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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On April 11 2013 23:00 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 22:53 -Kaiser- wrote:On April 11 2013 20:49 Markwerf wrote:
the guy is totally ignorant sometimes.
Mech is a total failure, even less used than in WoL perhaps. Completely unviable in TvP and not used in TvZ. Tanks see only TvT play basically despite having a free upgrade now.
Admittedly TvZ and PvZ are a bit better now with some more action going on. TvP however is hardly improved, it's even more an all-in or defend game for P now with the occasional guessing game of oracles vs widow mines.
TvP in general, ZvZs mutafest and skytoss in ZvP could use some tweaking. Inevitable the medivac will gain a small nerf too, I guess the speedboost will just get a longer cooldown or something. Bio is versatile enough that you can make it work without your build being precise. If you try to play mech without having everything clear in your head, Protoss will roll you with a superior army and Zerg will roll you with a superior economy. Maybe you want to rephrase that because it sounds barking mad. Pro Terrans are just building random stuff when playing bio right? Christ...
That isn't what he said at all. You are taking what he said to the complete extreme.
I have to agree with him. Compared to Bio, Mech is far weaker to tech switches because of the nature of it's units. It also doesn't have as much information normally because it is so much more defensive. Because Mech is so defensive, the opponent has much more room to do different types of strategies, but with Bio, the standard Bio pressure in the mid-game prevents the opponent from doing too many different things and it allows the Bio player to see what they are doing very easily.
So Mech builds generally have to be extremely tight in order to deal with all the possibilities, because the style itself doesn't have many ways to limit the opponents possibilities or scout them far in advance.
There's no reason to take it as insulting to people playing Bio... different styles favor different skillsets. Most people would agree Bio is more mechanically demanding.
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I don't understand why people say tanks are bad and don't work and all that.
LiquidSea made them work plenty of times in all match ups because he didn't give up on them after 2 games. It was amazing to see and refreshing.
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On April 11 2013 22:10 Nachtwind wrote:
Give swarm host a passive spawn boost that only start working at a group of 5 hosts. Something like a passive bonus like china troops had back in C&C Generals trololo.
Give locust nuclear reactors too.
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On April 11 2013 23:49 baba1 wrote:
I don't understand why people say tanks are bad and don't work and all that.
LiquidSea made them work plenty of times in all match ups because he didn't give up on them after 2 games. It was amazing to see and refreshing.
Anything is viable when you kill dozens of Probes and your opponent is incompetent when it comes to playing against mech.
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Good interview, overall.
There is some stuff I agree on, then other stuff I don't.
One of my main concerns is, in fact, the Tempest. I just dislike this unit, due to it negatating a lot of Capital Ship play. We can all look at that game between MVP and Squirtle, with the Battlecruisers, Voidrays etc, and know that was an awesome watch. I got the idea that the Tempest will negate this, much like it may have to Broodlords in ZvP, however this might also be due to the Voidray in its current state.
A question that gets to me, and makes me wonder, if anyone can answer this?
Is Tempest needed to counter BL/INF, now that it has been nerfed? The updated carrier, and evasion of Fungal may solve this, leaving the Tempest obsolete, though might be wrong.
I somewhat agree with what he said about mech, spreading tanks could help a lot, but would require insane APM/Multi-tasking.
On a whole though, I'm glad they are taking it slow, and I'm looking forward to where the game is going to go.
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On April 11 2013 23:15 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 23:08 Emix_Squall wrote:On April 11 2013 23:00 Sapphire.lux wrote:On April 11 2013 22:53 -Kaiser- wrote:On April 11 2013 20:49 Markwerf wrote:
the guy is totally ignorant sometimes.
Mech is a total failure, even less used than in WoL perhaps. Completely unviable in TvP and not used in TvZ. Tanks see only TvT play basically despite having a free upgrade now.
Admittedly TvZ and PvZ are a bit better now with some more action going on. TvP however is hardly improved, it's even more an all-in or defend game for P now with the occasional guessing game of oracles vs widow mines.
TvP in general, ZvZs mutafest and skytoss in ZvP could use some tweaking. Inevitable the medivac will gain a small nerf too, I guess the speedboost will just get a longer cooldown or something. Bio is versatile enough that you can make it work without your build being precise. If you try to play mech without having everything clear in your head, Protoss will roll you with a superior army and Zerg will roll you with a superior economy. Maybe you want to rephrase that because it sounds barking mad. Pro Terrans are just building random stuff when playing bio right? Christ... Stop barking dude. He's actually right though he didn't phrase it well. Bio armies are much easier to reproduce, much more mobile and scale best with great micro skills. Mech armies require more carefull play, better positionning and take better advantage of timing attacks. That's all He was talking about the build and how precise it has to be, not army management and game plans. "barking mad" is an expression, telling someone he is barking is an insult.
A build means nothing if it isn't taken into the full picture of what skills are most important during each MU.
I know what barking mad means.
And I know "barking" alone is insulting, just like ending a post with "Christ ..." like one's talking to the dumbest person ever.
Thx for trying to go vigilante on this
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you can pull out a solid mine rush before forced detection. and even when building to fast spore/detection, it won't help the build that i've been seeing. between this shit and protoss air, i'm not sure what to think... mass fungle was a bandaid for a problem. it seems like hots is just a chance for terran and toss to jerk off in retaliation while not even really attempting to overcome anything. and before i hear the bullshit... i never laddered mass infestor/bl... i fucking hate that build. it is, and always was uninteresting. not that it currently isn't a waste of time...
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 12 2013 00:10 Emix_Squall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 23:15 Sapphire.lux wrote:On April 11 2013 23:08 Emix_Squall wrote:On April 11 2013 23:00 Sapphire.lux wrote:On April 11 2013 22:53 -Kaiser- wrote:On April 11 2013 20:49 Markwerf wrote:
the guy is totally ignorant sometimes.
Mech is a total failure, even less used than in WoL perhaps. Completely unviable in TvP and not used in TvZ. Tanks see only TvT play basically despite having a free upgrade now.
Admittedly TvZ and PvZ are a bit better now with some more action going on. TvP however is hardly improved, it's even more an all-in or defend game for P now with the occasional guessing game of oracles vs widow mines.
TvP in general, ZvZs mutafest and skytoss in ZvP could use some tweaking. Inevitable the medivac will gain a small nerf too, I guess the speedboost will just get a longer cooldown or something. Bio is versatile enough that you can make it work without your build being precise. If you try to play mech without having everything clear in your head, Protoss will roll you with a superior army and Zerg will roll you with a superior economy. Maybe you want to rephrase that because it sounds barking mad. Pro Terrans are just building random stuff when playing bio right? Christ... Stop barking dude. He's actually right though he didn't phrase it well. Bio armies are much easier to reproduce, much more mobile and scale best with great micro skills. Mech armies require more carefull play, better positionning and take better advantage of timing attacks. That's all He was talking about the build and how precise it has to be, not army management and game plans. "barking mad" is an expression, telling someone he is barking is an insult. A build means nothing if it isn't taken into the full picture of what skills are most important during each MU. I know what barking mad means. And I know "barking" alone is insulting, just like ending a post with "Christ ..." like one's talking to the dumbest person ever. Thx for trying to go vigilante on this You enter the discussion to "put me right" and explain, starting of with an insult no less. And i am playing vigilante? Can you get over yourself?
ZjiublingZ i see what you mean, i overreacted maybe. Just implying that bio builds are not "precise" sounded a bit offensive to..well..all the Terran pros, since bio looks like the only way at this time.
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On April 11 2013 23:58 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 23:49 baba1 wrote:
I don't understand why people say tanks are bad and don't work and all that.
LiquidSea made them work plenty of times in all match ups because he didn't give up on them after 2 games. It was amazing to see and refreshing. Anything is viable when you kill dozens of Probes and your opponent is incompetent when it comes to playing against mech.
Some strategies are better at killing probes than others :D.
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Give swarm hosts time. They are really strong.
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On April 11 2013 23:58 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 22:10 Nachtwind wrote:
Give swarm host a passive spawn boost that only start working at a group of 5 hosts. Something like a passive bonus like china troops had back in C&C Generals trololo. Give locust nuclear reactors too.
No! They need Napalm Firestorms! How can you overlooked this?! :D
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On April 11 2013 13:10 Dudasc wrote:They should increase the range of the locusts back to 3 and probably increase SHs move speed a little bit. It's very disappointing that he didnt say anything about zergs air issues: bad anti-air, and broodlords not being viable again. You just can't win ZvP or ZvT air battle. Also nothing about ZvZ.. That's sad 
Are you kidding me? Bad Anti-air??? I dont think that you know corruptor, infestor and hydralisk.
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On April 12 2013 00:41 lorestarcraft wrote:
Give swarm hosts time. They are really strong. This is definitely true. Most Zergs either don't use them because of the stigma around them (Early on they got a stigma of not being good when no one had actually used them yet. The same thing happened with infestors in early WoL and look how that turned out), or they don't know how to incorporate them in builds. Against Protoss especially, swarmhosts are very good because they force a response. You can't just ignore locusts, they do too much damage. You ignore them for a minute and your entire wall-off will be gone and your base will be flooded with units. You can't just run past them and try and snipe the swarmhosts like a couple zergs in this thread have said or you will lose a huge chunk of your army.
They're really strong, people just have to try using them rather than going full Idra and claiming they suck without even trying them for more than 5 minutes. The fact that blade55555 says they're good is telling enough. He is a very good Zerg and has contributed a ton to Zerg strategy. He knows what he is talking about. He has talked about beating Protoss air with an army incorporating swarmhosts. Catz has also stated as much (On SOTG). It is just most people won't try them because they require practice to use since they are new and people would rather do something familiar like roach/hydra.
I really hope that Blizzard does not buff them simply so people use them. They've done that in the past and it never ends well.
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Honestly, don't make mech viable in TvP. It won't be as exciting as Bio
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On April 12 2013 00:10 Emix_Squall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 23:15 Sapphire.lux wrote:On April 11 2013 23:08 Emix_Squall wrote:On April 11 2013 23:00 Sapphire.lux wrote:On April 11 2013 22:53 -Kaiser- wrote:On April 11 2013 20:49 Markwerf wrote:
the guy is totally ignorant sometimes.
Mech is a total failure, even less used than in WoL perhaps. Completely unviable in TvP and not used in TvZ. Tanks see only TvT play basically despite having a free upgrade now.
Admittedly TvZ and PvZ are a bit better now with some more action going on. TvP however is hardly improved, it's even more an all-in or defend game for P now with the occasional guessing game of oracles vs widow mines.
TvP in general, ZvZs mutafest and skytoss in ZvP could use some tweaking. Inevitable the medivac will gain a small nerf too, I guess the speedboost will just get a longer cooldown or something. Bio is versatile enough that you can make it work without your build being precise. If you try to play mech without having everything clear in your head, Protoss will roll you with a superior army and Zerg will roll you with a superior economy. Maybe you want to rephrase that because it sounds barking mad. Pro Terrans are just building random stuff when playing bio right? Christ... Stop barking dude. He's actually right though he didn't phrase it well. Bio armies are much easier to reproduce, much more mobile and scale best with great micro skills. Mech armies require more carefull play, better positionning and take better advantage of timing attacks. That's all He was talking about the build and how precise it has to be, not army management and game plans. "barking mad" is an expression, telling someone he is barking is an insult. A build means nothing if it isn't taken into the full picture of what skills are most important during each MU. I know what barking mad means. And I know "barking" alone is insulting, just like ending a post with "Christ ..." like one's talking to the dumbest person ever. Thx for trying to go vigilante on this
All I was saying was that mech builds rely on being able to successfully follow through on a plan from beginning to end. Obviously a pro player knows how his bio build transitions at each phase of the game and knows what timings he wants to hit, but bio doesn't rely on everything going according to plan the way mech does.
Bio is a 6-shot revolver, mech is a cannon with a 6-step arming process.
Obviously the edges at the Code S level are extremely small, so the differences are most evident for the average GM. If an attack fails or you take some damage or you get thrown off of your build, bio is more capable of counterplay. If things stray too much in a mech build, you're never going to have the army you need at the time you need it.
The same dynamic exists in ZvP. In WoL, Protoss had benchmarks to hit to try and kill zerg. If he failed, zerg gets brood lord infestor. In HotS, if Protoss intends on getting an air army, Zerg has benchmarks and timings to hit if he wants to kill toss.
This is a similar dynamic as terran mech, with the difference that in the above examples, the opponent (going for the endgame army) has inevitability. The opponent puts on a clock for you to try and race. In mech play, the Terran player puts the burden of success on himself.
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Blizzard seems to be getting better and better each day, glad to see them being really involved.
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I've been using nothing but mech despite all the complaints.
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Don't they dare buff swarm hosts, if anything they need nerfs. So hard to deal with as a protoss, it's like getting hit in the face with broodlords at 10ish min.
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--- wrong post -- to be deleted
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EPT
