or difficult to get if you don't live in a major city.
PC bang is not about the internet connection; it's basically where most kids go and hang out with their friends. It's also why it's so important for SC2 to have a good multiplayer content. No kids will go to PC bang to play 1v1 games when they can do that in their home. But, they will go to PC bang with their buddies to play fun multiplayer SC2 contents (the same reason why BW was so popular in PC bang)
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On May 28 2013 14:32 chisuri wrote:
My point is the number of heroes doesn't matter.
You're contradicting your own argument. If I told you everyone had to play the same 1 hero would you play? Would it be as appealing? Of course not. In other words the number of heroes DOES matter. You can have too little or too much and trust me too much is much less than infinitive.
On May 28 2013 14:32 chisuri wrote:
I just play my favorite heroes, which have been there for almost ten years now. I don't care about new heroes too much or even play them to see their spells. I just keep picking the heroes I want and those particular ones hardly change. If DotA has indefinite heroes it doesn't even change the way I play the game. Of course, that will make the game too complicated but you know and I know, that will never happen. DotA has been releasing new heroes with a very slow speed, and I don't even anticipate them. When they come, I will welcome them, but they are not the reason I keep playing DotA. That DotA will release 100 new heroes tomorrow or never to realease any new heroes anymore I will be playing the game.
That's good for you and I envy your ability to follow the game for so long. But sometimes you have to get into other people's mind too. Since you're using personal examples, I guess I'll use mine. I played dota1 for a long time from highschool and throughout university but eventually took a break from dota for a good year due to sc2. Never got back into it and probably never will. Why? Dota2 is VERY different from Dota1 and with all the new heroes and game mechanic changes there will be more to come, to me there's very little incentive to continue playing.
On May 28 2013 14:32 chisuri wrote:
About new gamers, they still catch up really quick. The truth is you just need to learn 3-4 heroes and youre right on track to charge into the battlefield. The real variation in DotA games is combination of your team and the enemies' team. Even when you just play 1000 games using 1 hero, those games will be different and freshing. That's the retaining attraction of DotA genre.
I guess it depends on how casual a player is. I understand the appeal of DotA and how every game is slightly different but it's really a double edged sword. Every hero is different, every player plays the hero ever so slightly differently. For any new player, they will have to learn a handful of heroes because there's always the odd chance the other 9 are being picked/banned. Then you have to learn about your heroes own possible hard counters. Compound that altogether you get a game quite complex and appealing at first. Eventually though that complexity increases ever so much and becomes a drawback and wards off newer players from entering and audiences from watching. And worst case scenario, the competitive player is fed up with the frequency of changes and the constant struggle to remain as the top player/team due to the constant introduction of new content. Viewers will also be fed up with the outrageous amount of randomness and losing their liquibets. And when the competitive scene dies, so does the viewership.
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In hindsight, it is pretty strange that the game shipped without even BGH and money maps.
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On May 28 2013 14:10 eScaper-tsunami wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 13:07 chisuri wrote:On May 28 2013 12:37 eScaper-tsunami wrote:On May 28 2013 12:07 S:klogW wrote:
I think SC2 is pretty steady and will surpass LOL by the time LOTV is out I wish for the same, but I'm not as optimistic If anyone can screw something up, count blizzard on it :D. All jokes aside, the downfall of LoL and Dota2 will be the constant new heroes and items. Eventually players will just say "enough is enough" and move on but I think Riot and Valve is too smart to make that mistake. You know nothing. Ok let me give you an example. I have played DotA (1 and 2) for years now and I mostly (98%) p;ayed support heroes. There are like 6-8 notable supports each version. And I never grow tired or bored of playing them. Once I played 2 heroes for all the matches for 6 straight months. Maybe I am an exception but people can play for decades with a roster of more than 100 heroes, and still more to come, in DotA right now. Nah you didn't understand me. Sure there's 100 heroes now, and there was 150 pokemons and it's all good but number of pokemons increased and sadly that didn't generate more buyers. New pokemons just like new heroes can only attract so many NEW players but the main reason for releasing these new content is for player RETENTION. It's how they keep you playing. However once they break each individual's threshold on how many legitimate heroes that should be available in the game, people will start leaving because there's simply too much to handle. Unless you want to argue against me that a game with infinite heroes is the best possible game ever, then I'd be glad to hear your reasons why. But as I was saying, Valve and Riot is probably too smart to make this mistake.
Actually the real way they keep the game fresh is to release new patches that change the meta game, more than heroes. As sated by someone else, the real fun of dota comes from team compositions, lane matchups as opposed to just trying out new heroes.
You're contradicting your own argument. If I told you everyone had to play the same 1 hero would you play? Would it be as appealing? Of course not. In other words the number of heroes DOES matter. You can have too little or too much and trust me too much is much less than infinitive.
You have no idea how popular pudge wars is dont you?
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Thank you so much for making this Khaldor. A lot of people are relatively new to SC and don't realize that while Brood War was one of the biggest professional sports in South Korea, SC2 comes nowhere close. It isn't even the most popular competitive esport. Great video and lays down some sad but true solid truth.
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EPT
