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http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1c1wtl/list_of_koreans_switching_to_wcs_eu_or_na/c9c8qs6
MartijnMumbles 2 poäng 8 minuter sen
Normally we don't give insight into how our team functions, but I think this perfectly displays the chaos:
At WesternWolves we were not sure for some of our players what region they would play in until this morning. Arthur played qualifiers this morning, yet we were waiting for his passport to get sorted to book his ticket to EU. For us, 10 days really isn't enough time for us to relocate a chunk of our team. We now have several players sidelined and no clue if and in what events we can use them for the next few months.
The complete lack of clarity, the failure to communicate with teams/players and the ridiculously short timetable are forming an absolute trainwreck.
WCS is a really great initiative. We're all extremely happy with Blizzard evolving WCS again. But the execution is very much lacking. Blizzard and its partners for WCS are failing us.
The fact that certain casters have had information on WCS, yet no one thought to get feedback from players/teams is puzzling. Blizzard and the partners were completely disconnected from the playerbase and community for far too long. Then they proceeded to roll it out with no notice.
Please someone explain to me how you can justify blaming teams for this mess? I don't get the logic of some people...
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I would not go as far as saying GSL is ruined - I just wonder about the business background of this - since Blizzard made both the announcement and the rules with the cooperation with MLG/ESL/GomTV - I do not imagine GomTV managers would go for something they would believe hurt their league.
Are we missing something?
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On April 10 2013 21:35 Escape wrote:
As a casual player and hardcore fan.
What is happening!? I want to see local stories, not another Korean dominated tournaments. I would just watch GSL if I want to see that.
Somehow, I suspect the local tournament organizers have something to do with this 'requirement' of having koreans involved.
What is "local" in the internet era? Is local a guys from your town or a guy from mexico is local? Dont get it. How far local reach?
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I was hoping to see foreigners' souls being crushed along with their overhyped local champions in the world finals but now we don't even get that ;;
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On April 10 2013 21:34 dtz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:23 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:13 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:10 sc2superfan101 wrote:
No my analogy is to explain why I have little sympathy for someone who doesn't succeed because of outside factors like money. It's basically me telling you and everyone else that the "Oh these poor NA players!" or any other emotional argument isn't going to work on me. I work too goddamn hard at a job I don't really like to barely make ends meet to be moved by someone who *gasp* might have to do the same.
The real argument is that this will actually be better for prospective foreign players anyway. Either they work out a way to make it, or they fall away. Those who make it will be that much stronger and more worthy, and their success will mean that much more. Those who don't make it will have tried and failed, and learned something valuable in the process. It will be painful, it will be unpleasant, but in the long term, it is the only legitimate way. reading your posts you seem to be of the thinking that; 1. Your life sucks, so everyone elses should 2. The BW scene that had basically no western followers is what sc2 should aim to be They both seem like pretty legit arguments. My life is amazing. I have so many opportunities that the vast majority of human beings will never have. I consider my job I don't really like to be a blessing. Untold millions would have killed to get a decent job that pays enough for them to live comfortably, if frugally. You're missing the point entirely. I would love to have a world where everybody succeeds at their dream. But that isn't the real world. Either you hand people success, and they never grow; or you force them to fight tooth and nail for success with the very real prospect of failure. Only in the second scenario can you separate the chaff from the wheat, so to speak. Only in the second scenario do people actually grow and learn something. I actually think the proposed region-locks would result in BW 2.0 before turning into something worse: a dead game and dead scene. How so? At the moment because of BW the Korean scene is insane, everything is centered on Seoul the infrastructure is insane, they have coaches lots of team houses all practicing and working together with there own domestic league where they all play and practice for. Outside of Korea there isn't any of that because the rest of the world is pretty big, and so you instead have random team houses here and there with no real relation to anything in particular and little to no infrastructure. Most non-Korean pro's don't live in team houses and don't have access to the environment Korean players do. By allowing Koreans to play in the WSC outside of Korean your killing any chance of that infrastructure to be built up meaning that foreigners for the most part have no realistic chance of being able to compete with Koreans. You should read Catz post if you havn't already, it really highlights everything that is fundamentally wrong with how this is going. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1c1slt/my_views_on_wcsregional_based_leagues_region/If they allowed region locks, you would still have Koreans coming out of Korean for 'easy' money in tournaments etc and the GSL/Pro League would still be the highest level, but it would give the rest of the world the chance to catch up The Koreans who go to NA/EU will play online with significant lag though. And for those going to EU, they will move there i am pretty sure. Or at least RO16 onwards. They will leave their infrastructure benefits behind and will go to teamhouses in NA/EU. They have no coaches, they will experience cultural shock much like what foreigners experienced in Korea, they will be so tired due to jetlag and travels, etc. The Koreans can transfer their skill and expertise to NA/EU teams who want to build the infrastructure in NA/EU. Additionally, maybe the NA/EU upstarts can't hope to beat MC/MVP in prime condition. but a jetlagged, cultureshocked, coach-less, teamhouse-less MC and MVP? If you want any hope to become good at least you should aim to beat that. I think the goal is to accelerate the growth of Pro Scene in NA and EU. Kinda like how developing countries invite MNCs to set up factories and initiate technological transfer. How MLS invite Beckham / Henry to raise the profile of the local scene and improve the quality of the league. It all depends on how the local scene responds though. If they see it as an opportunity and rise up to the challenge, this can turn out good. If they gave up and saw Koreans as some insurmountable barriers and decided to just rely on streaming income then well it's bad.
Yeah I can see what you mean, but if they do move there and set up a house there, those players are already better than EU/NA players.. so even if what you says happen the EU and NA players and teams still wont get much chance to win that money in order to 'even the keel' so it wouldn't really encourage growth because the team owners/managers wouldn't see any benefit from setting up a house (with all the cost that is involved) when there is little chance of them making any money back.
If Koreans weren't allowed to compete it would grantee that money to EU/NA teams allowing them to set up houses and grow mini Seoul's in NA and EU over the next few years. Which then allows the EU/NA scenes to actually be comparable to Koreans who aren't simply born better at Starcraft
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On April 10 2013 18:08 Laryleprakon wrote:
I wonder how many of the EU guys will move!
NA is crazy stacked.
only the ones live in US like demuslim and thorzain will play usa for sure ... why should an european go us where you have 1 million koreans ^^^then better cheese mc and mvp
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On April 10 2013 21:27 Greentellon wrote:I've said this somewhere but I'll repeat myself. Have you ever read about placebo effect? There is also its counterpart: nocebo effect. Basically: you believe a completely harmless pill will cause harmful effect, thus you actually can feel physical, mental and emotional effects. There are no chemicals at work: these real effects are caused your belief and belief alone. When you talk and think about koreans as some kind of SC2 master-race, then you have subconsciously already given up and you might as well surrender the match. You are not going to win, because you have already decided to lose. Step #1: stop thinking about yourself as an inferior player Step #2: find a way to be better than them
Step #3 Realize you can not practice against opponents anywhere close korean level all day, let alone practice as efficiently against opponents of that level (aka living in the same house and speaking the same language).
Step #4 Accept the fact that koreans will reign supreme in this game forever.
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I wonder if most Koreans picked NA because it was easier than Europe, now NA will be way harder 
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On April 10 2013 21:40 Yegwen wrote:
I would not go as far as saying GSL is ruined - I just wonder about the business background of this - since Blizzard made both the announcement and the rules with the cooperation with MLG/ESL/GomTV - I do not imagine GomTV managers would go for something they would believe hurt their league.
Are we missing something?
your missing the millions Gom gets from Blizzard you cant say no when someone helps you with millions of $$$
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On April 10 2013 21:38 Greentellon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:31 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:27 Greentellon wrote:I've said this somewhere but I'll repeat myself. Have you ever read about placebo effect? There is also its counterpart: nocebo effect. Basically: you believe a completely harmless pill will cause harmful effect, thus you actually can feel physical, mental and emotional effects. There are no chemicals at work: these real effects are caused your belief and belief alone. When you talk and think about koreans as some kind of SC2 master-race, then you have subconsciously already given up and you might as well surrender the match. You are not going to win, because you have already decided that in your mind. Step #1: stop thinking about yourself as an inferior player Step #2: find a way to be better than them That´s all fine but what you going to do if you are a new upcoming NA player who cant get sponsorships or teams because there is no point to sponsor a player who will never get any exposure? You want them to live on the street with a laptop playing WCS NC and hope there opponents get disconnects? This thread is full of people who have already decided that Koreans will win everything. I'm just saying, we have already given up hope for "foreigners". And because we believe that we might aswell lie down and let Koreans take all of the money. Nothing will change until someone believes it can be changed.
I get you point but what you are asking for is impossible atm with this format and the infrastructure in NA. Its like saying go beat Georges St. Pierre in the UFC you just have to train hard enough and you can do it. It simply wont happen it takes alot of time and money to create an infrastructure. the NA scene is basically dead
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On April 10 2013 21:43 Ryps wrote:I wonder if most Koreans picked NA because it was easier than Europe, now NA will be way harder
I am sure the reasons are sponsor-wise for the teams, but also the lag from EU to korea is bigger than from NA.
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On April 10 2013 21:40 Kergy wrote:
I was hoping to see foreigners' souls being crushed along with their overhyped local champions in the world finals but now we don't even get that ;;
Now you'll get to see them crushed in the qualifiers. Even better.
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On April 10 2013 21:31 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:27 Greentellon wrote:I've said this somewhere but I'll repeat myself. Have you ever read about placebo effect? There is also its counterpart: nocebo effect. Basically: you believe a completely harmless pill will cause harmful effect, thus you actually can feel physical, mental and emotional effects. There are no chemicals at work: these real effects are caused your belief and belief alone. When you talk and think about koreans as some kind of SC2 master-race, then you have subconsciously already given up and you might as well surrender the match. You are not going to win, because you have already decided that in your mind. Step #1: stop thinking about yourself as an inferior player Step #2: find a way to be better than them That´s all fine but what you going to do if you are a new upcoming NA player who cant get sponsorships or teams because there is no point to sponsor a player who will never get any exposure? You want them to live on the street with a laptop playing WCS NC and hope there opponents get disconnects?
Where do you get the idea they won't get any exposure? 2012 was a year where most foreign tournaments was won by Koreans. How is this much difference? It's also ignoring any league or tournament outside of the WCS that somehow have disappeared from people's minds. It's not a perfect system but I don't get the defeatist attitude when it's clearly not just doom and gloom if you think a little further than the gut feeling.
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i really wanna hear what artosis says about this
saying always korea is the main thing and that the gsl is best but without THAT amound of godlikes (i mean come on jaedong mvp mc nestea ... not even gsl can take that hit easy)
for me it seems the kespa teams went to GSL and the ESF to us/eu
also artosis said no BIG player will switch for sure no iglm etc and now seeing MPV MC NEstea etc no more in GSL ... i rly wanna hear him
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This is such a mess. All this and the pay off is just another weekend tournament.
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On April 10 2013 21:41 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:34 dtz wrote:On April 10 2013 21:23 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:13 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:10 sc2superfan101 wrote:
No my analogy is to explain why I have little sympathy for someone who doesn't succeed because of outside factors like money. It's basically me telling you and everyone else that the "Oh these poor NA players!" or any other emotional argument isn't going to work on me. I work too goddamn hard at a job I don't really like to barely make ends meet to be moved by someone who *gasp* might have to do the same.
The real argument is that this will actually be better for prospective foreign players anyway. Either they work out a way to make it, or they fall away. Those who make it will be that much stronger and more worthy, and their success will mean that much more. Those who don't make it will have tried and failed, and learned something valuable in the process. It will be painful, it will be unpleasant, but in the long term, it is the only legitimate way. reading your posts you seem to be of the thinking that; 1. Your life sucks, so everyone elses should 2. The BW scene that had basically no western followers is what sc2 should aim to be They both seem like pretty legit arguments. My life is amazing. I have so many opportunities that the vast majority of human beings will never have. I consider my job I don't really like to be a blessing. Untold millions would have killed to get a decent job that pays enough for them to live comfortably, if frugally. You're missing the point entirely. I would love to have a world where everybody succeeds at their dream. But that isn't the real world. Either you hand people success, and they never grow; or you force them to fight tooth and nail for success with the very real prospect of failure. Only in the second scenario can you separate the chaff from the wheat, so to speak. Only in the second scenario do people actually grow and learn something. I actually think the proposed region-locks would result in BW 2.0 before turning into something worse: a dead game and dead scene. How so? At the moment because of BW the Korean scene is insane, everything is centered on Seoul the infrastructure is insane, they have coaches lots of team houses all practicing and working together with there own domestic league where they all play and practice for. Outside of Korea there isn't any of that because the rest of the world is pretty big, and so you instead have random team houses here and there with no real relation to anything in particular and little to no infrastructure. Most non-Korean pro's don't live in team houses and don't have access to the environment Korean players do. By allowing Koreans to play in the WSC outside of Korean your killing any chance of that infrastructure to be built up meaning that foreigners for the most part have no realistic chance of being able to compete with Koreans. You should read Catz post if you havn't already, it really highlights everything that is fundamentally wrong with how this is going. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1c1slt/my_views_on_wcsregional_based_leagues_region/If they allowed region locks, you would still have Koreans coming out of Korean for 'easy' money in tournaments etc and the GSL/Pro League would still be the highest level, but it would give the rest of the world the chance to catch up The Koreans who go to NA/EU will play online with significant lag though. And for those going to EU, they will move there i am pretty sure. Or at least RO16 onwards. They will leave their infrastructure benefits behind and will go to teamhouses in NA/EU. They have no coaches, they will experience cultural shock much like what foreigners experienced in Korea, they will be so tired due to jetlag and travels, etc. The Koreans can transfer their skill and expertise to NA/EU teams who want to build the infrastructure in NA/EU. Additionally, maybe the NA/EU upstarts can't hope to beat MC/MVP in prime condition. but a jetlagged, cultureshocked, coach-less, teamhouse-less MC and MVP? If you want any hope to become good at least you should aim to beat that. I think the goal is to accelerate the growth of Pro Scene in NA and EU. Kinda like how developing countries invite MNCs to set up factories and initiate technological transfer. How MLS invite Beckham / Henry to raise the profile of the local scene and improve the quality of the league. It all depends on how the local scene responds though. If they see it as an opportunity and rise up to the challenge, this can turn out good. If they gave up and saw Koreans as some insurmountable barriers and decided to just rely on streaming income then well it's bad. Yeah I can see what you mean, but if they do move there and set up a house there, those players are already better than EU/NA players.. so even if what you says happen the EU and NA players and teams still wont get much chance to win that money in order to 'even the keel' so it wouldn't really encourage growth because the team owners/managers wouldn't see any benefit from setting up a house (with all the cost that is involved) when there is little chance of them making any money back. If Koreans weren't allowed to compete it would grantee that money to EU/NA teams allowing them to set up houses and grow mini Seoul's in NA and EU over the next few years. Which then allows the EU/NA scenes to actually be comparable to Koreans who aren't simply born better at Starcraft
Well but team's arent making mini Seoul's anyway. The only team with a real house is EG, i cant belive that other teams cannot do this. Practice is everything, and koreans are ready to stop everything to practice, foreigners aren't. There's a lot of koreans better than BabyKnight, and they never won any money in tournament. They just sit and practice in houses in B teams or sth. If you wanna be a proplayer in any sport you need to practice first and later expect money not the other way.
//Lol i quoted my post instead editing :/ sorry for that
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Live on 3 should be very, very interesting today.
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On April 10 2013 21:46 CoR wrote:
i really wanna hear what artosis says about this
saying always korea is the main thing and that the gsl is best but without THAT amound of godlikes (i mean come on jaedong mvp mc nestea ... not even gsl can take that hit easy)
for me it seems the kespa teams went to GSL and the ESF to us/eu
also artosis said no BIG player will switch for sure no iglm etc and now seeing MPV MC NEstea etc no more in GSL ... i rly wanna hear him
Lolwhat ? Where have you been the last couple of GSLs ?
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On April 10 2013 21:34 dtz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:23 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:13 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:10 sc2superfan101 wrote:
No my analogy is to explain why I have little sympathy for someone who doesn't succeed because of outside factors like money. It's basically me telling you and everyone else that the "Oh these poor NA players!" or any other emotional argument isn't going to work on me. I work too goddamn hard at a job I don't really like to barely make ends meet to be moved by someone who *gasp* might have to do the same.
The real argument is that this will actually be better for prospective foreign players anyway. Either they work out a way to make it, or they fall away. Those who make it will be that much stronger and more worthy, and their success will mean that much more. Those who don't make it will have tried and failed, and learned something valuable in the process. It will be painful, it will be unpleasant, but in the long term, it is the only legitimate way. reading your posts you seem to be of the thinking that; 1. Your life sucks, so everyone elses should 2. The BW scene that had basically no western followers is what sc2 should aim to be They both seem like pretty legit arguments. My life is amazing. I have so many opportunities that the vast majority of human beings will never have. I consider my job I don't really like to be a blessing. Untold millions would have killed to get a decent job that pays enough for them to live comfortably, if frugally. You're missing the point entirely. I would love to have a world where everybody succeeds at their dream. But that isn't the real world. Either you hand people success, and they never grow; or you force them to fight tooth and nail for success with the very real prospect of failure. Only in the second scenario can you separate the chaff from the wheat, so to speak. Only in the second scenario do people actually grow and learn something. I actually think the proposed region-locks would result in BW 2.0 before turning into something worse: a dead game and dead scene. How so? At the moment because of BW the Korean scene is insane, everything is centered on Seoul the infrastructure is insane, they have coaches lots of team houses all practicing and working together with there own domestic league where they all play and practice for. Outside of Korea there isn't any of that because the rest of the world is pretty big, and so you instead have random team houses here and there with no real relation to anything in particular and little to no infrastructure. Most non-Korean pro's don't live in team houses and don't have access to the environment Korean players do. By allowing Koreans to play in the WSC outside of Korean your killing any chance of that infrastructure to be built up meaning that foreigners for the most part have no realistic chance of being able to compete with Koreans. You should read Catz post if you havn't already, it really highlights everything that is fundamentally wrong with how this is going. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1c1slt/my_views_on_wcsregional_based_leagues_region/If they allowed region locks, you would still have Koreans coming out of Korean for 'easy' money in tournaments etc and the GSL/Pro League would still be the highest level, but it would give the rest of the world the chance to catch up The Koreans who go to NA/EU will play online with significant lag though. And for those going to EU, they will move there i am pretty sure. Or at least RO16 onwards. They will leave their infrastructure benefits behind and will go to teamhouses in NA/EU. They have no coaches, they will experience cultural shock much like what foreigners experienced in Korea, they will be so tired due to jetlag and travels, etc. The Koreans can transfer their skill and expertise to NA/EU teams who want to build the infrastructure in NA/EU. Additionally, maybe the NA/EU upstarts can't hope to beat MC/MVP in prime condition. but a jetlagged, cultureshocked, coach-less, teamhouse-less MC and MVP? If you want any hope to become good at least you should aim to beat that. I think the goal is to accelerate the growth of Pro Scene in NA and EU. Kinda like how developing countries invite MNCs to set up factories and initiate technological transfer. How MLS invite Beckham / Henry to raise the profile of the local scene and improve the quality of the league. It all depends on how the local scene responds though. If they see it as an opportunity and rise up to the challenge, this can turn out good. If they gave up and saw Koreans as some insurmountable barriers and decided to just rely on streaming income then well it's bad.
If you wanted Beckham and Henry, you'd have to get Nada and Boxer to move to the US. Instead you have Tottenham, Chelsea, Liverpool, Everton, Arsenal, Fulham, Swansea, West Ham, Newcastle, Southampton and West Bromwich flying from England to the US every weekend to play their games in a league where 11 of the 19 US teams had to be relegated to make room for the new English acquisitions. :D
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EPT
