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Wow. Uhhhh I defended the system for so long because it didn't seem that possible for a mass exodus of Korean players but now that it's happening in NA Im not liking this system anymore.
A. How are all the Koreans in top 8 in NA going to afford their trips to studio?
B. This devalues GSL so much and really screws with the idea IMO. I guess region lock should have been done after all.
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On April 10 2013 21:48 Wingblade wrote:
Wow. Uhhhh I defended the system for so long because it didn't seem that possible for a mass exodus of Korean players but now that it's happening in NA Im not liking this system anymore.
A. How are all the Koreans in top 8 in NA going to afford their trips to studio?
B. This devalues GSL so much and really screws with the idea IMO. I guess region lock should have been done after all.
The OP should add that information to be honest. There are no trips, till ro16 is online, and as far i know (correct me if i am wrong) , ro16,ro8,ro4 and finals are a one weekend deal.
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On April 10 2013 21:45 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:43 Ryps wrote:I wonder if most Koreans picked NA because it was easier than Europe, now NA will be way harder  I am sure the reasons are sponsor-wise for the teams, but also the lag from EU to korea is bigger than from NA.
Harstem tweeted earlier that the Koreans have no chance of getting through the EU qualifiers if they have to play on EU server. I'm inclined to believe him since he probably has more experience on playing cross sever at a high level.
Makes me wonder if players like MC will relocate to EU for longer periods of time, to play the qualifiers as well. SK should be able to provide him that possibility at least.
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On April 10 2013 21:46 CoR wrote:
i really wanna hear what artosis says about this
saying always korea is the main thing and that the gsl is best but without THAT amound of godlikes (i mean come on jaedong mvp mc nestea ... not even gsl can take that hit easy)
for me it seems the kespa teams went to GSL and the ESF to us/eu
also artosis said no BIG player will switch for sure no iglm etc and now seeing MPV MC NEstea etc no more in GSL ... i rly wanna hear him
None of the players you mentioned is now in code S. MC just got dropped so...
I agree the names are big, but there are better players nowadays.
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On April 10 2013 21:43 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:40 Yegwen wrote:
I would not go as far as saying GSL is ruined - I just wonder about the business background of this - since Blizzard made both the announcement and the rules with the cooperation with MLG/ESL/GomTV - I do not imagine GomTV managers would go for something they would believe hurt their league.
Are we missing something? your missing the millions Gom gets from Blizzard you cant say no when someone helps you with millions of $$$
and its saving their non-kespa teams in the long run, even former stars like mc, mvp and nestea are forced to move out of korea...
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On April 10 2013 21:50 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:45 Godwrath wrote:On April 10 2013 21:43 Ryps wrote:I wonder if most Koreans picked NA because it was easier than Europe, now NA will be way harder I am sure the reasons are sponsor-wise for the teams, but also the lag from EU to korea is bigger than from NA. Harstem tweeted earlier that the Koreans have no chance of getting through the EU qualifiers if they have to play on EU server. I'm inclined to believe him since he probably has more experience on playing cross sever at a high level. Makes me wonder if players like MC will relocate to EU for longer periods of time, to play the qualifiers as well. SK should be able to provide him that possibility at least.
Yes, i can see for the Koreans going to EU having that option (SK-LGIM partnership should work for MVP aswell, but i am just thinking out loud there), and some of them are already living on Europe. Most of the koreans playing NA are a totally different thing, since they will probably stay on korea as far we know.
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On April 10 2013 21:25 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:19 arkedos wrote:On April 10 2013 21:12 Benjamin99 wrote:
Actually the more I think about the more I think its a good idea if the NA players who live in NA should just boycott the NA WSC to send a clear message to blizzard and reveal that they are only bitchy and cocky because they dont get the money? You can already observe this behaviour in a nut shell when you take a look at the EG house. I mean they have a team house but instead of practising together, sharing builds and work like a team, they are just streaming for themselves over VERY VERY long periods of the day (well which is fine for itself because in that way they can make some money maybe to help to maintain the teamhouse) and it seems that they got a really poor atmosphere at the teamhouse. Stephano once said on his stream: "I whish I had friends on the US that I can practice with". I mean: HELLO you are in a TEAMhouse ? Shouldnt he practice with his TEAMmates? I Like the Idea of EG having a house where players live together but they are not using this infrastructure they have set up. Its nothing near effective like the Korean team houses. This got nothing to do with money but everything to do with the growth of the NA scene. The NA is dead if this is going to happen. And I don't think you or I is in a position to talk about EG and there social well-being as a team. So the NA scene got to make a choice they can either go with it and try to compete but will fail and eventually die out since no sponsors or teams will be interested in NA players. Or they can fight this and simply boycot it to force blizzard to make changes so it require residency to play in the NA WCS Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:24 Novacute wrote:
At least we'll get great games in ALL qualifiers now. Who gives a shit really. You don't watch the Olympics because the best teams and players are not there in there respective sports?? People with you attitude makes me sick.
This is good for the NA scene. Sponsors want exposure. This will bring more exposure. (We're not going to see BW 2.0 because the tournaments are much more accessible to fans in multiple regions.)
This isn't the Olympics. Do you think more people watch the world series or the world baseball classic?
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On April 10 2013 18:28 Hall0wed wrote:
Surprised that more Koreans didn't go to EU. EU is always the easiest region since there are always less Koreans involved there.
One word
L A G
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On April 10 2013 21:47 Kylo55 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:41 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:34 dtz wrote:On April 10 2013 21:23 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:13 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:10 sc2superfan101 wrote:
No my analogy is to explain why I have little sympathy for someone who doesn't succeed because of outside factors like money. It's basically me telling you and everyone else that the "Oh these poor NA players!" or any other emotional argument isn't going to work on me. I work too goddamn hard at a job I don't really like to barely make ends meet to be moved by someone who *gasp* might have to do the same.
The real argument is that this will actually be better for prospective foreign players anyway. Either they work out a way to make it, or they fall away. Those who make it will be that much stronger and more worthy, and their success will mean that much more. Those who don't make it will have tried and failed, and learned something valuable in the process. It will be painful, it will be unpleasant, but in the long term, it is the only legitimate way. reading your posts you seem to be of the thinking that; 1. Your life sucks, so everyone elses should 2. The BW scene that had basically no western followers is what sc2 should aim to be They both seem like pretty legit arguments. My life is amazing. I have so many opportunities that the vast majority of human beings will never have. I consider my job I don't really like to be a blessing. Untold millions would have killed to get a decent job that pays enough for them to live comfortably, if frugally. You're missing the point entirely. I would love to have a world where everybody succeeds at their dream. But that isn't the real world. Either you hand people success, and they never grow; or you force them to fight tooth and nail for success with the very real prospect of failure. Only in the second scenario can you separate the chaff from the wheat, so to speak. Only in the second scenario do people actually grow and learn something. I actually think the proposed region-locks would result in BW 2.0 before turning into something worse: a dead game and dead scene. How so? At the moment because of BW the Korean scene is insane, everything is centered on Seoul the infrastructure is insane, they have coaches lots of team houses all practicing and working together with there own domestic league where they all play and practice for. Outside of Korea there isn't any of that because the rest of the world is pretty big, and so you instead have random team houses here and there with no real relation to anything in particular and little to no infrastructure. Most non-Korean pro's don't live in team houses and don't have access to the environment Korean players do. By allowing Koreans to play in the WSC outside of Korean your killing any chance of that infrastructure to be built up meaning that foreigners for the most part have no realistic chance of being able to compete with Koreans. You should read Catz post if you havn't already, it really highlights everything that is fundamentally wrong with how this is going. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1c1slt/my_views_on_wcsregional_based_leagues_region/If they allowed region locks, you would still have Koreans coming out of Korean for 'easy' money in tournaments etc and the GSL/Pro League would still be the highest level, but it would give the rest of the world the chance to catch up The Koreans who go to NA/EU will play online with significant lag though. And for those going to EU, they will move there i am pretty sure. Or at least RO16 onwards. They will leave their infrastructure benefits behind and will go to teamhouses in NA/EU. They have no coaches, they will experience cultural shock much like what foreigners experienced in Korea, they will be so tired due to jetlag and travels, etc. The Koreans can transfer their skill and expertise to NA/EU teams who want to build the infrastructure in NA/EU. Additionally, maybe the NA/EU upstarts can't hope to beat MC/MVP in prime condition. but a jetlagged, cultureshocked, coach-less, teamhouse-less MC and MVP? If you want any hope to become good at least you should aim to beat that. I think the goal is to accelerate the growth of Pro Scene in NA and EU. Kinda like how developing countries invite MNCs to set up factories and initiate technological transfer. How MLS invite Beckham / Henry to raise the profile of the local scene and improve the quality of the league. It all depends on how the local scene responds though. If they see it as an opportunity and rise up to the challenge, this can turn out good. If they gave up and saw Koreans as some insurmountable barriers and decided to just rely on streaming income then well it's bad. Yeah I can see what you mean, but if they do move there and set up a house there, those players are already better than EU/NA players.. so even if what you says happen the EU and NA players and teams still wont get much chance to win that money in order to 'even the keel' so it wouldn't really encourage growth because the team owners/managers wouldn't see any benefit from setting up a house (with all the cost that is involved) when there is little chance of them making any money back. If Koreans weren't allowed to compete it would grantee that money to EU/NA teams allowing them to set up houses and grow mini Seoul's in NA and EU over the next few years. Which then allows the EU/NA scenes to actually be comparable to Koreans who aren't simply born better at Starcraft Well but team's arent making mini Seoul's anyway. The only team with a real house is EG, i cant belive that other teams cannot do this. Practice is everything, and koreans are ready to stop everything to practice, foreigners aren't. There's a lot of koreans better than BabyKnight, and they never won any money in tournament. They just sit and practice in houses in B teams or sth. If you wanna be a proplayer in any sport you need to practice first and later expect money not the other way. //Lol i quoted my post instead editing :/ sorry for that
Yeah and why aren't they all making team houses?
Because there is no one place where all the tournaments for that region take place (unlike Korea) and because Koreans compete and win most foreign tournaments there isn't any way for teams to make the money back on a team house (excluding advertising) unless they stream 24/7 like EG is having to do, which then hurts you in competition because there are then thousands of hours of you practicing on ladder for other people to study.
Having this region locked would allow the foreign teams to have a steady strong source of income that isn't the very fickle advertising model the whole industry seems to be based on and allow the non-korean scene to grow and exist, so sure maybe when LotV is out they can open it up and have a true region free WSC where euro's/yanks and koreans are all even in skill and infrastructure.
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On April 10 2013 21:52 DusTerr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:25 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:19 arkedos wrote:On April 10 2013 21:12 Benjamin99 wrote:
Actually the more I think about the more I think its a good idea if the NA players who live in NA should just boycott the NA WSC to send a clear message to blizzard and reveal that they are only bitchy and cocky because they dont get the money? You can already observe this behaviour in a nut shell when you take a look at the EG house. I mean they have a team house but instead of practising together, sharing builds and work like a team, they are just streaming for themselves over VERY VERY long periods of the day (well which is fine for itself because in that way they can make some money maybe to help to maintain the teamhouse) and it seems that they got a really poor atmosphere at the teamhouse. Stephano once said on his stream: "I whish I had friends on the US that I can practice with". I mean: HELLO you are in a TEAMhouse ? Shouldnt he practice with his TEAMmates? I Like the Idea of EG having a house where players live together but they are not using this infrastructure they have set up. Its nothing near effective like the Korean team houses. This got nothing to do with money but everything to do with the growth of the NA scene. The NA is dead if this is going to happen. And I don't think you or I is in a position to talk about EG and there social well-being as a team. So the NA scene got to make a choice they can either go with it and try to compete but will fail and eventually die out since no sponsors or teams will be interested in NA players. Or they can fight this and simply boycot it to force blizzard to make changes so it require residency to play in the NA WCS On April 10 2013 21:24 Novacute wrote:
At least we'll get great games in ALL qualifiers now. Who gives a shit really. You don't watch the Olympics because the best teams and players are not there in there respective sports?? People with you attitude makes me sick. This is good for the NA scene. Sponsors want exposure. This will bring more exposure. (We're not going to see BW 2.0 because the tournaments are much more accessible to fans in multiple regions.) This isn't the Olympics. Do you think more people watch the world series or the world baseball classic?
From a football experience, more people watch the world championship than champion's league, or the most stacked leagues, so yeah.
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On April 10 2013 21:52 DusTerr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:25 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:19 arkedos wrote:On April 10 2013 21:12 Benjamin99 wrote:
Actually the more I think about the more I think its a good idea if the NA players who live in NA should just boycott the NA WSC to send a clear message to blizzard and reveal that they are only bitchy and cocky because they dont get the money? You can already observe this behaviour in a nut shell when you take a look at the EG house. I mean they have a team house but instead of practising together, sharing builds and work like a team, they are just streaming for themselves over VERY VERY long periods of the day (well which is fine for itself because in that way they can make some money maybe to help to maintain the teamhouse) and it seems that they got a really poor atmosphere at the teamhouse. Stephano once said on his stream: "I whish I had friends on the US that I can practice with". I mean: HELLO you are in a TEAMhouse ? Shouldnt he practice with his TEAMmates? I Like the Idea of EG having a house where players live together but they are not using this infrastructure they have set up. Its nothing near effective like the Korean team houses. This got nothing to do with money but everything to do with the growth of the NA scene. The NA is dead if this is going to happen. And I don't think you or I is in a position to talk about EG and there social well-being as a team. So the NA scene got to make a choice they can either go with it and try to compete but will fail and eventually die out since no sponsors or teams will be interested in NA players. Or they can fight this and simply boycot it to force blizzard to make changes so it require residency to play in the NA WCS On April 10 2013 21:24 Novacute wrote:
At least we'll get great games in ALL qualifiers now. Who gives a shit really. You don't watch the Olympics because the best teams and players are not there in there respective sports?? People with you attitude makes me sick. This is good for the NA scene. Sponsors want exposure. This will bring more exposure. (We're not going to see BW 2.0 because the tournaments are much more accessible to fans in multiple regions.) This isn't the Olympics. Do you think more people watch the world series or the world baseball classic?
Good for the NA scene really? Please tell me you trolling or kidding?. You will not find a single NA player who think this is good for the NA scene I can promise you that
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On April 10 2013 21:41 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:34 dtz wrote:On April 10 2013 21:23 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:13 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:10 sc2superfan101 wrote:
No my analogy is to explain why I have little sympathy for someone who doesn't succeed because of outside factors like money. It's basically me telling you and everyone else that the "Oh these poor NA players!" or any other emotional argument isn't going to work on me. I work too goddamn hard at a job I don't really like to barely make ends meet to be moved by someone who *gasp* might have to do the same.
The real argument is that this will actually be better for prospective foreign players anyway. Either they work out a way to make it, or they fall away. Those who make it will be that much stronger and more worthy, and their success will mean that much more. Those who don't make it will have tried and failed, and learned something valuable in the process. It will be painful, it will be unpleasant, but in the long term, it is the only legitimate way. reading your posts you seem to be of the thinking that; 1. Your life sucks, so everyone elses should 2. The BW scene that had basically no western followers is what sc2 should aim to be They both seem like pretty legit arguments. My life is amazing. I have so many opportunities that the vast majority of human beings will never have. I consider my job I don't really like to be a blessing. Untold millions would have killed to get a decent job that pays enough for them to live comfortably, if frugally. You're missing the point entirely. I would love to have a world where everybody succeeds at their dream. But that isn't the real world. Either you hand people success, and they never grow; or you force them to fight tooth and nail for success with the very real prospect of failure. Only in the second scenario can you separate the chaff from the wheat, so to speak. Only in the second scenario do people actually grow and learn something. I actually think the proposed region-locks would result in BW 2.0 before turning into something worse: a dead game and dead scene. How so? At the moment because of BW the Korean scene is insane, everything is centered on Seoul the infrastructure is insane, they have coaches lots of team houses all practicing and working together with there own domestic league where they all play and practice for. Outside of Korea there isn't any of that because the rest of the world is pretty big, and so you instead have random team houses here and there with no real relation to anything in particular and little to no infrastructure. Most non-Korean pro's don't live in team houses and don't have access to the environment Korean players do. By allowing Koreans to play in the WSC outside of Korean your killing any chance of that infrastructure to be built up meaning that foreigners for the most part have no realistic chance of being able to compete with Koreans. You should read Catz post if you havn't already, it really highlights everything that is fundamentally wrong with how this is going. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1c1slt/my_views_on_wcsregional_based_leagues_region/If they allowed region locks, you would still have Koreans coming out of Korean for 'easy' money in tournaments etc and the GSL/Pro League would still be the highest level, but it would give the rest of the world the chance to catch up The Koreans who go to NA/EU will play online with significant lag though. And for those going to EU, they will move there i am pretty sure. Or at least RO16 onwards. They will leave their infrastructure benefits behind and will go to teamhouses in NA/EU. They have no coaches, they will experience cultural shock much like what foreigners experienced in Korea, they will be so tired due to jetlag and travels, etc. The Koreans can transfer their skill and expertise to NA/EU teams who want to build the infrastructure in NA/EU. Additionally, maybe the NA/EU upstarts can't hope to beat MC/MVP in prime condition. but a jetlagged, cultureshocked, coach-less, teamhouse-less MC and MVP? If you want any hope to become good at least you should aim to beat that. I think the goal is to accelerate the growth of Pro Scene in NA and EU. Kinda like how developing countries invite MNCs to set up factories and initiate technological transfer. How MLS invite Beckham / Henry to raise the profile of the local scene and improve the quality of the league. It all depends on how the local scene responds though. If they see it as an opportunity and rise up to the challenge, this can turn out good. If they gave up and saw Koreans as some insurmountable barriers and decided to just rely on streaming income then well it's bad. Yeah I can see what you mean, but if they do move there and set up a house there, those players are already better than EU/NA players.. so even if what you says happen the EU and NA players and teams still wont get much chance to win that money in order to 'even the keel' so it wouldn't really encourage growth because the team owners/managers wouldn't see any benefit from setting up a house (with all the cost that is involved) when there is little chance of them making any money back. If Koreans weren't allowed to compete it would grantee that money to EU/NA teams allowing them to set up houses and grow mini Seoul's in NA and EU over the next few years. Which then allows the EU/NA scenes to actually be comparable to Koreans who aren't simply born better at Starcraft
That's the ideal situation though. But actually what a lot of people feared is that the EU/NA teams will be content to just win the regional WCS since its profitable and lucrative enough and don't bother trying to fight the Koreans since it's too difficult. The separation of scene creates even more inequality since there are no real incentive to improve.
There needs to be external threat to push the existing foreigners out of the comfort scene imo. That's why Blizzard wants WCS to be the single most important storyline in SC2 They were not happy about last year how there were WCS Champions and there were GSL champions and so there is no concensus most succesful player of the year. With this format if you are in WCS, you are relevant, otherwise you are not. To be succesful, someone has to be in WCS and cannot be content just streaming and being interesting personalities.
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I personally never liked how the EU/NA WCS have the same prize pool. IdrA beating Vibe is equivalent prize money/WCS points wise to Flash beating Innovation and it shouldn't be like that. Moreover I wouldn't watch the NA/EU WCS without koreans so I don't mind this. However, I guess I understand that especially NA players are pissed because they won't have access to free money
It will be interesting to see what will happen in the future
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On April 10 2013 21:56 dtz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:41 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:34 dtz wrote:On April 10 2013 21:23 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:13 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:10 sc2superfan101 wrote:
No my analogy is to explain why I have little sympathy for someone who doesn't succeed because of outside factors like money. It's basically me telling you and everyone else that the "Oh these poor NA players!" or any other emotional argument isn't going to work on me. I work too goddamn hard at a job I don't really like to barely make ends meet to be moved by someone who *gasp* might have to do the same.
The real argument is that this will actually be better for prospective foreign players anyway. Either they work out a way to make it, or they fall away. Those who make it will be that much stronger and more worthy, and their success will mean that much more. Those who don't make it will have tried and failed, and learned something valuable in the process. It will be painful, it will be unpleasant, but in the long term, it is the only legitimate way. reading your posts you seem to be of the thinking that; 1. Your life sucks, so everyone elses should 2. The BW scene that had basically no western followers is what sc2 should aim to be They both seem like pretty legit arguments. My life is amazing. I have so many opportunities that the vast majority of human beings will never have. I consider my job I don't really like to be a blessing. Untold millions would have killed to get a decent job that pays enough for them to live comfortably, if frugally. You're missing the point entirely. I would love to have a world where everybody succeeds at their dream. But that isn't the real world. Either you hand people success, and they never grow; or you force them to fight tooth and nail for success with the very real prospect of failure. Only in the second scenario can you separate the chaff from the wheat, so to speak. Only in the second scenario do people actually grow and learn something. I actually think the proposed region-locks would result in BW 2.0 before turning into something worse: a dead game and dead scene. How so? At the moment because of BW the Korean scene is insane, everything is centered on Seoul the infrastructure is insane, they have coaches lots of team houses all practicing and working together with there own domestic league where they all play and practice for. Outside of Korea there isn't any of that because the rest of the world is pretty big, and so you instead have random team houses here and there with no real relation to anything in particular and little to no infrastructure. Most non-Korean pro's don't live in team houses and don't have access to the environment Korean players do. By allowing Koreans to play in the WSC outside of Korean your killing any chance of that infrastructure to be built up meaning that foreigners for the most part have no realistic chance of being able to compete with Koreans. You should read Catz post if you havn't already, it really highlights everything that is fundamentally wrong with how this is going. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1c1slt/my_views_on_wcsregional_based_leagues_region/If they allowed region locks, you would still have Koreans coming out of Korean for 'easy' money in tournaments etc and the GSL/Pro League would still be the highest level, but it would give the rest of the world the chance to catch up The Koreans who go to NA/EU will play online with significant lag though. And for those going to EU, they will move there i am pretty sure. Or at least RO16 onwards. They will leave their infrastructure benefits behind and will go to teamhouses in NA/EU. They have no coaches, they will experience cultural shock much like what foreigners experienced in Korea, they will be so tired due to jetlag and travels, etc. The Koreans can transfer their skill and expertise to NA/EU teams who want to build the infrastructure in NA/EU. Additionally, maybe the NA/EU upstarts can't hope to beat MC/MVP in prime condition. but a jetlagged, cultureshocked, coach-less, teamhouse-less MC and MVP? If you want any hope to become good at least you should aim to beat that. I think the goal is to accelerate the growth of Pro Scene in NA and EU. Kinda like how developing countries invite MNCs to set up factories and initiate technological transfer. How MLS invite Beckham / Henry to raise the profile of the local scene and improve the quality of the league. It all depends on how the local scene responds though. If they see it as an opportunity and rise up to the challenge, this can turn out good. If they gave up and saw Koreans as some insurmountable barriers and decided to just rely on streaming income then well it's bad. Yeah I can see what you mean, but if they do move there and set up a house there, those players are already better than EU/NA players.. so even if what you says happen the EU and NA players and teams still wont get much chance to win that money in order to 'even the keel' so it wouldn't really encourage growth because the team owners/managers wouldn't see any benefit from setting up a house (with all the cost that is involved) when there is little chance of them making any money back. If Koreans weren't allowed to compete it would grantee that money to EU/NA teams allowing them to set up houses and grow mini Seoul's in NA and EU over the next few years. Which then allows the EU/NA scenes to actually be comparable to Koreans who aren't simply born better at Starcraft That's the ideal situation though. But actually what a lot of people feared is that the EU/NA teams will be content to just win the regional WCS since its profitable and lucrative enough and don't bother trying to fight the Koreans since it's too difficult. The separation of scene creates even more inequality since there are no real incentive to improve. There needs to be external threat to push the existing foreigners out of the comfort scene imo. That's why Blizzard wants WCS to be the single most important storyline in WCS. They were not happy about last year how there were WCS Champions and there were GSL champions and so there is no concensus most succesful player of the year. With this format if you are in WCS, you are relevant, otherwise you are not.
Yeah, ofc the teams will only want to focus on there own region to win that money... THATS what grows our scenes... if there is no money incentive for teams to exist and grow, whats the point?
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ooooh, so the deal is that you can only be in one premier league at a time. Makes more sense to me now why Taeja, Hyun, and MC are doing what they're doing now.
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wow blizzard, good job. really good job. -_-
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On April 10 2013 21:55 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:52 DusTerr wrote:On April 10 2013 21:25 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:19 arkedos wrote:On April 10 2013 21:12 Benjamin99 wrote:
Actually the more I think about the more I think its a good idea if the NA players who live in NA should just boycott the NA WSC to send a clear message to blizzard and reveal that they are only bitchy and cocky because they dont get the money? You can already observe this behaviour in a nut shell when you take a look at the EG house. I mean they have a team house but instead of practising together, sharing builds and work like a team, they are just streaming for themselves over VERY VERY long periods of the day (well which is fine for itself because in that way they can make some money maybe to help to maintain the teamhouse) and it seems that they got a really poor atmosphere at the teamhouse. Stephano once said on his stream: "I whish I had friends on the US that I can practice with". I mean: HELLO you are in a TEAMhouse ? Shouldnt he practice with his TEAMmates? I Like the Idea of EG having a house where players live together but they are not using this infrastructure they have set up. Its nothing near effective like the Korean team houses. This got nothing to do with money but everything to do with the growth of the NA scene. The NA is dead if this is going to happen. And I don't think you or I is in a position to talk about EG and there social well-being as a team. So the NA scene got to make a choice they can either go with it and try to compete but will fail and eventually die out since no sponsors or teams will be interested in NA players. Or they can fight this and simply boycot it to force blizzard to make changes so it require residency to play in the NA WCS On April 10 2013 21:24 Novacute wrote:
At least we'll get great games in ALL qualifiers now. Who gives a shit really. You don't watch the Olympics because the best teams and players are not there in there respective sports?? People with you attitude makes me sick. This is good for the NA scene. Sponsors want exposure. This will bring more exposure. (We're not going to see BW 2.0 because the tournaments are much more accessible to fans in multiple regions.) This isn't the Olympics. Do you think more people watch the world series or the world baseball classic? Good for the NA scene really? Please tell me you trolling or kidding?. You will not find a single NA player who think this is good for the NA scene I can promise you that
Only if they just want easy competition/money. It's good for the NA scene in the long run to have actual competition.
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Now GSL can't say they have the very best players anymore.
The regions mean nothing.
This is so stupid, everybody loses.....except for MC.
Also if a foreigner makes it into the final 16 for the global finals I will be shocked.
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On April 10 2013 21:57 baldgye wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:56 dtz wrote:On April 10 2013 21:41 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:34 dtz wrote:On April 10 2013 21:23 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:17 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 10 2013 21:13 baldgye wrote:On April 10 2013 21:10 sc2superfan101 wrote:
No my analogy is to explain why I have little sympathy for someone who doesn't succeed because of outside factors like money. It's basically me telling you and everyone else that the "Oh these poor NA players!" or any other emotional argument isn't going to work on me. I work too goddamn hard at a job I don't really like to barely make ends meet to be moved by someone who *gasp* might have to do the same.
The real argument is that this will actually be better for prospective foreign players anyway. Either they work out a way to make it, or they fall away. Those who make it will be that much stronger and more worthy, and their success will mean that much more. Those who don't make it will have tried and failed, and learned something valuable in the process. It will be painful, it will be unpleasant, but in the long term, it is the only legitimate way. reading your posts you seem to be of the thinking that; 1. Your life sucks, so everyone elses should 2. The BW scene that had basically no western followers is what sc2 should aim to be They both seem like pretty legit arguments. My life is amazing. I have so many opportunities that the vast majority of human beings will never have. I consider my job I don't really like to be a blessing. Untold millions would have killed to get a decent job that pays enough for them to live comfortably, if frugally. You're missing the point entirely. I would love to have a world where everybody succeeds at their dream. But that isn't the real world. Either you hand people success, and they never grow; or you force them to fight tooth and nail for success with the very real prospect of failure. Only in the second scenario can you separate the chaff from the wheat, so to speak. Only in the second scenario do people actually grow and learn something. I actually think the proposed region-locks would result in BW 2.0 before turning into something worse: a dead game and dead scene. How so? At the moment because of BW the Korean scene is insane, everything is centered on Seoul the infrastructure is insane, they have coaches lots of team houses all practicing and working together with there own domestic league where they all play and practice for. Outside of Korea there isn't any of that because the rest of the world is pretty big, and so you instead have random team houses here and there with no real relation to anything in particular and little to no infrastructure. Most non-Korean pro's don't live in team houses and don't have access to the environment Korean players do. By allowing Koreans to play in the WSC outside of Korean your killing any chance of that infrastructure to be built up meaning that foreigners for the most part have no realistic chance of being able to compete with Koreans. You should read Catz post if you havn't already, it really highlights everything that is fundamentally wrong with how this is going. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1c1slt/my_views_on_wcsregional_based_leagues_region/If they allowed region locks, you would still have Koreans coming out of Korean for 'easy' money in tournaments etc and the GSL/Pro League would still be the highest level, but it would give the rest of the world the chance to catch up The Koreans who go to NA/EU will play online with significant lag though. And for those going to EU, they will move there i am pretty sure. Or at least RO16 onwards. They will leave their infrastructure benefits behind and will go to teamhouses in NA/EU. They have no coaches, they will experience cultural shock much like what foreigners experienced in Korea, they will be so tired due to jetlag and travels, etc. The Koreans can transfer their skill and expertise to NA/EU teams who want to build the infrastructure in NA/EU. Additionally, maybe the NA/EU upstarts can't hope to beat MC/MVP in prime condition. but a jetlagged, cultureshocked, coach-less, teamhouse-less MC and MVP? If you want any hope to become good at least you should aim to beat that. I think the goal is to accelerate the growth of Pro Scene in NA and EU. Kinda like how developing countries invite MNCs to set up factories and initiate technological transfer. How MLS invite Beckham / Henry to raise the profile of the local scene and improve the quality of the league. It all depends on how the local scene responds though. If they see it as an opportunity and rise up to the challenge, this can turn out good. If they gave up and saw Koreans as some insurmountable barriers and decided to just rely on streaming income then well it's bad. Yeah I can see what you mean, but if they do move there and set up a house there, those players are already better than EU/NA players.. so even if what you says happen the EU and NA players and teams still wont get much chance to win that money in order to 'even the keel' so it wouldn't really encourage growth because the team owners/managers wouldn't see any benefit from setting up a house (with all the cost that is involved) when there is little chance of them making any money back. If Koreans weren't allowed to compete it would grantee that money to EU/NA teams allowing them to set up houses and grow mini Seoul's in NA and EU over the next few years. Which then allows the EU/NA scenes to actually be comparable to Koreans who aren't simply born better at Starcraft That's the ideal situation though. But actually what a lot of people feared is that the EU/NA teams will be content to just win the regional WCS since its profitable and lucrative enough and don't bother trying to fight the Koreans since it's too difficult. The separation of scene creates even more inequality since there are no real incentive to improve. There needs to be external threat to push the existing foreigners out of the comfort scene imo. That's why Blizzard wants WCS to be the single most important storyline in WCS. They were not happy about last year how there were WCS Champions and there were GSL champions and so there is no concensus most succesful player of the year. With this format if you are in WCS, you are relevant, otherwise you are not. Yeah, ofc the teams will only want to focus on there own region to win that money... THATS what grows our scenes... if there is no money incentive for teams to exist and grow, whats the point?
Exactly. Atm there is no point for NA teams or sponsors to help develop the NA scene. Well bye bye NA was good to know you. Thx for Idra and Scarlet I had alot of fun watching them. To bad we will never see another player like them
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The prizemoney will go to the korean teams the korean players are in. So basically, KR Teams can have the prizemoney from all 3 leauges if they spread their players well enough?
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EPT
