|
I for one welcome our korean overlords. WCS global finals will be an astoundingly awesome KR tournament.
|
On April 10 2013 21:50 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:45 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 21:43 Ryps wrote:I wonder if most Koreans picked NA because it was easier than Europe, now NA will be way harder  I am sure the reasons are sponsor-wise for the teams, but also the lag from EU to korea is bigger than from NA. Harstem tweeted earlier that the Koreans have no chance of getting through the EU qualifiers if they have to play on EU server. I'm inclined to believe him since he probably has more experience on playing cross sever at a high level. Makes me wonder if players like MC will relocate to EU for longer periods of time, to play the qualifiers as well. SK should be able to provide him that possibility at least.
i think best to solve the problem is LET THEM PLAY ON THE SERVER
then no korean choose EU; why should an EU player in EU tournament play US with lag to help the KR enemy .. no sense
|
On April 10 2013 21:59 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:55 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:52 DusTerr wrote:On April 10 2013 21:25 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:19 arkedos wrote:On April 10 2013 21:12 Benjamin99 wrote:
Actually the more I think about the more I think its a good idea if the NA players who live in NA should just boycott the NA WSC to send a clear message to blizzard and reveal that they are only bitchy and cocky because they dont get the money? You can already observe this behaviour in a nut shell when you take a look at the EG house. I mean they have a team house but instead of practising together, sharing builds and work like a team, they are just streaming for themselves over VERY VERY long periods of the day (well which is fine for itself because in that way they can make some money maybe to help to maintain the teamhouse) and it seems that they got a really poor atmosphere at the teamhouse. Stephano once said on his stream: "I whish I had friends on the US that I can practice with". I mean: HELLO you are in a TEAMhouse ? Shouldnt he practice with his TEAMmates? I Like the Idea of EG having a house where players live together but they are not using this infrastructure they have set up. Its nothing near effective like the Korean team houses. This got nothing to do with money but everything to do with the growth of the NA scene. The NA is dead if this is going to happen. And I don't think you or I is in a position to talk about EG and there social well-being as a team. So the NA scene got to make a choice they can either go with it and try to compete but will fail and eventually die out since no sponsors or teams will be interested in NA players. Or they can fight this and simply boycot it to force blizzard to make changes so it require residency to play in the NA WCS On April 10 2013 21:24 Novacute wrote:
At least we'll get great games in ALL qualifiers now. Who gives a shit really. You don't watch the Olympics because the best teams and players are not there in there respective sports?? People with you attitude makes me sick. This is good for the NA scene. Sponsors want exposure. This will bring more exposure. (We're not going to see BW 2.0 because the tournaments are much more accessible to fans in multiple regions.) This isn't the Olympics. Do you think more people watch the world series or the world baseball classic? Good for the NA scene really? Please tell me you trolling or kidding?. You will not find a single NA player who think this is good for the NA scene I can promise you that Only if they just want easy competition/money. It's good for the NA scene in the long run to have actual competition.
You post is preposterous. You are simply clueless. This got nothing to do with easy money. This is basically a death stroke to any NA player or any future talent from NA. I expect many NA teams will also avoid sc2. No Sponsors or teams will pay a dime to any NA player simply because the investment is not worth it. Sponsors and teams wants exposure
|
On April 10 2013 21:53 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:52 DusTerr wrote:On April 10 2013 21:25 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:19 arkedos wrote:On April 10 2013 21:12 Benjamin99 wrote:
Actually the more I think about the more I think its a good idea if the NA players who live in NA should just boycott the NA WSC to send a clear message to blizzard and reveal that they are only bitchy and cocky because they dont get the money? You can already observe this behaviour in a nut shell when you take a look at the EG house. I mean they have a team house but instead of practising together, sharing builds and work like a team, they are just streaming for themselves over VERY VERY long periods of the day (well which is fine for itself because in that way they can make some money maybe to help to maintain the teamhouse) and it seems that they got a really poor atmosphere at the teamhouse. Stephano once said on his stream: "I whish I had friends on the US that I can practice with". I mean: HELLO you are in a TEAMhouse ? Shouldnt he practice with his TEAMmates? I Like the Idea of EG having a house where players live together but they are not using this infrastructure they have set up. Its nothing near effective like the Korean team houses. This got nothing to do with money but everything to do with the growth of the NA scene. The NA is dead if this is going to happen. And I don't think you or I is in a position to talk about EG and there social well-being as a team. So the NA scene got to make a choice they can either go with it and try to compete but will fail and eventually die out since no sponsors or teams will be interested in NA players. Or they can fight this and simply boycot it to force blizzard to make changes so it require residency to play in the NA WCS On April 10 2013 21:24 Novacute wrote:
At least we'll get great games in ALL qualifiers now. Who gives a shit really. You don't watch the Olympics because the best teams and players are not there in there respective sports?? People with you attitude makes me sick. This is good for the NA scene. Sponsors want exposure. This will bring more exposure. (We're not going to see BW 2.0 because the tournaments are much more accessible to fans in multiple regions.) This isn't the Olympics. Do you think more people watch the world series or the world baseball classic? From a football experience, more people watch the world championship than champion's league, or the most stacked leagues, so yeah.
I used baseball as an example because the skill level isn't near as similar as it is in football. Football and many other Olympic competitions have a relatively equal skill bases and the Olympics even cut sports that stop being competitive.
|
On April 10 2013 21:50 Kylo55 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:46 CoR wrote:
i really wanna hear what artosis says about this
saying always korea is the main thing and that the gsl is best but without THAT amound of godlikes (i mean come on jaedong mvp mc nestea ... not even gsl can take that hit easy)
for me it seems the kespa teams went to GSL and the ESF to us/eu
also artosis said no BIG player will switch for sure no iglm etc and now seeing MPV MC NEstea etc no more in GSL ... i rly wanna hear him None of the players you mentioned is now in code S. MC just got dropped so... I agree the names are big, but there are better players nowadays.
there was a seasonly problem that MVP MC Nestea went out, normaly no one thinks MVP cant get back in right ?
and so we have a GSL without the 3 legendarys
|
On April 10 2013 22:03 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:50 Bagi wrote:On April 10 2013 21:45 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 21:43 Ryps wrote:I wonder if most Koreans picked NA because it was easier than Europe, now NA will be way harder I am sure the reasons are sponsor-wise for the teams, but also the lag from EU to korea is bigger than from NA. Harstem tweeted earlier that the Koreans have no chance of getting through the EU qualifiers if they have to play on EU server. I'm inclined to believe him since he probably has more experience on playing cross sever at a high level. Makes me wonder if players like MC will relocate to EU for longer periods of time, to play the qualifiers as well. SK should be able to provide him that possibility at least. i think best to solve the problem is LET THEM PLAY ON THE SERVER then no korean choose EU; why should an EU player in EU tournament play US with lag to help the KR enemy .. no sense
If they actually stay on korea, but force the games between koreans and europeans be played on NA to "equalize" the lag too many people would be mad i think.
|
So I could help Esports by offering my european based sleeping couch to a korean player?
|
On April 10 2013 21:57 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:56 dtz wrote:On April 10 2013 21:41 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:34 dtz wrote:On April 10 2013 21:23 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:13 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:10 sc2superfan101 wrote:
No my analogy is to explain why I have little sympathy for someone who doesn't succeed because of outside factors like money. It's basically me telling you and everyone else that the "Oh these poor NA players!" or any other emotional argument isn't going to work on me. I work too goddamn hard at a job I don't really like to barely make ends meet to be moved by someone who *gasp* might have to do the same.
The real argument is that this will actually be better for prospective foreign players anyway. Either they work out a way to make it, or they fall away. Those who make it will be that much stronger and more worthy, and their success will mean that much more. Those who don't make it will have tried and failed, and learned something valuable in the process. It will be painful, it will be unpleasant, but in the long term, it is the only legitimate way. reading your posts you seem to be of the thinking that; 1. Your life sucks, so everyone elses should 2. The BW scene that had basically no western followers is what sc2 should aim to be They both seem like pretty legit arguments. My life is amazing. I have so many opportunities that the vast majority of human beings will never have. I consider my job I don't really like to be a blessing. Untold millions would have killed to get a decent job that pays enough for them to live comfortably, if frugally. You're missing the point entirely. I would love to have a world where everybody succeeds at their dream. But that isn't the real world. Either you hand people success, and they never grow; or you force them to fight tooth and nail for success with the very real prospect of failure. Only in the second scenario can you separate the chaff from the wheat, so to speak. Only in the second scenario do people actually grow and learn something. I actually think the proposed region-locks would result in BW 2.0 before turning into something worse: a dead game and dead scene. How so? At the moment because of BW the Korean scene is insane, everything is centered on Seoul the infrastructure is insane, they have coaches lots of team houses all practicing and working together with there own domestic league where they all play and practice for. Outside of Korea there isn't any of that because the rest of the world is pretty big, and so you instead have random team houses here and there with no real relation to anything in particular and little to no infrastructure. Most non-Korean pro's don't live in team houses and don't have access to the environment Korean players do. By allowing Koreans to play in the WSC outside of Korean your killing any chance of that infrastructure to be built up meaning that foreigners for the most part have no realistic chance of being able to compete with Koreans. You should read Catz post if you havn't already, it really highlights everything that is fundamentally wrong with how this is going. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1c1slt/my_views_on_wcsregional_based_leagues_region/If they allowed region locks, you would still have Koreans coming out of Korean for 'easy' money in tournaments etc and the GSL/Pro League would still be the highest level, but it would give the rest of the world the chance to catch up The Koreans who go to NA/EU will play online with significant lag though. And for those going to EU, they will move there i am pretty sure. Or at least RO16 onwards. They will leave their infrastructure benefits behind and will go to teamhouses in NA/EU. They have no coaches, they will experience cultural shock much like what foreigners experienced in Korea, they will be so tired due to jetlag and travels, etc. The Koreans can transfer their skill and expertise to NA/EU teams who want to build the infrastructure in NA/EU. Additionally, maybe the NA/EU upstarts can't hope to beat MC/MVP in prime condition. but a jetlagged, cultureshocked, coach-less, teamhouse-less MC and MVP? If you want any hope to become good at least you should aim to beat that. I think the goal is to accelerate the growth of Pro Scene in NA and EU. Kinda like how developing countries invite MNCs to set up factories and initiate technological transfer. How MLS invite Beckham / Henry to raise the profile of the local scene and improve the quality of the league. It all depends on how the local scene responds though. If they see it as an opportunity and rise up to the challenge, this can turn out good. If they gave up and saw Koreans as some insurmountable barriers and decided to just rely on streaming income then well it's bad. Yeah I can see what you mean, but if they do move there and set up a house there, those players are already better than EU/NA players.. so even if what you says happen the EU and NA players and teams still wont get much chance to win that money in order to 'even the keel' so it wouldn't really encourage growth because the team owners/managers wouldn't see any benefit from setting up a house (with all the cost that is involved) when there is little chance of them making any money back. If Koreans weren't allowed to compete it would grantee that money to EU/NA teams allowing them to set up houses and grow mini Seoul's in NA and EU over the next few years. Which then allows the EU/NA scenes to actually be comparable to Koreans who aren't simply born better at Starcraft That's the ideal situation though. But actually what a lot of people feared is that the EU/NA teams will be content to just win the regional WCS since its profitable and lucrative enough and don't bother trying to fight the Koreans since it's too difficult. The separation of scene creates even more inequality since there are no real incentive to improve. There needs to be external threat to push the existing foreigners out of the comfort scene imo. That's why Blizzard wants WCS to be the single most important storyline in WCS. They were not happy about last year how there were WCS Champions and there were GSL champions and so there is no concensus most succesful player of the year. With this format if you are in WCS, you are relevant, otherwise you are not. Yeah, ofc the teams will only want to focus on there own region to win that money... THATS what grows our scenes... if there is no money incentive for teams to exist and grow, whats the point?
Well the focus is to challenge the Koreans and not just winning their own region.The money and incentive is there, it's just that EU/NA players have to work hard to earn it and not having it given to them on a silver platter.
Anyway, with regards to my point earlier :
Jos de Kroon
@LiquidRet
People seem to be very worried about Koreans playing in WCS NA/EU. I feel if they are gone from korea long enough, their advantages are gone
So, if the infrastructure is the reason why Koreans are so successful, ultimately there is nothing to fear because they will be leaving their established infrastructure behind. if they want to build new team houses in NA/EU that's great because that will contribute to NA/EU E-sports infrastructure. I am sure some NA/EU progamers/team can learn from there. Again, the presence of Koreans should accelerate skill transfer and infrastructure building.
|
On April 10 2013 22:03 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:59 oxxo wrote:On April 10 2013 21:55 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:52 DusTerr wrote:On April 10 2013 21:25 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:19 arkedos wrote:On April 10 2013 21:12 Benjamin99 wrote:
Actually the more I think about the more I think its a good idea if the NA players who live in NA should just boycott the NA WSC to send a clear message to blizzard and reveal that they are only bitchy and cocky because they dont get the money? You can already observe this behaviour in a nut shell when you take a look at the EG house. I mean they have a team house but instead of practising together, sharing builds and work like a team, they are just streaming for themselves over VERY VERY long periods of the day (well which is fine for itself because in that way they can make some money maybe to help to maintain the teamhouse) and it seems that they got a really poor atmosphere at the teamhouse. Stephano once said on his stream: "I whish I had friends on the US that I can practice with". I mean: HELLO you are in a TEAMhouse ? Shouldnt he practice with his TEAMmates? I Like the Idea of EG having a house where players live together but they are not using this infrastructure they have set up. Its nothing near effective like the Korean team houses. This got nothing to do with money but everything to do with the growth of the NA scene. The NA is dead if this is going to happen. And I don't think you or I is in a position to talk about EG and there social well-being as a team. So the NA scene got to make a choice they can either go with it and try to compete but will fail and eventually die out since no sponsors or teams will be interested in NA players. Or they can fight this and simply boycot it to force blizzard to make changes so it require residency to play in the NA WCS On April 10 2013 21:24 Novacute wrote:
At least we'll get great games in ALL qualifiers now. Who gives a shit really. You don't watch the Olympics because the best teams and players are not there in there respective sports?? People with you attitude makes me sick. This is good for the NA scene. Sponsors want exposure. This will bring more exposure. (We're not going to see BW 2.0 because the tournaments are much more accessible to fans in multiple regions.) This isn't the Olympics. Do you think more people watch the world series or the world baseball classic? Good for the NA scene really? Please tell me you trolling or kidding?. You will not find a single NA player who think this is good for the NA scene I can promise you that Only if they just want easy competition/money. It's good for the NA scene in the long run to have actual competition. You post is preposterous. You are simply clueless. This got nothing to do with easy money. This is basically a death stroke to any NA player or any future talent from NA. I expect many NA teams will also avoid sc2. No Sponsors or teams will pay a dime to any NA player simply because the investment is not worth it. Sponsors and teams wants exposure
Well this is just season 1 and it ends in June. Blizzard is moving all of this off line in the future and once that happens, the number of Korean players will drop pretty quickly. Coming to NA for a weekend or a couple of weeks is one thing. Living here and getting a work visa is a much steeper barrier.
|
Well honestly i dont get this. This is jsut another SC2 tournament. Like 2 years ago there was no WCS. Now there is so whats the problem? They made another tournament, they are not closing MLG, Dreamhac, Homestory Cup. Any of this. So why you are whining? Blizzard never said that they are making the only one tournament that the players should play. The only think that may suffer from this is the number of GLS/OSL events, and thats it. But most of the whining ppl seems like they do not want to follow korean scene anyway.
|
On April 10 2013 22:03 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:59 oxxo wrote:On April 10 2013 21:55 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:52 DusTerr wrote:On April 10 2013 21:25 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:19 arkedos wrote:On April 10 2013 21:12 Benjamin99 wrote:
Actually the more I think about the more I think its a good idea if the NA players who live in NA should just boycott the NA WSC to send a clear message to blizzard and reveal that they are only bitchy and cocky because they dont get the money? You can already observe this behaviour in a nut shell when you take a look at the EG house. I mean they have a team house but instead of practising together, sharing builds and work like a team, they are just streaming for themselves over VERY VERY long periods of the day (well which is fine for itself because in that way they can make some money maybe to help to maintain the teamhouse) and it seems that they got a really poor atmosphere at the teamhouse. Stephano once said on his stream: "I whish I had friends on the US that I can practice with". I mean: HELLO you are in a TEAMhouse ? Shouldnt he practice with his TEAMmates? I Like the Idea of EG having a house where players live together but they are not using this infrastructure they have set up. Its nothing near effective like the Korean team houses. This got nothing to do with money but everything to do with the growth of the NA scene. The NA is dead if this is going to happen. And I don't think you or I is in a position to talk about EG and there social well-being as a team. So the NA scene got to make a choice they can either go with it and try to compete but will fail and eventually die out since no sponsors or teams will be interested in NA players. Or they can fight this and simply boycot it to force blizzard to make changes so it require residency to play in the NA WCS On April 10 2013 21:24 Novacute wrote:
At least we'll get great games in ALL qualifiers now. Who gives a shit really. You don't watch the Olympics because the best teams and players are not there in there respective sports?? People with you attitude makes me sick. This is good for the NA scene. Sponsors want exposure. This will bring more exposure. (We're not going to see BW 2.0 because the tournaments are much more accessible to fans in multiple regions.) This isn't the Olympics. Do you think more people watch the world series or the world baseball classic? Good for the NA scene really? Please tell me you trolling or kidding?. You will not find a single NA player who think this is good for the NA scene I can promise you that Only if they just want easy competition/money. It's good for the NA scene in the long run to have actual competition. You post is preposterous. You are simply clueless. This got nothing to do with easy money. This is basically a death stroke to any NA player or any future talent from NA. I expect many NA teams will also avoid sc2. No Sponsors or teams will pay a dime to any NA player simply because the investment is not worth it. Sponsors and teams wants exposure
And this actually gives the NA scene legitimacy AND exposure. How many viewers did the NA WCS get? What about any other NA held tournament without Koreans?
There is only one thing that's stopped "NA only" events. SPONSORS wanted viewers. Viewers wanted Koreans.
|
What the hell happened...
Kespa so fucking intimidating.
|
On April 10 2013 22:05 dtz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:57 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:56 dtz wrote:On April 10 2013 21:41 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:34 dtz wrote:On April 10 2013 21:23 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:13 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:10 sc2superfan101 wrote:
No my analogy is to explain why I have little sympathy for someone who doesn't succeed because of outside factors like money. It's basically me telling you and everyone else that the "Oh these poor NA players!" or any other emotional argument isn't going to work on me. I work too goddamn hard at a job I don't really like to barely make ends meet to be moved by someone who *gasp* might have to do the same.
The real argument is that this will actually be better for prospective foreign players anyway. Either they work out a way to make it, or they fall away. Those who make it will be that much stronger and more worthy, and their success will mean that much more. Those who don't make it will have tried and failed, and learned something valuable in the process. It will be painful, it will be unpleasant, but in the long term, it is the only legitimate way. reading your posts you seem to be of the thinking that; 1. Your life sucks, so everyone elses should 2. The BW scene that had basically no western followers is what sc2 should aim to be They both seem like pretty legit arguments. My life is amazing. I have so many opportunities that the vast majority of human beings will never have. I consider my job I don't really like to be a blessing. Untold millions would have killed to get a decent job that pays enough for them to live comfortably, if frugally. You're missing the point entirely. I would love to have a world where everybody succeeds at their dream. But that isn't the real world. Either you hand people success, and they never grow; or you force them to fight tooth and nail for success with the very real prospect of failure. Only in the second scenario can you separate the chaff from the wheat, so to speak. Only in the second scenario do people actually grow and learn something. I actually think the proposed region-locks would result in BW 2.0 before turning into something worse: a dead game and dead scene. How so? At the moment because of BW the Korean scene is insane, everything is centered on Seoul the infrastructure is insane, they have coaches lots of team houses all practicing and working together with there own domestic league where they all play and practice for. Outside of Korea there isn't any of that because the rest of the world is pretty big, and so you instead have random team houses here and there with no real relation to anything in particular and little to no infrastructure. Most non-Korean pro's don't live in team houses and don't have access to the environment Korean players do. By allowing Koreans to play in the WSC outside of Korean your killing any chance of that infrastructure to be built up meaning that foreigners for the most part have no realistic chance of being able to compete with Koreans. You should read Catz post if you havn't already, it really highlights everything that is fundamentally wrong with how this is going. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1c1slt/my_views_on_wcsregional_based_leagues_region/If they allowed region locks, you would still have Koreans coming out of Korean for 'easy' money in tournaments etc and the GSL/Pro League would still be the highest level, but it would give the rest of the world the chance to catch up The Koreans who go to NA/EU will play online with significant lag though. And for those going to EU, they will move there i am pretty sure. Or at least RO16 onwards. They will leave their infrastructure benefits behind and will go to teamhouses in NA/EU. They have no coaches, they will experience cultural shock much like what foreigners experienced in Korea, they will be so tired due to jetlag and travels, etc. The Koreans can transfer their skill and expertise to NA/EU teams who want to build the infrastructure in NA/EU. Additionally, maybe the NA/EU upstarts can't hope to beat MC/MVP in prime condition. but a jetlagged, cultureshocked, coach-less, teamhouse-less MC and MVP? If you want any hope to become good at least you should aim to beat that. I think the goal is to accelerate the growth of Pro Scene in NA and EU. Kinda like how developing countries invite MNCs to set up factories and initiate technological transfer. How MLS invite Beckham / Henry to raise the profile of the local scene and improve the quality of the league. It all depends on how the local scene responds though. If they see it as an opportunity and rise up to the challenge, this can turn out good. If they gave up and saw Koreans as some insurmountable barriers and decided to just rely on streaming income then well it's bad. Yeah I can see what you mean, but if they do move there and set up a house there, those players are already better than EU/NA players.. so even if what you says happen the EU and NA players and teams still wont get much chance to win that money in order to 'even the keel' so it wouldn't really encourage growth because the team owners/managers wouldn't see any benefit from setting up a house (with all the cost that is involved) when there is little chance of them making any money back. If Koreans weren't allowed to compete it would grantee that money to EU/NA teams allowing them to set up houses and grow mini Seoul's in NA and EU over the next few years. Which then allows the EU/NA scenes to actually be comparable to Koreans who aren't simply born better at Starcraft That's the ideal situation though. But actually what a lot of people feared is that the EU/NA teams will be content to just win the regional WCS since its profitable and lucrative enough and don't bother trying to fight the Koreans since it's too difficult. The separation of scene creates even more inequality since there are no real incentive to improve. There needs to be external threat to push the existing foreigners out of the comfort scene imo. That's why Blizzard wants WCS to be the single most important storyline in WCS. They were not happy about last year how there were WCS Champions and there were GSL champions and so there is no concensus most succesful player of the year. With this format if you are in WCS, you are relevant, otherwise you are not. Yeah, ofc the teams will only want to focus on there own region to win that money... THATS what grows our scenes... if there is no money incentive for teams to exist and grow, whats the point? Well the focus is to challenge the Koreans not just winning their own region.The money and incentive is there, it's just the EU/NA has to work hard to earn it and not just getting it on a silver platter. Anyway, with regards to my point earlier : https://twitter.com/LiquidRet/status/321917949332033537Jos de Kroon @LiquidRet People seem to be very worried about Koreans playing in WCS NA/EU. I feel if they are gone from korea long enough, their advantages are gone So, if the infrastructure is the reason why Koreans are so successful, ultimately there is nothing to fear because they will be leaving their established infrastructure behind. if they want to build new team houses in NA/EU that's great because that will contribute to NA/EU E-sports infrastructure. I am sure some NA/EU progamers/team can learn from there. Again, the presence of Koreans should accelerate skill transfer and infrastructure building.
What makes you think they will leave their established infrastructure ? That's the whole point, that they are not going to move outside except to play the one weekend deal. And this is speaking about the NA scene exclusively.
|
This is so stupid, why didn't they just make it based on nationality like the last WCS?
At least Europe will have mainly European players in it, but NA is not even worth watching for me now, and I would definitely be pissed if I was a NA pro player.
|
On April 10 2013 22:05 dtz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:57 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:56 dtz wrote:On April 10 2013 21:41 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:34 dtz wrote:On April 10 2013 21:23 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:13 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:10 sc2superfan101 wrote:
No my analogy is to explain why I have little sympathy for someone who doesn't succeed because of outside factors like money. It's basically me telling you and everyone else that the "Oh these poor NA players!" or any other emotional argument isn't going to work on me. I work too goddamn hard at a job I don't really like to barely make ends meet to be moved by someone who *gasp* might have to do the same.
The real argument is that this will actually be better for prospective foreign players anyway. Either they work out a way to make it, or they fall away. Those who make it will be that much stronger and more worthy, and their success will mean that much more. Those who don't make it will have tried and failed, and learned something valuable in the process. It will be painful, it will be unpleasant, but in the long term, it is the only legitimate way. reading your posts you seem to be of the thinking that; 1. Your life sucks, so everyone elses should 2. The BW scene that had basically no western followers is what sc2 should aim to be They both seem like pretty legit arguments. My life is amazing. I have so many opportunities that the vast majority of human beings will never have. I consider my job I don't really like to be a blessing. Untold millions would have killed to get a decent job that pays enough for them to live comfortably, if frugally. You're missing the point entirely. I would love to have a world where everybody succeeds at their dream. But that isn't the real world. Either you hand people success, and they never grow; or you force them to fight tooth and nail for success with the very real prospect of failure. Only in the second scenario can you separate the chaff from the wheat, so to speak. Only in the second scenario do people actually grow and learn something. I actually think the proposed region-locks would result in BW 2.0 before turning into something worse: a dead game and dead scene. How so? At the moment because of BW the Korean scene is insane, everything is centered on Seoul the infrastructure is insane, they have coaches lots of team houses all practicing and working together with there own domestic league where they all play and practice for. Outside of Korea there isn't any of that because the rest of the world is pretty big, and so you instead have random team houses here and there with no real relation to anything in particular and little to no infrastructure. Most non-Korean pro's don't live in team houses and don't have access to the environment Korean players do. By allowing Koreans to play in the WSC outside of Korean your killing any chance of that infrastructure to be built up meaning that foreigners for the most part have no realistic chance of being able to compete with Koreans. You should read Catz post if you havn't already, it really highlights everything that is fundamentally wrong with how this is going. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1c1slt/my_views_on_wcsregional_based_leagues_region/If they allowed region locks, you would still have Koreans coming out of Korean for 'easy' money in tournaments etc and the GSL/Pro League would still be the highest level, but it would give the rest of the world the chance to catch up The Koreans who go to NA/EU will play online with significant lag though. And for those going to EU, they will move there i am pretty sure. Or at least RO16 onwards. They will leave their infrastructure benefits behind and will go to teamhouses in NA/EU. They have no coaches, they will experience cultural shock much like what foreigners experienced in Korea, they will be so tired due to jetlag and travels, etc. The Koreans can transfer their skill and expertise to NA/EU teams who want to build the infrastructure in NA/EU. Additionally, maybe the NA/EU upstarts can't hope to beat MC/MVP in prime condition. but a jetlagged, cultureshocked, coach-less, teamhouse-less MC and MVP? If you want any hope to become good at least you should aim to beat that. I think the goal is to accelerate the growth of Pro Scene in NA and EU. Kinda like how developing countries invite MNCs to set up factories and initiate technological transfer. How MLS invite Beckham / Henry to raise the profile of the local scene and improve the quality of the league. It all depends on how the local scene responds though. If they see it as an opportunity and rise up to the challenge, this can turn out good. If they gave up and saw Koreans as some insurmountable barriers and decided to just rely on streaming income then well it's bad. Yeah I can see what you mean, but if they do move there and set up a house there, those players are already better than EU/NA players.. so even if what you says happen the EU and NA players and teams still wont get much chance to win that money in order to 'even the keel' so it wouldn't really encourage growth because the team owners/managers wouldn't see any benefit from setting up a house (with all the cost that is involved) when there is little chance of them making any money back. If Koreans weren't allowed to compete it would grantee that money to EU/NA teams allowing them to set up houses and grow mini Seoul's in NA and EU over the next few years. Which then allows the EU/NA scenes to actually be comparable to Koreans who aren't simply born better at Starcraft That's the ideal situation though. But actually what a lot of people feared is that the EU/NA teams will be content to just win the regional WCS since its profitable and lucrative enough and don't bother trying to fight the Koreans since it's too difficult. The separation of scene creates even more inequality since there are no real incentive to improve. There needs to be external threat to push the existing foreigners out of the comfort scene imo. That's why Blizzard wants WCS to be the single most important storyline in WCS. They were not happy about last year how there were WCS Champions and there were GSL champions and so there is no concensus most succesful player of the year. With this format if you are in WCS, you are relevant, otherwise you are not. Yeah, ofc the teams will only want to focus on there own region to win that money... THATS what grows our scenes... if there is no money incentive for teams to exist and grow, whats the point? Well the focus is to challenge the Koreans not just winning their own region.The money and incentive is there, it's just the EU/NA has to work hard to earn it and not just getting it on a silver platter. Anyway, with regards to my point earlier : https://twitter.com/LiquidRet/status/321917949332033537Jos de Kroon @LiquidRet People seem to be very worried about Koreans playing in WCS NA/EU. I feel if they are gone from korea long enough, their advantages are gone So, if the infrastructure is the reason why Koreans are so successful, ultimately there is nothing to fear because they will be leaving their established infrastructure behind. if they want to build new team houses in NA/EU that's great because that will contribute to NA/EU E-sports infrastructure. I am sure some NA/EU progamers/team can learn from there. Again, the presence of Koreans should accelerate skill transfer and infrastructure building.
read through the quotes I already said what my own opinion on that is and how while its a good point, I don't think its actually too meaningful if the Korean players do actually stay.
EDIT: to be honest I thought catz and other people's worries where over-blown about koreans invading the rest of the world... and was super surprised by this list and kinda taken aback
|
|
|
On April 10 2013 22:04 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:03 CoR wrote:On April 10 2013 21:50 Bagi wrote:On April 10 2013 21:45 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 21:43 Ryps wrote:I wonder if most Koreans picked NA because it was easier than Europe, now NA will be way harder I am sure the reasons are sponsor-wise for the teams, but also the lag from EU to korea is bigger than from NA. Harstem tweeted earlier that the Koreans have no chance of getting through the EU qualifiers if they have to play on EU server. I'm inclined to believe him since he probably has more experience on playing cross sever at a high level. Makes me wonder if players like MC will relocate to EU for longer periods of time, to play the qualifiers as well. SK should be able to provide him that possibility at least. i think best to solve the problem is LET THEM PLAY ON THE SERVER then no korean choose EU; why should an EU player in EU tournament play US with lag to help the KR enemy .. no sense If they actually stay on korea, but force the games between koreans and europeans be played on NA to "equalize" the lag too many people would be mad i think.
Exactly if they want to play in WCS Europe either move there or accept the lag and hope you can still win. I don't think the european players will voluntary play on US to help the Korean opponent in an supposed european tournament. At least they shouldn't.
|
On April 10 2013 22:05 dtz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:57 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:56 dtz wrote:On April 10 2013 21:41 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:34 dtz wrote:On April 10 2013 21:23 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:13 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:10 sc2superfan101 wrote:
No my analogy is to explain why I have little sympathy for someone who doesn't succeed because of outside factors like money. It's basically me telling you and everyone else that the "Oh these poor NA players!" or any other emotional argument isn't going to work on me. I work too goddamn hard at a job I don't really like to barely make ends meet to be moved by someone who *gasp* might have to do the same.
The real argument is that this will actually be better for prospective foreign players anyway. Either they work out a way to make it, or they fall away. Those who make it will be that much stronger and more worthy, and their success will mean that much more. Those who don't make it will have tried and failed, and learned something valuable in the process. It will be painful, it will be unpleasant, but in the long term, it is the only legitimate way. reading your posts you seem to be of the thinking that; 1. Your life sucks, so everyone elses should 2. The BW scene that had basically no western followers is what sc2 should aim to be They both seem like pretty legit arguments. My life is amazing. I have so many opportunities that the vast majority of human beings will never have. I consider my job I don't really like to be a blessing. Untold millions would have killed to get a decent job that pays enough for them to live comfortably, if frugally. You're missing the point entirely. I would love to have a world where everybody succeeds at their dream. But that isn't the real world. Either you hand people success, and they never grow; or you force them to fight tooth and nail for success with the very real prospect of failure. Only in the second scenario can you separate the chaff from the wheat, so to speak. Only in the second scenario do people actually grow and learn something. I actually think the proposed region-locks would result in BW 2.0 before turning into something worse: a dead game and dead scene. How so? At the moment because of BW the Korean scene is insane, everything is centered on Seoul the infrastructure is insane, they have coaches lots of team houses all practicing and working together with there own domestic league where they all play and practice for. Outside of Korea there isn't any of that because the rest of the world is pretty big, and so you instead have random team houses here and there with no real relation to anything in particular and little to no infrastructure. Most non-Korean pro's don't live in team houses and don't have access to the environment Korean players do. By allowing Koreans to play in the WSC outside of Korean your killing any chance of that infrastructure to be built up meaning that foreigners for the most part have no realistic chance of being able to compete with Koreans. You should read Catz post if you havn't already, it really highlights everything that is fundamentally wrong with how this is going. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1c1slt/my_views_on_wcsregional_based_leagues_region/If they allowed region locks, you would still have Koreans coming out of Korean for 'easy' money in tournaments etc and the GSL/Pro League would still be the highest level, but it would give the rest of the world the chance to catch up The Koreans who go to NA/EU will play online with significant lag though. And for those going to EU, they will move there i am pretty sure. Or at least RO16 onwards. They will leave their infrastructure benefits behind and will go to teamhouses in NA/EU. They have no coaches, they will experience cultural shock much like what foreigners experienced in Korea, they will be so tired due to jetlag and travels, etc. The Koreans can transfer their skill and expertise to NA/EU teams who want to build the infrastructure in NA/EU. Additionally, maybe the NA/EU upstarts can't hope to beat MC/MVP in prime condition. but a jetlagged, cultureshocked, coach-less, teamhouse-less MC and MVP? If you want any hope to become good at least you should aim to beat that. I think the goal is to accelerate the growth of Pro Scene in NA and EU. Kinda like how developing countries invite MNCs to set up factories and initiate technological transfer. How MLS invite Beckham / Henry to raise the profile of the local scene and improve the quality of the league. It all depends on how the local scene responds though. If they see it as an opportunity and rise up to the challenge, this can turn out good. If they gave up and saw Koreans as some insurmountable barriers and decided to just rely on streaming income then well it's bad. Yeah I can see what you mean, but if they do move there and set up a house there, those players are already better than EU/NA players.. so even if what you says happen the EU and NA players and teams still wont get much chance to win that money in order to 'even the keel' so it wouldn't really encourage growth because the team owners/managers wouldn't see any benefit from setting up a house (with all the cost that is involved) when there is little chance of them making any money back. If Koreans weren't allowed to compete it would grantee that money to EU/NA teams allowing them to set up houses and grow mini Seoul's in NA and EU over the next few years. Which then allows the EU/NA scenes to actually be comparable to Koreans who aren't simply born better at Starcraft That's the ideal situation though. But actually what a lot of people feared is that the EU/NA teams will be content to just win the regional WCS since its profitable and lucrative enough and don't bother trying to fight the Koreans since it's too difficult. The separation of scene creates even more inequality since there are no real incentive to improve. There needs to be external threat to push the existing foreigners out of the comfort scene imo. That's why Blizzard wants WCS to be the single most important storyline in WCS. They were not happy about last year how there were WCS Champions and there were GSL champions and so there is no concensus most succesful player of the year. With this format if you are in WCS, you are relevant, otherwise you are not. Yeah, ofc the teams will only want to focus on there own region to win that money... THATS what grows our scenes... if there is no money incentive for teams to exist and grow, whats the point? Well the focus is to challenge the Koreans and not just winning their own region.The money and incentive is there, it's just that EU/NA players have to work hard to earn it and not having it given to them on a silver platter. Anyway, with regards to my point earlier : https://twitter.com/LiquidRet/status/321917949332033537Jos de Kroon @LiquidRet People seem to be very worried about Koreans playing in WCS NA/EU. I feel if they are gone from korea long enough, their advantages are gone So, if the infrastructure is the reason why Koreans are so successful, ultimately there is nothing to fear because they will be leaving their established infrastructure behind. if they want to build new team houses in NA/EU that's great because that will contribute to NA/EU E-sports infrastructure. I am sure some NA/EU progamers/team can learn from there. Again, the presence of Koreans should accelerate skill transfer and infrastructure building.
And the other part of the tweet:
@LiquidRet
So there is absolutely no need to feel that this is unfair, if they get the same practice and still win then who cares?
And thats the spirit
|
On April 10 2013 22:03 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:59 oxxo wrote:On April 10 2013 21:55 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:52 DusTerr wrote:On April 10 2013 21:25 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:19 arkedos wrote:On April 10 2013 21:12 Benjamin99 wrote:
Actually the more I think about the more I think its a good idea if the NA players who live in NA should just boycott the NA WSC to send a clear message to blizzard and reveal that they are only bitchy and cocky because they dont get the money? You can already observe this behaviour in a nut shell when you take a look at the EG house. I mean they have a team house but instead of practising together, sharing builds and work like a team, they are just streaming for themselves over VERY VERY long periods of the day (well which is fine for itself because in that way they can make some money maybe to help to maintain the teamhouse) and it seems that they got a really poor atmosphere at the teamhouse. Stephano once said on his stream: "I whish I had friends on the US that I can practice with". I mean: HELLO you are in a TEAMhouse ? Shouldnt he practice with his TEAMmates? I Like the Idea of EG having a house where players live together but they are not using this infrastructure they have set up. Its nothing near effective like the Korean team houses. This got nothing to do with money but everything to do with the growth of the NA scene. The NA is dead if this is going to happen. And I don't think you or I is in a position to talk about EG and there social well-being as a team. So the NA scene got to make a choice they can either go with it and try to compete but will fail and eventually die out since no sponsors or teams will be interested in NA players. Or they can fight this and simply boycot it to force blizzard to make changes so it require residency to play in the NA WCS On April 10 2013 21:24 Novacute wrote:
At least we'll get great games in ALL qualifiers now. Who gives a shit really. You don't watch the Olympics because the best teams and players are not there in there respective sports?? People with you attitude makes me sick. This is good for the NA scene. Sponsors want exposure. This will bring more exposure. (We're not going to see BW 2.0 because the tournaments are much more accessible to fans in multiple regions.) This isn't the Olympics. Do you think more people watch the world series or the world baseball classic? Good for the NA scene really? Please tell me you trolling or kidding?. You will not find a single NA player who think this is good for the NA scene I can promise you that Only if they just want easy competition/money. It's good for the NA scene in the long run to have actual competition. You post is preposterous. You are simply clueless. This got nothing to do with easy money. This is basically a death stroke to any NA player or any future talent from NA. I expect many NA teams will also avoid sc2. No Sponsors or teams will pay a dime to any NA player simply because the investment is not worth it. Sponsors and teams wants exposure
As long as foreign fans keep rooting for the best foreign player, even if he gets eliminated from the ro16, the viewership numbers will attract sponsors. And as long as foreign fans keep rooting for the best foreign players, the teams will be interested in recruiting the best foreign talent.
|
Well, things were looking up for Blizzard, but not any more. WCS will be just another Korean-dominated tournament.
Koreans shouldn't be able to join NA/EU, unless they physically live there. That's my 2 cents.
Relevant: + Show Spoiler +
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
