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On May 28 2013 05:18 edlover420 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 04:19 eScaper-tsunami wrote:
3.) LoL and DotA2 have infinitely less action going on in them than in SC2. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to say they're bad games, clearly they're not, but they're far farrr easier to follow and understand up to a reasonable degree of depth, from a spectator standpoint. (which is also part of why they're so successful) Nope. Every race in sc2 has about 6 units that they actively use in different compositions. Everyone knows which units counters which and what composition is going to come ahead in a fight (unlike in BW and WC3 where micro actually mattered and games were good). But in Dota2 you have about 100 heroes that fight each other in 1v1 lanes, duo lanes, trilanes, offlanes and in teamfights. And this 100 heroes uses more than 100 items. There is so many possibilities. So many surprises. So many builds, so many undiscovered lane combos and counters. And the throw potential is huge. But when a team comes back in a Dota2 match it is actually really cool for viewers, unlike in SC2 where it is almost frustrating to watch players lose when they are ahead due to imbalances and hellbats rofl.
Quoted the wrong guy bro:
On May 28 2013 04:30 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 04:19 eScaper-tsunami wrote:
3.) LoL and Dota2 have their success despite having 10 players not just 4. With so much information displayed on their observer UI such as researches, upgrades and production, the information is there and easy to follow. Most of the production in SC2 is followed through production tab. The monitor is mostly used exclusively for engagements. LoL and DotA2 have infinitely less action going on in them than in SC2. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to say they're bad games, clearly they're not, but they're far farrr easier to follow and understand up to a reasonable degree of depth, from a spectator standpoint. (which is also part of why they're so successful)
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Despite all these excuses from apologists the fault is with blizzard. They have the funds and resources to deal with these problems but failed.
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I don't get it, if Koreans have trouble with buying a game no matter the price how did broodwar sell over 4.5 million copies in south korea? Thats almost 10% of the population its insane so how can it be proof that they only liked bw because it was free? Until sc2 sells much more than 30 million copies in America alone I think we should take it as proof that Americans do not like buying games at all and blizzard should compensate for sc3 by raising the price and using more DRM or something.
I do think it would be smart of blizzard to make sc2 ftp though.
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On May 28 2013 06:00 coolcor wrote:
I don't get it, if Koreans have trouble with buying a game no matter the price how did broodwar sell over 4.5 million copies in south korea? Thats almost 10% of the population its insane so how can it be proof that they only liked bw because it was free? Until sc2 sells much more than 30 million copies in America alone I think we should take it as proof that Americans do not like buying games at all and blizzard should compensate for sc3 by raising the price and using more DRM or something.
I do think it would be smart of blizzard to make sc2 ftp though.
BW was popular because custom games were seriously addicting.
Play Sunken D all day...go home and watch OSL before you go to sleep
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i really like your videos khaldor. during the old wc3 times i used to hate you because i didnt like your style of casting, but youre doing a great job now. its very interesting to get to know so much about korea
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Awesome job. Good video. I'm looking for more.
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On May 28 2013 03:17 Lunchador wrote:
The "BW prime" for the players that I remember was a list of TvB games of "3v3 BGH pros only nr20 gogogo!" It was the scrubbiest @#$% ever, but it was the most popular game type and those games ALWAYS filled in under a minute. And when you won, it was because you were a badass, and when you lost, it was always because you had an ally who sucked/spawned in the corner and got rushed. And it was fun as hell either way. I'd always imagine all those years ago, most Koreans who went to the PC bang played mostly team games with each other.
You describe my experiences very good, 3v3 BGH pros only. I skipped the NR ones, I loved pressure.
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On May 28 2013 06:06 nojitosunrise wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 06:00 coolcor wrote:
I don't get it, if Koreans have trouble with buying a game no matter the price how did broodwar sell over 4.5 million copies in south korea? Thats almost 10% of the population its insane so how can it be proof that they only liked bw because it was free? Until sc2 sells much more than 30 million copies in America alone I think we should take it as proof that Americans do not like buying games at all and blizzard should compensate for sc3 by raising the price and using more DRM or something.
I do think it would be smart of blizzard to make sc2 ftp though.
BW was popular because custom games were seriously addicting. Play Sunken D all day...go home and watch OSL before you go to sleep
And you could try it at PC Bangs for free because you could play on LAN there for free, but if you wanted access to the larger community then you had to buy the game. So it was semi-f2p, pay to unlock the full game almost.
Not to mention it's a better game.
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Sad that Blizzard killed SC2
Greedy bastards
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Great Job K. Also glad you shed light on the fact that BW was insanely dead in the US compared to any other competitive game such as Quake or CS. The free to play culture has a ton to do with the lower ratings numbers in KOR. It has a lot less to do with NA BW players who are crying because they now have an actual talent pool of players competing against them in sc2 (Idra). It isn't that Sc2 is worse than BW. What is causing NA BW pros to flame SC2 is their ignorance in understanding that now they have to compete against thousands of solid gamer's(SC2 NA/EU), as apposed to like 8 solid gamer's(BW NA/EU)
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This is a very nice video. You point out some very interesting and valid points. I think you explain the differences between teamgames and 1v1 games very well, but I have to point out as a reaction on some of the posts in this topic that teamgames are not that relaxing at all.
I think there are a lot of players who like to play games with real-life friends, which is why teamgames are played more. But the fact is that this group is not that big. For League of Legends you either have to have a full premade 3v3 or 5v5 team and it's not Always that easy to be online at the same time as all your real-life friends. There's also the fact that there are a lot of people who play solo queue.
My point is that you often get random people in your team and it can lead to a lot of frustration. It's true that it is easier to blame your teammates, but it is also something you can't improve. Your gameplay won't improve unless your team gets better or if you learn how to have a bigger impact on the game by yourself, so the only thing you can do about it is to improve your own skills and mechanics and to improve your strategic game sense so you can try to carry games. In this sense it's not that different compared to 1v1 games like Brood War or Starcraft 2.
Personally I think one of the reasons you forgot to point out for why the number of viewers for games like League of Legends are higher than for Starcraft 2 is because Starcraft 2 simply is not as attractive to watch. Let me explain on this, since I can imagine Starcraft 2 fans might get mad at me for saying this. Personally I like to watch exciting sports and games. Now what makes a game exciting?
I think Brood War had a lot of success, because there were small factors that could influence the game greatly. These small factors can be single units (micro) or amazing decision-making or perhaps incredible mechanics. The crowd would go wild at the sight of a reaver drop. It was up to the player to make as much damage as possible to your enemy's economy with a reaver drop. If the player had outstanding micro he could maximize his reaver damage and hurt the enemy's economy bad. But if the enemy was also an outstanding player, he would have a fast reaction and perhaps great micro to minimize the damage from the reaver drop.
The players had more opportunity to shine with micro and split second decision making. Now I have to admit that I haven't watched Starcraft 2 in a year, but I was an active Brood War player for about 10 years and I played the first 2 years quite actively in the Starcraft 2 scene. This feeling for the players to shine is kind of what I missed in Starcraft 2. In Brood War players were able to develop a lot of unique styles. In Starcraft 2 there is also room for players to create a unique style, but they are getting more mainstream, due to the fact that there's less room for players to be a lot better at a certain aspect (micro, macro) compared to other players. This is because some elements in Starcraft 2 has just been made a lot less challenging compared to a game like Brood War. You can think about micro (max groups of 12) compared to unlimited groups, clustering, spamming storm with all your templars etc. or you can think about macro (selecting one building vs selecting all Barracks, Factory etc.). This also has an impact on multitasking.
Now as to one of the reasons why League of Legends nowadays has so many viewers. You may not believe it, but in LoL there's actually more room to shine as an indivual player than you might think. When one player makes an amazing play or gets a deciding pentakill or a baron steal etc. it gets the crowd going. These moments happen more often in games like LoL than they do in Starcraft 2. They also happened more in Brood War than they do in Starcraft 2.
So besides the things you point out, I would like to point out that if Blizzard wants Starcraft 2 to be more popular in viewer numbers, they would have to work on making the game a bit more challenging and implementing or tweaking units that can have a big impact on the game (like a reaver) if microed well, but that should also leave room for the opponent to react on it with a great play and make the reaver ineffective. For me these things were lacking in Starcraft 2 and were also the reason why I quit playing and watching it. I also find most Starcraft 2 games look quite the same, which makes it repeating and boring, but this is my personal opinion and perhaps a bit bias.
Besides my disliking of Starcraft 2, I still hope the game will develop in a more entertaining way, because I my heart still starts pounding when I hear names like Flash, Jaedong etc (I miss the old progamers though) and I wish the best for the Starcraft 2 scene.
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Thanks Khaldor, you're great because you care.
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Nice Khaldor, I have seen all your videos, really insightful and I'm sure everyone appreciates your effort!
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On May 27 2013 23:23 rpgalon wrote:
Am I the only that thinks the growth of LoL as an esports can attract spectators (not players) to SC2?
It's definitely possible and I'm sure it does happen, but personally I've lost most of my SC2 friends to LoL and Dota during the past year. Their playing time has slowly shifted from playing mostly starcraft, then playing a bit of both games, and eventually to 0% SC2 and 100% LoL/Dota because "Starcraft is too stressful compared to LoL/Dota". On the other hand, my friends who were already into Dota have given SC2 a quick glance and never touched it again.
Makes me sad 
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On May 28 2013 05:18 edlover420 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 04:19 eScaper-tsunami wrote:
3.) LoL and DotA2 have infinitely less action going on in them than in SC2. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to say they're bad games, clearly they're not, but they're far farrr easier to follow and understand up to a reasonable degree of depth, from a spectator standpoint. (which is also part of why they're so successful) Nope. Every race in sc2 has about 6 units that they actively use in different compositions. Everyone knows which units counters which and what composition is going to come ahead in a fight (unlike in BW and WC3 where micro actually mattered and games were good). But in Dota2 you have about 100 heroes that fight each other in 1v1 lanes, duo lanes, trilanes, offlanes and in teamfights. And this 100 heroes uses more than 100 items. There is so many possibilities. So many surprises. So many builds, so many undiscovered lane combos and counters. And the throw potential is huge. But when a team comes back in a Dota2 match it is actually really cool for viewers, unlike in SC2 where it is almost frustrating to watch players lose when they are ahead due to imbalances and hellbats rofl.
By this suggestion, WoW with its 50+ spells and several hundred combinations of arena, team style, z axis changes, group combinations, teamplay, crowd control and skill base was far superior as an esport to SC2 as well.
It wasn't. In fact for someone used to watching Starcraft and WC3 it was like watching paint dry. DoTA2 is like watching paint dry in HD. To someone used to watching Starcraft 2, DoTA2 is slow, it is dull, it has no real action and more importantly than anything else, it is never exciting. The games are too long and too drawn out.
A well played Starcraft 2 engagement can leave you in awe. A well positioned Terran army makes you want to play Starcraft 2. A DoTA2 match, even at the highest level, has nothing in it. You don't even get the awesome positioning of armies you used to get in WC3. It's just.. stale.
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On May 28 2013 06:45 Power[Xp] wrote:The players had more opportunity to shine with micro and split second decision making. Now I have to admit that I haven't watched Starcraft 2 in a year, but I was an active Brood War player for about 10 years and I played the first 2 years quite actively in the Starcraft 2 scene. This feeling for the players to shine is kind of what I missed in Starcraft 2. In Brood War players were able to develop a lot of unique styles. In Starcraft 2 there is also room for players to create a unique style, but they are getting more mainstream, due to the fact that there's less room for players to be a lot better at a certain aspect (micro, macro) compared to other players. This is because some elements in Starcraft 2 has just been made a lot less challenging compared to a game like Brood War. You can think about micro (max groups of 12) compared to unlimited groups, clustering, spamming storm with all your templars etc. or you can think about macro (selecting one building vs selecting all Barracks, Factory etc.). This also has an impact on multitasking.
BW was more successful in Korea but (as Khaldor said) SC2 is more successful as an esport basically everywhere else in the world, where as BW had a very tiny, dedicated following outside of Korea. This leads me to believe that cultural and economic explanations are accurate, not the nostaliga-filtered memories of BW's UI and gameplay by foreigners.
As an aside, I think it is unfair to compare micro and control for BW players 10 years after BW's release to SC2 players 2 years after release.
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there "was" a broodwar community outside of korea? get your facts right khaldor, you lost me there.
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EPT
