3/29/2013 Update: It seems that some of the maps have been made official. They've all been updated, but I don't have a list of detailed changes, so I included some comparison GIF's. KeSPA will probably announce the R4 map pool soon.
Artemis and Colosseum have been removed. Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct has been added.
All gold :o. Which race would that favor...? Zerg as they can pump out drones faster as they are then limited by larvae instead of minerals? :o. Also since they start out with 3 larvae instead of 1... even slightly bigger boost early game?!
On March 18 2013 16:37 FabledIntegral wrote: All gold :o. Which race would that favor...? Zerg as they can pump out drones faster as they are then limited by larvae instead of minerals? :o. Also since they start out with 3 larvae instead of 1... even slightly bigger boost early game?!
Dunno it's hard to say as marines man . That is interesting.
Not a big fan of some, but fighting spirit was my favorite bw map :D.
Is Face Off a forced cross-spawn, two-maps-in-one type thing? The spawns are entirely different, if it's not forced cross the cries of "Positional imbalance!" will never stop...
The close cross spawn on Face Off looks crazy. Is that back section usable? Siege tanks on it will be painful. If not, then I assume reapers can jump through because otherwise it would have been empty space.
KeSPA has quite a bit of map-making audacity, that's for sure. Two of the bases on Face Off look like the bases found on Transistor, another KeSPA map that failed to make it into Proleague.
While GSL is known for adopting crazy-huge maps, KeSPA seems to be adopting flat-out crazy maps, for better or for worse.
On March 18 2013 16:50 rauk wrote: ITS NOT LIKE I PLAY FIGHTING SPIRIT 100% OF THE TIME ON ICCUP BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE WANTS TO PLAY WIND AND CLOUD OR ELECTRIC CIRCUIT
Hey it could be worse. You could play like ... python ?
This is one of the things KeSPA did right in the days of BW, better than anyone else in SC2 so far. They were not at all afraid to mix things up and try out radical maps, and then just send them through many rounds of testing to see which ones were a little too crazy or broken.
Sure, a lot of stupid maps made it through and had to be removed mid-season, but it was definitely worth it for the effects it had on constantly revitalizing gameplay, encouraging new builds, and making sure games didn't start to look exactly the same for months / years at a time.
That said, curious to see if some of these are actually going to make it through, lol. All golds in so insane.
I really like how they are trying different resources on maps. KESPA knows there is a problem with SC2 economy. Now, if they would just mod the game themselves...
I really hope they use that FS. Note that 1 vespene geyser per base! :D
It's hard to see in the OP's picture, but there are third bases along the side of the map that are 5 gold patches, 1 rich geyser. The high-ground expansions in the middle are 6 gold patches, 1 rich geyser.
All geysers appear to have 2500 gas, and all mineral fields appear to have 1500 minerals.
These maps are AWESOME!!!! THANK YOU KESPA!! All high-yield means less workers larger armies! I expect a lot of potent pressure+expand builds to be stronger than turtle-fastexpand builds. Artemis puts a player's map awareness, positioning, and ability to expand to the test! I am &@$"ing STOKEDD!!
Fuck man, KeSPA mapmakers are sooo fucking over-the-top with these. I'm gonna L-O-V-E the upcoming rounds. I don't care how balanced, imbalanced, nerfed, buffed it'll be, because it'll allow so many interesting scenarios.
I was OK with MLG on the first day but by the Ro8 I couldn't look at Daybreak matches anymore.
On March 18 2013 17:37 PVJ wrote: Fuck man, KeSPA mapmakers are sooo fucking over-the-top with these. I'm gonna L-O-V-E the upcoming rounds. I don't care how balanced, imbalanced, nerfed, buffed it'll be, because it'll allow so many interesting scenarios.
I was OK with MLG on the first day but by the Ro8 I couldn't look at Daybreak matches anymore.
tbh I can't stand cloud/daybreak either, never could stand cloud but daybreak just needs to go buh bye xD.
On March 18 2013 17:37 PVJ wrote: Fuck man, KeSPA mapmakers are sooo fucking over-the-top with these. I'm gonna L-O-V-E the upcoming rounds. I don't care how balanced, imbalanced, nerfed, buffed it'll be, because it'll allow so many interesting scenarios.
I was OK with MLG on the first day but by the Ro8 I couldn't look at Daybreak matches anymore.
tbh I can't stand cloud/daybreak either, never could stand cloud but daybreak just needs to go buh bye xD.
Wonder which of these maps will make it through .
I hope all of them.
On March 18 2013 16:37 lichter wrote:
Third to main distance on Face Off looks painful. Speedyvacs gonna love that one.
Well that will force players to split their armies.
On March 18 2013 16:39 zhurai wrote: all gold = probably shouldn't mule on then.
Yeah, I was just trying to count what kind of shenanigans the Terrans could pull off with using the extra supply instead of mules. BaBy, and some others were using it extensively back in WoL already, and it made me think that they are even better than MULEs.
Im afraid that KeSPA might get pressured to include one of these StarStation/Newirk/whatever. Guess It would be 3 or 4 new maps + 2 ladder maps + 2 of refreshed Bifrost/Arkanoid/Planet S/Caldeum
On March 18 2013 17:51 Pandemona wrote: Don't KESPA understand why gold mineral veins were taken out of WOL? ;_;
normal 8m2g gold base is a problem while 6m1hyg isn't, it provides similiar mineral income as a 8m normal base but less gas income, which forces players to expand to more locations and defend them, also since 6m requires less workers to saturate, essentially requires players to further spread their economy.
Face Off and Sanctuary have some good potential. But the rest are pretty awful and need some major restructuring.
Especially Colosseum. You have 3 extremely easy bases, but then any potential 4th will be miles away and you have to move any army that would defend it extremely far across the most open terrain SC2 has ever seen on any map. So it will be 3 base vs. 3 base every single game unless someone does a 1 base all-in. Not much diversity there.
I'm not even going to comment on the butchery of Fighting Spirit.
I think the green stuff on the ramp are rocks. if that is the case, it makes all spawn locations viable since the middle expos can dictate where they want to expand.
On March 18 2013 17:37 PVJ wrote: Fuck man, KeSPA mapmakers are sooo fucking over-the-top with these. I'm gonna L-O-V-E the upcoming rounds. I don't care how balanced, imbalanced, nerfed, buffed it'll be, because it'll allow so many interesting scenarios.
I was OK with MLG on the first day but by the Ro8 I couldn't look at Daybreak matches anymore.
yep ban daybreak i get bad dreams of it, its to often used
i LOVE when every tournament from kespa every osl etc have complete new maps ... epic old bw feeling
-Really- interested in the changes on Fighting Spirit.
In a way, this actually could be exactly what some people are looking for (mass expanding and a faster 'macro up' phase). It encourages risky and even reckless play, but properly punished, it will be even more devastating than before (if your opponent puts you back on 2 bases, you're pretty screwed).
On March 18 2013 18:40 slowbacontron wrote: Colosseum gives a natural 2nd AND natural 3rd expo. Seems turtle friendly?
It seems 3 base friendly. Like, don't bother getting a fourth. You can't hold it. Sort of a similar problem as Antiga Shipyard, but without the middle bases. Though it does have more space in the middle to play with.
I think it'll be interesting to see games on at least. And the strategies for this map will be different to some others, which is always nice. Maps should be diverse enough to the point where certain maps have certain optimal strategies that wouldn't work elsewhere.
On March 18 2013 18:40 slowbacontron wrote: Colosseum gives a natural 2nd AND natural 3rd expo. Seems turtle friendly?
And then an impossible to take 4th after that.
Aside from small problems like that, I LOVE how experimental KeSPA's getting with their maps, this is exactly what SC2 needs to keep evolving and becoming better. Right now Face Off and FS look the most interesting, especially with the gold mineral thing on FS which reminds me a lot of Barrin's fewer resources per base idea.
Managed to chat with the author of KESPA Fighting Spirit. Communication issues, but I did tell him to really look into the map's resources, as it is really wacky right now. I hope he could understand me well enough.
Apparently: "we application it to FitingSpirit & Andromeda but Andromeda was dismissal" XD
I really want it to be included! Andromeda would be nice, too.
Artemis is not pretty enough for that name. Face Off must be cross-only, surely. It looks like a nightmare that might be fun to watch but not to play on (if you're faint-of-heart when playing these days). Better FS than Python, I agree. Please don't let Python return, especially when we had not only Lost Temple but also Shattered Temple. Now this on the other hand... ^_^" (joking)
Colosseum, while not my favourite, deserved a return for certain. I can't even find the natural or third on Sanctuary! *Seeking new picture*
On March 18 2013 18:49 purakushi wrote: Managed to chat with the author of KESPA Fighting Spirit. Communication issues, but I did tell him to really look into the map's resources, as it is really wacky right now. I hope he could understand me well enough.
Apparently: "we application it to FitingSpirit & Andromeda but Andromeda was dismissal" XD
I really want it to be included! Andromeda would be nice, too.
That's extremely cute. Andromeda would be awesome.
On March 18 2013 18:49 purakushi wrote: Managed to chat with the author of KESPA Fighting Spirit. Communication issues, but I did tell him to really look into the map's resources, as it is really wacky right now. I hope he could understand me well enough.
Apparently: "we application it to FitingSpirit & Andromeda but Andromeda was dismissal" XD
I really want it to be included! Andromeda would be nice, too.
On March 18 2013 17:40 opterown wrote: LS and Jacky are both prime clan mapmakers, haha. they're employed by kespa, but their creativity and skill isn't kespa's own
But kespa lets them to be much more creative than any other organization or tournament. I am very looking forward to the changes that fighting spirit will bring.
LOL! Yeah, Monty Hall would be amazing to have back in a form that didn't use destructible rocks instead of minerals to slip through. If there were a mechanism to mimic the mineral tricks or similar pathing, it'd be great. Desire for Andromeda seconded (or more).
On March 18 2013 16:37 FabledIntegral wrote: All gold :o. Which race would that favor...? Zerg as they can pump out drones faster as they are then limited by larvae instead of minerals? :o. Also since they start out with 3 larvae instead of 1... even slightly bigger boost early game?!
Disfavors Toss the most. Especially if there is just 1 rich vespin. Terran and Zerg are more then fine and it is quiet funny.
On March 18 2013 16:37 FabledIntegral wrote: All gold :o. Which race would that favor...? Zerg as they can pump out drones faster as they are then limited by larvae instead of minerals? :o. Also since they start out with 3 larvae instead of 1... even slightly bigger boost early game?!
Disfavors Toss the most. Especially if there is just 1 rich vespin. Terran and Zerg are more then fine and it is quiet funny.
I'd argue that, especially in PvT since the majority of toss' army in PvT is both zealots and other mineral heavy gateway units.
All the golds do is mean you can have less mineral patches and the income is much closer to Broodwars level meaning bases are more important.
Zerg is really, really strong on the current KESPA FS. Just expand like crazy. That setup of resources has already been tried in mods, and it is ridiculous. It is not even close.
To be honest, I like them all. We will see, definitely look better than new GSTL maps imo. :D
On March 18 2013 19:46 grunge wrote: All that the gold minerals will mean is maxed out army on 2 bases instead of 3.
No, it won't, because Fighting Spirit has 6 patch gold Minerals instead of the 8 normal Minerals, which gives you about the same mineral income, but have 1 Rich geyser instead of the 2 normal ones, which gives you less gas. So, in the end, you will need lower worker count per base, you will have about the same Mineral income, but about 25% less gas income, so you will have to expand more, with less workers, and more army. A lot more like in the Brood War. You won't be able to max out on 2 bases, that is for sure.
I really want to see Fighting Spirit in action, just because all high yield bases will create its own unique meta-game and we will have crazy new and unique strats that will only work on it. I also want to see a classic back in the spotlight.
THANK GOD for KeSPA. Artemis, no ez third, no turtle, sexy back and forth games, awesome. Colosseum, beautiful, BW memories except for that third and no 2nd ramp, awesome. The mother fucking Fighting Spirit, OH YES, all gold and one gas, so excited for this map, awesome.
Face off, micro intensive, ppl dont like that these days, koreans will do ok in it tho. Sanctuary, funny looking, looking forward to funny looking games.
I'm very excited about Artemis and Fighting spirit as gold bases seems to play a major role on those maps. It's really the first we see a major tournament experiment not just with the layout of a starcraft map but with the economics of the map. I don't know how it will fare balance wise but it will lead to more expanding as gold bases run out minerals faster.
Heh, they are quite silly to make Fighting Spirit all gold bases. But it should change up the gameplay quite a bit, just like how Arkanoid how all those rocks.
Now excuse me while I watch Trinidad James - All Gold Everything song on youtube for the 50th time.
On March 18 2013 20:20 Slickpick wrote: Just played Fighting Spirit and OMG SO MUCH MONEY!
You played with any normal build tho, right? Because I'm pretty sure everyone will have to come up with specific openers / builds for it. Like 12Nexus or something.
On March 18 2013 20:53 Daswollvieh wrote: I love that "fuck it, lets do it" innovation style. The maps are certainly not pretty, but they are sure a breath of fresh air.
It hurt my eyes ;_; Especially artemis, it doesn't look like it has been made by a very talented map maker ! Nick Plott should cast these maps because the decoration is... tasteless
Coliseum and Sc2 FS seem legit, Sanctuary could be really interesting, if it's playable in every matchup. Looking forward seeing any of those getting the thumbs up.
On March 18 2013 18:12 bittman wrote: I like that SPL has fun with maps given their a team league.
I wouldnt want to see GSL individuals on most of these maps.
wait until OSL announces maps like Pathfinder xD
Or Flight- Dreamliner
Or Plasma
Or Battle Royale
... Or DMZ, it'd just be green instead of white since the viper poo-cloud is sickly green instead of the corsairs bright d-web
The horrors of terrible maps is something that has ALOT of room to be explored still... Now mapmakers even have those rocks that can create pathblocking instead of just clearing up a path
On March 18 2013 18:12 bittman wrote: I like that SPL has fun with maps given their a team league.
I wouldnt want to see GSL individuals on most of these maps.
wait until OSL announces maps like Pathfinder xD
Or Flight- Dreamliner
Or Plasma
Or Battle Royale
... Or DMZ, it'd just be green instead of white since the viper poo-cloud is sickly green instead of the corsairs bright d-web
The horrors of terrible maps is something that has ALOT of room to be explored still... Now mapmakers even have those rocks that can create pathblocking instead of just clearing up a path
DMZ with random blinding clouds... Or Outsider (dunno with neutral unkillable units so that you can slide through the minerals in the outter ring)... Or Demon's forest with random trees and shit...
you moght not know this, but it's possible to make even ground 50% misschance terrain in bw. I am very curious why KESPA didn't try that. A new map with that feature just got into the ICCUP map pool it's called desertec and it's kind of silly. Wait what was I talking about?
Ohh yeah RIP misschance because it's killing SC2 map making..
On March 18 2013 18:12 bittman wrote: I like that SPL has fun with maps given their a team league.
I wouldnt want to see GSL individuals on most of these maps.
wait until OSL announces maps like Pathfinder xD
Or Flight- Dreamliner
Or Plasma
Or Battle Royale
... Or DMZ, it'd just be green instead of white since the viper poo-cloud is sickly green instead of the corsairs bright d-web
The horrors of terrible maps is something that has ALOT of room to be explored still... Now mapmakers even have those rocks that can create pathblocking instead of just clearing up a path
DMZ with random blinding clouds... Or Outsider (dunno with neutral unkillable units so that you can slide through the minerals in the outter ring)... Or Demon's forest with random trees and shit...
you moght not know this, but it's possible to make even ground 50% misschance terrain in bw. I am very curious why KESPA didn't try that. A new map with that feature just got into the ICCUP map pool it's called desertec and it's kind of silly. Wait what was I talking about?
Ohh yeah RIP misschance because it's killing SC2 map making..
I didn't know that it was possible, but on that note I also think it sounds like an absolutely horseshit dumb idea
Even if I don't play terr, I can imagine a map like that would make them so sad ^^
If Face Off is forced "cross spawn" like I think it is, then it's a really interesting map. I never thought about essentially having two possible maps in one just by manipulating the spawn position, that's really innovative!
Face Off does look very interesting, I do hope it stays through testing. What I am excited most about is how it can push new strategies out of the players, which will further not only Face Off's variety, but also that for all the other maps.
On March 18 2013 18:12 bittman wrote: I like that SPL has fun with maps given their a team league.
I wouldnt want to see GSL individuals on most of these maps.
wait until OSL announces maps like Pathfinder xD
Or Flight- Dreamliner
Or Plasma
Or Battle Royale
... Or DMZ, it'd just be green instead of white since the viper poo-cloud is sickly green instead of the corsairs bright d-web
The horrors of terrible maps is something that has ALOT of room to be explored still... Now mapmakers even have those rocks that can create pathblocking instead of just clearing up a path
DMZ with random blinding clouds... Or Outsider (dunno with neutral unkillable units so that you can slide through the minerals in the outter ring)... Or Demon's forest with random trees and shit...
you moght not know this, but it's possible to make even ground 50% misschance terrain in bw. I am very curious why KESPA didn't try that. A new map with that feature just got into the ICCUP map pool it's called desertec and it's kind of silly. Wait what was I talking about?
Ohh yeah RIP misschance because it's killing SC2 map making..
I didn't know that it was possible, but on that note I also think it sounds like an absolutely horseshit dumb idea
Even if I don't play terr, I can imagine a map like that would make them so sad ^^
I dunno if the terran goes mech tanks will still splash and since hydra is the counter...
Yes bio would suck (you also need a lot of firebats so that you can trade vs lings which makes your army bad vs mutas) , but mech is more powerful... PvT tanks always splash soo goons would suck and zealots would still die to mines (even more soo since goons would take longer to clear stuff...)
I actually think that it would be balance for T if not T favored...
It's known that gold minerals give a big advantage to zerg and terran while not favoring protoss much? Give a map only gold minerals. >_> seriously, most of these Kespa maps are beyond silly from a balance perspective. Like, you will never in a million years see a protoss get sent out on Fighting Spirit (to macro) or take a third on Sanctuary. Colosseum seems to be the only somewhat reasonable map.
But hey, standard play has never been what PL is about. Hence why I don't take PL results all that seriously right now.
Some crazy maps. I think I like Face off the best but like many, the drop distance is worrying. Colleseum seems hard for a zerg and fighting spirit is a bit ridiculous XD
On March 18 2013 22:35 fabiano wrote: I can't seem to load the images...
Is Colosseum the same as the BW Colosseum? If so, that is freaking amazing!!!
Yeah it's pretty much a complete port.
no its not at all
the third is completely different *edit* and high ground mid I think? regardless if thats not highground it has watchtower, as well as naturals being different in air approach (natural has minerals next to the edge of map rather than space)
Not sure if intended, but hatch/nex/cc placement at the middle base on Fighting Spirit is a little off. You have to pick one mineral line you want to be a bit closer to.
Next Season: Scrap Station, Steppes of War, Debris Field, and Lost Temple
More seriously, these maps are awesome. I'm so pleased that these guys think out of the box when it comes to mapmaking. Can't wait to get my hands on these.
On March 18 2013 22:59 Gaius Baltar wrote: Not sure if intended, but hatch/nex/cc placement at the middle base on Fighting Spirit is a little off. You have to pick one mineral line you want to be a bit closer to.
In BW the hex was symmetrical, but there's a free hex to each side of the mineral lines if you place it in the center. Anyway, the center bases rarely comes into play. If you can take the center base the game is probably over already
On March 18 2013 16:45 Dodgin wrote: Kespa really isn't afraid to pull out the insane maps huh.
Yup. That's what made the BW scene so interesting for so long. Many of the BW vets really didn't care too much about balance on new maps, knowing that the worst ones will be taken out in a few months. Disrupting the metagame often gives the game a breath of fresh air.
The SC2 scene, on the other hand, is just way too obsessed with balance. People take the pitchforks out and march against a 51-49 imbalance.
On March 18 2013 22:59 Gaius Baltar wrote: Not sure if intended, but hatch/nex/cc placement at the middle base on Fighting Spirit is a little off. You have to pick one mineral line you want to be a bit closer to.
You can't have a symmetrical layout and a snug center base at the same time, unfortunately. This is because the width/height of SC2 maps are an even number of tiles (meaning any symmetrical center base will be an even number of tiles across) but the town halls are 5x5.
On March 18 2013 16:45 Dodgin wrote: Kespa really isn't afraid to pull out the insane maps huh.
Yup. That's what made the BW scene so interesting for so long. Many of the BW vets really didn't care too much about balance on new maps, knowing that the worst ones will be taken out in a few months. Disrupting the metagame often gives the game a breath of fresh air.
The SC2 scene, on the other hand, is just way too obsessed with balance. People take the pitchforks out and march against a 51-49 imbalance.
Reminder that when antiga shipyard and taldarim altar have been in the map pool for more than 1 year along with many other shitty and imbalanced map, worrying about the balance of a map is legit. In Sc2 the map pool rotation is slow as fuck and if a map suck you will have to live with it for at least 6 months :/
On March 18 2013 16:45 Dodgin wrote: Kespa really isn't afraid to pull out the insane maps huh.
Yup. That's what made the BW scene so interesting for so long. Many of the BW vets really didn't care too much about balance on new maps, knowing that the worst ones will be taken out in a few months. Disrupting the metagame often gives the game a breath of fresh air.
The SC2 scene, on the other hand, is just way too obsessed with balance. People take the pitchforks out and march against a 51-49 imbalance.
Reminder that when antiga shipyard and taldarim altar have been in the map pool for more than 1 year along with many other shitty and imbalanced map, worrying about the balance of a map is legit. In Sc2 the map pool rotation is slow as fuck and if a map suck you will have to live with it for at least 6 months :/
To be fair that's more a problem with tournaments than it is with maps.
On March 18 2013 22:59 Gaius Baltar wrote: Not sure if intended, but hatch/nex/cc placement at the middle base on Fighting Spirit is a little off. You have to pick one mineral line you want to be a bit closer to.
You can't have a symmetrical layout and a snug center base at the same time, unfortunately. This is because the width/height of SC2 maps are an even number of tiles (meaning any symmetrical center base will be an even number of tiles across) but the town halls are 5x5.
Technically you can have an odd number... But cliffs are locked onto multiples of 2. If you made a map using painted pathing/doodads and all on one level then you could pull it off, but that probably wasn't an option for FS since it's a port and the original had multiple levels.
i'm beginning to love kespa map makers. Not necessarily because the maps are good, but because i'm looking at them and thinking 'i have no idea how this is going to play out'.
This is interesting news. It means that on some level KeSPA has recognized 8m2g to be a hindrance towards variation.
It will be hugely interesting to see whether this promotes a more spread out and expand oriented game style.
Though, FRB has some flaws in itself which Barrin recognized (he has revised FRB). I hope 6 mineral patches don't lead to build orders conforming too quickly in the games. There needs to be some asymmetry so players won't be too afraid of deviating and expanding.
On March 19 2013 00:16 LaLuSh wrote: This is interesting news. It means that on some level KeSPA has recognized 8m2g to be a hindrance towards variation.
It will be hugely interesting to see whether this promotes a more spread out and expand oriented game style.
Though, FRB has some flaws in itself which Barrin recognized (he has revised FRB). I hope 6 mineral patches don't lead to build orders conforming too quickly in the games. There needs to be some asymmetry so players won't be too afraid of deviating and expanding.
i'm really interested in FRB, but that thread is pretty insanely long to read, where is this revision?
btw these maps look interesting, actually the thing i've looked forward for the most with Kespa entering the sc2 scene, almost as much as the players themselves, are their maps
On March 18 2013 16:45 Dodgin wrote: Kespa really isn't afraid to pull out the insane maps huh.
Yup. That's what made the BW scene so interesting for so long. Many of the BW vets really didn't care too much about balance on new maps, knowing that the worst ones will be taken out in a few months. Disrupting the metagame often gives the game a breath of fresh air.
The SC2 scene, on the other hand, is just way too obsessed with balance. People take the pitchforks out and march against a 51-49 imbalance.
Reminder that when antiga shipyard and taldarim altar have been in the map pool for more than 1 year along with many other shitty and imbalanced map, worrying about the balance of a map is legit. In Sc2 the map pool rotation is slow as fuck and if a map suck you will have to live with it for at least 6 months :/
To be fair that's more a problem with tournaments than it is with maps.
That's more a problem with Blizzard and tournaments being to stubborn to rotate maps in and out, at least the GSL and Proleague do a decent job, if everyone followed their example we wouldn't be having this discussion now.
I feel like fighting spirit will be all zerg/protoss? Gateway timings are going to be stronk...but then so will zergs potential to drone and be safe. Then again terran's got marines...
On March 19 2013 00:32 Arceus wrote: apparently theres a dedicated article on KeSPA site which details every maps with better quality images. Hope someone can translate it
O.o I want match point and sniper ridge to become a sc2 map. :< but woo fS! This current map pool + planet s/bifrost = oh gAwd. I want them to take out arkanoid. Unless they like the idea of having a conpletely different playstyle and metagame just for that map.
On March 18 2013 22:50 DarkLordOlli wrote: It's known that gold minerals give a big advantage to zerg and terran while not favoring protoss much? Give a map only gold minerals. >_> seriously, most of these Kespa maps are beyond silly from a balance perspective. Like, you will never in a million years see a protoss get sent out on Fighting Spirit (to macro) or take a third on Sanctuary. Colosseum seems to be the only somewhat reasonable map.
But hey, standard play has never been what PL is about. Hence why I don't take PL results all that seriously right now.
i like how you assume that the gold bases are the only factor. I am pretty sure that you can make all gold maps work if the terrain is used correctly.
On March 18 2013 16:45 Dodgin wrote: Kespa really isn't afraid to pull out the insane maps huh.
Yup. That's what made the BW scene so interesting for so long. Many of the BW vets really didn't care too much about balance on new maps, knowing that the worst ones will be taken out in a few months. Disrupting the metagame often gives the game a breath of fresh air.
The SC2 scene, on the other hand, is just way too obsessed with balance. People take the pitchforks out and march against a 51-49 imbalance.
Ohh they did care... , but they really didn't get a say in the matter. I am pretty sure Flash, Bisu, Jaedong etc eetc would be happy to play on FS all day and not die to silly cheeses and therefor improve their winrate even more.
On March 19 2013 00:16 LaLuSh wrote: This is interesting news. It means that on some level KeSPA has recognized 8m2g to be a hindrance towards variation.
It will be hugely interesting to see whether this promotes a more spread out and expand oriented game style.
Though, FRB has some flaws in itself which Barrin recognized (he has revised FRB). I hope 6 mineral patches don't lead to build orders conforming too quickly in the games. There needs to be some asymmetry so players won't be too afraid of deviating and expanding.
i'm really interested in FRB, but that thread is pretty insanely long to read, where is this revision?
btw these maps look interesting, actually the thing i've looked forward for the most with Kespa entering the sc2 scene, almost as much as the players themselves, are their maps
Originally, FRB was 6 mineral patches at 4 per trip and 1 high yield gas per base, but that was revised to 8m1hyg at 4 minerals and 6 gas per trip. Details can be found in the OP here.. Barrin (FRB's creator) did mention later that he is denouncing FRB, as that was not all he had in mind writing his Breadth of Gameplay article. Regardless, though, just the economic changes to FRB would do SC2 good, and it is a simple enough change that is quick to implement.
I actually managed to chat with the creator of KESPA Fighting Spirit. While there were some communication issues, I did tell him about FRB. It may have been a bit too much English for him to handle, but I politely asked him to check with an English speaking friend >_<
I hope he does consider FRB, as the currently iteration of the map is far from FRB. It basically rushes the early/mid game and is far from the smooth economy that FRB/BW provides.
If anyone is able and willing to translate a letter explaining FRB, I would be willing to summarize FRB and write it. It would be simpler than what is on the FRB threads. Then we could send it to KESPA (and ESF/GOM). Hopefully get something done, as we know they are willing to try crazy stuff out.
Fighting Spirit gives me a lot of hope for the future of SC2. Kespa mapmakers have this ability to brute force maps into the competitive scene. This is a step toward FRB maps becoming the norm which I think is the best chance SC2 has at becoming a better game.
On March 18 2013 16:45 Dodgin wrote: Kespa really isn't afraid to pull out the insane maps huh.
Yup. That's what made the BW scene so interesting for so long. Many of the BW vets really didn't care too much about balance on new maps, knowing that the worst ones will be taken out in a few months. Disrupting the metagame often gives the game a breath of fresh air.
The SC2 scene, on the other hand, is just way too obsessed with balance. People take the pitchforks out and march against a 51-49 imbalance.
Reminder that when antiga shipyard and taldarim altar have been in the map pool for more than 1 year along with many other shitty and imbalanced map, worrying about the balance of a map is legit. In Sc2 the map pool rotation is slow as fuck and if a map suck you will have to live with it for at least 6 months :/
To be fair that's more a problem with tournaments than it is with maps.
That's more a problem with Blizzard and tournaments being to stubborn to rotate maps in and out, at least the GSL and Proleague do a decent job, if everyone followed their example we wouldn't be having this discussion now.
Speaking of GSL they haven't announced their map pool yet. I hope their will do an important amount of changes because the last one was pretty bad (icarus ftw).
Also map pool related : Blizzard said a while ago that they were going to work hard to keep the map pool decent on the ladder, any news of this ?
Edit :
On March 19 2013 00:55 pookums wrote: Fighting Spirit gives me a lot of hope for the future of SC2. Kespa mapmakers have this ability to brute force maps into the competitive scene. This is a step toward FRB maps becoming the norm which I think is the best chance SC2 has at becoming a better game.
It could also be a step backward if it turns out to be horrible for the game ^^
On March 19 2013 00:48 LighT. wrote: O.o I want match point and sniper ridge to become a sc2 map. :< but woo fS! This current map pool + planet s/bifrost = oh gAwd. I want them to take out arkanoid. Unless they like the idea of having a conpletely different playstyle and metagame just for that map.
Was match point supposed to be the map daybreak is based off of or was it a different map? I thought I remembered reading that when the map first came out
On March 18 2013 22:50 DarkLordOlli wrote: It's known that gold minerals give a big advantage to zerg and terran while not favoring protoss much? Give a map only gold minerals. >_> seriously, most of these Kespa maps are beyond silly from a balance perspective. Like, you will never in a million years see a protoss get sent out on Fighting Spirit (to macro) or take a third on Sanctuary. Colosseum seems to be the only somewhat reasonable map.
But hey, standard play has never been what PL is about. Hence why I don't take PL results all that seriously right now.
i like how you assume that the gold bases are the only factor. I am pretty sure that you can make all gold maps work if the terrain is used correctly.
It's got nothing to do with terrain whatsoever. Zerg and terran are more mineral heavy in overall gameplay, that's all there is to it. Protoss needs super gas heavy units to win a game whereas zerg and terran have a great mineral dump in marines (which T always wants anyway) and zerglings (which, with gold bases, are essentially free). You'll almost never see a protoss starved for minerals but they will be starved for gas. That's why gold bases favor zerg and terran more than they do protoss. I'm not a heavy anti fan of gold bases on maps where they're hard to defend but an all gold map can never ever ever be balanced. But that's not what it's aiming for, it's aiming to be something new and offer new strategies and gameplay.
I'm just looking forward to zerg figuring out how much faster they can 6pool (and how many more lings they can produce) with their fancy gold main bases >_>
On March 18 2013 16:45 Dodgin wrote: Kespa really isn't afraid to pull out the insane maps huh.
Yup. That's what made the BW scene so interesting for so long. Many of the BW vets really didn't care too much about balance on new maps, knowing that the worst ones will be taken out in a few months. Disrupting the metagame often gives the game a breath of fresh air.
The SC2 scene, on the other hand, is just way too obsessed with balance. People take the pitchforks out and march against a 51-49 imbalance.
Reminder that when antiga shipyard and taldarim altar have been in the map pool for more than 1 year along with many other shitty and imbalanced map, worrying about the balance of a map is legit. In Sc2 the map pool rotation is slow as fuck and if a map suck you will have to live with it for at least 6 months :/
To be fair that's more a problem with tournaments than it is with maps.
That's more a problem with Blizzard and tournaments being to stubborn to rotate maps in and out, at least the GSL and Proleague do a decent job, if everyone followed their example we wouldn't be having this discussion now.
Speaking of GSL they haven't announced their map pool yet. I hope their will do an important amount of changes because the last one was pretty bad (icarus ftw).
Also map pool related : Blizzard said a while ago that they were going to work hard to keep the map pool decent on the ladder, any news of this ?
On March 19 2013 00:55 pookums wrote: Fighting Spirit gives me a lot of hope for the future of SC2. Kespa mapmakers have this ability to brute force maps into the competitive scene. This is a step toward FRB maps becoming the norm which I think is the best chance SC2 has at becoming a better game.
It could also be a step backward if it turns out to be horrible for the game ^^
I doubt Blizzard can be anywhere near as fast as Kespa. A Proleague round finishes after every team has played every other team once. Kespa has shown that it is willing to change some maps after every round. Some very problematic maps have even been removed mid-round.
On March 18 2013 16:45 Dodgin wrote: Kespa really isn't afraid to pull out the insane maps huh.
Yup. That's what made the BW scene so interesting for so long. Many of the BW vets really didn't care too much about balance on new maps, knowing that the worst ones will be taken out in a few months. Disrupting the metagame often gives the game a breath of fresh air.
The SC2 scene, on the other hand, is just way too obsessed with balance. People take the pitchforks out and march against a 51-49 imbalance.
Reminder that when antiga shipyard and taldarim altar have been in the map pool for more than 1 year along with many other shitty and imbalanced map, worrying about the balance of a map is legit. In Sc2 the map pool rotation is slow as fuck and if a map suck you will have to live with it for at least 6 months :/
To be fair that's more a problem with tournaments than it is with maps.
That's more a problem with Blizzard and tournaments being to stubborn to rotate maps in and out, at least the GSL and Proleague do a decent job, if everyone followed their example we wouldn't be having this discussion now.
Speaking of GSL they haven't announced their map pool yet. I hope their will do an important amount of changes because the last one was pretty bad (icarus ftw).
Also map pool related : Blizzard said a while ago that they were going to work hard to keep the map pool decent on the ladder, any news of this ?
Edit :
On March 19 2013 00:55 pookums wrote: Fighting Spirit gives me a lot of hope for the future of SC2. Kespa mapmakers have this ability to brute force maps into the competitive scene. This is a step toward FRB maps becoming the norm which I think is the best chance SC2 has at becoming a better game.
It could also be a step backward if it turns out to be horrible for the game ^^
I doubt Blizzard can be anywhere near as fast as Kespa. A Proleague round finishes after every team has played every other team once. Kespa has shown that it is willing to change some maps after every round. Some very problematic maps have even been removed mid-round.
Speaking of which, we need a Demon's Forest port one of these days.
I feel like fighting spirit definitely favors zerg. This is because probes and scvs just take time, not larvae, and by the looks of it (correct me if I'm wrong, there is fewer patches to saturate which means zerg can spend that extra larvae on units.
More Kespa craziness... But this time I won't say anything until I see some actual play on these maps, who knows what will happen (especially on fighting spirit)
Yep. That sort of resource setup has been tried already. The way they have it set up now, it highly favours Zerg. You can just mass expand. The only thing that is funny is that it is not even close. Zerg should win 90%+ of the time.
I did message the author to tell him about that (and how the economy would be even worse than what we have in SC2 now). I hope he could understand what I said well enough.
Is there anyone good enough at Korean and English who would be willing to translate a short letter explaining FRB? We can send it to KESPA/GOM.
On March 19 2013 01:28 Ancamdrew wrote: I feel like fighting spirit definitely favors zerg. This is because probes and scvs just take time, not larvae, and by the looks of it (correct me if I'm wrong, there is fewer patches to saturate which means zerg can spend that extra larvae on units.
I think it slightly favors Zerg, but what is most important is that it just completely shafts Protoss :D
Btw, isn't what they did to Fighting Spirit basically what the "Fewer Resources per Base" thread advocates? Could be interesting. It's gold minerals, but it's less patches and just 1 gas so you need less workers to saturate, it could promote more expanding.
On March 18 2013 19:29 Pimpmuckl wrote: I actually really really like them, can't help but feel Toss will be trash on the All-Gold Map but it's gonna be interesting!
On March 19 2013 01:50 ZenithM wrote: Btw, isn't what they did to Fighting Spirit basically what the "Fewer Resources per Base" thread advocates? Could be interesting. It's gold minerals, but it's less patches and just 1 gas so you need less workers to saturate, it could promote more expanding.
On March 19 2013 01:50 ZenithM wrote: Btw, isn't what they did to Fighting Spirit basically what the "Fewer Resources per Base" thread advocates? Could be interesting. It's gold minerals, but it's less patches and just 1 gas so you need less workers to saturate, it could promote more expanding.
Not really, it is not even close to FRB. What they have in place right now just is even more explosive than vanilla SC2. It is not nearly as smooth of an income as FRB. Basically all it does is skip the early game and zoom through the mid-game, which vanilla SC2 already does a good job of doing (not a compliment). Although it has changed a lot coming into HotS, maybe they see that most games (WoL) have no action until 100+ supply, anyway. They just want to speed it up.
I love their experimentation, but this resource setup is not going to be good. I really miss early/mid game.
On March 19 2013 01:46 Mohdoo wrote: I need to see a top tier game on all gold bases. Too awesome.
II also think it's hilarious how we all hate gold bases until the ENTIRE map is gold bases.
People generally dislike nonstandard gimmick maps. But everyone loves everything Kespa regurgitates out, especially if there's a side dish of nostalgia. Just like Arkanoid.
On March 19 2013 01:46 Mohdoo wrote: I need to see a top tier game on all gold bases. Too awesome.
II also think it's hilarious how we all hate gold bases until the ENTIRE map is gold bases.
People generally dislike nonstandard gimmick maps. But everyone loves everything Kespa regurgitates out, especially if there's a side dish of nostalgia. Just like Arkanoid.
Indeed, talk about a double standard. Imagine Blizzard releasing a map like Artemis, it would be instantly labeled the worst map ever and nobody would ever play on it.
The fighting spirit gimmick will also never catch on, imagine re-learning every single timing just for one map. Who knows what kind of unstoppable all-ins a totally revamped economy would produce.
Overall I'm not terribly impressed with the kespa maps so far. The GSL mapmakers have a far better record in creating good maps, both aesthetically and gameplay-wise.
I've seen most of these ideas (the 2in1 map, triple base with rocks) executed better by foreign mapmakers. Only the "all 6m gold" is some new kind of weird.
On March 19 2013 01:46 Mohdoo wrote: I need to see a top tier game on all gold bases. Too awesome.
II also think it's hilarious how we all hate gold bases until the ENTIRE map is gold bases.
People generally dislike nonstandard gimmick maps. But everyone loves everything Kespa regurgitates out, especially if there's a side dish of nostalgia. Just like Arkanoid.
Indeed, talk about a double standard. Imagine Blizzard releasing a map like Artemis, it would be instantly labeled the worst map ever and nobody would ever play on it.
The fighting spirit gimmick will also never catch on, imagine re-learning every single timing just for one map. Who knows what kind of unstoppable all-ins a totally revamped economy would produce.
Overall I'm not terribly impressed with the kespa maps so far. The GSL mapmakers have a far better record in creating good maps, both aesthetically and gameplay-wise.
There is a huge difference between a community map-maker and an organization like kespa, which has dozens of players with flawless macro where all of it will be tested. If some random derp makes a map nobody plays it. That is why this is huge. GSL mapmakers are too afraid to experiment on this regard.
On March 19 2013 01:46 Mohdoo wrote: I need to see a top tier game on all gold bases. Too awesome.
II also think it's hilarious how we all hate gold bases until the ENTIRE map is gold bases.
People generally dislike nonstandard gimmick maps. But everyone loves everything Kespa regurgitates out, especially if there's a side dish of nostalgia. Just like Arkanoid.
Indeed, talk about a double standard. Imagine Blizzard releasing a map like Artemis, it would be instantly labeled the worst map ever and nobody would ever play on it.
The fighting spirit gimmick will also never catch on, imagine re-learning every single timing just for one map. Who knows what kind of unstoppable all-ins a totally revamped economy would produce.
Overall I'm not terribly impressed with the kespa maps so far. The GSL mapmakers have a far better record in creating good maps, both aesthetically and gameplay-wise.
Artemis has an idea that is something that should be tested. Different combos of gold bases should all be tested and refined so that we can have more variety. But the execution of the map is pretty poor because it's made by one of the BW map makers who doesn't have much experience in the SC2 editor yet.
At first, yes, you're learning all new timings for one new map. But if that type of map can be refined, that style of resources can be used again with a new layout. Eventually it will be something standard and we can mix those kinds of maps in without it being a problem at all.
(Although for proleague there's really no problem forcing players to learn a new style for some specific maps. It's really fine to do that in that context.)
On March 19 2013 01:46 Mohdoo wrote: I need to see a top tier game on all gold bases. Too awesome.
II also think it's hilarious how we all hate gold bases until the ENTIRE map is gold bases.
People generally dislike nonstandard gimmick maps. But everyone loves everything Kespa regurgitates out, especially if there's a side dish of nostalgia. Just like Arkanoid.
Indeed, talk about a double standard. Imagine Blizzard releasing a map like Artemis, it would be instantly labeled the worst map ever and nobody would ever play on it.
The fighting spirit gimmick will also never catch on, imagine re-learning every single timing just for one map. Who knows what kind of unstoppable all-ins a totally revamped economy would produce.
Overall I'm not terribly impressed with the kespa maps so far. The GSL mapmakers have a far better record in creating good maps, both aesthetically and gameplay-wise.
There is a huge difference between a community map-maker and an organization like kespa, which has dozens of players with flawless macro where all of it will be tested. If some random derp makes a map nobody plays it. That is why this is huge. GSL mapmakers are too afraid to experiment on this regard.
It's not GSL map makers it's GSL. Actually, most the maps in this thread are made by guys who made maps for GSL first. Lunatic Sounds made Tal Darim, Terminus, Metropolis, Atlantis Spaceship, Bel'Shir Beach and Dual Site. Jacky made Crossfire SE, Xel'Naga Fortress, Calm Before the Storm, Crevasse and Muspelheim. GSL didn't want these crazy sort of maps.
Kespa also has a track record of making crazy maps work for 10 years, unlike Blizzard. Forcing people to adapt their game based on maps is how they have always done things, and it doesnt look like theyre about to change that. Sure, Kespa is not perfect and have indeed released terrible maps (cough pathfinder cough) but those are generally the exception, not the rule.
As an aside, this is really where the practice house environment shines because you can have b-teamers grind the same builds over and over with the starters in order to figure out timings that work. This is also part of proleague strategy, where you have players who are not only better in some matchups but also better on certain maps, which adds another layer.
I think that this SC2 FS is going to be bonkers and impossible to use in competition because BROKEN OMGZ NERF BLIZZ... just kidding, it will just be hyper-weird and probably frustrating for pros due to the craziness of timings there.
Also, Face Off and Sanctuary look AWESOME. Can't wait.
I really like that they're trying out some funky maps, but there's some irony in that people would be far less positive about them if they were coming from anywhere but Kespa. Everyone's been bashing Blizzard for all the gimmicky things they've done to maps, then Kespa does it and suddenly we love gold minerals. You can't say it was just Blizzard's poor map making, people were just straight up negative about the concepts themselves and raging at them for even trying to include things like destructible rocks and gold minerals.
Man Kespa knows how to create the best maps, I personally love Neo PLanet S, and these spread out Xel Nagaless maps gives a really cool effect ingame, where position and vision is very important, gives it a really good dynamic feel.
Concept: This map draws upon the "National" BW map, Fighting Spirit, and encourages new concepts of worker supply and resource management.
Key Features: 1) In current SC2 maps, the worker count takes up too much of the supply and the army count takes a direct hit. Also, it is hard to play in a wide, spread out style of 5 or more bases. 2) Each base has 6 rich mineral patches and 1 high yield gas. 3) Hence the army count can increase, and players can play the map in a more spread out, expanding manner. 4) Also, since the mineral intake rate is higher, the amount of time for build orders to progress become shorter, and the play becomes much more dynamic.
Misc: 1) Every main has 6 mineral patches that return 7 minerals per trip (a total of 10,800 minerals) and 1 geyser that returns 8 gas per trip (4500 gas). 2) Compared to the normal map with 12,000 minerals and 5000 gas, there are 10% less resources. Compound that with the faster resource mining rate and the bases mine out roughly 10-15% faster. 3) Because the fewer mineral patches per base, the resource intake rate is not as affected and will not affect army sizes as much. However, the due to the shorter time it takes to mine out, this map encourages faster, more aggressive expansions rather than defensive, turtling (yes, I'm a BW fan, but the article actually says "sitting down") play.
Went on the Korean server to try out some TvT with someone else from here and damn it's a great map. Confusing, but once you learn it it's going to be great I think. (Fighting Spirit I mean).
It looks like the race that would benefit the most from FS would be terran if it still uses mostly minerals like in WoL. TvZ should be epic too I guess. Bad map for protoss though?
On March 19 2013 02:46 Bisu-Fan wrote: I'll just do the translation for the Fighting Spirit one... Finals week and I don't have much time (what am I doing here haha)
Concept: This map draws upon the "National" BW map, Fighting Spirit, and encourages new concepts of worker supply and resource management.
Key Features: 1) In current SC2 maps, the worker count takes up too much of the supply and the army count takes a direct hit. Also, it is hard to play in a wide, spread out style of 5 or more bases. 2) Each base has 6 rich mineral patches and 1 high yield gas. 3) Hence the army count can increase, and players can play the map in a more spread out, expanding manner. 4) Also, since the mineral intake rate is higher, the amount of time for build orders to progress become shorter, and the play becomes much more dynamic.
Misc: 1) Every main has 6 mineral patches that return 7 minerals per trip (a total of 10,800 minerals) and 1 geyser that returns 8 gas per trip (4500 gas). 2) Compared to the normal map with 12,000 minerals and 5000 gas, there are 10% less resources. Compound that with the faster resource mining rate and the bases mine out roughly 10-15% faster. 3) Because the fewer mineral patches per base, the resource intake rate is not as affected and will not affect army sizes as much. However, the due to the shorter time it takes to mine out, this map encourages faster, more aggressive expansions rather than defensive, turtling (yes, I'm a BW fan, but the article actually says "sitting down") play.
Thanks for the translation! They really should look at FRB, as half of their reasoning is the same. Though, it is different from FRB in that the early game will be nearly non-existent, it should be interesting. I prefer there still to be an early game, though.
It is the worst map for Protoss, though. SC2 Protoss can not spread out like the other 2 races. The units require too much synergy from each other to be separated. Zerg will dominate.
kespa really knows how to do things right when it comes to maps, each and every one of these maps are absolutely nuts and will have their own playstyles and builds poor players who will have to practice and learn these maps just to see them swapped out after a few months though xD
I love what kespa does with the maps. They're very dubiously balanced but they make for insanely awesome games. And since you can pick what race goes out on what maps, balance can be worked around.
On March 19 2013 03:48 Alryk wrote: I love what kespa does with the maps. They're very dubiously balanced but they make for insanely awesome games. And since you can pick what race goes out on what maps, balance can be worked around.
They even work in BOX series as well as anything below a BO7 you can usually have vetos and also it's quite nice to have maps that favour certain races in the map pool to make the games closer. For example if a map favours Terran in a BOX TvZ and one map favours zerg, that's pretty much evened it out.
Sanctuary looks really cool if it would just have a center path.
Will be fun to see what Kespa do with their map pool, too many crazy maps thats just retarded will cost them a lot. Both in Players not being able to really practice for other tournaments and viewers being all "lol not even worth watching".
edit: I think variation in maps is great but only first when they meta game is started to get figured out. And if tournaments could just agree to share X-amount of maps in their pool.
for FS for toss, they're basically experimenting with strafing. When I watch the SC2 Toss in action, they basically have rally points in front of their natural and they just sit there whereas in SC:BW, the protoss was functional such that gateway heavy units strafed and patrolled from side to side to cut off flanks and angle of attacks. This was reduced with the reduced immobility of colosseus, although teh templars are basically at the same speed, but it can induce more warp prism play, more static defense instead of resorting to emergency warp ins and a cannon or two at max and promoting a more dynamic playstyle.
This map pool is little risk-high reward any way you look at it. It's best not to stick with WoL maps anyway and as good as Daybreak/CK might be in terms of balance, it needs a change of scenery. Whirlwind and Bifrost was a good starter. I'm real interested in the map: face-off and FS.
Also..if Daybreak is basically a remodel of match point, I'm not surprised at all. Still want the exact model in action though as well as Sniper Ridge. If we want to help the tyrant get back into form, might as well bring back Katrina too lol.
I think it's funny how many people are doubting the all golds on fighting spirit. Sure it's crazy, but the map has to pass some minimum bar to make it to a "release" like this. Sure there have been Kespa maps that actually made it into PL which were really bad, but it's pretty few and far between. The map makers have done their homework here, I'ld guess it's better than 50% chance that all golds Fighting Spirit will make it and be balanced enough.
On March 19 2013 02:46 Bisu-Fan wrote: I'll just do the translation for the Fighting Spirit one... Finals week and I don't have much time (what am I doing here haha)
Concept: This map draws upon the "National" BW map, Fighting Spirit, and encourages new concepts of worker supply and resource management.
Key Features: 1) In current SC2 maps, the worker count takes up too much of the supply and the army count takes a direct hit. Also, it is hard to play in a wide, spread out style of 5 or more bases. 2) Each base has 6 rich mineral patches and 1 high yield gas. 3) Hence the army count can increase, and players can play the map in a more spread out, expanding manner. 4) Also, since the mineral intake rate is higher, the amount of time for build orders to progress become shorter, and the play becomes much more dynamic.
Misc: 1) Every main has 6 mineral patches that return 7 minerals per trip (a total of 10,800 minerals) and 1 geyser that returns 8 gas per trip (4500 gas). 2) Compared to the normal map with 12,000 minerals and 5000 gas, there are 10% less resources. Compound that with the faster resource mining rate and the bases mine out roughly 10-15% faster. 3) Because the fewer mineral patches per base, the resource intake rate is not as affected and will not affect army sizes as much. However, the due to the shorter time it takes to mine out, this map encourages faster, more aggressive expansions rather than defensive, turtling (yes, I'm a BW fan, but the article actually says "sitting down") play.
According to this, the mining rate in FS is going to be close to what it used to be in BW. I like the idea.
Seriously some of the coolest and most interesting maps to ever hit the scene. Goddamn, Fighting Spirit, Face-Off, Artemis, Colosseum, they're all so unique and cool!
I am especially interested in Artemis and Face-Off. Artemis has no standard third, just a bunch of mini-gold bases, and Face-Off is essentially two different maps depending on the spawn positions.
Have any of you played this map? Go and play it right now and tell me how un-brood war it plays like. I remember maxing my army off of two bases in brood war.
On March 19 2013 04:31 grunge wrote: Have any of you played this map? Go and play it right now and tell me how un-brood war it plays like. I remember maxing my army off of two bases in brood war.
Concept: This map draws upon the "National" BW map, Fighting Spirit, and encourages new concepts of worker supply and resource management.
Key Features: 1) In current SC2 maps, the worker count takes up too much of the supply and the army count takes a direct hit. Also, it is hard to play in a wide, spread out style of 5 or more bases. 2) Each base has 6 rich mineral patches and 1 high yield gas. 3) Hence the army count can increase, and players can play the map in a more spread out, expanding manner. 4) Also, since the mineral intake rate is higher, the amount of time for build orders to progress become shorter, and the play becomes much more dynamic.
Misc: 1) Every main has 6 mineral patches that return 7 minerals per trip (a total of 10,800 minerals) and 1 geyser that returns 8 gas per trip (4500 gas). 2) Compared to the normal map with 12,000 minerals and 5000 gas, there are 10% less resources. Compound that with the faster resource mining rate and the bases mine out roughly 10-15% faster. 3) Because the fewer mineral patches per base, the resource intake rate is not as affected and will not affect army sizes as much. However, the due to the shorter time it takes to mine out, this map encourages faster, more aggressive expansions rather than defensive, turtling (yes, I'm a BW fan, but the article actually says "sitting down") play.
According to this, the mining rate in FS is going to be close to what it used to be in BW. I like the idea.
Actually, that is so far from the truth. lol This SC2 FS mines even faster than vanilla SC2. Yes, the specific mining rate numbers may be close to BW's, but due to perfect pathing and AI etc, SC2 with the same numbers makes it super high income. This has been tested extensively by many people, most notably Barrin.
I wish I knew Korean so I could tell KESPA directly. ><
■ Sanctuary v0.1 (생츄어리) ▶ # of players : 2 (1, 7 o'clock) ▶ Size : 128 × 128 ▶ Rush distance : 32 secs ▶ Mapmaker : Jacky (박근호) ▶ Concept The map has line symmetry, and players can take their 2nd expansions depending on their preferences. ▶ Characteristics ① 2nd expansions can be taken to player's preference. ② One is close ground-distance wise, but is easily accessible by enemy air units, and therefore susceptible to air raids and drops. The other base is the opposite, and on a path to the 4th base, but is near potential battlegrounds requiring swift defense should it be under attack. ③ Players can take expansions according to their styles and play the game out drawing out their strengths. ④ Many expansions are around 5 o'clock - a key point where players will constantly battle over. However, even if one loses control over there, he or she can take a strategic position towards 11, taking secret bases or utilizing the short air route, leaving open possibilities of a comeback.
■ Artemis v0.1 (아르테미스) ▶ # of players : 4 (1, 5, 7, 11 o'clock) ▶ Size : 172 × 172 ▶ Rush distance : horizontal/vertical 33 secs, diagonal 43 secs ▶ Mapmaker : Str18-02 (우상희) ▶ Concept The map reduces positional imbalances from rotationally symmetrical maps. Battlegrounds are large and expansions have high-yield resources allowing for bigger armies, diverse army compositions, and various strategies.
▶ Characteristics ① 3rd and 4th bases are high yield so worker to army ratio in lategame will be lower. ② The map is very big so mobility is emphasized. ③ 3rd and 4th bases are near but to secure additional expansions, map control is a must. ▶ Other notes High yield minerals return 7 minerals and 6 gas per trip.
■ Colosseum v0.1 (콜로세움) ▶ # of players : 4 (1, 5, 7, 11 o'clock) ▶ Size : 156 × 156 ▶ Rush distance : horizontal/vertical 28 secs, diagonally 32 secs ▶ Mapmaker : Str18-02 (우상희) ▶ Concept The hills surrounding the lower middle area makes the map look like a Colosseum. Offensive maneuvers to take control of the hills are key here. This map was remade to suit Heart of the Swarm after it showed many entertaining games in Brood War.
▶ Characteristics ① Map was remade so uphill mechanics would not destroy balance, but still relevant in the mid-lategame. ② In SC2, when an opponent secured your highground, it is too difficult to break out so map was changed to make both hills only accessible to the nearby spawner. ③ However if a player only turtles, the opponent can gain access to the hill through destructible rocks, and another pathway can be made by the same method, encourage offensive play.
■ Face Off v0.1 (페이스 오프) ▶ # of players : 4 (1, 5, 7, 11 o'clock) ▶ Size : 136 × 136 ▶ Rush distance : 1~7 35 secs / 5~11 42 secs ▶ Mapmaker : Lunatic Sounds (주종현) ▶ Concept The map creates different battle situations and map characteristics with two unique spawning position pairs within one map,
▶ Characteristics ① Only spawns diagonally - either 1/7 or 5/11 positions. ② 1~7 position calls for standard play, taking natural, then 3rd on the nearby hill then expanding counter-clockwise. ③ With 5~11 positions, air distance is short while the ground distance is much longer. Players can take either bases after their natural, and they will fight with high-tier units since they can secure four bases relatively easily.
■ Fighting Spirit v0.1 (투혼) ▶ # of spawns : 4 (1, 5, 7. 11 o'clock) ▶ Size : 152 × 152 ▶ Rush distance : horizontal/vertical 32 secs, diagonal 39 secs ▶ Mapmaker : Lunatic Sounds (주종현) ▶ Concept A SC2 port of one of the most popular maps in SC:BW, "Fighting Spirit", this remake was done with a novel approach to resource management and supply composition in mind on familiar terrains to produce new gameplay.
▶ Features ① Currently in SC2 [compared to BW] workers take up more supply, bringing the the total army supply lower; in addition it is hard to see games where players take 5+ expansions across the map. ② All of the bases have 6 high-yield mineral patches that return 7 per trip, and 1 high-yield geyser that return 8 per trip. ③ Hence compared to normal maps ratio of worker supply goes down, making players fight with bigger armies, taking multiple bases over the entire map. ④ With high yield resources, builds will be executed faster, making the overall play faster and more dynamic.
▶ Other notes ① Each base has 6 gold mineral patches (1800 each) that returns 7 per trip (total of 10800 minerals) and 1 rich geyser (4500) that returns 8. ② Compared to standard maps (12000 minerals/5000 gas per base) the total resources per base is about 10% lower and mine faster, so they will run dry about 10-15% faster. ③ Hence once optimal worker count has been reached, income and army production capacity does not significant differ from standard maps; however since resources will be depleted quicker, players are forced to utilize the whole map and take faster expansions rather than turtle.
On March 19 2013 04:24 revy wrote: I think it's funny how many people are doubting the all golds on fighting spirit. Sure it's crazy, but the map has to pass some minimum bar to make it to a "release" like this. Sure there have been Kespa maps that actually made it into PL which were really bad, but it's pretty few and far between. The map makers have done their homework here, I'ld guess it's better than 50% chance that all golds Fighting Spirit will make it and be balanced enough.
thus far;;... Planet S and Bifrost have been god-sends. One of which is so good..it's become a staple in Ladder + GSL Caldeum is also a lot of fun. Arkanoid...has produced a lot of funny games...but this map seems to have its own little system where none of the current stratgies applies and you have to improvise new ones and adapt to a completely different meta game
I feel FS and Face off are guaranteed to be great maps. Not sure about Colosseum and the others.
I feel what's lacking in SC2 is battling for expos..the more I think about all the maps... In SC:BW, after the mid games, what players were fighting for was position + mining bases, constantly taking each other expansions and trying to mine teh hell out of it. In SC2: WoL/HoTS, what players are fighting for is position + eliminating mining bases, rather than recapturing them since the maps are designed in a way that an expansion always favors one person over the other from a defensive standpoint
People REALLY need to read Barin's analysis on base resource management in map making before saying anything about this FS. Kespa's analysis seems extremely off, as any kind of testing has shown that this is not the way to go about making more BW-esque dynamic maps.
On March 19 2013 04:53 ch33psh33p wrote: People REALLY need to read Barin's analysis on base resource management in map making before saying anything about this FS. Kespa's analysis seems extremely off, as any kind of testing has shown that this is not the way to go about making more BW-esque dynamic maps.
Didn't he come to the conclusion that 6 mineral fields didn't work out as well as he expected? If the map doesn't work out I'm sure kespa will drop the idea, but hey, it will lead to some weird games for now ^^
On March 19 2013 04:53 ch33psh33p wrote: People REALLY need to read Barin's analysis on base resource management in map making before saying anything about this FS. Kespa's analysis seems extremely off, as any kind of testing has shown that this is not the way to go about making more BW-esque dynamic maps.
Didn't he come to the conclusion that 6 mineral fields didn't work out as well as he expected? If the map doesn't work out I'm sure kespa will drop the idea, but hey, it will lead to some weird games for now ^^
Yes he did. He updated it to 8 minerals, 4 per trip, 1 hyg, 6 per trip. That is very close to BW. However, Barrin also denounced the newer FRB, stating it was not what he had in mind. Economy wise it was fine, but he wants more (high ground advantage, etc) to SC2.
Just thinking economy alone, KESPA should use FRB, imo. While it could be better, FRB is quite easy to implement, so it would be a good approach.
(I feel like I have repeated this so many times in this thread, but no one reads and are just saying the same things lol oh well)
On March 19 2013 04:53 ch33psh33p wrote: People REALLY need to read Barin's analysis on base resource management in map making before saying anything about this FS. Kespa's analysis seems extremely off, as any kind of testing has shown that this is not the way to go about making more BW-esque dynamic maps.
Didn't he come to the conclusion that 6 mineral fields didn't work out as well as he expected? If the map doesn't work out I'm sure kespa will drop the idea, but hey, it will lead to some weird games for now ^^
Yes he did. He updated it to 8 minerals, 4 per trip, 1 hyg, 6 per trip. That is very close to BW. However, Barrin also denounced the newer FRB, stating it was not what he had in mind. Economy wise it was fine, but he wants more (high ground advantage, etc) to SC2.
Just thinking economy alone, KESPA should use FRB, imo. While it could be better, FRB is quite easy to implement, so it would be a good approach.
(I feel like I have repeated this so many times in this thread, but no one reads and are just saying the same things lol oh well)
On March 19 2013 04:53 ch33psh33p wrote: People REALLY need to read Barin's analysis on base resource management in map making before saying anything about this FS. Kespa's analysis seems extremely off, as any kind of testing has shown that this is not the way to go about making more BW-esque dynamic maps.
Didn't he come to the conclusion that 6 mineral fields didn't work out as well as he expected? If the map doesn't work out I'm sure kespa will drop the idea, but hey, it will lead to some weird games for now ^^
Yes he did. He updated it to 8 minerals, 4 per trip, 1 hyg, 6 per trip. That is very close to BW. However, Barrin also denounced the newer FRB, stating it was not what he had in mind. Economy wise it was fine, but he wants more (high ground advantage, etc) to SC2.
Just thinking economy alone, KESPA should use FRB, imo. While it could be better, FRB is quite easy to implement, so it would be a good approach.
(I feel like I have repeated this so many times in this thread, but no one reads and are just saying the same things lol oh well)
isnt FRB a mod?
I think it only involved map making changes however feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
these maps are so different from most of the other maps we got (if not all), so im looking forward to R4 with these maps, or at least some of them. Which maps will they be dropping, the GSL-maps and arkanoid?
On March 19 2013 04:53 ch33psh33p wrote: People REALLY need to read Barin's analysis on base resource management in map making before saying anything about this FS. Kespa's analysis seems extremely off, as any kind of testing has shown that this is not the way to go about making more BW-esque dynamic maps.
Didn't he come to the conclusion that 6 mineral fields didn't work out as well as he expected? If the map doesn't work out I'm sure kespa will drop the idea, but hey, it will lead to some weird games for now ^^
Yes he did. He updated it to 8 minerals, 4 per trip, 1 hyg, 6 per trip. That is very close to BW. However, Barrin also denounced the newer FRB, stating it was not what he had in mind. Economy wise it was fine, but he wants more (high ground advantage, etc) to SC2.
Just thinking economy alone, KESPA should use FRB, imo. While it could be better, FRB is quite easy to implement, so it would be a good approach.
(I feel like I have repeated this so many times in this thread, but no one reads and are just saying the same things lol oh well)
isnt FRB a mod?
I think it only involved map making changes however feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
i am not that familiar with it, but i recall that it made a bunch of changes to gameplay and resource gathering in addition to just limiting the number of mineral patches/geysers.
Gameplay Modifications:
Mineral: 4 minerals per trip (from 5), new graphic Rich Mineral: 6 minerals per trip (from 7) Gas: 5000 gas per geyser (from 2500) Gas: 4 per trip gas geysers gone (basically), you can only use 6 per trip geysers, sorry. MULE: 24 minerals per trip (from 30) Inject Larva: 3 larva per cast (from 4)
On March 19 2013 04:53 ch33psh33p wrote: People REALLY need to read Barin's analysis on base resource management in map making before saying anything about this FS. Kespa's analysis seems extremely off, as any kind of testing has shown that this is not the way to go about making more BW-esque dynamic maps.
Didn't he come to the conclusion that 6 mineral fields didn't work out as well as he expected? If the map doesn't work out I'm sure kespa will drop the idea, but hey, it will lead to some weird games for now ^^
Yes he did. He updated it to 8 minerals, 4 per trip, 1 hyg, 6 per trip. That is very close to BW. However, Barrin also denounced the newer FRB, stating it was not what he had in mind. Economy wise it was fine, but he wants more (high ground advantage, etc) to SC2.
Just thinking economy alone, KESPA should use FRB, imo. While it could be better, FRB is quite easy to implement, so it would be a good approach.
(I feel like I have repeated this so many times in this thread, but no one reads and are just saying the same things lol oh well)
isnt FRB a mod?
I think it only involved map making changes however feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
i am not that familiar with it, but i recall that it made a bunch of changes to gameplay and resource gathering in addition to just limiting the number of mineral patches/geysers.
On March 19 2013 04:49 LighT. wrote: I feel what's lacking in SC2 is battling for expos..the more I think about all the maps... In SC:BW, after the mid games, what players were fighting for was position + mining bases, constantly taking each other expansions and trying to mine teh hell out of it. In SC2: WoL/HoTS, what players are fighting for is position + eliminating mining bases, rather than recapturing them since the maps are designed in a way that an expansion always favors one person over the other from a defensive standpoint
I was thinking about seeing players take over one of the other starting positions in 4-player maps. We saw this very often in BW and not that often in SC2.
But you're right, fighting over expansions is even rarer. I don't recall players destroying expansions and putting their own expansion right on top of it in SC2. This was a very normal occurrence in BW. It's something mapmakers should encourage far more in the future.
On March 19 2013 04:53 ch33psh33p wrote: People REALLY need to read Barin's analysis on base resource management in map making before saying anything about this FS. Kespa's analysis seems extremely off, as any kind of testing has shown that this is not the way to go about making more BW-esque dynamic maps.
Didn't he come to the conclusion that 6 mineral fields didn't work out as well as he expected? If the map doesn't work out I'm sure kespa will drop the idea, but hey, it will lead to some weird games for now ^^
Yes he did. He updated it to 8 minerals, 4 per trip, 1 hyg, 6 per trip. That is very close to BW. However, Barrin also denounced the newer FRB, stating it was not what he had in mind. Economy wise it was fine, but he wants more (high ground advantage, etc) to SC2.
Just thinking economy alone, KESPA should use FRB, imo. While it could be better, FRB is quite easy to implement, so it would be a good approach.
(I feel like I have repeated this so many times in this thread, but no one reads and are just saying the same things lol oh well)
isnt FRB a mod?
I think it only involved map making changes however feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
i am not that familiar with it, but i recall that it made a bunch of changes to gameplay and resource gathering in addition to just limiting the number of mineral patches/geysers.
maybe for blizzard, but any modification to the game play has to be implemented globally not on a tournament by tournament basis. it causes a bunch of practical issues.
On March 19 2013 04:53 ch33psh33p wrote: People REALLY need to read Barin's analysis on base resource management in map making before saying anything about this FS. Kespa's analysis seems extremely off, as any kind of testing has shown that this is not the way to go about making more BW-esque dynamic maps.
Didn't he come to the conclusion that 6 mineral fields didn't work out as well as he expected? If the map doesn't work out I'm sure kespa will drop the idea, but hey, it will lead to some weird games for now ^^
Yes he did. He updated it to 8 minerals, 4 per trip, 1 hyg, 6 per trip. That is very close to BW. However, Barrin also denounced the newer FRB, stating it was not what he had in mind. Economy wise it was fine, but he wants more (high ground advantage, etc) to SC2.
Just thinking economy alone, KESPA should use FRB, imo. While it could be better, FRB is quite easy to implement, so it would be a good approach.
(I feel like I have repeated this so many times in this thread, but no one reads and are just saying the same things lol oh well)
isnt FRB a mod?
I think it only involved map making changes however feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
i am not that familiar with it, but i recall that it made a bunch of changes to gameplay and resource gathering in addition to just limiting the number of mineral patches/geysers.
maybe for blizzard, but any modification to the game play has to be implemented globally not on a tournament by tournament basis. it causes a bunch of practical issues.
If anyone can, it would be KESPA that basically forces Blizzard to change something. or at least consider it much more than when the community has brought it up time and time again
On March 19 2013 04:53 ch33psh33p wrote: People REALLY need to read Barin's analysis on base resource management in map making before saying anything about this FS. Kespa's analysis seems extremely off, as any kind of testing has shown that this is not the way to go about making more BW-esque dynamic maps.
Didn't he come to the conclusion that 6 mineral fields didn't work out as well as he expected? If the map doesn't work out I'm sure kespa will drop the idea, but hey, it will lead to some weird games for now ^^
Yes he did. He updated it to 8 minerals, 4 per trip, 1 hyg, 6 per trip. That is very close to BW. However, Barrin also denounced the newer FRB, stating it was not what he had in mind. Economy wise it was fine, but he wants more (high ground advantage, etc) to SC2.
Just thinking economy alone, KESPA should use FRB, imo. While it could be better, FRB is quite easy to implement, so it would be a good approach.
(I feel like I have repeated this so many times in this thread, but no one reads and are just saying the same things lol oh well)
isnt FRB a mod?
I think it only involved map making changes however feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
i am not that familiar with it, but i recall that it made a bunch of changes to gameplay and resource gathering in addition to just limiting the number of mineral patches/geysers.
Gameplay Modifications:
Mineral: 4 minerals per trip (from 5), new graphic Rich Mineral: 6 minerals per trip (from 7) Gas: 5000 gas per geyser (from 2500) Gas: 4 per trip gas geysers gone (basically), you can only use 6 per trip geysers, sorry. MULE: 24 minerals per trip (from 30) Inject Larva: 3 larva per cast (from 4)
The main issue that I have with Barrin's second FRB mod (8min/4pertrip) is that while it reduces income to be similar to BW's, it does NOT reduce the AMOUNT of workers per base to be similar to BW's. I've always said that workers take up way too much supply in SCII...Biggest change being two gas instead of one.
This gold mineral change, while not optimum, at least allows for less workers overall meaning more army supply. I think in that regard it's a much better change.
I'm curious to see it in action, in spite of doubters. Barrin also said a year ago that he figured mapmakers were running out of creative options to make maps, but when I look at this pool of maps, I wonder.
On March 19 2013 05:52 Qwyn wrote: The main issue that I have with Barrin's second FRB mod (8min/4pertrip) is that while it reduces income to be similar to BW's, it does NOT reduce the AMOUNT of workers per base to be similar to BW's. I've always said that workers take up way too much supply in SCII...Biggest change being two gas instead of one.
This gold mineral change, while not optimum, at least allows for less workers overall meaning more army supply. I think in that regard it's a much better change.
Yeah, there are other ways of doing what you mention. The main thing about Barrin's FRB is that it is straightforward.
Increasing the mining time solves the issue you mention (I had the actual numbers to get a BW economy somewhere, but it is something along the lines of ~5 seconds with 6 per trip; by default it is ~2.7 with 5 per trip), but then you get into the area of how quickly someone saturates a base and whatnot, which is especially important to the player with fewer bases. SC2BW's implementation fixes all of these issues pretty well, but it requires triggers and messing with worker mining AI. I do not think Blizzard would like that, even though I highly prefer SC2BW's approach.
Really, though, you also have to consider that SC2 units cost more supply than BW units. Combined with macro booster mechanics, that is a huge reason why maxing is so easy.
These maps are sick. Definitely tuning in. I'm sick of seeing the same maps being played over and over, furthermore I generally don't enjoy the maps that blizzard makes.
I got to say with the insane performance by the kespa players at MLG, HOTS, and this hilariously awesome and interesting map pool I am super pumped for the next round on SPL.
I can't see how face off would possibly be balanced unless it becomes cross spawns only, but other than that the maps look like they'd be really good for the game, especially fighting spirit! However, I would like the first two to have some work done on the aesthetics, possibly including a reskin.
If that is supposed to look like the original colosseum map... they've raped it, raped it hard. :'( EDIT : it just doesnt look like the same map anymore, I wonder why they even bothered giving it the same name
Some of the maps could use some more aesthetic smuck aswell to be honest. Some of those maps look really dull, and that is not saying anything about the layout. The maps here on TL generally just look so much prettier. Gameplay wise it might still turn out to be pretty interesting tho.
On March 19 2013 06:51 Maghetti wrote: It is forced cross spawns.
uuh... what's the point of having those other (crazy) spawn positions then?
It is forced one way or the other 1/7 or 5/11.
■ Face Off v0.1 (페이스 오프) ▶ # of players : 4 (1, 5, 7, 11 o'clock) ▶ Size : 136 × 136 ▶ Rush distance : 1~7 35 secs / 5~11 42 secs ▶ Mapmaker : Lunatic Sounds (주종현) ▶ Concept The map creates different battle situations and map characteristics with two unique spawning position pairs within one map,
▶ Characteristics ① Only spawns diagonally - either 1/7 or 5/11 positions. ② 1~7 position calls for standard play, taking natural, then 3rd on the nearby hill then expanding counter-clockwise. ③ With 5~11 positions, air distance is short while the ground distance is much longer. Players can take either bases after their natural, and they will fight with high-tier units since they can secure four bases relatively easily. <-from one page back
Fighting Spirit is a map I'd be really hoping to not roll Protoss on (the wider choke at the third and also between the nat and third in conjunction with the distance between them and the gold bases = bad for Toss).
I LOVE Sanctuary, looks like it's going to be a pretty amazing map.
As always the thing to remember with Proleague is that since you race pick for the different maps imbalances won't be that imbalanced, since you won't be forced to play the maps with races that are worse on them typically.
On March 18 2013 16:45 Dodgin wrote: Kespa really isn't afraid to pull out the insane maps huh.
And that's actually good. How long we have been waiting for really good and interesting maps? And that only because no one has the balls to do it. Gladly KeSPA has them.
How many patches has each base on the Fighting Spirit remake?
On March 19 2013 01:46 Mohdoo wrote: I need to see a top tier game on all gold bases. Too awesome.
II also think it's hilarious how we all hate gold bases until the ENTIRE map is gold bases.
People generally dislike nonstandard gimmick maps. But everyone loves everything Kespa regurgitates out, especially if there's a side dish of nostalgia. Just like Arkanoid.
Indeed, talk about a double standard. Imagine Blizzard releasing a map like Artemis, it would be instantly labeled the worst map ever and nobody would ever play on it.
The fighting spirit gimmick will also never catch on, imagine re-learning every single timing just for one map. Who knows what kind of unstoppable all-ins a totally revamped economy would produce.
Overall I'm not terribly impressed with the kespa maps so far. The GSL mapmakers have a far better record in creating good maps, both aesthetically and gameplay-wise.
I agree with the KESPA maps being very aesthetically bland, but otherwise these new concepts can only increases SC 2s lifespan and maybe even better it's gameplay
I've got quite a few rants about the maps and not much good to say, so be warned in advance! I hope Str can make some better maps for KeSPA to test out.
Artemis may be the worst looking map I've ever seen, aesthetically. The layout is decent but has too many expos and isn't interesting. It looks unfathomably bad like a 3rd grader made it... but Str-18 isn't a third grader! He usually makes some good maps but this is not one of them.
Colosseum has a little better layout and aesthetics than Artemis. My only issue is that the fourth is quite difficult, which is different than the BW map (due to proportion differences in the two games). I mean, it's ok, but not what we could have.
Face Off is force cross, so either you spawn in a normal 2p map or you get a bizarre, potentially very imbalanced map. I don't like that the air distance is way farther than ground in the back to back main spawn. Other than that, the layout is relatively boring compared to maps we've seen in the past from KeSPA like Andromeda and Bifrost. The expansion line is linear and boring; the expos are placed just to maintain balance across all the spawn positions, not to be interesting.
Golden Spirit doesn't look to be made correctly imo. The ramps and chokes aren't equal for both starting positions like they were in BW. It's probably because he wants the attacker to have a 3x ramp to attack into no matter what. I guess it'll work but it could be a little unfair. Gold bases are dumb. In this case, they basically change the entire balance of SC2. They'll change builds, timings, etc. I'm fine with maps that have weird strategies like Andromeda, but not maps that just fuck up the game for the sake of fucking it up.
Sanctuary has the most clever layout, the author has done a good job laying out the map. What's bad about it is the short air distance and long ground. HotS has already shown that air play, especially Terran, is incredibly strong. The layout of Sanctuary heavily encourages turtling because air counterattacks are so easy, especially if the middle bases are taken. The aesthetics seem the best of all the maps but they're WoL! I want some new HotS textures!
On March 18 2013 16:45 Dodgin wrote: Kespa really isn't afraid to pull out the insane maps huh.
And that's actually good. How long we have been waiting for really good and interesting maps? And that only because no one has the balls to do it. Gladly KeSPA has them.
This. Great to see some real initiative in mixing up the pools. I prefer GSL overall, but throughout WoL there were many instances of them letting their pools stagnate for too long. Daybreak, Cloud, Metalopolis, Dual Site, Crossfire, and Antiga have all been maps in that league that long overstayed their welcome.
I watch GSL for top competitive play. I watch Proleague for entertainment and fantasy.
Honestly, I'm glad that there's a prestigious tournament out there that's willing to experiment with maps and try crazy stuff. It might (probably) won't be balanced, but who cares. We've got plenty of that already. Off the walls maps guarantee original and interesting play.
Edit: Of course, other tournaments can't really afford to be that crazy as it would ruin their legitimacy. It only works for Proleague because their format allows maps to be picked for specific players.
On March 19 2013 07:27 Ace Frehley wrote: These weird maps will encourage a lot of mirrors in proleague :/
The thing is, sometimes race snipers are sent out on some of these maps. Kt.Action was continuously sent out on a zerg unfavored map cause Action sucked at ZvZ and became specialized by playign zerg on that map(forget the name).
On March 19 2013 07:27 Ace Frehley wrote: These weird maps will encourage a lot of mirrors in proleague :/
The thing is, sometimes race snipers are sent out on some of these maps. Kt.Action was continuously sent out on a zerg unfavored map cause Action sucked at ZvZ and became specialized by playign zerg on that map(forget the name).
even still though, look how many mirrors were played in PL, it's pretty painful to watch
On March 19 2013 07:27 Ace Frehley wrote: These weird maps will encourage a lot of mirrors in proleague :/
The thing is, sometimes race snipers are sent out on some of these maps. Kt.Action was continuously sent out on a zerg unfavored map cause Action sucked at ZvZ and became specialized by playign zerg on that map(forget the name).
even still though, look how many mirrors were played in PL, it's pretty painful to watch
I was under the impression that the teams didn't know who the opponent was until a few days before the round, in attempt to stop match fixing.
edit:
On March 19 2013 11:24 Delphiki wrote: Hope kespa would make sniper ridge
Without high ground mechanics there isn't much soul left in the map.
On March 19 2013 05:52 Qwyn wrote: The main issue that I have with Barrin's second FRB mod (8min/4pertrip) is that while it reduces income to be similar to BW's, it does NOT reduce the AMOUNT of workers per base to be similar to BW's. I've always said that workers take up way too much supply in SCII...Biggest change being two gas instead of one.
This gold mineral change, while not optimum, at least allows for less workers overall meaning more army supply. I think in that regard it's a much better change.
Yeah, there are other ways of doing what you mention. The main thing about Barrin's FRB is that it is straightforward.
Increasing the mining time solves the issue you mention (I had the actual numbers to get a BW economy somewhere, but it is something along the lines of ~5 seconds with 6 per trip; by default it is ~2.7 with 5 per trip), but then you get into the area of how quickly someone saturates a base and whatnot, which is especially important to the player with fewer bases. SC2BW's implementation fixes all of these issues pretty well, but it requires triggers and messing with worker mining AI. I do not think Blizzard would like that, even though I highly prefer SC2BW's approach.
Really, though, you also have to consider that SC2 units cost more supply than BW units. Combined with macro booster mechanics, that is a huge reason why maxing is so easy.
Map maker's main argument seems to be connected to wanting to reduce workers per base. I don't think he'd opt for new FRB if, as you say, new FRB doesn't address saturation.
tl;dr - meaningless ramble about FRB and implications of pure gold on FS, I also love all those new maps, mostly for how different they are.
---
I don't think people in this thread fully understand the implications of the gold bases on FS (I'm not sure I do either).
They won't give you an insane economy in the middle-to-late game (unless you expand crazily and retain the same overall worker count that you're used to, both of which are probably inadvisable). It will however, give you way more minerals in the very early game.
It's hard to speak of balance since you can get more of everything earlier. Early pools seem strong though, since fewer workers yield more, you will not only have more minerals, but also have more larvae to make units with.
So many implications though.. Muling is worse compared to regular mining on an all-gold map relatively. Worker scouting is more expensive. Likewise is pulling a worker off to build, unless you're oversaturating. It's hard to think of it all - and I don't even know if harassment is stronger or weaker (fewer potential kills that are more easily replenished vs. more of an impact with each kill). Also, you require seven(!) fewer workers per base - that's almost a free expansion in and of itself - and you saturate waay faster allowing you to divert income into infrastructure earlier...
The more I think of it, the more I believe this is not the right way to go, I applaud the initiative though.
Starting with fewer workers might help some of the problems I see, but I think adjusting the ratios would also be good.
There's 10% less resources per base, for both mins and gas, but the gas is mined slower and the minerals are mined slightly faster than what we're used to in SC2. But I guess that's also more BW-esque, which seemingly is what they wanted. If they made it 5 patches with 2100 minerals instead it'd mine out in a pace we're better used to, but that'd mess up the saturation number even more...
Gah! It's been a while since I read Barrin's thread, this was probably all discussed in great length there..
In the end I just hope the map turns out to be good.. Fighting Spirit's legacy deserves to be more than just a fun little gimmick..
The other maps look as wacky as I'd hoped and expected them to be - this is Proleague after all!
Artemis does a better job a the whole FRB thing I think, maybe FS'd work if the mains were blue minerals, but ENOUGH of that already..
On Colosseum I will echo the concern of a fourth others have had aswell, really like the alternative setup it has though.
I'm happy to see 'Transistor' from the last proleague mappreview making a sort of comeback, I absolutely love the mainbase layout, it just seems nigh impossible to stop drops on such a map though.. Especially after having seen the intensive medivac afterburner usage at MLG. Also, it's a 2-in-1 map, which I'm not a big fan of (I have no rational explanation for this feeling however).
Finally, Sanctuary! A map with mirror symmetry as opposed to rotational which we ALWAYS see, that's a good thing in my book. Not as big a fan of the huge impassable lake in the middle though, and have a hard time imagining the bottom right bases coexist. I do think it could result in some interesting games though.
I realize I've sounded way too harsh on the maps, the reality is I'm psyched whenever I see atypical maps make it to leagues and tournaments, can't wait to see which of the maps here are selected and how the games to come will unfold on them, and eventually how they might patch up the maps!
On March 19 2013 04:31 grunge wrote: Have any of you played this map? Go and play it right now and tell me how un-brood war it plays like. I remember maxing my army off of two bases in brood war.
...no
i dont think $$$BGH$$$ was ever used for proleague
On March 19 2013 07:27 Ace Frehley wrote: These weird maps will encourage a lot of mirrors in proleague :/
The thing is, sometimes race snipers are sent out on some of these maps. Kt.Action was continuously sent out on a zerg unfavored map cause Action sucked at ZvZ and became specialized by playign zerg on that map(forget the name).
even still though, look how many mirrors were played in PL, it's pretty painful to watch
I was under the impression that the teams didn't know who the opponent was until a few days before the round, in attempt to stop match fixing.
that's stopped with this season of PL, they used to know the lineups only on the day to stop matchfix, but they now know it a few days before
On March 19 2013 07:27 Ace Frehley wrote: These weird maps will encourage a lot of mirrors in proleague :/
The thing is, sometimes race snipers are sent out on some of these maps. Kt.Action was continuously sent out on a zerg unfavored map cause Action sucked at ZvZ and became specialized by playign zerg on that map(forget the name).
even still though, look how many mirrors were played in PL, it's pretty painful to watch
I was under the impression that the teams didn't know who the opponent was until a few days before the round, in attempt to stop match fixing.
that's stopped with this season of PL, they used to know the lineups only on the day to stop matchfix, but they now know it a few days before
Are the two players that play on the map still chosen without the opposing team's knowledge until it is revealed?
On March 19 2013 07:27 Ace Frehley wrote: These weird maps will encourage a lot of mirrors in proleague :/
The thing is, sometimes race snipers are sent out on some of these maps. Kt.Action was continuously sent out on a zerg unfavored map cause Action sucked at ZvZ and became specialized by playign zerg on that map(forget the name).
even still though, look how many mirrors were played in PL, it's pretty painful to watch
I was under the impression that the teams didn't know who the opponent was until a few days before the round, in attempt to stop match fixing.
that's stopped with this season of PL, they used to know the lineups only on the day to stop matchfix, but they now know it a few days before
Are the two players that play on the map still chosen without the opposing team's knowledge until it is revealed?
On March 19 2013 05:52 Qwyn wrote: The main issue that I have with Barrin's second FRB mod (8min/4pertrip) is that while it reduces income to be similar to BW's, it does NOT reduce the AMOUNT of workers per base to be similar to BW's. I've always said that workers take up way too much supply in SCII...Biggest change being two gas instead of one.
This gold mineral change, while not optimum, at least allows for less workers overall meaning more army supply. I think in that regard it's a much better change.
Yeah, there are other ways of doing what you mention. The main thing about Barrin's FRB is that it is straightforward.
Increasing the mining time solves the issue you mention (I had the actual numbers to get a BW economy somewhere, but it is something along the lines of ~5 seconds with 6 per trip; by default it is ~2.7 with 5 per trip), but then you get into the area of how quickly someone saturates a base and whatnot, which is especially important to the player with fewer bases. SC2BW's implementation fixes all of these issues pretty well, but it requires triggers and messing with worker mining AI. I do not think Blizzard would like that, even though I highly prefer SC2BW's approach.
Really, though, you also have to consider that SC2 units cost more supply than BW units. Combined with macro booster mechanics, that is a huge reason why maxing is so easy.
Map maker's main argument seems to be connected to wanting to reduce workers per base. I don't think he'd opt for new FRB if, as you say, new FRB doesn't address saturation.
Yeah, that's true. I was mainly letting him know of the great data and information that was already compiled there. SC2 would not have the issue the author mentions if players were more aggressive so they are constantly remaking units and whatnot. Everything in HotS is way more aggressive than WoL, and I am thinking the author does not fully realise that, yet. I do agree with him, though. I wish SC2 was not so supply heavy on everything.
On March 19 2013 12:01 Carsten69 wrote: tl;dr - meaningless ramble about FRB and implications of pure gold on FS, I also love all those new maps, mostly for how different they are.
---
I don't think people in this thread fully understand the implications of the gold bases on FS (I'm not sure I do either).
They won't give you an insane economy in the middle-to-late game (unless you expand crazily and retain the same overall worker count that you're used to, both of which are probably inadvisable). It will however, give you way more minerals in the very early game.
It's hard to speak of balance since you can get more of everything earlier. Early pools seem strong though, since fewer workers yield more, you will not only have more minerals, but also have more larvae to make units with.
So many implications though.. Muling is worse compared to regular mining on an all-gold map relatively. Worker scouting is more expensive. Likewise is pulling a worker off to build, unless you're oversaturating. It's hard to think of it all - and I don't even know if harassment is stronger or weaker (fewer potential kills that are more easily replenished vs. more of an impact with each kill). Also, you require seven(!) fewer workers per base - that's almost a free expansion in and of itself - and you saturate waay faster allowing you to divert income into infrastructure earlier...
The more I think of it, the more I believe this is not the right way to go, I applaud the initiative though.
Starting with fewer workers might help some of the problems I see, but I think adjusting the ratios would also be good.
There's 10% less resources per base, for both mins and gas, but the gas is mined slower and the minerals are mined slightly faster than what we're used to in SC2. But I guess that's also more BW-esque, which seemingly is what they wanted. If they made it 5 patches with 2100 minerals instead it'd mine out in a pace we're better used to, but that'd mess up the saturation number even more...
Gah! It's been a while since I read Barrin's thread, this was probably all discussed in great length there..
In the end I just hope the map turns out to be good.. Fighting Spirit's legacy deserves to be more than just a fun little gimmick..
All you have to do is try the map out for yourself (Global Play). Yes, we are aware that the map gives an insane income in the early game. That is one of the reasons why the author made it that way (reduce the early "boring" build order time), even though I feel that segment of the game should still be there (and is already way too quick in SC2). All of these implications you mention have already been discussed. Also, the implications of gold bases and 1 high yield gas have been tested on a basic/intermediate levels, but it has never been shown how the best players work with it. While it would accomplish some things differently, FRB was mentioned just as a valid suggestion, since it has some data to show how it affects the game.
As for balance? Zerg seems to be really strong on these sort of maps. Starbow had a similar income, and while it is a pretty different mod from SC2, in terms of production and expandability, Zerg was just so strong when Starbow was in that phase of testing.
MULEing rate can be fixed to be more in line with the increased mining rate, but I did not check if the author tweaked that. I do not even think MULEs are necessary, though. Perhaps in the late game, but it may not even be optimal to go immediate Orbital Command upon Barracks.
I think it is pretty obvious that changing the income/resource structure (and ultimately the income curve itself) so drastically is going to affect balance. Blizzard should improve the SC2 economy before they try and balance via unit changes, if they are going to interfere in the first place. I kind of wish KESPA would take that matter into their own hands, but I think once they see that the balance on such maps is totally wack, they are going to revert or try other things, yet those other things will otherwise be centred around the units for balance, which is the wrong way to go.
All in all, even if it is severely imbalanced, I am looking forward to what crazy things the players can do on such a map, because I know it'll be crazy.
I played Fighting Spirit on the Korean server yesterday and I actually liked how it wasn't worth muling because it meant a) I had more scans and b) I didn't have to get an orbital straight away if I didn't want to, which meant I had the extra 150 minerals towards something else like an extra factory early.
Even if the gold minerals don't work I really hope they add the map with a normal mineral layout. I love Fighting Spirit so damn much.
The Main-Natural layout of the inside mains of Face-Off looked really familiar to me. I then remembered it looks a bit similar to a new 3-player map they were testing before the current PL season started. http://www.twitch.tv/nicegametv/b/342513719 (at 1:30:00)
Maybe this could work for maps like Artemis and the new Fighting Spirit: Icarus set a precedent for mixed mineral fields with some gold and some plain. If these two maps turn out to give you too much income, they can tune this by replacing a few of the mineral patches by common blue ones. To me it would make more sense to have at least two blue patches for the natural bases for Fighting Spirit.
I love how KeSPA is making new maps, should help vary up the playstyle and lead to interesting games. Too bad we are stuck on the same maps on ladder for what seems like eternity!
On March 20 2013 03:46 BigFan wrote: I love how KeSPA is making new maps, should help vary up the playstyle and lead to interesting games. Too bad we are stuck on the same maps on ladder for what seems like eternity!
Thankfully Blizzard said they'll rotate them a lot more often which is good news :D
On March 20 2013 03:46 BigFan wrote: I love how KeSPA is making new maps, should help vary up the playstyle and lead to interesting games. Too bad we are stuck on the same maps on ladder for what seems like eternity!
Thankfully Blizzard said they'll rotate them a lot more often which is good news :D
Blizzard says a lot of things. They won't introduce whacky Kespa maps to the ladder certainly.
Blizzard should increase the number of maps and give us a few more vote-outs. It would be cool to have a vote-out process between you and your opponent among some of the maps you have not played last or something like that.
On March 20 2013 03:46 BigFan wrote: I love how KeSPA is making new maps, should help vary up the playstyle and lead to interesting games. Too bad we are stuck on the same maps on ladder for what seems like eternity!
Thankfully Blizzard said they'll rotate them a lot more often which is good news :D
Blizzard says a lot of things. They won't introduce whacky Kespa maps to the ladder certainly.
On March 20 2013 03:46 BigFan wrote: I love how KeSPA is making new maps, should help vary up the playstyle and lead to interesting games. Too bad we are stuck on the same maps on ladder for what seems like eternity!
Thankfully Blizzard said they'll rotate them a lot more often which is good news :D
Blizzard says a lot of things. They won't introduce whacky Kespa maps to the ladder certainly.
On March 20 2013 03:46 BigFan wrote: I love how KeSPA is making new maps, should help vary up the playstyle and lead to interesting games. Too bad we are stuck on the same maps on ladder for what seems like eternity!
Thankfully Blizzard said they'll rotate them a lot more often which is good news :D
Blizzard says a lot of things. They won't introduce whacky Kespa maps to the ladder certainly.
Planet S...?
It's not whacky.
It is whacky. Less than others Kespa has made, but whacky.
Zomg fighting spirit! I'm having flashbacks on playing FS all the time in BW ladder since every room is playing on it. I remembered flash doing horrible things (that 999999 tank turtle) on this map while watching zerg units die to tank fire
Fighting spirit is probably the most stupid map I have ever seen... I just don't understand the logic behind that map. You'll have more minerals than normal, but the gas amount will remain the same. So as protoss or zerg, you'll just have to double expand to get rid of the mineral overflow (or make a ton of lings/zealots, but of course we all know that this would be a stupid thing to do in all match ups), where terran can either bunker rush/marine rush or also double expand. My point is that there are more viable options for terran on this map, than for the other 2 races. BAD.
All the above is of course if they decide to not add rich vespene geysers to the main bases.
On March 22 2013 12:56 Tabashi wrote: Fighting spirit is probably the most stupid map I have ever seen... I just don't understand the logic behind that map. You'll have more minerals than normal, but the gas amount will remain the same. So as protoss or zerg, you'll just have to double expand to get rid of the mineral overflow (or make a ton of lings/zealots, but of course we all know that this would be a stupid thing to do in all match ups), where terran can either bunker rush/marine rush or also double expand. My point is that there are more viable options for terran on this map, than for the other 2 races. BAD.
All the above is of course if they decide to not add rich vespene geysers to the main bases.
All geysers on Fighting Spirit are rich vespene geysers.
On March 22 2013 12:56 Tabashi wrote: Fighting spirit is probably the most stupid map I have ever seen... I just don't understand the logic behind that map. You'll have more minerals than normal, but the gas amount will remain the same. So as protoss or zerg, you'll just have to double expand to get rid of the mineral overflow (or make a ton of lings/zealots, but of course we all know that this would be a stupid thing to do in all match ups), where terran can either bunker rush/marine rush or also double expand. My point is that there are more viable options for terran on this map, than for the other 2 races. BAD.
All the above is of course if they decide to not add rich vespene geysers to the main bases.
All geysers on Fighting Spirit are rich vespene geysers.
On March 22 2013 12:56 Tabashi wrote: Fighting spirit is probably the most stupid map I have ever seen... I just don't understand the logic behind that map. You'll have more minerals than normal, but the gas amount will remain the same. So as protoss or zerg, you'll just have to double expand to get rid of the mineral overflow (or make a ton of lings/zealots, but of course we all know that this would be a stupid thing to do in all match ups), where terran can either bunker rush/marine rush or also double expand. My point is that there are more viable options for terran on this map, than for the other 2 races. BAD.
All the above is of course if they decide to not add rich vespene geysers to the main bases.
All geysers on Fighting Spirit are rich vespene geysers.
2x Geysers. Usual rich vespene is 1.5x
Ah, yes. Was about to edit that into my post.
The Fighting Spirit rich geysers are modded to return 8 gas per trip, as opposed to the 4 gas for normal geysers or 6 gas for the original rich geysers.
which means you'll mine just as much gas per base as usually, but you only need half the workers to do it. the map is really an experiment on what would happen if you change the economy of sc2. i hope we get to see a lot of lategame (although i'm a little doubtful), as smart players would get much fewer workers on FS, which leads to some interesting implications. it's probably gonna be mostly TvT though.
On March 19 2013 21:31 Qikz wrote: I played Fighting Spirit on the Korean server yesterday and I actually liked how it wasn't worth muling because it meant a) I had more scans and b) I didn't have to get an orbital straight away if I didn't want to, which meant I had the extra 150 minerals towards something else like an extra factory early.
Even if the gold minerals don't work I really hope they add the map with a normal mineral layout. I love Fighting Spirit so damn much.
Have you tried going for mass extra supplies? I remember that BaBy I think was experimenting using his OC energy on those instead of mules and it really changed up everything.
I would love if the creativity of the KeSPA players would bring underused mechanics such as this, and contaminate into mass use. Because I think, from a viewer's point of view contaminating a robo seconds before the crucial unit comes out is really tense and good to watch. And well, extra supply would just leave to fun strats probably where you can save 5-600 minerals for 2 extra raxes - also makes drops destroying supply depots that much more valuable.
On March 19 2013 21:31 Qikz wrote: I played Fighting Spirit on the Korean server yesterday and I actually liked how it wasn't worth muling because it meant a) I had more scans and b) I didn't have to get an orbital straight away if I didn't want to, which meant I had the extra 150 minerals towards something else like an extra factory early.
Even if the gold minerals don't work I really hope they add the map with a normal mineral layout. I love Fighting Spirit so damn much.
Have you tried going for mass extra supplies? I remember that BaBy I think was experimenting using his OC energy on those instead of mules and it really changed up everything.
I would love if the creativity of the KeSPA players would bring underused mechanics such as this, and contaminate into mass use. Because I think, from a viewer's point of view contaminating a robo seconds before the crucial unit comes out is really tense and good to watch. And well, extra supply would just leave to fun strats probably where you can save 5-600 minerals for 2 extra raxes - also makes drops destroying supply depots that much more valuable.
Extra supply also means you get 16 supply for 100 minerals, so you don't need to spend the minerals and those minerals would actually be not on the map to begin with. A very good Terran would also use extra supplies with 3 OCs on 2 base, when he cannot take his 3rd yet, because he doesn't really want to mule and mine out his 2 bases faster.
On March 20 2013 03:46 BigFan wrote: I love how KeSPA is making new maps, should help vary up the playstyle and lead to interesting games. Too bad we are stuck on the same maps on ladder for what seems like eternity!
Thankfully Blizzard said they'll rotate them a lot more often which is good news :D
Blizzard says a lot of things. They won't introduce whacky Kespa maps to the ladder certainly.
*Looks at Blizzard's maps.* You mean to tell me their maps aren't whacky? -.^ In either case, it's rare that they change the map pool and even rarer to see maps not from them make it, but certainly we'll see a few more creep in there sooner rather than later. Also a lot of these maps aren't that new as they are ported hallmarks trying a few different things.
KESPA Fighting Spirit was just updated with a new version. It replaces one gold mineral field with a regular one in each base (except the centre). 5gold1blue/1hyg. 8gold/2hyg in centre.
Personally, I like the early/mid game, so I think 3 and 3 would be good, or at least 4 gold and 2 blue. Oh well, we'll see. I hope this map gets used, with its non-standard resources.
On March 18 2013 16:37 FabledIntegral wrote: All gold :o. Which race would that favor...? Zerg as they can pump out drones faster as they are then limited by larvae instead of minerals? :o. Also since they start out with 3 larvae instead of 1... even slightly bigger boost early game?!
On March 18 2013 16:37 FabledIntegral wrote: All gold :o. Which race would that favor...? Zerg as they can pump out drones faster as they are then limited by larvae instead of minerals? :o. Also since they start out with 3 larvae instead of 1... even slightly bigger boost early game?!
I think Terran, because of Mules
Imagine the money
Mules don't mine extra money from gold mineral patches, I think?
On March 18 2013 16:37 FabledIntegral wrote: All gold :o. Which race would that favor...? Zerg as they can pump out drones faster as they are then limited by larvae instead of minerals? :o. Also since they start out with 3 larvae instead of 1... even slightly bigger boost early game?!
I think Terran, because of Mules
Imagine the money
Mules don't mine extra money from gold mineral patches, I think?
You are right. There was a patch that changed it a while back
Gold minerals benefit Terran the least, as MULEs will not mean as much. I do not think the creator changed the amount of minerals per trip for MULEs, so yeah.
Fighting Spirit has been updated again. As of this post, the changes are live only on KR. They got rid of "Type 2" of the map and just updated "[Test] KESPA Fighting Spirit".
2 regular vespene geysers in each main, still 5 gold and 1 blue minerals in all bases. 1 high yield gas (8 per trip) in all other bases.
They probably wanted to smooth out the early game gas income. I would still like fewer gold patches per base, though. At least, in the main, so there will be more of a early/mid game. I miss it so.
I hope that this becomes a popular map. Even though it is not perfect, experimenting with resources is good. I am sort of afraid Fighting Spirit may flop and then no other maps will try similar resources. Hope that KESPA can improve SC2! Maybe they will eventually implement a high-ground mechanic.
The novelty factor of HotS will only last so long before the game ultimately reverts to being stale... For some, I am sure that has already started even though the expansion just came out and professionals have not figured it out completely. Though, I do not think there is quite as much to figure out as people think.
The best thing that could happen is if Blizzard did something, but they will probably leave ladder maps like they are for a very long time. =\
On March 27 2013 07:02 jinorazi wrote: "it doesnt get extra boost from gold = disadvantage" ????
mule is still an advantage like any other time. (more minerals per trip + mine on top of scv)
Mules mine the same amount as an scv on Gold mineral patches, a patch changed this a while back.
Not the same as an scv, just the same as they do on blue minerals I believe. Gold gives a boost to drones, probes, scvs but not mules so mules are not as good as on another map, but they are still good.
It's possible with how fast you mine out and how much less effective they are that supply drops might be better than mules though. But a supply depot also still costs the same amount which is fewer SCV trips, so the math is the same except that you mine out faster. And FS isn't like a super easy expansion map in SC2 so you might be on a pretty low base count a lot. This is their goal I think, so you have less supply in workers and more in army.
On March 27 2013 06:49 purakushi wrote: Fighting Spirit has been updated again. As of this post, the changes are live only on KR. They got rid of "Type 2" of the map and just updated "[Test] KESPA Fighting Spirit".
2 regular vespene geysers in each main, still 5 gold and 1 blue minerals in all bases. 1 high yield gas (8 per trip) in all other bases.
They probably wanted to smooth out the early game gas income. I would still like fewer gold patches per base, though. At least, in the main, so there will be more of a early/mid game. I miss it so.
I hope that this becomes a popular map. Even though it is not perfect, experimenting with resources is good. I am sort of afraid Fighting Spirit may flop and then no other maps will try similar resources. Hope that KESPA can improve SC2! Maybe they will eventually implement a high-ground mechanic.
The novelty factor of HotS will only last so long before the game ultimately reverts to being stale... For some, I am sure that has already started even though the expansion just came out and professionals have not figured it out completely. Though, I do not think there is quite as much to figure out as people think.
The best thing that could happen is if Blizzard did something, but they will probably leave ladder maps like they are for a very long time. =\
Golds just don't work, because how cheap and flexible Zerg production is,especially at the start a problem with golds. And if you keep the Main blue, Terrans will simply lift. In Addition Mules don't equal out the other races worker bonus with pure golds, which puts them at a disadvantage. Of course you can fix those imbalanes by putting in other imbalances. So I prefer the Icarus idea, because you can optimize income even more by tending to your workers. And changing maps is okay. Changing game mechanics is a no go as it throws of alot muscle training people have done. So you won't see that happen, atleast by Kespa who wants their players to be seen as elites.
On March 27 2013 06:49 purakushi wrote: Fighting Spirit has been updated again. As of this post, the changes are live only on KR. They got rid of "Type 2" of the map and just updated "[Test] KESPA Fighting Spirit".
2 regular vespene geysers in each main, still 5 gold and 1 blue minerals in all bases. 1 high yield gas (8 per trip) in all other bases.
They probably wanted to smooth out the early game gas income. I would still like fewer gold patches per base, though. At least, in the main, so there will be more of a early/mid game. I miss it so.
I hope that this becomes a popular map. Even though it is not perfect, experimenting with resources is good. I am sort of afraid Fighting Spirit may flop and then no other maps will try similar resources. Hope that KESPA can improve SC2! Maybe they will eventually implement a high-ground mechanic.
The novelty factor of HotS will only last so long before the game ultimately reverts to being stale... For some, I am sure that has already started even though the expansion just came out and professionals have not figured it out completely. Though, I do not think there is quite as much to figure out as people think.
The best thing that could happen is if Blizzard did something, but they will probably leave ladder maps like they are for a very long time. =\
Golds just don't work, because how cheap and flexible Zerg production is,especially at the start a problem with golds. And if you keep the Main blue, Terrans will simply lift. In Addition Mules don't equal out the other races worker bonus with pure golds, which puts them at a disadvantage. Of course you can fix those imbalanes by putting in other imbalances. So I prefer the Icarus idea, because you can optimize income even more by tending to your workers. And changing maps is okay. Changing game mechanics is a no go as it throws of alot muscle training people have done. So you won't see that happen, atleast by Kespa who wants their players to be seen as elites.
I think you're point there is kind of counter intuative. If anything the players who can react to change more readily (even if it is in game mechanics (which wouldn't be a bad thing if different maps mixed it up)) would be seen as the elites and the Kespa players who (likely) practice the most would find it easier to change.
On March 27 2013 06:49 purakushi wrote: Fighting Spirit has been updated again. As of this post, the changes are live only on KR. They got rid of "Type 2" of the map and just updated "[Test] KESPA Fighting Spirit".
2 regular vespene geysers in each main, still 5 gold and 1 blue minerals in all bases. 1 high yield gas (8 per trip) in all other bases.
They probably wanted to smooth out the early game gas income. I would still like fewer gold patches per base, though. At least, in the main, so there will be more of a early/mid game. I miss it so.
I hope that this becomes a popular map. Even though it is not perfect, experimenting with resources is good. I am sort of afraid Fighting Spirit may flop and then no other maps will try similar resources. Hope that KESPA can improve SC2! Maybe they will eventually implement a high-ground mechanic.
The novelty factor of HotS will only last so long before the game ultimately reverts to being stale... For some, I am sure that has already started even though the expansion just came out and professionals have not figured it out completely. Though, I do not think there is quite as much to figure out as people think.
The best thing that could happen is if Blizzard did something, but they will probably leave ladder maps like they are for a very long time. =\
Golds just don't work, because how cheap and flexible Zerg production is,especially at the start a problem with golds. And if you keep the Main blue, Terrans will simply lift. In Addition Mules don't equal out the other races worker bonus with pure golds, which puts them at a disadvantage. Of course you can fix those imbalanes by putting in other imbalances. So I prefer the Icarus idea, because you can optimize income even more by tending to your workers. And changing maps is okay. Changing game mechanics is a no go as it throws of alot muscle training people have done. So you won't see that happen, atleast by Kespa who wants their players to be seen as elites.
While I am not discounting that golds benefit one race more than the other, players will adapt. Design comes before balance. At least what they are *trying* to do with these resource changes is good. We shall see. I just hope the idea is not shut down just because the map itself may not be good for SC2. Though, I want FS to work, too.
As for MULEs, the amount of minerals mined is left alone (30 per trip, lasting for the same amount of time). That means Terran's unique macro mechanic is weaker than in vanilla SC2 while chronoboost and inject have no changes, so Terran loses some of the mineral edge they get with MULEs. I did tell the authors that they may want to increase the amount mined by MULEs to keep it in line with everything else, but it may not be necessary.
Really, it just boils down to gameplay. Theorycrafting is good sometimes but outright discounting something that *could* make SC2 better would be sad.
[Official] KeSPA Korhal Floating Island (this is Face Off, just renamed) [Official] KeSPA Sanctuary [Official] KeSPA Fighting Spirit
I think the first two have been left the same, but FS has changed a lot. Here is the updated version:
- Mains have 8 blue minerals and 1 high yield gas - Naturals have 8 blue minerals and 2 high yield gases (yes, this is not a typo) - Centre has 8 gold minerals and 2 high yield gases - Others have 8 blue minerals and 1 high yield gas
I really wish they stuck with the 5gold1blue minerals or some variation of that. I am just WTF at the 2 hyg at the natural. There is no way that is staying... >_>
Sigh, I was hoping KeSPA could change things up a bit. This is not the direction I was thinking. T_T
Well, something they had a lot more in BW was resource variation from base to base. This was a big way of balancing and adjusting maps, and also making them play differently from each other. Now with high yield minerals and geysers, the possible combinations are way higher.
It will take some time to figure out the exact effects on gameplay but in time it will be much better for tournament map making overall. The ability to balance maps and the ability to make maps more interesting will be higher.
Yeah, I just wish they tried something other than 8m per base. Outside of Korea, no other tournaments/organisations/Blizzard try non-standard maps/resources, so I am looking to KeSPA to work things. Oh well, time will tell/change things eventually. Hopefully, the Korean SC2 scene is not dead by then.
[Official] KeSPA Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct has been added.
It is basically a modified version of Blizzard's ladder map, Newkirk Precinct. From a quick glance, it just adds an entrance from the centre into each of the rocked expansions at 5:00 and 7:00. In doing so, it extends the ground-pathable terrain to below the lower watchtower. Some background aesthetic changes from the original, too.
On March 29 2013 03:23 purakushi wrote: [Official] KeSPA Newkirk Redevelopment has been added. (name is cut off in SC2, but I am assuming it says that)
It is basically a modified version of Blizzard's ladder map, Newkirk Precinct. From a quick glance, it just adds an entrance from the centre into each of the rocked expansions at 5:00 and 7:00. In doing so, it extends the ground-pathable terrain to below the lower watchtower. Some background aesthetic changes from the original, too.
On March 29 2013 03:23 purakushi wrote: [Official] KeSPA Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct has been added.
It is basically a modified version of Blizzard's ladder map, Newkirk Precinct. From a quick glance, it just adds an entrance from the centre into each of the rocked expansions at 5:00 and 7:00. In doing so, it extends the ground-pathable terrain to below the lower watchtower. Some background aesthetic changes from the original, too.
On March 28 2013 01:28 purakushi wrote: Seems like some maps have been made OFFICIAL
[Official] KeSPA Korhal Floating Island (this is Face Off, just renamed) [Official] KeSPA Sanctuary [Official] KeSPA Fighting Spirit
I think the first two have been left the same, but FS has changed a lot. Here is the updated version:
- Mains have 8 blue minerals and 1 high yield gas - Naturals have 8 blue minerals and 2 high yield gases (yes, this is not a typo) - Centre has 8 gold minerals and 2 high yield gases - Others have 8 blue minerals and 1 high yield gas
I really wish they stuck with the 5gold1blue minerals or some variation of that. I am just WTF at the 2 hyg at the natural. There is no way that is staying... >_>
Sigh, I was hoping KeSPA could change things up a bit. This is not the direction I was thinking. T_T
omg I don't even care about the no gold but FIGHTING SPIRIT IS BACK BITCHES. This is awesome
On March 29 2013 03:23 purakushi wrote: [Official] KeSPA Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct has been added.
It is basically a modified version of Blizzard's ladder map, Newkirk Precinct. From a quick glance, it just adds an entrance from the centre into each of the rocked expansions at 5:00 and 7:00. In doing so, it extends the ground-pathable terrain to below the lower watchtower. Some background aesthetic changes from the original, too.
Is it just me or fighting spirit all gold favors toss and zerg ? I mean, the "economic feature" of terran, to keep up with chronoboost and larvae mechanisms, is just useless on this map...
fighting spirit is a joke... It won't be fair at all... You simply can't change the resource income for the main base and expect to have any balance whatsoever...
6 patches in your main leads to saturation problems incredibly quickly which protoss has the soonest by far.. Protoss produces workers the fastest in the first few minutes (even faster than zerg because chrono kicks in earlier than extra lairs/queens for zerg) plus they expand fairly late. Terran has OC that evades oversaturation and zerg gets extra bases much quicker. It's harder to tell if the gold favors terran or zerg more but it's pretty much garanteed to screw up timings and early game balance as well. For example not all timings neccesarily improve by the same amount so the early strats like 2 rax, reapers, 6 pool will get relative advantages vs other strats because those timings are a combination of build times and gathering speed. I hope I'm somehow wrong though and protoss can manage with this setup how unlikely it is, maybe if natural and third are really easy they can expand fast enough to avoid the saturation problems other races run into far later but it's unlikely.
On March 30 2013 09:29 Ragnarork wrote: Is it just me or fighting spirit all gold favors toss and zerg ? I mean, the "economic feature" of terran, to keep up with chronoboost and larvae mechanisms, is just useless on this map...
they would make mules work. if you think about it, it's just giving everyone more minerals than the regular ones
On March 30 2013 09:31 Markwerf wrote: fighting spirit is a joke... It won't be fair at all... You simply can't change the resource income for the main base and expect to have any balance whatsoever...
6 patches in your main leads to saturation problems incredibly quickly which protoss has the soonest by far.. Protoss produces workers the fastest in the first few minutes (even faster than zerg because chrono kicks in earlier than extra lairs/queens for zerg) plus they expand fairly late. Terran has OC that evades oversaturation and zerg gets extra bases much quicker. It's harder to tell if the gold favors terran or zerg more but it's pretty much garanteed to screw up timings and early game balance as well. For example not all timings neccesarily improve by the same amount so the early strats like 2 rax, reapers, 6 pool will get relative advantages vs other strats because those timings are a combination of build times and gathering speed. I hope I'm somehow wrong though and protoss can manage with this setup how unlikely it is, maybe if natural and third are really easy they can expand fast enough to avoid the saturation problems other races run into far later but it's unlikely.
there is this thing called adaptation
and when you live in a teamhouse it's fairly easy to do since you play with a bunch of other pros all the time
so why don't we wait for actual games to be played on the map by professionals mk?
On March 30 2013 09:31 Markwerf wrote: fighting spirit is a joke... It won't be fair at all... You simply can't change the resource income for the main base and expect to have any balance whatsoever...
6 patches in your main leads to saturation problems incredibly quickly which protoss has the soonest by far.. Protoss produces workers the fastest in the first few minutes (even faster than zerg because chrono kicks in earlier than extra lairs/queens for zerg) plus they expand fairly late. Terran has OC that evades oversaturation and zerg gets extra bases much quicker. It's harder to tell if the gold favors terran or zerg more but it's pretty much garanteed to screw up timings and early game balance as well. For example not all timings neccesarily improve by the same amount so the early strats like 2 rax, reapers, 6 pool will get relative advantages vs other strats because those timings are a combination of build times and gathering speed. I hope I'm somehow wrong though and protoss can manage with this setup how unlikely it is, maybe if natural and third are really easy they can expand fast enough to avoid the saturation problems other races run into far later but it's unlikely.
there is this thing called adaptation
and when you live in a teamhouse it's fairly easy to do since you play with a bunch of other pros all the time
so why don't we wait for actual games to be played on the map by professionals mk?
lol what a nonsense argument. Just because they can't be played yet, it's impossible to reach some sensible conclusions? Fewer mineral patches has been tried to some extent already, the way the macro works for each races it just hurts protoss the most. It's quite unlikely other things can make up for this how much they try to adapt or not. Saturation rates just vastly differ for the races in sc2, the game that's tweaked for 8 patches at the main is very unlikely to support 6 patches main reasonably as well..
Other than the resource changes, the terrain changes are kinda interesting as well. They adjusted the main base ramps a bit and slightly tweaked some of the dead space holes in the middle. However, they mainly changed up the third bases, moving the big ramp back a bit and making the entire expansion be a bit tighter on space. The old version's third bases actually felt a bit spacious compared to the BW map.
On March 30 2013 09:31 Markwerf wrote: fighting spirit is a joke... It won't be fair at all... You simply can't change the resource income for the main base and expect to have any balance whatsoever...
6 patches in your main leads to saturation problems incredibly quickly which protoss has the soonest by far.. Protoss produces workers the fastest in the first few minutes (even faster than zerg because chrono kicks in earlier than extra lairs/queens for zerg) plus they expand fairly late. Terran has OC that evades oversaturation and zerg gets extra bases much quicker. It's harder to tell if the gold favors terran or zerg more but it's pretty much garanteed to screw up timings and early game balance as well. For example not all timings neccesarily improve by the same amount so the early strats like 2 rax, reapers, 6 pool will get relative advantages vs other strats because those timings are a combination of build times and gathering speed. I hope I'm somehow wrong though and protoss can manage with this setup how unlikely it is, maybe if natural and third are really easy they can expand fast enough to avoid the saturation problems other races run into far later but it's unlikely.
They changed Fighting Spirit to:
Main - 8 Blue Minerals (1500 each), 1 Normal Gas (5000) Natural - 8 Blue Minerals (1500 each), 2 Rich Gas (2500 each) Third - 8 Blue Minerals (1500 each), 1 Normal Gas (5000) Center - 8 Gold Minerals (1800 each), 2 Normal Gas (5000 each)
Keep in mind they made some other changes to Fighting Spirit from Brood War. The ramp leading to the middle of the map from the third bases is very large compared to the normal BW main ramp there. This will improve the balance from the direct conversion version we saw early in SC2's history. Originally this ramp only required one forcefield to block. There is also chunks gone in the terrain to give Protoss chokes to fight in in the middle of the map.
Also, they made much of the middle (except for the gold base) unbuildable. They have small 2x2 buildable terrain dotting on top of this, presumably for turrets, pylons, sensor towers, etc.
I found the description pretty interesting: "Naro-1, previously designated Korea Space Launch Vehicle or KSLV, is South Korea's first carrier rocket, and the first Republic of Korea launch vehicle to achieve Earth orbit." And, yes, it is true.
One interesting feature is that the natural has two entrances into it. Also, the collapsible rocks you see in the picture is actually a 500 HP, 3 armour Cooling Tower that falls over to become a 2000 HP, 3 armour Debris. Pretty cool.
Also, as of this post, only Fighting Spirit, Korhal Floating Island, Newkirk Redevelopment District, and Naro Station are official. The others have been removed.
As for the (old) change from gold minerals on FS, it could have worked, just not with how they had it. Oh well. They will figure it out eventually. I do wish all maps utilised 1 gas per base, though... or at least most bases. I will just comment that balance is not the issue here. Think if they had a better resource system in SC2, Blizzard would just balance the game around that. It is about design.
On April 01 2013 11:53 fuzzylogic44 wrote: I guess the all gold was too imbalanced. Also, what the fuck is with the names? Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct? Really?
I say it makes a lotta sense. they literally redeveloped Blizz' Newkirk Precint, hence the name -_- Also found this Naro Space Center. GJ re-skinning Sanctuary :p
On April 01 2013 11:34 purakushi wrote: [Official] KeSPA Naro Station has been added!
I found the description pretty interesting: "Naro-1, previously designated Korea Space Launch Vehicle or KSLV, is South Korea's first carrier rocket, and the first Republic of Korea launch vehicle to achieve Earth orbit." And, yes, it is true.
One interesting feature is that the natural has two entrances into it. Also, the collapsible rocks you see in the picture is actually a 500 HP, 3 armour Cooling Tower that falls over to become a 2000 HP, 3 armour Debris. Pretty cool.
Also, as of this post, only Fighting Spirit, Korhal Floating Island, Newkirk Redevelopment District, and Naro Station are official. The others have been removed.
As for the (old) change from gold minerals on FS, it could have worked, just not with how they had it. Oh well. They will figure it out eventually. I do wish all maps utilised 1 gas per base, though... or at least most bases. I will just comment that balance is not the issue here. Think if they had a better resource system in SC2, Blizzard would just balance the game around that. It is about design.
Naro Station is basically the same thing as KeSPA Sanctuary, just different tileset.
I love the map-making strategy of just making/using random shit. It might not be like any of our other maps, but that doesn't mean any of these will be at all balanced for competitive play. Good BW maps =/= Good HotS maps... Whatever though =/.
6m would probably have had too much of an impact on (current) balance. But it's good to see they are still somewhat trying to address the 3 base ceiling (1 geyser on main and third).
Won't make a huge difference. I.e. we might actually see some 4 base economies instead of 3base economies. But not much more beyond that.
Players will be eager to take 4ths on the naturals.
On April 02 2013 10:54 Blargh wrote: I love the map-making strategy of just making/using random shit. It might not be like any of our other maps, but that doesn't mean any of these will be at all balanced for competitive play. Good BW maps =/= Good HotS maps... Whatever though =/.
The point isn't to use broodwar maps, the point is to make it so all the maps aren't the exact same. Making variations in the maps can change gameplay per map, whereas currently you can pretty much do the same thing on every map.
On April 01 2013 11:34 purakushi wrote: [Official] KeSPA Naro Station has been added!
I found the description pretty interesting: "Naro-1, previously designated Korea Space Launch Vehicle or KSLV, is South Korea's first carrier rocket, and the first Republic of Korea launch vehicle to achieve Earth orbit." And, yes, it is true.
One interesting feature is that the natural has two entrances into it. Also, the collapsible rocks you see in the picture is actually a 500 HP, 3 armour Cooling Tower that falls over to become a 2000 HP, 3 armour Debris. Pretty cool.
Also, as of this post, only Fighting Spirit, Korhal Floating Island, Newkirk Redevelopment District, and Naro Station are official. The others have been removed.
As for the (old) change from gold minerals on FS, it could have worked, just not with how they had it. Oh well. They will figure it out eventually. I do wish all maps utilised 1 gas per base, though... or at least most bases. I will just comment that balance is not the issue here. Think if they had a better resource system in SC2, Blizzard would just balance the game around that. It is about design.
Naro Station is basically the same thing as KeSPA Sanctuary, just different tileset.
Yeah, same thing as happened in Planet S. Jacky made that on Xil (WoL Desert) and then ported it to a new snow/platform tileset later.
Can't complain since Sanctuary was just plain Shakuras, same as we've seen in previous maps. It did look nice, but the use of the new starship tileset is nice.
On April 02 2013 10:54 Blargh wrote: I love the map-making strategy of just making/using random shit. It might not be like any of our other maps, but that doesn't mean any of these will be at all balanced for competitive play. Good BW maps =/= Good HotS maps... Whatever though =/.
The point isn't to use broodwar maps, the point is to make it so all the maps aren't the exact same. Making variations in the maps can change gameplay per map, whereas currently you can pretty much do the same thing on every map.
the creativity in BW maps is enough to explore until 2030, plus the nostalgia value to draw old fans. Thats why KeSPA so insists on making Fighting Spirit work (and we love that)
The Newkirk City changes are awesome. Fighting Spirit looks like a really solid map, though it would of been cool to see how to gold minerals would of changed the game. The other two maps are pretty solid. Kespa has op map makers.
Now those maps look waaaaaayyyyyy better than their originals. I knew that all gold map could never go through.
I don't think it's a great idea to go crazy with maps now when the players can already go crazy with the new units and strategies in HotS since it's just been released. Glad to see that they're being more conservative with the maps than originally intended.
On April 02 2013 22:45 grapedog wrote: blizzard comes out with new maps that are weird or experimental.... get the pitchforks, hang em!
Kespa comes out with news maps that are weird or experimental.... praise kespa, long live kespa!
The hypocrisy is so thick in here its ridiculous. thats my cake, i can have, and eat it too!
It's more acceptable for kespa since the tournament they run has to care less about balance because the teams choose which players to send out on which maps. New blizzard maps are published to ladder, which we can't choose which one we are playing on, which pisses people off when they end up playing on an imbalanced map.
On April 02 2013 22:45 grapedog wrote: blizzard comes out with new maps that are weird or experimental.... get the pitchforks, hang em!
Kespa comes out with news maps that are weird or experimental.... praise kespa, long live kespa!
The hypocrisy is so thick in here its ridiculous. thats my cake, i can have, and eat it too!
This has annoyed me too. The same thing happened with GSL maps too, but with Kespa maps there seems to be an extra element to it. Like these old BW followers seem to consider everything Kespa produces a gift from god, no matter how obviously flawed it is.
On April 02 2013 22:45 grapedog wrote: blizzard comes out with new maps that are weird or experimental.... get the pitchforks, hang em!
Kespa comes out with news maps that are weird or experimental.... praise kespa, long live kespa!
The hypocrisy is so thick in here its ridiculous. thats my cake, i can have, and eat it too!
This has annoyed me too. The same thing happened with GSL maps too, but with Kespa maps there seems to be an extra element to it. Like these old BW followers seem to consider everything Kespa produces a gift from god, no matter how obviously flawed it is.
One organization has made great maps for a decade, and It tests its maps before release with progamers. The other doesn't.
Also, old BW followers know more about what KESPA has done right and wrong than those who just jumped on board the SC2 train. Perhaps they have a perspective that should be considered?
On April 02 2013 22:45 grapedog wrote: blizzard comes out with new maps that are weird or experimental.... get the pitchforks, hang em!
Kespa comes out with news maps that are weird or experimental.... praise kespa, long live kespa!
The hypocrisy is so thick in here its ridiculous. thats my cake, i can have, and eat it too!
This has annoyed me too. The same thing happened with GSL maps too, but with Kespa maps there seems to be an extra element to it. Like these old BW followers seem to consider everything Kespa produces a gift from god, no matter how obviously flawed it is.
Where are you finding these experimental blizzard maps?
All I see are badly designed maps. Keep in mind that not all, but most of the kespa maps actually have design theory behind them other than balance (concept, proportions, distances, vulnerabiities, innovative features, etc.)
On April 02 2013 22:45 grapedog wrote: blizzard comes out with new maps that are weird or experimental.... get the pitchforks, hang em!
Kespa comes out with news maps that are weird or experimental.... praise kespa, long live kespa!
The hypocrisy is so thick in here its ridiculous. thats my cake, i can have, and eat it too!
This has annoyed me too. The same thing happened with GSL maps too, but with Kespa maps there seems to be an extra element to it. Like these old BW followers seem to consider everything Kespa produces a gift from god, no matter how obviously flawed it is.
One organization has made great maps for a decade, and It tests its maps before release with progamers. The other doesn't.
Also, old BW followers know more about what KESPA has done right and wrong than those who just jumped on board the SC2 train. Perhaps they have a perspective that should be considered?
Perspective in what, how mapmaking actually works in SC2? Because to me that's what matters, we should look at the map and not who made it.
Not to even mention BW was a very different type of system where it was balanced through maps and maps alone, trying to add in wildly different map concepts in SC2 will only make a bigger mess.
Newkirk looks like a huge improvment, hopefully if it turns out as good as I think it will they will add it to the ladder instead of the current version. The other maps work because of the format, dunno if they will be good for anything else but the proleague or other team leagues though.
On April 02 2013 22:45 grapedog wrote: blizzard comes out with new maps that are weird or experimental.... get the pitchforks, hang em!
Kespa comes out with news maps that are weird or experimental.... praise kespa, long live kespa!
The hypocrisy is so thick in here its ridiculous. thats my cake, i can have, and eat it too!
This has annoyed me too. The same thing happened with GSL maps too, but with Kespa maps there seems to be an extra element to it. Like these old BW followers seem to consider everything Kespa produces a gift from god, no matter how obviously flawed it is.
One organization has made great maps for a decade, and It tests its maps before release with progamers. The other doesn't.
Also, old BW followers know more about what KESPA has done right and wrong than those who just jumped on board the SC2 train. Perhaps they have a perspective that should be considered?
except that the mapmakers for kespa are exactly the same people who made and tested the GSL maps before kespa came to sc2.
On April 02 2013 22:45 grapedog wrote: blizzard comes out with new maps that are weird or experimental.... get the pitchforks, hang em!
Kespa comes out with news maps that are weird or experimental.... praise kespa, long live kespa!
The hypocrisy is so thick in here its ridiculous. thats my cake, i can have, and eat it too!
This has annoyed me too. The same thing happened with GSL maps too, but with Kespa maps there seems to be an extra element to it. Like these old BW followers seem to consider everything Kespa produces a gift from god, no matter how obviously flawed it is.
One organization has made great maps for a decade, and It tests its maps before release with progamers. The other doesn't.
Also, old BW followers know more about what KESPA has done right and wrong than those who just jumped on board the SC2 train. Perhaps they have a perspective that should be considered?
except that the mapmakers for kespa are exactly the same people who made and tested the GSL maps before kespa came to sc2.
organizer plays a bigger role than mapmakers. Those KeSPA maps are made to order,
On April 02 2013 22:45 grapedog wrote: blizzard comes out with new maps that are weird or experimental.... get the pitchforks, hang em!
Kespa comes out with news maps that are weird or experimental.... praise kespa, long live kespa!
The hypocrisy is so thick in here its ridiculous. thats my cake, i can have, and eat it too!
This has annoyed me too. The same thing happened with GSL maps too, but with Kespa maps there seems to be an extra element to it. Like these old BW followers seem to consider everything Kespa produces a gift from god, no matter how obviously flawed it is.
One organization has made great maps for a decade, and It tests its maps before release with progamers. The other doesn't.
Also, old BW followers know more about what KESPA has done right and wrong than those who just jumped on board the SC2 train. Perhaps they have a perspective that should be considered?
except that the mapmakers for kespa are exactly the same people who made and tested the GSL maps before kespa came to sc2.
organizer plays a bigger role than mapmakers. Those KeSPA maps are made to order,
actually, the mapmakers just remake whatever BW maps they want, submit to kespa for testing and approval
and it's not like GSL doesn't do the same process with their maps, it's just that kespa mapmakers have that nostalgia factor
On April 02 2013 22:45 grapedog wrote: blizzard comes out with new maps that are weird or experimental.... get the pitchforks, hang em!
Kespa comes out with news maps that are weird or experimental.... praise kespa, long live kespa!
The hypocrisy is so thick in here its ridiculous. thats my cake, i can have, and eat it too!
This has annoyed me too. The same thing happened with GSL maps too, but with Kespa maps there seems to be an extra element to it. Like these old BW followers seem to consider everything Kespa produces a gift from god, no matter how obviously flawed it is.
One organization has made great maps for a decade, and It tests its maps before release with progamers. The other doesn't.
Also, old BW followers know more about what KESPA has done right and wrong than those who just jumped on board the SC2 train. Perhaps they have a perspective that should be considered?
except that the mapmakers for kespa are exactly the same people who made and tested the GSL maps before kespa came to sc2.
organizer plays a bigger role than mapmakers. Those KeSPA maps are made to order,
actually, the mapmakers just remake whatever BW maps they want, submit to kespa for testing and approval
and it's not like GSL doesn't do the same process with their maps, it's just that kespa mapmakers have that nostalgia factor
more like KeSPA orders them to remake Fighting Spirit, Collosseum. I read from an iview with Prime mapmaker duo that they were asked to remake Python & Nostalgia (Andromeda gold edition recently). Pretty sure they order the purpose (say, balance) that other new maps serve to some degree as well like in BW.
meanwhile, I dont know if GOM does that ordering thingy too, but they are definitely too strict on creativity and map circulation.
On April 02 2013 22:45 grapedog wrote: blizzard comes out with new maps that are weird or experimental.... get the pitchforks, hang em!
Kespa comes out with news maps that are weird or experimental.... praise kespa, long live kespa!
The hypocrisy is so thick in here its ridiculous. thats my cake, i can have, and eat it too!
This has annoyed me too. The same thing happened with GSL maps too, but with Kespa maps there seems to be an extra element to it. Like these old BW followers seem to consider everything Kespa produces a gift from god, no matter how obviously flawed it is.
One organization has made great maps for a decade, and It tests its maps before release with progamers. The other doesn't.
Also, old BW followers know more about what KESPA has done right and wrong than those who just jumped on board the SC2 train. Perhaps they have a perspective that should be considered?
except that the mapmakers for kespa are exactly the same people who made and tested the GSL maps before kespa came to sc2.
organizer plays a bigger role than mapmakers. Those KeSPA maps are made to order,
actually, the mapmakers just remake whatever BW maps they want, submit to kespa for testing and approval
and it's not like GSL doesn't do the same process with their maps, it's just that kespa mapmakers have that nostalgia factor
more like KeSPA orders them to remake Fighting Spirit, Collosseum. I read from an iview with Prime mapmaker duo that they were asked to remake Python & Nostalgia (Andromeda gold edition recently). Pretty sure they order the purpose (say, balance) that other new maps serve to some degree as well like in BW.
meanwhile, I dont know if GOM does that ordering thingy too, but they are definitely too strict on creativity and map circulation.
if you look at what those mapmakers tweet and what they say in personal correspondeance etc you'll see that yes, kespa does order maps, but a large part is them remaking on their own accord
Would have been really cool to see how the all gold patches on Fighting Spirit would have worked out.at pro level. Def would have made for much faster paced games! probably would have been primarily 1 base play though.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nAbg2ev.jpg)
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. That is interesting.
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