|
On March 22 2013 03:11 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 03:05 McBengt wrote:On March 22 2013 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 02:42 Shellshock1122 wrote:On March 22 2013 01:18 McBengt wrote:On March 22 2013 01:03 Hubble wrote:On March 21 2013 21:56 Warpish wrote:
It's ridiculous. The dialogs are terrible and the Dominion's tactical decisions make no sense at all (one Gorgon at a time, seriously!). Wasn't there an explanation for that? Like something around "they are to big"? This mission seems to resemble something like the Battle of Thermopylae. The dominion has brute military force but not enough space to use it. And how I understand it, the area the mission is played in is ment to be some kind of small canyon. It's a battlecruiser. Logic tells me it can fly over the canyon and shoot down. They are capable of orbital bombardment but in order to attack the zerg they have to fly through the canyon  If they had replaced a giant battlecruiser with a squadron of dropships dropping bombs with each pack getting bigger and bigger--then that would have been awesome. Super battlecruiser just makes me wonder why there weren't defending mengst in the last mission... Really, who the hell made Warfield a general in the first place? He's a complete tool, I could come up with a better strategy on the spot. "Hey general, they shot down this Gorgon too, just like the last two." "Send another!" "But sir, shouldn't we try-" "But nothing son! Send the damned ship, I've got a good feeling about this one!" And this is the guy who led the invasion of Char. I was half expecting Kerrigan to ask him what the fuck he was doing in the cinematic. That however is a gameplay error rather then a story error. They designed this whole creep tumor/scourge system/mission and that was just an excuse to it. Its quite obvious tbh that the story is weaved around the gameplay rather then otherwise for whole Starcraft 2.
It just feeds into the larger narrative of the Dominion as a bunch of bumbling imbeciles even more. It makes me not care about beating them, since given their complete and utter lack of strategic thinking and common sense, it is simply a foregone conclusion.
If they had used bomber squadrons as suggested, or maybe the scourges could have been used to target the Gorgons in high orbit in a brief cutscene, then it would been less silly.
|
On March 22 2013 02:37 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +I know that he warned her. That sequence quite specifically tells me: not any zerg can rebel, but an intelligent zerg can - which lead me to arrive at the conclusion that Kerrigan is not in full psionic control which was a position further supported by other instances. You somehow arrived at it meaning an intelligent zerg like Abathur has ZERO wiggle room for revolting with your only argument being "he couldn't because I do not think he is that smart as he has only ever had 1 purpose" (which is not true - he was even uncontrolled roaming around in the tunnels of char - he would clearly have a need for greater intellect). the made the broodmothers STRONGER not just smarter, the broodmothers were made to be able to control Zerg, making them smarter enhances that ability which (in addition to increased individuality) leads to possibility for revolt Abathur CANNOT control Zerg, he is physically incapable of it, he even saids that after the Overmind died that he roamed the tunnels as a beast and only once again became a Zerg AFTER Kerrigan found him, he even said that he needed an ovverriding will to be Zerg strongly implying he himself lacks and sort of will of his own Show nested quote +The script writers even fooled around with the concept of Abathur having ulterior motives and Kerrigan tricking him into developing a better version of himself - it was part of one of the previews - but this got left out and is a such not canon, but clearly showcases that even Chris Metzen was not entirely convinced of Abathurs loyalty nor his willingness to experiment on himself. As Kerrigan is not as powerful as the Overmind the Overmind could easily have made other creations that she could not control through pure psionic powers (the cerebrates forming an overmind springs to mind as another example). Kerrigan is stronger then the overmind this is stated canonicly at the very least shes his equal i dont understand why you keep saying otherwise again its canon that its harder to take control of a zerg then it is to stop someone from stealing your Zerg so since all the Cerebrates were buddy buddy and collectively protecting themselves from Kerrigan she couldnt brute force them into her swarm Show nested quote +And no, Kerrigan is not as powerful as the Overmind was when it comes to controlling the Swarm. Kerrigan would've succumbed to the control of the 2.nd overmind had it not been killed. so she said, not like she was really the beacon of honesty on Shakuras its likely she was lieing in order to get the templar to panic and hurry up instead of taking there time and looking at things calmly like Aldaris did also the overmind made Kerrigan so probably literally wrote her genes to make it easier to control her Show nested quote +Back to Dehaka: We were arguing that he was dissatisfied with the [quality of] essence collected and then all of a sudden he was satisfied despite it being the same [quality of] essence (still terran) that was collected. The bracketed is my insertion based upon both of us previously agreeing to him talking about quality, not quantity of essence. Dehaka is never satisfied i only remember him saying things like "i collect much essence from following" not "damn im collecting some primo essence" Show nested quote +As I specifically said, all of the Protoss hid in the temple. The planet was completely covered with Zerg.
You have literally zero evidence to support the claim that Kerrigan would've been de-infested by the temple.
the temples not big enough to fit every Protoss in existance, and it was never shown that protoss retreated its rediculous for you to go against whats said in lore, they said in BW taht the temple would kill the Zerg it was enver even hinted that they had to evacuate Shakuras first also heres some evidence, the temple is literally a bigger version of the artifact made by the same people and works in the same way Show nested quote +And why am I almost always restricted to 2 bases, why are there no larvae injects, why is there an annoying CD on creep tumors? Why is it so simplified, where is the sense of scale? I often found myself frustrated that even with my poss-poor APM I was never mechanically challenged to do better. campaign isnt about challenging you mechanically if it was then itd be too easy for good players and impossible for the less good its about strategy more then skill
The broodmothers were made stronger by increasing their intellect to give them vision and foresight. There are like 3 missions surrounding this specific topic and a plethora of conversations supporting it. Furthermore you are now arguing that it is possible for a zerg to revolt against the leader of the Swarm - which was exactly my point. I would also like to note that I at no point claimed Abathur would revolt by controlling other Zerg, but simple serving another master and splice protoss and zerg to pursue perfection. Nice strawman though. When he said he needed an overriding mind to be Zerg he meant it in the sense of being part of the Swarm which is part of his definition of being zerg.
If Kerrigan was stronger than the overmind she would have zero reason to partner up with the protoss/terrans to kill it off. If you want to retcon that into another lie of hers you are going to have to reexplain most of SC/BW - good luck! The entire dissatisfaction with HotS and WoL is that such retcon is needed, so you will achieve little in convincing anyone that it makes the script of SC2 any better... That she is stronger than the Overmind is NOT canonical in SC/BW.
Regarding Dehaka, I urge you to replay the campaign and actually listen to his nonsense, you do not recall it correctly - I have backed up my claim with an (of me) independent source, you have so far said: I recall it differently. Great argument right there!
The two of us are never going to agree and I have just picked up the family, so I'll leave it here. good wish you a good weekend and would like to thank you for the discussion. Even though an agreement was not reached I found it fruitful nonetheless.
|
On March 22 2013 03:15 Shellshock1122 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 03:11 Assirra wrote:On March 22 2013 03:05 McBengt wrote:On March 22 2013 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 02:42 Shellshock1122 wrote:On March 22 2013 01:18 McBengt wrote:On March 22 2013 01:03 Hubble wrote:On March 21 2013 21:56 Warpish wrote:
It's ridiculous. The dialogs are terrible and the Dominion's tactical decisions make no sense at all (one Gorgon at a time, seriously!). Wasn't there an explanation for that? Like something around "they are to big"? This mission seems to resemble something like the Battle of Thermopylae. The dominion has brute military force but not enough space to use it. And how I understand it, the area the mission is played in is ment to be some kind of small canyon. It's a battlecruiser. Logic tells me it can fly over the canyon and shoot down. They are capable of orbital bombardment but in order to attack the zerg they have to fly through the canyon If they had replaced a giant battlecruiser with a squadron of dropships dropping bombs with each pack getting bigger and bigger--then that would have been awesome. Super battlecruiser just makes me wonder why there weren't defending mengst in the last mission... Really, who the hell made Warfield a general in the first place? He's a complete tool, I could come up with a better strategy on the spot. "Hey general, they shot down this Gorgon too, just like the last two." "Send another!" "But sir, shouldn't we try-" "But nothing son! Send the damned ship, I've got a good feeling about this one!" And this is the guy who led the invasion of Char. I was half expecting Kerrigan to ask him what the fuck he was doing in the cinematic. That however is a gameplay error rather then a story error. They designed this whole creep tumor/scourge system/mission and that was just an excuse to it. Its quite obvious tbh that the story is weaved around the gameplay rather then otherwise for whole Starcraft 2. I still thought it was really weird that you were able to go back and take char from the dominion when that was like the force that was able to defeat the queen of blades with full zerg tech. I mean you retake it with weakened kerrigan and then lings and aberrations. Was the Dominion force just that undermanned and depleted after the events of WoL? Did everyone just leave after taking Char and just leave a small force there? I feel like it should have taken a way stronger zerg army to reclaim the planet
you had all the forces on Char after you take down Zagara so you had a very large army
The broodmothers were made stronger by increasing their intellect to give them vision and foresight. There are like 3 missions surrounding this specific topic and a plethora of conversations supporting it. Furthermore you are now arguing that it is possible for a zerg to revolt against the leader of the Swarm - which was exactly my point. I would also like to note that I at no point claimed Abathur would revolt by controlling other Zerg, but simple serving another master and splice protoss and zerg to pursue perfection. Nice strawman though. When he said he needed an overriding mind to be Zerg he meant it in the sense of being part of the Swarm which is part of his definition of being zerg.
he said without Kerrigan he was a beast, beasts are not sentient thinking creatures they are beats Abathur does not have the physical ability to rebel from the Queen of blades, he was literally made for that to be impossible
it is only slightly possible for the Broodmothers because Kerrigan forced Abathur (against his wishs) to make them that way
why would Abathur (who hates the thought of people rebelling against the greatest leader) make it so he was possible to rebel?
If Kerrigan was stronger than the overmind she would have zero reason to partner up with the protoss/terrans to kill it off. If you want to retcon that into another lie of hers you are going to have to reexplain most of SC/BW - good luck! The entire dissatisfaction with HotS and WoL is that such retcon is needed, so you will achieve little in convincing anyone that it makes the script of SC2 any better... That she is stronger than the Overmind is NOT canonical in SC/BW.
not like the Overmind is being protected by the entire UED fleet or anything... not like Kerrigan needs the Dark Templar energy to kill the overmind or anything... not like she needed help destroying the psi dirupter or anything...
Regarding Dehaka, I urge you to replay the campaign and actually listen to his nonsense, you do not recall it correctly - I have backed up my claim with an (of me) independent source, you have so far said: I recall it differently. Great argument right there!
The two of us are never going to agree and I have just picked up the family, so I'll leave it here. good wish you a good weekend and would like to thank you for the discussion. Even though an agreement was not reached I found it fruitful nonetheless.
if you can offer the specific missions where he states that he hates Terran essence then i will go straight to it
|
On March 22 2013 02:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 02:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:
the temples not big enough to fit every Protoss in existance, and it was never shown that protoss retreated
its rediculous for you to go against whats said in lore, they said in BW taht the temple would kill the Zerg it was enver even hinted that they had to evacuate Shakuras first
also heres some evidence, the temple is literally a bigger version of the artifact made by the same people and works in the same way
That's not evidence. that's you making shit up. In the mission, Zeratul explicitly says for everyone to retreat into the temple. It even shows a Scout retreating to the temple in the damn cinematic. The Protoss were almost completely wiped out by the Zerg in Episode III. The temple is large, and not all Protoss are on Shakuras. It's blatantly evident that they retreated to the temple. Um... Shakuras has several thousand years of civilization on top of it from a race of beings known as the dark templar. I refuse to believe that after they migrated to Shakuras that they kind of just hung out not reproducing and making cities at their leisure. And no, I refuse to believe an advanced race that has had a shit tonne of time to populate a planet would be so small in number that they would fit in one random temple. I also don't understand why raynor collecting artifacts is somehow more cheesy than zeratul collecting crystals. I also find it dishonest of you to think a xelnaga artifact killing bunches of zerg on char (not all) is more cheesy than a planet wide nuke on Shakuras from a xel naga temple. Both are equal to each other. And if the protoss missions spanned 30 missions you would have hated the temple nuke as well. The fact of the matter is we were spared the cheesy plots of BW and SC1 because we had such little content from it. There were less than 10 protoss missions in BW, half of it was zeratul gathering people, 2-3 of it was for collecting artifacts, and then a final mission. The reason you did not get annoyed is because there wasn't much story there.
1) Dark Templar only lived on Shakuras for about 500 years before BW.
2) There weren't a ton of Dark Templar that were exiled.
3) Not all Dark Templar settled on Shakuras.
4) Protoss reproduce far more slowly than humans.
5) The Dark Templar struggled to adapt to Shakuras, since they naturally require sunlight, which leads us to the logical conclusion that population growth was stunted.
6) Massive amounts of Protoss were killed (at least 70% of the population) during the invasion of Aiur, so they didn't add a huge amount to the existing population of Shakuras.
7) It's entirely plausible (and almost implausible to think otherwise) that the Shakuras population took heavy losses due to the Zerg invasion.
Raynor's is far worse because 1) it takes up a massive chunk of the WoL campaign (taking all of two missions in BW) and 2) he just goes about randomly slaughtering Protoss to take their holy relics. The reason that the Artifact is far more cheesy is because it just happens to be a random artifact that can do exactly what they need it to do; kill Zerg (and ONLY Zerg), while at the same time de-infesting the one particular individual they want to de-infest, but then in HotS, it can act as some kind of psionic suppressor to harm Kerrigan that reacts to an obviously Terran "kill switch"-type mechanism. The temple is fairly lame because it's like, "Hey, let's just use this to blow up everything!", but the difference is that 1) it was a minor plot point in the least-liked campaign of SC1 and 2) it did a very simple thing; kill everything. The artifact is the central plot device of the entire WoL campaign, and it just so happens that it does the exact, incredibly specific thing that Raynor needs.
|
On March 22 2013 03:30 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 03:15 Shellshock1122 wrote:On March 22 2013 03:11 Assirra wrote:On March 22 2013 03:05 McBengt wrote:On March 22 2013 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 02:42 Shellshock1122 wrote:On March 22 2013 01:18 McBengt wrote:On March 22 2013 01:03 Hubble wrote:On March 21 2013 21:56 Warpish wrote:
It's ridiculous. The dialogs are terrible and the Dominion's tactical decisions make no sense at all (one Gorgon at a time, seriously!). Wasn't there an explanation for that? Like something around "they are to big"? This mission seems to resemble something like the Battle of Thermopylae. The dominion has brute military force but not enough space to use it. And how I understand it, the area the mission is played in is ment to be some kind of small canyon. It's a battlecruiser. Logic tells me it can fly over the canyon and shoot down. They are capable of orbital bombardment but in order to attack the zerg they have to fly through the canyon If they had replaced a giant battlecruiser with a squadron of dropships dropping bombs with each pack getting bigger and bigger--then that would have been awesome. Super battlecruiser just makes me wonder why there weren't defending mengst in the last mission... Really, who the hell made Warfield a general in the first place? He's a complete tool, I could come up with a better strategy on the spot. "Hey general, they shot down this Gorgon too, just like the last two." "Send another!" "But sir, shouldn't we try-" "But nothing son! Send the damned ship, I've got a good feeling about this one!" And this is the guy who led the invasion of Char. I was half expecting Kerrigan to ask him what the fuck he was doing in the cinematic. That however is a gameplay error rather then a story error. They designed this whole creep tumor/scourge system/mission and that was just an excuse to it. Its quite obvious tbh that the story is weaved around the gameplay rather then otherwise for whole Starcraft 2. I still thought it was really weird that you were able to go back and take char from the dominion when that was like the force that was able to defeat the queen of blades with full zerg tech. I mean you retake it with weakened kerrigan and then lings and aberrations. Was the Dominion force just that undermanned and depleted after the events of WoL? Did everyone just leave after taking Char and just leave a small force there? I feel like it should have taken a way stronger zerg army to reclaim the planet you had all the forces on Char after you take down Zagara so you had a very large army Show nested quote +The broodmothers were made stronger by increasing their intellect to give them vision and foresight. There are like 3 missions surrounding this specific topic and a plethora of conversations supporting it. Furthermore you are now arguing that it is possible for a zerg to revolt against the leader of the Swarm - which was exactly my point. I would also like to note that I at no point claimed Abathur would revolt by controlling other Zerg, but simple serving another master and splice protoss and zerg to pursue perfection. Nice strawman though. When he said he needed an overriding mind to be Zerg he meant it in the sense of being part of the Swarm which is part of his definition of being zerg. he said without Kerrigan he was a beast, beasts are not sentient thinking creatures they are beats Abathur does not have the physical ability to rebel from the Queen of blades, he was literally made for that to be impossible it is only slightly possible for the Broodmothers because Kerrigan forced Abathur (against his wishs) to make them that way why would Abathur (who hates the thought of people rebelling against the greatest leader) make it so he was possible to rebel? Show nested quote +If Kerrigan was stronger than the overmind she would have zero reason to partner up with the protoss/terrans to kill it off. If you want to retcon that into another lie of hers you are going to have to reexplain most of SC/BW - good luck! The entire dissatisfaction with HotS and WoL is that such retcon is needed, so you will achieve little in convincing anyone that it makes the script of SC2 any better... That she is stronger than the Overmind is NOT canonical in SC/BW. not like the Overmind is being protected by the entire UED fleet or anything... not like Kerrigan needs the Dark Templar energy to kill the overmind or anything... not like she needed help destroying the psi dirupter or anything... Show nested quote +Regarding Dehaka, I urge you to replay the campaign and actually listen to his nonsense, you do not recall it correctly - I have backed up my claim with an (of me) independent source, you have so far said: I recall it differently. Great argument right there!
The two of us are never going to agree and I have just picked up the family, so I'll leave it here. good wish you a good weekend and would like to thank you for the discussion. Even though an agreement was not reached I found it fruitful nonetheless. if you can offer the specific missions where he states that he hates Terran essence then i will go straight to it
Abathur considers Dehaka a beast - Dehaka is obviously not only sentinent but also able to act on his own accord (which is an entirely different can of worms conflicting with the SC/BW lore which I shall refrain from opening any further).
Abathur had NOTHING to do with his own creation, nor are there any signs that he has experimented on himself - stop making stuff up.
I will admit that she needed the dark templar energy to kill the Overmind, but why would she even need to kill the Overmind that urgently if she was not in risk of losing control to it?
The mission was one of the first missions of killing Terrans after Zerus. Sadly I do not have a save before the mission, nor can you access the conversations via the master archive.
|
Abathur considers Dehaka a beast - Dehaka is obviously not only sentinent but also able to act on his own accord (which is an entirely different can of worms conflicting with the SC/BW lore which I shall refrain from opening any further).
i dont remember Abathur ever calling Dehaka a beast
Abathur had NOTHING to do with his own creation, nor are there any signs that he has experimented on himself - stop making stuff up.
exactly, you prove my point
the Overmind made Abathur, the overmind would make abathur unable to ever oppose him (like he did with 100% of his creations) so unless Abathur modified himself later hes unable to betray Kerrigan
I will admit that she needed the dark templar energy to kill the Overmind, but why would she even need to kill the Overmind that urgently if she was not in risk of losing control to it?
why kill your enemies when you can leave them alive? did you seriously jsut ask that?
the fledgling Overmind controlled part of the swarm she wanted the entire swarm so killing the Overmind was neccesary
imo the overmind looks like it was born, it wasnt in the cocoon it was sentient and taking control of the swarm (hence why the UED took control of it and not random cerebrates) so evidently the Overmind couldnt control her
|
On March 22 2013 03:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 02:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 02:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:
the temples not big enough to fit every Protoss in existance, and it was never shown that protoss retreated
its rediculous for you to go against whats said in lore, they said in BW taht the temple would kill the Zerg it was enver even hinted that they had to evacuate Shakuras first
also heres some evidence, the temple is literally a bigger version of the artifact made by the same people and works in the same way
That's not evidence. that's you making shit up. In the mission, Zeratul explicitly says for everyone to retreat into the temple. It even shows a Scout retreating to the temple in the damn cinematic. The Protoss were almost completely wiped out by the Zerg in Episode III. The temple is large, and not all Protoss are on Shakuras. It's blatantly evident that they retreated to the temple. Um... Shakuras has several thousand years of civilization on top of it from a race of beings known as the dark templar. I refuse to believe that after they migrated to Shakuras that they kind of just hung out not reproducing and making cities at their leisure. And no, I refuse to believe an advanced race that has had a shit tonne of time to populate a planet would be so small in number that they would fit in one random temple. I also don't understand why raynor collecting artifacts is somehow more cheesy than zeratul collecting crystals. I also find it dishonest of you to think a xelnaga artifact killing bunches of zerg on char (not all) is more cheesy than a planet wide nuke on Shakuras from a xel naga temple. Both are equal to each other. And if the protoss missions spanned 30 missions you would have hated the temple nuke as well. The fact of the matter is we were spared the cheesy plots of BW and SC1 because we had such little content from it. There were less than 10 protoss missions in BW, half of it was zeratul gathering people, 2-3 of it was for collecting artifacts, and then a final mission. The reason you did not get annoyed is because there wasn't much story there. 1) Dark Templar only lived on Shakuras for about 500 years before BW. 2) There weren't a ton of Dark Templar that were exiled. 3) Not all Dark Templar settled on Shakuras. 4) Protoss reproduce far more slowly than humans. 5) The Dark Templar struggled to adapt to Shakuras, since they naturally require sunlight, which leads us to the logical conclusion that population growth was stunted. 6) Massive amounts of Protoss were killed (at least 70% of the population) during the invasion of Aiur, so they didn't add a huge amount to the existing population of Shakuras. 7) It's entirely plausible (and almost implausible to think otherwise) that the Shakuras population took heavy losses due to the Zerg invasion. Raynor's is far worse because 1) it takes up a massive chunk of the WoL campaign (taking all of two missions in BW) and 2) he just goes about randomly slaughtering Protoss to take their holy relics. The reason that the Artifact is far more cheesy is because it just happens to be a random artifact that can do exactly what they need it to do; kill Zerg (and ONLY Zerg), while at the same time de-infesting the one particular individual they want to de-infest, but then in HotS, it can act as some kind of psionic suppressor to harm Kerrigan that reacts to an obviously Terran "kill switch"-type mechanism. The temple is fairly lame because it's like, "Hey, let's just use this to blow up everything!", but the difference is that 1) it was a minor plot point in the least-liked campaign of SC1 and 2) it did a very simple thing; kill everything. The artifact is the central plot device of the entire WoL campaign, and it just so happens that it does the exact, incredibly specific thing that Raynor needs.
In less the past 50 years the human race increased its population by 4billion.
Assuming humans reproduce 400% faster than protoss that would simply about 2billion new protoss members every 100 years
about 10 billion in 500 years.
Lets say Humans reproduce 800% faster than protoss?
5billion within 500 years
What about 1600% faster than protoss?
2.5 billion in 500 years.
3200% faster.
1.75 billion protoss in 500 years.
Do you really think that they'd have a random building that fits more than a billion people and not have it be part of a city already?
And yes, as I said in my post, the only reason you don't give it flak is because it takes up two missions instead of 30. And that's the case for most BW plot points. Jim's rebellion? 10ish missions. Not 30ish that it is in WoL.
Since you kept jumping away from plot points and kept sticking to the action you were allowed time to process the information you got. Not so with WoL or HotS.
But trying to say that a planet wide nuke to conveniently kill zerg was found on some random planet made by the xelnaga in case... oh wait--zerg wasn't made yet. Oh well, I guess... what ever.
They're both silly. You only having to endure 2 missions of it in BW and having to endure 30 missions of it in WoL does not make it less silly. It just means you were allowed to ignore it while you aren't allowed to ignore it in WoL.
Do you know what makes the Shakuras missions interesting? Because it wasn't bogged down by the details. How many protoss were in shakuras? Doesn't matter, save who we can. Will the nuke work? Doesn't matter, we don't have a choice. Can we trust Kerrigan? She's killing zerg so its good enough for now. Etc....
They had a fucking queen man, how can they not have an empire but have a queen?
But its possible to think "most are killed by the zerg and so they fit in a temple" as well as its possible to think "it only kills zerg" it's also possible to think "it kills everything but killing most of my people is a worthy sacrifice." etc... The abstraction allows us to imagine the best case scenario that makes us happy with its conclusion. WoL does not allow our imagination to do that. The artifacts have a very specific task it does that you know to the letter. You're building a literal silver bullet. So when it finally blows, you kind of were forced into only imagining what WoL tells you to imagine. THAT is what makes it silly, not that artifacts are somehow more silly than magic crystals.
|
On March 22 2013 04:02 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +Abathur considers Dehaka a beast - Dehaka is obviously not only sentinent but also able to act on his own accord (which is an entirely different can of worms conflicting with the SC/BW lore which I shall refrain from opening any further). i dont remember Abathur ever calling Dehaka a beast Show nested quote +Abathur had NOTHING to do with his own creation, nor are there any signs that he has experimented on himself - stop making stuff up. exactly, you prove my point the Overmind made Abathur, the overmind would make abathur unable to ever oppose him (like he did with 100% of his creations) so unless Abathur modified himself later hes unable to betray Kerrigan Show nested quote +I will admit that she needed the dark templar energy to kill the Overmind, but why would she even need to kill the Overmind that urgently if she was not in risk of losing control to it? why kill your enemies when you can leave them alive? did you seriously jsut ask that? the fledgling Overmind controlled part of the swarm she wanted the entire swarm so killing the Overmind was neccesary imo the overmind looks like it was born, it wasnt in the cocoon it was sentient and taking control of the swarm (hence why the UED took control of it and not random cerebrates) so evidently the Overmind couldnt control her
The overmind could control her... it was why she was so desperate to kill it. If we are to believe what she says in game. If we assume she lied in BW, then so be it, but she specifically said she didn't want to be controlled again.
|
On March 22 2013 04:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 03:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 22 2013 02:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 02:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:
the temples not big enough to fit every Protoss in existance, and it was never shown that protoss retreated
its rediculous for you to go against whats said in lore, they said in BW taht the temple would kill the Zerg it was enver even hinted that they had to evacuate Shakuras first
also heres some evidence, the temple is literally a bigger version of the artifact made by the same people and works in the same way
That's not evidence. that's you making shit up. In the mission, Zeratul explicitly says for everyone to retreat into the temple. It even shows a Scout retreating to the temple in the damn cinematic. The Protoss were almost completely wiped out by the Zerg in Episode III. The temple is large, and not all Protoss are on Shakuras. It's blatantly evident that they retreated to the temple. Um... Shakuras has several thousand years of civilization on top of it from a race of beings known as the dark templar. I refuse to believe that after they migrated to Shakuras that they kind of just hung out not reproducing and making cities at their leisure. And no, I refuse to believe an advanced race that has had a shit tonne of time to populate a planet would be so small in number that they would fit in one random temple. I also don't understand why raynor collecting artifacts is somehow more cheesy than zeratul collecting crystals. I also find it dishonest of you to think a xelnaga artifact killing bunches of zerg on char (not all) is more cheesy than a planet wide nuke on Shakuras from a xel naga temple. Both are equal to each other. And if the protoss missions spanned 30 missions you would have hated the temple nuke as well. The fact of the matter is we were spared the cheesy plots of BW and SC1 because we had such little content from it. There were less than 10 protoss missions in BW, half of it was zeratul gathering people, 2-3 of it was for collecting artifacts, and then a final mission. The reason you did not get annoyed is because there wasn't much story there. 1) Dark Templar only lived on Shakuras for about 500 years before BW. 2) There weren't a ton of Dark Templar that were exiled. 3) Not all Dark Templar settled on Shakuras. 4) Protoss reproduce far more slowly than humans. 5) The Dark Templar struggled to adapt to Shakuras, since they naturally require sunlight, which leads us to the logical conclusion that population growth was stunted. 6) Massive amounts of Protoss were killed (at least 70% of the population) during the invasion of Aiur, so they didn't add a huge amount to the existing population of Shakuras. 7) It's entirely plausible (and almost implausible to think otherwise) that the Shakuras population took heavy losses due to the Zerg invasion. Raynor's is far worse because 1) it takes up a massive chunk of the WoL campaign (taking all of two missions in BW) and 2) he just goes about randomly slaughtering Protoss to take their holy relics. The reason that the Artifact is far more cheesy is because it just happens to be a random artifact that can do exactly what they need it to do; kill Zerg (and ONLY Zerg), while at the same time de-infesting the one particular individual they want to de-infest, but then in HotS, it can act as some kind of psionic suppressor to harm Kerrigan that reacts to an obviously Terran "kill switch"-type mechanism. The temple is fairly lame because it's like, "Hey, let's just use this to blow up everything!", but the difference is that 1) it was a minor plot point in the least-liked campaign of SC1 and 2) it did a very simple thing; kill everything. The artifact is the central plot device of the entire WoL campaign, and it just so happens that it does the exact, incredibly specific thing that Raynor needs. In less the past 50 years the human race increased its population by 4billion. Assuming humans reproduce 400% faster than protoss that would simply about 2billion new protoss members every 100 years about 10 billion in 500 years. Lets say Humans reproduce 800% faster than protoss? 5billion within 500 years What about 1600% faster than protoss? 2.5 billion in 500 years. 3200% faster. 1.75 billion protoss in 500 years. Do you really think that they'd have a random building that fits more than a billion people and not have it be part of a city already? And yes, as I said in my post, the only reason you don't give it flak is because it takes up two missions instead of 30. And that's the case for most BW plot points. Jim's rebellion? 10ish missions. Not 30ish that it is in WoL. Since you kept jumping away from plot points and kept sticking to the action you were allowed time to process the information you got. Not so with WoL or HotS. But trying to say that a planet wide nuke to conveniently kill zerg was found on some random planet made by the xelnaga in case... oh wait--zerg wasn't made yet. Oh well, I guess... what ever. They're both silly. You only having to endure 2 missions of it in BW and having to endure 30 missions of it in WoL does not make it less silly. It just means you were allowed to ignore it while you aren't allowed to ignore it in WoL. Do you know what makes the Shakuras missions interesting? Because it wasn't bogged down by the details. How many protoss were in shakuras? Doesn't matter, save who we can. Will the nuke work? Doesn't matter, we don't have a choice. Can we trust Kerrigan? She's killing zerg so its good enough for now. Etc.... They had a fucking queen man, how can they not have an empire but have a queen? But its possible to think "most are killed by the zerg and so they fit in a temple" as well as its possible to think "it only kills zerg" it's also possible to think "it kills everything but killing most of my people is a worthy sacrifice." etc... The abstraction allows us to imagine the best case scenario that makes us happy with its conclusion. WoL does not allow our imagination to do that. The artifacts have a very specific task it does that you know to the letter. You're building a literal silver bullet. So when it finally blows, you kind of were forced into only imagining what WoL tells you to imagine. THAT is what makes it silly, not that artifacts are somehow more silly than magic crystals.
Dunno what to tell you. I agree with everything you said and it was kind of my overall point. The temple is cheesy, sure, but it doesn't break anyone's suspension of disbelief because it isn't so convoluted.
|
On March 22 2013 03:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 02:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 02:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:
the temples not big enough to fit every Protoss in existance, and it was never shown that protoss retreated
its rediculous for you to go against whats said in lore, they said in BW taht the temple would kill the Zerg it was enver even hinted that they had to evacuate Shakuras first
also heres some evidence, the temple is literally a bigger version of the artifact made by the same people and works in the same way
That's not evidence. that's you making shit up. In the mission, Zeratul explicitly says for everyone to retreat into the temple. It even shows a Scout retreating to the temple in the damn cinematic. The Protoss were almost completely wiped out by the Zerg in Episode III. The temple is large, and not all Protoss are on Shakuras. It's blatantly evident that they retreated to the temple. Um... Shakuras has several thousand years of civilization on top of it from a race of beings known as the dark templar. I refuse to believe that after they migrated to Shakuras that they kind of just hung out not reproducing and making cities at their leisure. And no, I refuse to believe an advanced race that has had a shit tonne of time to populate a planet would be so small in number that they would fit in one random temple. I also don't understand why raynor collecting artifacts is somehow more cheesy than zeratul collecting crystals. I also find it dishonest of you to think a xelnaga artifact killing bunches of zerg on char (not all) is more cheesy than a planet wide nuke on Shakuras from a xel naga temple. Both are equal to each other. And if the protoss missions spanned 30 missions you would have hated the temple nuke as well. The fact of the matter is we were spared the cheesy plots of BW and SC1 because we had such little content from it. There were less than 10 protoss missions in BW, half of it was zeratul gathering people, 2-3 of it was for collecting artifacts, and then a final mission. The reason you did not get annoyed is because there wasn't much story there. 1) Dark Templar only lived on Shakuras for about 500 years before BW. 2) There weren't a ton of Dark Templar that were exiled. 3) Not all Dark Templar settled on Shakuras. 4) Protoss reproduce far more slowly than humans. 5) The Dark Templar struggled to adapt to Shakuras, since they naturally require sunlight, which leads us to the logical conclusion that population growth was stunted. 6) Massive amounts of Protoss were killed (at least 70% of the population) during the invasion of Aiur, so they didn't add a huge amount to the existing population of Shakuras. 7) It's entirely plausible (and almost implausible to think otherwise) that the Shakuras population took heavy losses due to the Zerg invasion. Raynor's is far worse because 1) it takes up a massive chunk of the WoL campaign (taking all of two missions in BW) and 2) he just goes about randomly slaughtering Protoss to take their holy relics. The reason that the Artifact is far more cheesy is because it just happens to be a random artifact that can do exactly what they need it to do; kill Zerg (and ONLY Zerg), while at the same time de-infesting the one particular individual they want to de-infest, but then in HotS, it can act as some kind of psionic suppressor to harm Kerrigan that reacts to an obviously Terran "kill switch"-type mechanism. The temple is fairly lame because it's like, "Hey, let's just use this to blow up everything!", but the difference is that 1) it was a minor plot point in the least-liked campaign of SC1 and 2) it did a very simple thing; kill everything. The artifact is the central plot device of the entire WoL campaign, and it just so happens that it does the exact, incredibly specific thing that Raynor needs.
Starcraft Manual
. Over the course of only a few hundred years, the Protoss conquered hundreds of worlds within their corner of the galaxy, and spread the fruits of their great civilization to many of the more advanced races that they encountered. All in all, the Protoss inadvertently succeeded in reclaiming an eighth of the worlds once presided over by the Xel’Naga.
This feat requires a population in billions, and the protoss were heavily centered/invested on Aiur, so a good % of their population would've resided there, as sc2wikia confirms:
Aiur was populated by billions of protoss before its fall.[6]
Sc2wikia also confirms your estimates on the protoss losses on Aiur:
It was a pyrrhic victory at best. 70% of the population was dead. The planet was thoroughly infested[7] and much if the landscape ruined.[8]
30% of a single billion is obviously 300 millions protoss, and given there's a plural, there would be at least 600 millions protoss in that temple..... the losses suffered while fighting both zerg and a civil war on shakuras are not mentioned, they probably range between 5-70%, as it's impossible that the fighting on shakuras was harsher than the one of Aiur (it would have been mentioned, and it would be stupid to jump from the frying pan into the fire...)
so with the most implausible estimates, there would be at least 180 millions protoss stuffed into a small temple, without taking the nerazim into consideration
About the dark templar numbers, stuff gets trickier, the only information we have is that of the protoss tribes Ara,Akilae,Shelak,Sargas, Auriga and Furinax (the major ones)
the Nerazim drew heavily on Sargas, although coming from many others as well(probably weren't the majority in Sargas tho) so.... perhaps a 5% of the population?
|
On March 22 2013 04:02 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +Abathur considers Dehaka a beast - Dehaka is obviously not only sentinent but also able to act on his own accord (which is an entirely different can of worms conflicting with the SC/BW lore which I shall refrain from opening any further). i dont remember Abathur ever calling Dehaka a beast Show nested quote +Abathur had NOTHING to do with his own creation, nor are there any signs that he has experimented on himself - stop making stuff up. exactly, you prove my point the Overmind made Abathur, the overmind would make abathur unable to ever oppose him (like he did with 100% of his creations) so unless Abathur modified himself later hes unable to betray Kerrigan Show nested quote +I will admit that she needed the dark templar energy to kill the Overmind, but why would she even need to kill the Overmind that urgently if she was not in risk of losing control to it? why kill your enemies when you can leave them alive? did you seriously jsut ask that? the fledgling Overmind controlled part of the swarm she wanted the entire swarm so killing the Overmind was neccesary imo the overmind looks like it was born, it wasnt in the cocoon it was sentient and taking control of the swarm (hence why the UED took control of it and not random cerebrates) so evidently the Overmind couldnt control her
Go to YouTube and search "chat with Abathur 10". He thinks of zerg without overriding will as beasts. We can infer that he see thus sees all primal as beasts.
I did not prove your point. I reject the notion that because someone was unable to revolt against the overmind that zerg will also be unable to revolt against other leaders of the Swarm - I made that quite clear earlier. I do not think Kerrigan to have the same power as the Overmind when it comes to controlling as I also argued previously.
The 2.nd Overmind was not yet fully developed and thus not yet able to control Kerrigan. This is what she states herself and ties very well into the notion of getting the 2.nd overmind killed ASAP.
Sadly Dehakas conversations are not up yet, but in time.
|
Go to YouTube and search "chat with Abathur 10". He thinks of zerg without overriding will as beasts. We can infer that he see thus sees all primal as beasts.
in Abathurs eyes though the Primal Zerg are not Zerg they are Primal Zerg
just like how Kerrigan is not the Queen of Blades, she is Kerrigan the Queen of Blades was another entity with minor Terran influence and the Primal Queen of Blades was also not the Queen of Blades
if he considered the Primal Zerg Zerg he wouldnt care as much that they were copying from the swarm, but he does and wants every one of them destroyed because they are not Zerg they are Primal Zerg and so enemies that must be destroyed (and extra bad enemies since they steal from swarm)
so he does not see Dehaka as a beast, he sees him as a Primal Zerg
I did not prove your point. I reject the notion that because someone was unable to revolt against the overmind that zerg will also be unable to revolt against other leaders of the Swarm - I made that quite clear earlier. I do not think Kerrigan to have the same power as the Overmind when it comes to controlling as I also argued previously.
but you offer no evidence, perhaps eary in BW she was inferior but by the end of BW she was as strong, by WoL she was stronger and by the end of HoTS she undoubtably eclipses him
The 2.nd Overmind was not yet fully developed and thus not yet able to control Kerrigan. This is what she states herself and ties very well into the notion of getting the 2.nd overmind killed ASAP.
she states it when hte Overmind was still dormant in a cocoon but it had definently awakened from that cocoon by the end of the Terran campaign and started controlling the swarm, yet Kerrigan remains free all through the Zerg campaign
|
On March 22 2013 03:06 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 03:05 McBengt wrote:On March 22 2013 02:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 02:42 Shellshock1122 wrote:On March 22 2013 01:18 McBengt wrote:On March 22 2013 01:03 Hubble wrote:On March 21 2013 21:56 Warpish wrote:
It's ridiculous. The dialogs are terrible and the Dominion's tactical decisions make no sense at all (one Gorgon at a time, seriously!). Wasn't there an explanation for that? Like something around "they are to big"? This mission seems to resemble something like the Battle of Thermopylae. The dominion has brute military force but not enough space to use it. And how I understand it, the area the mission is played in is ment to be some kind of small canyon. It's a battlecruiser. Logic tells me it can fly over the canyon and shoot down. They are capable of orbital bombardment but in order to attack the zerg they have to fly through the canyon If they had replaced a giant battlecruiser with a squadron of dropships dropping bombs with each pack getting bigger and bigger--then that would have been awesome. Super battlecruiser just makes me wonder why there weren't defending mengst in the last mission... Really, who the hell made Warfield a general in the first place? He's a complete tool, I could come up with a better strategy on the spot. "Hey general, they shot down this Gorgon too, just like the last two." "Send another!" "But sir, shouldn't we try-" "But nothing son! Send the damned ship, I've got a good feeling about this one!" And this is the guy who led the invasion of Char. I was half expecting Kerrigan to ask him what the fuck he was doing in the cinematic. this is the guy who launched a head on assault on Char which got butchered by the Zergs defenses
What do you know, an aerial insertion into a massive concentration of enemy forces is actually not a very good idea.
|
It's actually quite difficult to express how terrible the story was. Everything about it was horrible. The unbelievable 'love story', the characters I couldn't care less about, Kerrigan's inconsistency as a character, the anthropomorphism of the zerg, the bizarre section of the game about Narud, the apparent pointlessness of WoL and deinfesting Kerrigan, the cringeworthy one liner dialogue, the edited version of the leaked ending (strangely deciding to leave in the 'insurance policy' line despite the fact it makes no sense in the new ending); the whole thing was full to the brim of contrivances.
One of the real shames for me was that Kerrigan was a character with such potential yet the writing staff have been content to write her in as some lovesick puppy out for revenge (because the motivation for everything in popular media has to be focused on revenge).
I really enjoyed the gameplay, though (apart from that Star Battles-esque mission).
|
On March 22 2013 04:58 Skirmjan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 03:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 22 2013 02:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 02:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:
the temples not big enough to fit every Protoss in existance, and it was never shown that protoss retreated
its rediculous for you to go against whats said in lore, they said in BW taht the temple would kill the Zerg it was enver even hinted that they had to evacuate Shakuras first
also heres some evidence, the temple is literally a bigger version of the artifact made by the same people and works in the same way
That's not evidence. that's you making shit up. In the mission, Zeratul explicitly says for everyone to retreat into the temple. It even shows a Scout retreating to the temple in the damn cinematic. The Protoss were almost completely wiped out by the Zerg in Episode III. The temple is large, and not all Protoss are on Shakuras. It's blatantly evident that they retreated to the temple. Um... Shakuras has several thousand years of civilization on top of it from a race of beings known as the dark templar. I refuse to believe that after they migrated to Shakuras that they kind of just hung out not reproducing and making cities at their leisure. And no, I refuse to believe an advanced race that has had a shit tonne of time to populate a planet would be so small in number that they would fit in one random temple. I also don't understand why raynor collecting artifacts is somehow more cheesy than zeratul collecting crystals. I also find it dishonest of you to think a xelnaga artifact killing bunches of zerg on char (not all) is more cheesy than a planet wide nuke on Shakuras from a xel naga temple. Both are equal to each other. And if the protoss missions spanned 30 missions you would have hated the temple nuke as well. The fact of the matter is we were spared the cheesy plots of BW and SC1 because we had such little content from it. There were less than 10 protoss missions in BW, half of it was zeratul gathering people, 2-3 of it was for collecting artifacts, and then a final mission. The reason you did not get annoyed is because there wasn't much story there. 1) Dark Templar only lived on Shakuras for about 500 years before BW. 2) There weren't a ton of Dark Templar that were exiled. 3) Not all Dark Templar settled on Shakuras. 4) Protoss reproduce far more slowly than humans. 5) The Dark Templar struggled to adapt to Shakuras, since they naturally require sunlight, which leads us to the logical conclusion that population growth was stunted. 6) Massive amounts of Protoss were killed (at least 70% of the population) during the invasion of Aiur, so they didn't add a huge amount to the existing population of Shakuras. 7) It's entirely plausible (and almost implausible to think otherwise) that the Shakuras population took heavy losses due to the Zerg invasion. Raynor's is far worse because 1) it takes up a massive chunk of the WoL campaign (taking all of two missions in BW) and 2) he just goes about randomly slaughtering Protoss to take their holy relics. The reason that the Artifact is far more cheesy is because it just happens to be a random artifact that can do exactly what they need it to do; kill Zerg (and ONLY Zerg), while at the same time de-infesting the one particular individual they want to de-infest, but then in HotS, it can act as some kind of psionic suppressor to harm Kerrigan that reacts to an obviously Terran "kill switch"-type mechanism. The temple is fairly lame because it's like, "Hey, let's just use this to blow up everything!", but the difference is that 1) it was a minor plot point in the least-liked campaign of SC1 and 2) it did a very simple thing; kill everything. The artifact is the central plot device of the entire WoL campaign, and it just so happens that it does the exact, incredibly specific thing that Raynor needs. Starcraft Manual Show nested quote +. Over the course of only a few hundred years, the Protoss conquered hundreds of worlds within their corner of the galaxy, and spread the fruits of their great civilization to many of the more advanced races that they encountered. All in all, the Protoss inadvertently succeeded in reclaiming an eighth of the worlds once presided over by the Xel’Naga. This feat requires a population in billions, and the protoss were heavily centered/invested on Aiur, so a good % of their population would've resided there, as sc2wikia confirms: Sc2wikia also confirms your estimates on the protoss losses on Aiur: Show nested quote +It was a pyrrhic victory at best. 70% of the population was dead. The planet was thoroughly infested[7] and much if the landscape ruined.[8] 30% of a single billion is obviously 300 millions protoss, and given there's a plural, there would be at least 600 millions protoss in that temple..... the losses suffered while fighting both zerg and a civil war on shakuras are not mentioned, they probably range between 5-70%, as it's impossible that the fighting on shakuras was harsher than the one of Aiur (it would have been mentioned, and it would be stupid to jump from the frying pan into the fire...) so with the most implausible estimates, there would be at least 180 millions protoss stuffed into a small temple, without taking the nerazim into consideration About the dark templar numbers, stuff gets trickier, the only information we have is that of the protoss tribes Ara,Akilae,Shelak,Sargas, Auriga and Furinax (the major ones) the Nerazim drew heavily on Sargas, although coming from many others as well(probably weren't the majority in Sargas tho) so.... perhaps a 5% of the population?
So if the Protoss apparently have such an extensive empire according to the Starcraft Manual, how come they are so debilitated when one planet - their homeworld - becomes infested? A civilization that advanced should not care about a single planet - they should have the technology to easily relocate their people to another world. The Protoss, in particular, have the Warp technology, perhaps the most convenient means of relocation. Why did they only have a Warp Gate leading to Shakuras? Why didn't they have one leading to the apparently hundreds of other worlds they've conquered?
Also, the Protoss civilization is apparently much older than the Zerg (Protoss were engineered first by the Xel'naga). So shouldn't the Protoss military might be categorically superior to the Zerg as it has had more time to develop? How are flying bugs ever supposed to defeat a fleet of ships that apparently can wipe out life on entire planets?
|
|
|
On March 22 2013 05:52 starimk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 04:58 Skirmjan wrote:On March 22 2013 03:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 22 2013 02:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 02:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:
the temples not big enough to fit every Protoss in existance, and it was never shown that protoss retreated
its rediculous for you to go against whats said in lore, they said in BW taht the temple would kill the Zerg it was enver even hinted that they had to evacuate Shakuras first
also heres some evidence, the temple is literally a bigger version of the artifact made by the same people and works in the same way
That's not evidence. that's you making shit up. In the mission, Zeratul explicitly says for everyone to retreat into the temple. It even shows a Scout retreating to the temple in the damn cinematic. The Protoss were almost completely wiped out by the Zerg in Episode III. The temple is large, and not all Protoss are on Shakuras. It's blatantly evident that they retreated to the temple. Um... Shakuras has several thousand years of civilization on top of it from a race of beings known as the dark templar. I refuse to believe that after they migrated to Shakuras that they kind of just hung out not reproducing and making cities at their leisure. And no, I refuse to believe an advanced race that has had a shit tonne of time to populate a planet would be so small in number that they would fit in one random temple. I also don't understand why raynor collecting artifacts is somehow more cheesy than zeratul collecting crystals. I also find it dishonest of you to think a xelnaga artifact killing bunches of zerg on char (not all) is more cheesy than a planet wide nuke on Shakuras from a xel naga temple. Both are equal to each other. And if the protoss missions spanned 30 missions you would have hated the temple nuke as well. The fact of the matter is we were spared the cheesy plots of BW and SC1 because we had such little content from it. There were less than 10 protoss missions in BW, half of it was zeratul gathering people, 2-3 of it was for collecting artifacts, and then a final mission. The reason you did not get annoyed is because there wasn't much story there. 1) Dark Templar only lived on Shakuras for about 500 years before BW. 2) There weren't a ton of Dark Templar that were exiled. 3) Not all Dark Templar settled on Shakuras. 4) Protoss reproduce far more slowly than humans. 5) The Dark Templar struggled to adapt to Shakuras, since they naturally require sunlight, which leads us to the logical conclusion that population growth was stunted. 6) Massive amounts of Protoss were killed (at least 70% of the population) during the invasion of Aiur, so they didn't add a huge amount to the existing population of Shakuras. 7) It's entirely plausible (and almost implausible to think otherwise) that the Shakuras population took heavy losses due to the Zerg invasion. Raynor's is far worse because 1) it takes up a massive chunk of the WoL campaign (taking all of two missions in BW) and 2) he just goes about randomly slaughtering Protoss to take their holy relics. The reason that the Artifact is far more cheesy is because it just happens to be a random artifact that can do exactly what they need it to do; kill Zerg (and ONLY Zerg), while at the same time de-infesting the one particular individual they want to de-infest, but then in HotS, it can act as some kind of psionic suppressor to harm Kerrigan that reacts to an obviously Terran "kill switch"-type mechanism. The temple is fairly lame because it's like, "Hey, let's just use this to blow up everything!", but the difference is that 1) it was a minor plot point in the least-liked campaign of SC1 and 2) it did a very simple thing; kill everything. The artifact is the central plot device of the entire WoL campaign, and it just so happens that it does the exact, incredibly specific thing that Raynor needs. Starcraft Manual . Over the course of only a few hundred years, the Protoss conquered hundreds of worlds within their corner of the galaxy, and spread the fruits of their great civilization to many of the more advanced races that they encountered. All in all, the Protoss inadvertently succeeded in reclaiming an eighth of the worlds once presided over by the Xel’Naga. This feat requires a population in billions, and the protoss were heavily centered/invested on Aiur, so a good % of their population would've resided there, as sc2wikia confirms: Aiur was populated by billions of protoss before its fall.[6] Sc2wikia also confirms your estimates on the protoss losses on Aiur: It was a pyrrhic victory at best. 70% of the population was dead. The planet was thoroughly infested[7] and much if the landscape ruined.[8] 30% of a single billion is obviously 300 millions protoss, and given there's a plural, there would be at least 600 millions protoss in that temple..... the losses suffered while fighting both zerg and a civil war on shakuras are not mentioned, they probably range between 5-70%, as it's impossible that the fighting on shakuras was harsher than the one of Aiur (it would have been mentioned, and it would be stupid to jump from the frying pan into the fire...) so with the most implausible estimates, there would be at least 180 millions protoss stuffed into a small temple, without taking the nerazim into consideration About the dark templar numbers, stuff gets trickier, the only information we have is that of the protoss tribes Ara,Akilae,Shelak,Sargas, Auriga and Furinax (the major ones) the Nerazim drew heavily on Sargas, although coming from many others as well(probably weren't the majority in Sargas tho) so.... perhaps a 5% of the population? So if the Protoss apparently have such an extensive empire according to the Starcraft Manual, how come they are so debilitated when one planet - their homeworld - becomes infested? A civilization that advanced should not care about a single planet - they should have the technology to easily relocate their people to another world. The Protoss, in particular, have the Warp technology, perhaps the most convenient means of relocation. Why did they only have a Warp Gate leading to Shakuras? Why didn't they have one leading to the apparently hundreds of other worlds they've conquered? Also, the Protoss civilization is apparently much older than the Zerg (Protoss were engineered first by the Xel'naga). So shouldn't the Protoss military might be categorically superior to the Zerg as it has had more time to develop? How are flying bugs ever supposed to defeat a fleet of ships that apparently can wipe out life on entire planets?
the Protoss warp gates could have taken them to hundreds of planets as for why they so ardently defended Aiur...
cause there dumb, Aiur meant more to them then there lives
|
On March 22 2013 06:09 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 05:52 starimk wrote:On March 22 2013 04:58 Skirmjan wrote:On March 22 2013 03:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 22 2013 02:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 02:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:
the temples not big enough to fit every Protoss in existance, and it was never shown that protoss retreated
its rediculous for you to go against whats said in lore, they said in BW taht the temple would kill the Zerg it was enver even hinted that they had to evacuate Shakuras first
also heres some evidence, the temple is literally a bigger version of the artifact made by the same people and works in the same way
That's not evidence. that's you making shit up. In the mission, Zeratul explicitly says for everyone to retreat into the temple. It even shows a Scout retreating to the temple in the damn cinematic. The Protoss were almost completely wiped out by the Zerg in Episode III. The temple is large, and not all Protoss are on Shakuras. It's blatantly evident that they retreated to the temple. Um... Shakuras has several thousand years of civilization on top of it from a race of beings known as the dark templar. I refuse to believe that after they migrated to Shakuras that they kind of just hung out not reproducing and making cities at their leisure. And no, I refuse to believe an advanced race that has had a shit tonne of time to populate a planet would be so small in number that they would fit in one random temple. I also don't understand why raynor collecting artifacts is somehow more cheesy than zeratul collecting crystals. I also find it dishonest of you to think a xelnaga artifact killing bunches of zerg on char (not all) is more cheesy than a planet wide nuke on Shakuras from a xel naga temple. Both are equal to each other. And if the protoss missions spanned 30 missions you would have hated the temple nuke as well. The fact of the matter is we were spared the cheesy plots of BW and SC1 because we had such little content from it. There were less than 10 protoss missions in BW, half of it was zeratul gathering people, 2-3 of it was for collecting artifacts, and then a final mission. The reason you did not get annoyed is because there wasn't much story there. 1) Dark Templar only lived on Shakuras for about 500 years before BW. 2) There weren't a ton of Dark Templar that were exiled. 3) Not all Dark Templar settled on Shakuras. 4) Protoss reproduce far more slowly than humans. 5) The Dark Templar struggled to adapt to Shakuras, since they naturally require sunlight, which leads us to the logical conclusion that population growth was stunted. 6) Massive amounts of Protoss were killed (at least 70% of the population) during the invasion of Aiur, so they didn't add a huge amount to the existing population of Shakuras. 7) It's entirely plausible (and almost implausible to think otherwise) that the Shakuras population took heavy losses due to the Zerg invasion. Raynor's is far worse because 1) it takes up a massive chunk of the WoL campaign (taking all of two missions in BW) and 2) he just goes about randomly slaughtering Protoss to take their holy relics. The reason that the Artifact is far more cheesy is because it just happens to be a random artifact that can do exactly what they need it to do; kill Zerg (and ONLY Zerg), while at the same time de-infesting the one particular individual they want to de-infest, but then in HotS, it can act as some kind of psionic suppressor to harm Kerrigan that reacts to an obviously Terran "kill switch"-type mechanism. The temple is fairly lame because it's like, "Hey, let's just use this to blow up everything!", but the difference is that 1) it was a minor plot point in the least-liked campaign of SC1 and 2) it did a very simple thing; kill everything. The artifact is the central plot device of the entire WoL campaign, and it just so happens that it does the exact, incredibly specific thing that Raynor needs. Starcraft Manual . Over the course of only a few hundred years, the Protoss conquered hundreds of worlds within their corner of the galaxy, and spread the fruits of their great civilization to many of the more advanced races that they encountered. All in all, the Protoss inadvertently succeeded in reclaiming an eighth of the worlds once presided over by the Xel’Naga. This feat requires a population in billions, and the protoss were heavily centered/invested on Aiur, so a good % of their population would've resided there, as sc2wikia confirms: Aiur was populated by billions of protoss before its fall.[6] Sc2wikia also confirms your estimates on the protoss losses on Aiur: It was a pyrrhic victory at best. 70% of the population was dead. The planet was thoroughly infested[7] and much if the landscape ruined.[8] 30% of a single billion is obviously 300 millions protoss, and given there's a plural, there would be at least 600 millions protoss in that temple..... the losses suffered while fighting both zerg and a civil war on shakuras are not mentioned, they probably range between 5-70%, as it's impossible that the fighting on shakuras was harsher than the one of Aiur (it would have been mentioned, and it would be stupid to jump from the frying pan into the fire...) so with the most implausible estimates, there would be at least 180 millions protoss stuffed into a small temple, without taking the nerazim into consideration About the dark templar numbers, stuff gets trickier, the only information we have is that of the protoss tribes Ara,Akilae,Shelak,Sargas, Auriga and Furinax (the major ones) the Nerazim drew heavily on Sargas, although coming from many others as well(probably weren't the majority in Sargas tho) so.... perhaps a 5% of the population? So if the Protoss apparently have such an extensive empire according to the Starcraft Manual, how come they are so debilitated when one planet - their homeworld - becomes infested? A civilization that advanced should not care about a single planet - they should have the technology to easily relocate their people to another world. The Protoss, in particular, have the Warp technology, perhaps the most convenient means of relocation. Why did they only have a Warp Gate leading to Shakuras? Why didn't they have one leading to the apparently hundreds of other worlds they've conquered? Also, the Protoss civilization is apparently much older than the Zerg (Protoss were engineered first by the Xel'naga). So shouldn't the Protoss military might be categorically superior to the Zerg as it has had more time to develop? How are flying bugs ever supposed to defeat a fleet of ships that apparently can wipe out life on entire planets? the Protoss warp gates could have taken them to hundreds of planets as for why they so ardently defended Aiur... cause there dumb, Aiur meant more to them then there lives
If you actually played SC1, when the protoss were shown "hey, DTs kill cerebrates!" they still didn't listen, and not only that, decided to have a civil war with you because the idea that something non-protoss being superior was so abhorrent that even after the overmind had invaded they still wouldn't accept help from Dark Templars.
Its not about stupidity its about loyalty. To give up on Auir meant giving up the Protoss identity of being the supreme race. They religiously couldn't do it.
Let me put it this way, if something came charging at my girlfriend, I'd do anything to stop it even if it means getting in front of whatever it is and getting straight to the chest. Because I love her, much like the protoss loved their planet, their culture, their identity--and they were willing to die for it. It didn't matter if it was DT influence or Zerg invasion--the protoss identity must stand firm.
|
On March 22 2013 06:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 06:09 Forikorder wrote:On March 22 2013 05:52 starimk wrote:On March 22 2013 04:58 Skirmjan wrote:On March 22 2013 03:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 22 2013 02:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 02:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:
the temples not big enough to fit every Protoss in existance, and it was never shown that protoss retreated
its rediculous for you to go against whats said in lore, they said in BW taht the temple would kill the Zerg it was enver even hinted that they had to evacuate Shakuras first
also heres some evidence, the temple is literally a bigger version of the artifact made by the same people and works in the same way
That's not evidence. that's you making shit up. In the mission, Zeratul explicitly says for everyone to retreat into the temple. It even shows a Scout retreating to the temple in the damn cinematic. The Protoss were almost completely wiped out by the Zerg in Episode III. The temple is large, and not all Protoss are on Shakuras. It's blatantly evident that they retreated to the temple. Um... Shakuras has several thousand years of civilization on top of it from a race of beings known as the dark templar. I refuse to believe that after they migrated to Shakuras that they kind of just hung out not reproducing and making cities at their leisure. And no, I refuse to believe an advanced race that has had a shit tonne of time to populate a planet would be so small in number that they would fit in one random temple. I also don't understand why raynor collecting artifacts is somehow more cheesy than zeratul collecting crystals. I also find it dishonest of you to think a xelnaga artifact killing bunches of zerg on char (not all) is more cheesy than a planet wide nuke on Shakuras from a xel naga temple. Both are equal to each other. And if the protoss missions spanned 30 missions you would have hated the temple nuke as well. The fact of the matter is we were spared the cheesy plots of BW and SC1 because we had such little content from it. There were less than 10 protoss missions in BW, half of it was zeratul gathering people, 2-3 of it was for collecting artifacts, and then a final mission. The reason you did not get annoyed is because there wasn't much story there. 1) Dark Templar only lived on Shakuras for about 500 years before BW. 2) There weren't a ton of Dark Templar that were exiled. 3) Not all Dark Templar settled on Shakuras. 4) Protoss reproduce far more slowly than humans. 5) The Dark Templar struggled to adapt to Shakuras, since they naturally require sunlight, which leads us to the logical conclusion that population growth was stunted. 6) Massive amounts of Protoss were killed (at least 70% of the population) during the invasion of Aiur, so they didn't add a huge amount to the existing population of Shakuras. 7) It's entirely plausible (and almost implausible to think otherwise) that the Shakuras population took heavy losses due to the Zerg invasion. Raynor's is far worse because 1) it takes up a massive chunk of the WoL campaign (taking all of two missions in BW) and 2) he just goes about randomly slaughtering Protoss to take their holy relics. The reason that the Artifact is far more cheesy is because it just happens to be a random artifact that can do exactly what they need it to do; kill Zerg (and ONLY Zerg), while at the same time de-infesting the one particular individual they want to de-infest, but then in HotS, it can act as some kind of psionic suppressor to harm Kerrigan that reacts to an obviously Terran "kill switch"-type mechanism. The temple is fairly lame because it's like, "Hey, let's just use this to blow up everything!", but the difference is that 1) it was a minor plot point in the least-liked campaign of SC1 and 2) it did a very simple thing; kill everything. The artifact is the central plot device of the entire WoL campaign, and it just so happens that it does the exact, incredibly specific thing that Raynor needs. Starcraft Manual . Over the course of only a few hundred years, the Protoss conquered hundreds of worlds within their corner of the galaxy, and spread the fruits of their great civilization to many of the more advanced races that they encountered. All in all, the Protoss inadvertently succeeded in reclaiming an eighth of the worlds once presided over by the Xel’Naga. This feat requires a population in billions, and the protoss were heavily centered/invested on Aiur, so a good % of their population would've resided there, as sc2wikia confirms: Aiur was populated by billions of protoss before its fall.[6] Sc2wikia also confirms your estimates on the protoss losses on Aiur: It was a pyrrhic victory at best. 70% of the population was dead. The planet was thoroughly infested[7] and much if the landscape ruined.[8] 30% of a single billion is obviously 300 millions protoss, and given there's a plural, there would be at least 600 millions protoss in that temple..... the losses suffered while fighting both zerg and a civil war on shakuras are not mentioned, they probably range between 5-70%, as it's impossible that the fighting on shakuras was harsher than the one of Aiur (it would have been mentioned, and it would be stupid to jump from the frying pan into the fire...) so with the most implausible estimates, there would be at least 180 millions protoss stuffed into a small temple, without taking the nerazim into consideration About the dark templar numbers, stuff gets trickier, the only information we have is that of the protoss tribes Ara,Akilae,Shelak,Sargas, Auriga and Furinax (the major ones) the Nerazim drew heavily on Sargas, although coming from many others as well(probably weren't the majority in Sargas tho) so.... perhaps a 5% of the population? So if the Protoss apparently have such an extensive empire according to the Starcraft Manual, how come they are so debilitated when one planet - their homeworld - becomes infested? A civilization that advanced should not care about a single planet - they should have the technology to easily relocate their people to another world. The Protoss, in particular, have the Warp technology, perhaps the most convenient means of relocation. Why did they only have a Warp Gate leading to Shakuras? Why didn't they have one leading to the apparently hundreds of other worlds they've conquered? Also, the Protoss civilization is apparently much older than the Zerg (Protoss were engineered first by the Xel'naga). So shouldn't the Protoss military might be categorically superior to the Zerg as it has had more time to develop? How are flying bugs ever supposed to defeat a fleet of ships that apparently can wipe out life on entire planets? the Protoss warp gates could have taken them to hundreds of planets as for why they so ardently defended Aiur... cause there dumb, Aiur meant more to them then there lives If you actually played SC1, when the protoss were shown "hey, DTs kill cerebrates!" they still didn't listen, and not only that, decided to have a civil war with you because the idea that something non-protoss being superior was so abhorrent that even after the overmind had invaded they still wouldn't accept help from Dark Templars. Its not about stupidity its about loyalty. To give up on Auir meant giving up the Protoss identity of being the supreme race. They religiously couldn't do it. Let me put it this way, if something came charging at my girlfriend, I'd do anything to stop it even if it means getting in front of whatever it is and getting straight to the chest. Because I love her, much like the protoss loved their planet, their culture, their identity--and they were willing to die for it. It didn't matter if it was DT influence or Zerg invasion--the protoss identity must stand firm.
exactly pure stupidity they refused to bend so tehy broke
to use your example, imagine if a train was heading at your GF, right next to you was the emergency break button wich you could hit to stop the train but instead you jump in front of her and both of you die
|
On March 22 2013 06:30 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 06:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 06:09 Forikorder wrote:On March 22 2013 05:52 starimk wrote:On March 22 2013 04:58 Skirmjan wrote:On March 22 2013 03:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 22 2013 02:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 02:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:
the temples not big enough to fit every Protoss in existance, and it was never shown that protoss retreated
its rediculous for you to go against whats said in lore, they said in BW taht the temple would kill the Zerg it was enver even hinted that they had to evacuate Shakuras first
also heres some evidence, the temple is literally a bigger version of the artifact made by the same people and works in the same way
That's not evidence. that's you making shit up. In the mission, Zeratul explicitly says for everyone to retreat into the temple. It even shows a Scout retreating to the temple in the damn cinematic. The Protoss were almost completely wiped out by the Zerg in Episode III. The temple is large, and not all Protoss are on Shakuras. It's blatantly evident that they retreated to the temple. Um... Shakuras has several thousand years of civilization on top of it from a race of beings known as the dark templar. I refuse to believe that after they migrated to Shakuras that they kind of just hung out not reproducing and making cities at their leisure. And no, I refuse to believe an advanced race that has had a shit tonne of time to populate a planet would be so small in number that they would fit in one random temple. I also don't understand why raynor collecting artifacts is somehow more cheesy than zeratul collecting crystals. I also find it dishonest of you to think a xelnaga artifact killing bunches of zerg on char (not all) is more cheesy than a planet wide nuke on Shakuras from a xel naga temple. Both are equal to each other. And if the protoss missions spanned 30 missions you would have hated the temple nuke as well. The fact of the matter is we were spared the cheesy plots of BW and SC1 because we had such little content from it. There were less than 10 protoss missions in BW, half of it was zeratul gathering people, 2-3 of it was for collecting artifacts, and then a final mission. The reason you did not get annoyed is because there wasn't much story there. 1) Dark Templar only lived on Shakuras for about 500 years before BW. 2) There weren't a ton of Dark Templar that were exiled. 3) Not all Dark Templar settled on Shakuras. 4) Protoss reproduce far more slowly than humans. 5) The Dark Templar struggled to adapt to Shakuras, since they naturally require sunlight, which leads us to the logical conclusion that population growth was stunted. 6) Massive amounts of Protoss were killed (at least 70% of the population) during the invasion of Aiur, so they didn't add a huge amount to the existing population of Shakuras. 7) It's entirely plausible (and almost implausible to think otherwise) that the Shakuras population took heavy losses due to the Zerg invasion. Raynor's is far worse because 1) it takes up a massive chunk of the WoL campaign (taking all of two missions in BW) and 2) he just goes about randomly slaughtering Protoss to take their holy relics. The reason that the Artifact is far more cheesy is because it just happens to be a random artifact that can do exactly what they need it to do; kill Zerg (and ONLY Zerg), while at the same time de-infesting the one particular individual they want to de-infest, but then in HotS, it can act as some kind of psionic suppressor to harm Kerrigan that reacts to an obviously Terran "kill switch"-type mechanism. The temple is fairly lame because it's like, "Hey, let's just use this to blow up everything!", but the difference is that 1) it was a minor plot point in the least-liked campaign of SC1 and 2) it did a very simple thing; kill everything. The artifact is the central plot device of the entire WoL campaign, and it just so happens that it does the exact, incredibly specific thing that Raynor needs. Starcraft Manual . Over the course of only a few hundred years, the Protoss conquered hundreds of worlds within their corner of the galaxy, and spread the fruits of their great civilization to many of the more advanced races that they encountered. All in all, the Protoss inadvertently succeeded in reclaiming an eighth of the worlds once presided over by the Xel’Naga. This feat requires a population in billions, and the protoss were heavily centered/invested on Aiur, so a good % of their population would've resided there, as sc2wikia confirms: Aiur was populated by billions of protoss before its fall.[6] Sc2wikia also confirms your estimates on the protoss losses on Aiur: It was a pyrrhic victory at best. 70% of the population was dead. The planet was thoroughly infested[7] and much if the landscape ruined.[8] 30% of a single billion is obviously 300 millions protoss, and given there's a plural, there would be at least 600 millions protoss in that temple..... the losses suffered while fighting both zerg and a civil war on shakuras are not mentioned, they probably range between 5-70%, as it's impossible that the fighting on shakuras was harsher than the one of Aiur (it would have been mentioned, and it would be stupid to jump from the frying pan into the fire...) so with the most implausible estimates, there would be at least 180 millions protoss stuffed into a small temple, without taking the nerazim into consideration About the dark templar numbers, stuff gets trickier, the only information we have is that of the protoss tribes Ara,Akilae,Shelak,Sargas, Auriga and Furinax (the major ones) the Nerazim drew heavily on Sargas, although coming from many others as well(probably weren't the majority in Sargas tho) so.... perhaps a 5% of the population? So if the Protoss apparently have such an extensive empire according to the Starcraft Manual, how come they are so debilitated when one planet - their homeworld - becomes infested? A civilization that advanced should not care about a single planet - they should have the technology to easily relocate their people to another world. The Protoss, in particular, have the Warp technology, perhaps the most convenient means of relocation. Why did they only have a Warp Gate leading to Shakuras? Why didn't they have one leading to the apparently hundreds of other worlds they've conquered? Also, the Protoss civilization is apparently much older than the Zerg (Protoss were engineered first by the Xel'naga). So shouldn't the Protoss military might be categorically superior to the Zerg as it has had more time to develop? How are flying bugs ever supposed to defeat a fleet of ships that apparently can wipe out life on entire planets? the Protoss warp gates could have taken them to hundreds of planets as for why they so ardently defended Aiur... cause there dumb, Aiur meant more to them then there lives If you actually played SC1, when the protoss were shown "hey, DTs kill cerebrates!" they still didn't listen, and not only that, decided to have a civil war with you because the idea that something non-protoss being superior was so abhorrent that even after the overmind had invaded they still wouldn't accept help from Dark Templars. Its not about stupidity its about loyalty. To give up on Auir meant giving up the Protoss identity of being the supreme race. They religiously couldn't do it. Let me put it this way, if something came charging at my girlfriend, I'd do anything to stop it even if it means getting in front of whatever it is and getting straight to the chest. Because I love her, much like the protoss loved their planet, their culture, their identity--and they were willing to die for it. It didn't matter if it was DT influence or Zerg invasion--the protoss identity must stand firm. exactly pure stupidity they refused to bend so tehy broke to use your example, imagine if a train was heading at your GF, right next to you was the emergency break button wich you could hit to stop the train but instead you jump in front of her and both of you die
Depends, do I honestly and vehemently believe I'm superman? Then I will stand in front of the train. Do I know I'm just a lowly terran who has learned high school level physics? Then I'm pulling the break.
But if I was smart person I would have asked my girlfriend not to walk on the train tracks to begin with especially when trains are on it.
Besides, its only stupidity because it didn't work. Going kamikazi with your strongest weapon would have looked stupid if it didn't kill the overmind. So would have believing that two random crystals would somehow make a planet wide nuke strong enough to stop an army that the best of auir couldn't stop.
Now I do think what they did was stupid and ignorant--but that's because I have hindsight on my side. The protoss regularly burn planets. Of course they thought they could fight off some oversized dogs and for legged house sized bugs. Them being wrong doesn't mean they didn't have a good reason for it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
