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On May 02 2013 09:44 WolfintheSheep wrote:
So...
Richard Lewis writes a smear job, gets a topic opened about him, gets his character and his writing smeared, feels the need to show up on the forum and defend his own smear job while saying the smear job on him is not accurate.
If you're going to write like an asshole, be prepared for people to think you're kind of an asshole.
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Wow thanks Richard. I had no idea donations from fans were killing esports. Keep up the good work.
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On May 02 2013 09:32 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 07:24 Waxangel wrote:On May 02 2013 06:16 cybertopo wrote:On May 02 2013 03:58 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Richard Lewis likes to create controversy. He does write legit pieces from time to time but he stoops to Kotaku levels of nerd-baiting a little bit too much for my liking. OH THE IRONY Even if your assumption that TotalBiscuit does similar things to Richard Lewis is true, wouldn't that technically be hypocracy, and not irony? English majors help me out here. Wax I love you, but have you ever missed an opportunity to defend biscut? I can't remember a negative post about TB where your name didn't show up to defense the guy. I don't understand why this guy has such a problem with ROOT asking for donations. People like to support things they care about, and that's ok.
I think its an issue when people are donating to something that is a sink hole. Root has already failed before, and there is no way for them to generate income. They are not an EG or Liquid team that probably has the assets to support something like this on their own (which is why they are crowd sourcing it.) My issue isn't that they are doing this, or that Catz could run off with the money (because if he did, he would never have a place in SC2 after the shit storm that would follow that), my issue is that is not sustainable and that if they fail now, its not going to work in the future for someone who could make it work. Also, this comes off to me as Root trying to get something they haven't earned. Maybe I am wrong, they obviously have the fan base to raise the money, but to me its just looks like they haven't done it on their own so they are asking for the community to make the house happen for them.
The article is right in that there is ambiguity in the money. Flights, beds, computers, furniture, rent, deposit, computers, monitors is all that is listed. We don't even have a city yet. I don't want them to try to set up shop in some place that they will obviously fail at, like San Francisco, because it is a waste of money. This information isn't specific at all is what I am trying to get at. Are they buying king size pillow top mattresses each? There is ambiguity in the expenses (which is either Root really not having a plan, or Catz just feeling the need not to put the details on the fundraiser site.) Also, they say this on the page "a proper practice environment for our players - a very rare (if not nonexistent) thing on this side of the world" and how they will help develop the scene. That to me is just platitudes to make the house sound more important than it really is. I don't doubt that they will improve, but to act like they will be improving the ESports scene by having a house in California is not true.
All that being said, the responsibility, like everything for autonomous people, resides with the individual. If people want to donate, go for it (though 3k is fucking absurd imo.) I won't be because I see their fundraiser as evidence of their laziness and Root in the past has been an unsustainable business model.
Oh yeah, I have no problem with the style of writing. Who gives a damn how he brings the issue up. The information is public and a pointed article like this gets people talking, which I think is its entire point.
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We have to protect people from donating their money now when all the information about what they will get back and what the money will do is told to them upfront?
This is the same logic that has people riled up over Zach Braff's project.
Where are these stupid people coming from?
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actually i think he is quite right about some aspects of e-sports business going wrong. It`s a generell tendancy and it occurs also with many other teams and community sites. People are made to donate for nothing or a gimmick, people agree to put up huge work schedules as an author for a for-profit organisation and get nothing in return. We are supposed to by products to support "e-sports". Im sick of that. Get your finances straight and find a way to be profitable or leave it. But stop exploiting the lack of maturity of 15 yo's for pumping up your business by abusing their passion.
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I didnt donate, because it wasnt a good deal. Yes, i support esports and sometimes root, but im not a sucker
My point : A good kickstarter gives something to the backers that they really want.
Example : A weekly docu/realitysoap on rootgaming in return for a teamhouse and a 1 year prof. fulltime korean coach.
I could watch there transition, the team and players, the highs and lows, problems in esport teams (between players?), a inside look how well the korean teamhouse model is gonna be implemented, now that would have been worth something to me.
Plz monetize me!
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On May 02 2013 09:58 Cele wrote:
actually i think he is quite right about some aspects of e-sports business going wrong. It`s a generell tendancy and it occurs also with many other teams and community sites. People are made to donate for nothing or a gimmick, people agree to put up huge work schedules as an author for a for-profit organisation and get nothing in return. We are supposed to by products to support "e-sports". Im sick of that. Get your finances straight and find a way to be profitable or leave it. But stop exploiting the lack of maturity of 15 yo's for pumping up your business by exploiting their passion.
I'm in full agreement with you here.
Surely the core issue here is that Root doesn't appear to have a functioning business model or any real way of generating the funds to rent a gaming house. Doesnt crowd sourcing in this way simply create a large scale financial dependence? Esports as an industry is crying out for a regulatory body.
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On May 02 2013 04:20 edlover420 wrote:
People who are so retarded that they donate thousands of dollars for some gaming house, rather than to charity/kids who are starving in Africa, don't deserve to have money anyway.
People who say this are, in my experience, the biggest hypocrites of all.
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I didn't like the tone of the article or the hyperbolic attempts at humor, but I think there's something to the fact that Root asked for something above and beyond what any other organization would ask to buy in donations.
At its root, Root is asking people to pay rent and buy furnishings for four or five people, with a goal of $75k for a single year. They offer essentially nothing in return - not ownership in the team, not a say in evaluating management performance, nothing that allows them to keep the organization accountable. Root doesn't owe anything to the public in terms of transparency and accountability, but surely the guy who donated $3000 deserves to know that his money has been well spent, right?
Nobody is calling it "wrong", but it's fair to criticize the model and say budding e-sports teams need to find other ways of interacting with the community and garnering support.
Unfortunately, I will point out that Lewis contradicted his own article in the third paragraph by criticizing streamers. Streaming is different because viewers DO get something for their donations. Streamers can only get and maintain large viewer numbers by entertaining them, usually by playing the game well. A streamer could let viewers watch him browse the internet for six hours, but people would stop watching and stop donating. That's accountability and transparency.
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On May 02 2013 10:10 Heartscry wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 09:58 Cele wrote:
actually i think he is quite right about some aspects of e-sports business going wrong. It`s a generell tendancy and it occurs also with many other teams and community sites. People are made to donate for nothing or a gimmick, people agree to put up huge work schedules as an author for a for-profit organisation and get nothing in return. We are supposed to by products to support "e-sports". Im sick of that. Get your finances straight and find a way to be profitable or leave it. But stop exploiting the lack of maturity of 15 yo's for pumping up your business by exploiting their passion. I'm in full agreement with you here. Surely the core issue here is that Root doesn't appear to have a functioning business model or any real way of generating the funds to rent a gaming house. Doesnt crowd sourcing in this way simply create a large scale financial dependence? Esports as an industry is crying out for a regulatory body.
I think that's blowing it out of proportion. More like, "Root Gaming is crying out for a full-time business development manager."
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I think the journalist forgot to mention that if the ROOT gaming house fails it'll be the donators money that is going down the sink, the money of people who chose to give that money and had the information needed to do so. Why sohuld anyone care if its a good or a bad deal for them?
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On May 02 2013 10:27 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 10:10 Heartscry wrote:On May 02 2013 09:58 Cele wrote:
actually i think he is quite right about some aspects of e-sports business going wrong. It`s a generell tendancy and it occurs also with many other teams and community sites. People are made to donate for nothing or a gimmick, people agree to put up huge work schedules as an author for a for-profit organisation and get nothing in return. We are supposed to by products to support "e-sports". Im sick of that. Get your finances straight and find a way to be profitable or leave it. But stop exploiting the lack of maturity of 15 yo's for pumping up your business by exploiting their passion. I'm in full agreement with you here. Surely the core issue here is that Root doesn't appear to have a functioning business model or any real way of generating the funds to rent a gaming house. Doesnt crowd sourcing in this way simply create a large scale financial dependence? Esports as an industry is crying out for a regulatory body. I think that's blowing it out of proportion. More like, "Root Gaming is crying out for a full-time business development manager."
Is this the wrong thread to ask how they would pay for a "full-time business development manager"?
I just think the core problem here is not that people are willing to donate, nor that Root have chosen to crowd source - rather that they seem to lack the means / expertise to fund it themselves. Would a gamer house massively increase revenue? How long would they rely on donations?
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Man I really liked him on Curb Your Enthusiasm, but Richard Lewis seems like such a dick now
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On May 02 2013 10:44 Heartscry wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 10:27 Defacer wrote:On May 02 2013 10:10 Heartscry wrote:On May 02 2013 09:58 Cele wrote:
actually i think he is quite right about some aspects of e-sports business going wrong. It`s a generell tendancy and it occurs also with many other teams and community sites. People are made to donate for nothing or a gimmick, people agree to put up huge work schedules as an author for a for-profit organisation and get nothing in return. We are supposed to by products to support "e-sports". Im sick of that. Get your finances straight and find a way to be profitable or leave it. But stop exploiting the lack of maturity of 15 yo's for pumping up your business by exploiting their passion. I'm in full agreement with you here. Surely the core issue here is that Root doesn't appear to have a functioning business model or any real way of generating the funds to rent a gaming house. Doesnt crowd sourcing in this way simply create a large scale financial dependence? Esports as an industry is crying out for a regulatory body. I think that's blowing it out of proportion. More like, "Root Gaming is crying out for a full-time business development manager." Is this the wrong thread to ask how they would pay for a "full-time business development manager"? I just think the core problem here is not that people are willing to donate, nor that Root have chosen to crowd source - rather that they seem to lack the means / expertise to fund it themselves. Would a gamer house massively increase revenue? How long would they rely on donations?
I doubt that they will be able to make the gaming house viable for more than a year. That's why I didn't donate but I have no problem if ROOT fans want to give them a chance at making a team house to see how it goes. Complaining about how people are willing to give ROOT a shot through a fundraiser is silly. It comes across as if Richard Lewis has an ulterior motive (more page views/personal vendetta against ROOT/Catz). The best thing for Catz to do would be to completely ignore the article.
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United States33711 Posts
On May 02 2013 09:32 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 07:24 Waxangel wrote:On May 02 2013 06:16 cybertopo wrote:On May 02 2013 03:58 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Richard Lewis likes to create controversy. He does write legit pieces from time to time but he stoops to Kotaku levels of nerd-baiting a little bit too much for my liking. OH THE IRONY Even if your assumption that TotalBiscuit does similar things to Richard Lewis is true, wouldn't that technically be hypocracy, and not irony? English majors help me out here. Wax I love you, but have you ever missed an opportunity to defend biscut? I can't remember a negative post about TB where your name didn't show up to defense the guy. I don't understand why this guy has such a problem with ROOT asking for donations. People like to support things they care about, and that's ok.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=388131¤tpage=44#874
in general I'm very entertained by khaldor and totalbiscuit and their TL posting habits
they would make very poor horror movie villains, because just appear instantly when mentioned without allowing suspense to build
all the main characters would be dead in in the first 20 mins of the movie
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The Root house fundraiser was basically like any other Kickstarter project. People donate to things they want to help succeed. This Richard Lewis guy doesn't seem too bright.
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On May 02 2013 10:01 govie wrote:I didnt donate, because it wasnt a good deal. Yes, i support esports and sometimes root, but im not a sucker My point : A good kickstarter gives something to the backers that they really want. Example : A weekly docu/realitysoap on rootgaming in return for a teamhouse and a 1 year prof. fulltime korean coach. I could watch there transition, the team and players, the highs and lows, problems in esport teams (between players?), a inside look how well the korean teamhouse model is gonna be implemented, now that would have been worth something to me. Plz monetize me!
You do realize how much money it costs to create a documentary or create ongoing content, right?
Renting a teamhouse would be peanuts compared to the costs of employing content makers for an entire year.
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On May 02 2013 10:57 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 09:32 Joedaddy wrote:On May 02 2013 07:24 Waxangel wrote:On May 02 2013 06:16 cybertopo wrote:On May 02 2013 03:58 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Richard Lewis likes to create controversy. He does write legit pieces from time to time but he stoops to Kotaku levels of nerd-baiting a little bit too much for my liking. OH THE IRONY Even if your assumption that TotalBiscuit does similar things to Richard Lewis is true, wouldn't that technically be hypocracy, and not irony? English majors help me out here. Wax I love you, but have you ever missed an opportunity to defend biscut? I can't remember a negative post about TB where your name didn't show up to defense the guy. I don't understand why this guy has such a problem with ROOT asking for donations. People like to support things they care about, and that's ok. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=388131¤tpage=44#874in general I'm very entertained by khaldor and totalbiscuit and their TL posting habits they would make very poor horror movie villains, because just appear instantly when mentioned without allowing suspense to build all the main characters would be dead in in the first 20 mins of the movie
All credit to ya, that was a good ribbing. Can't argue with that
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On May 02 2013 10:56 ELlminator1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 10:44 Heartscry wrote:On May 02 2013 10:27 Defacer wrote:On May 02 2013 10:10 Heartscry wrote:On May 02 2013 09:58 Cele wrote:
actually i think he is quite right about some aspects of e-sports business going wrong. It`s a generell tendancy and it occurs also with many other teams and community sites. People are made to donate for nothing or a gimmick, people agree to put up huge work schedules as an author for a for-profit organisation and get nothing in return. We are supposed to by products to support "e-sports". Im sick of that. Get your finances straight and find a way to be profitable or leave it. But stop exploiting the lack of maturity of 15 yo's for pumping up your business by exploiting their passion. I'm in full agreement with you here. Surely the core issue here is that Root doesn't appear to have a functioning business model or any real way of generating the funds to rent a gaming house. Doesnt crowd sourcing in this way simply create a large scale financial dependence? Esports as an industry is crying out for a regulatory body. I think that's blowing it out of proportion. More like, "Root Gaming is crying out for a full-time business development manager." Is this the wrong thread to ask how they would pay for a "full-time business development manager"? I just think the core problem here is not that people are willing to donate, nor that Root have chosen to crowd source - rather that they seem to lack the means / expertise to fund it themselves. Would a gamer house massively increase revenue? How long would they rely on donations? I doubt that they will be able to make the gaming house viable for more than a year. That's why I didn't donate but I have no problem if ROOT fans want to give them a chance at making a team house to see how it goes. Complaining about how people are willing to give ROOT a shot through a fundraiser is silly. It comes across as if Richard Lewis has an ulterior motive (more page views/personal vendetta against ROOT/Catz). The best thing for Catz to do would be to completely ignore the article.
Exactly. Had the tone of the article been "should we be concerned that Root are having to go down the donations route rather than organically growing their business" it would have had a lot more value. It's a trifle harsh to condemn them before they've even signed a lease!
My concern would be that they were unable to sell the idea to sponsors that a gaming house would provide any return on investment - which would suggest that there isn't a viable business plan in place. That being said, if people want to simply donate the money fully aware that it is a short term project ( as in, until the donations dry up), then it's people's money to do as they choose as far as I am concerned.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
Out of interest, genuinely curious. How many of you actually read the article in its entirety?
Anyway, I like the idea of crowdsourced funding, and I believe wholeheartedly that Catz is genuine in his desire to make the NA scene more competitive. I still don't think a Root house is the optimal way to go about this, why not pool resources with other NA organisations and get a sick teamhouse where people from various NA teams can stay full-time, with space for others to come in and ramp up the level?
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EPT
