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On March 22 2013 06:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 06:30 Forikorder wrote:On March 22 2013 06:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 06:09 Forikorder wrote:On March 22 2013 05:52 starimk wrote:On March 22 2013 04:58 Skirmjan wrote:On March 22 2013 03:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 22 2013 02:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 02:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:
the temples not big enough to fit every Protoss in existance, and it was never shown that protoss retreated
its rediculous for you to go against whats said in lore, they said in BW taht the temple would kill the Zerg it was enver even hinted that they had to evacuate Shakuras first
also heres some evidence, the temple is literally a bigger version of the artifact made by the same people and works in the same way
That's not evidence. that's you making shit up. In the mission, Zeratul explicitly says for everyone to retreat into the temple. It even shows a Scout retreating to the temple in the damn cinematic. The Protoss were almost completely wiped out by the Zerg in Episode III. The temple is large, and not all Protoss are on Shakuras. It's blatantly evident that they retreated to the temple. Um... Shakuras has several thousand years of civilization on top of it from a race of beings known as the dark templar. I refuse to believe that after they migrated to Shakuras that they kind of just hung out not reproducing and making cities at their leisure. And no, I refuse to believe an advanced race that has had a shit tonne of time to populate a planet would be so small in number that they would fit in one random temple. I also don't understand why raynor collecting artifacts is somehow more cheesy than zeratul collecting crystals. I also find it dishonest of you to think a xelnaga artifact killing bunches of zerg on char (not all) is more cheesy than a planet wide nuke on Shakuras from a xel naga temple. Both are equal to each other. And if the protoss missions spanned 30 missions you would have hated the temple nuke as well. The fact of the matter is we were spared the cheesy plots of BW and SC1 because we had such little content from it. There were less than 10 protoss missions in BW, half of it was zeratul gathering people, 2-3 of it was for collecting artifacts, and then a final mission. The reason you did not get annoyed is because there wasn't much story there. 1) Dark Templar only lived on Shakuras for about 500 years before BW. 2) There weren't a ton of Dark Templar that were exiled. 3) Not all Dark Templar settled on Shakuras. 4) Protoss reproduce far more slowly than humans. 5) The Dark Templar struggled to adapt to Shakuras, since they naturally require sunlight, which leads us to the logical conclusion that population growth was stunted. 6) Massive amounts of Protoss were killed (at least 70% of the population) during the invasion of Aiur, so they didn't add a huge amount to the existing population of Shakuras. 7) It's entirely plausible (and almost implausible to think otherwise) that the Shakuras population took heavy losses due to the Zerg invasion. Raynor's is far worse because 1) it takes up a massive chunk of the WoL campaign (taking all of two missions in BW) and 2) he just goes about randomly slaughtering Protoss to take their holy relics. The reason that the Artifact is far more cheesy is because it just happens to be a random artifact that can do exactly what they need it to do; kill Zerg (and ONLY Zerg), while at the same time de-infesting the one particular individual they want to de-infest, but then in HotS, it can act as some kind of psionic suppressor to harm Kerrigan that reacts to an obviously Terran "kill switch"-type mechanism. The temple is fairly lame because it's like, "Hey, let's just use this to blow up everything!", but the difference is that 1) it was a minor plot point in the least-liked campaign of SC1 and 2) it did a very simple thing; kill everything. The artifact is the central plot device of the entire WoL campaign, and it just so happens that it does the exact, incredibly specific thing that Raynor needs. Starcraft Manual . Over the course of only a few hundred years, the Protoss conquered hundreds of worlds within their corner of the galaxy, and spread the fruits of their great civilization to many of the more advanced races that they encountered. All in all, the Protoss inadvertently succeeded in reclaiming an eighth of the worlds once presided over by the Xel’Naga. This feat requires a population in billions, and the protoss were heavily centered/invested on Aiur, so a good % of their population would've resided there, as sc2wikia confirms: Aiur was populated by billions of protoss before its fall.[6] Sc2wikia also confirms your estimates on the protoss losses on Aiur: It was a pyrrhic victory at best. 70% of the population was dead. The planet was thoroughly infested[7] and much if the landscape ruined.[8] 30% of a single billion is obviously 300 millions protoss, and given there's a plural, there would be at least 600 millions protoss in that temple..... the losses suffered while fighting both zerg and a civil war on shakuras are not mentioned, they probably range between 5-70%, as it's impossible that the fighting on shakuras was harsher than the one of Aiur (it would have been mentioned, and it would be stupid to jump from the frying pan into the fire...) so with the most implausible estimates, there would be at least 180 millions protoss stuffed into a small temple, without taking the nerazim into consideration About the dark templar numbers, stuff gets trickier, the only information we have is that of the protoss tribes Ara,Akilae,Shelak,Sargas, Auriga and Furinax (the major ones) the Nerazim drew heavily on Sargas, although coming from many others as well(probably weren't the majority in Sargas tho) so.... perhaps a 5% of the population? So if the Protoss apparently have such an extensive empire according to the Starcraft Manual, how come they are so debilitated when one planet - their homeworld - becomes infested? A civilization that advanced should not care about a single planet - they should have the technology to easily relocate their people to another world. The Protoss, in particular, have the Warp technology, perhaps the most convenient means of relocation. Why did they only have a Warp Gate leading to Shakuras? Why didn't they have one leading to the apparently hundreds of other worlds they've conquered? Also, the Protoss civilization is apparently much older than the Zerg (Protoss were engineered first by the Xel'naga). So shouldn't the Protoss military might be categorically superior to the Zerg as it has had more time to develop? How are flying bugs ever supposed to defeat a fleet of ships that apparently can wipe out life on entire planets? the Protoss warp gates could have taken them to hundreds of planets as for why they so ardently defended Aiur... cause there dumb, Aiur meant more to them then there lives If you actually played SC1, when the protoss were shown "hey, DTs kill cerebrates!" they still didn't listen, and not only that, decided to have a civil war with you because the idea that something non-protoss being superior was so abhorrent that even after the overmind had invaded they still wouldn't accept help from Dark Templars. Its not about stupidity its about loyalty. To give up on Auir meant giving up the Protoss identity of being the supreme race. They religiously couldn't do it. Let me put it this way, if something came charging at my girlfriend, I'd do anything to stop it even if it means getting in front of whatever it is and getting straight to the chest. Because I love her, much like the protoss loved their planet, their culture, their identity--and they were willing to die for it. It didn't matter if it was DT influence or Zerg invasion--the protoss identity must stand firm. exactly pure stupidity they refused to bend so tehy broke to use your example, imagine if a train was heading at your GF, right next to you was the emergency break button wich you could hit to stop the train but instead you jump in front of her and both of you die Depends, do I honestly and vehemently believe I'm superman? Then I will stand in front of the train. Do I know I'm just a lowly terran who has learned high school level physics? Then I'm pulling the break. But if I was smart person I would have asked my girlfriend not to walk on the train tracks to begin with especially when trains are on it. Besides, its only stupidity because it didn't work. Going kamikazi with your strongest weapon would have looked stupid if it didn't kill the overmind. So would have believing that two random crystals would somehow make a planet wide nuke strong enough to stop an army that the best of auir couldn't stop. Now I do think what they did was stupid and ignorant--but that's because I have hindsight on my side. The protoss regularly burn planets. Of course they thought they could fight off some oversized dogs and for legged house sized bugs. Them being wrong doesn't mean they didn't have a good reason for it.
and what good reason prompted them to take there fleet, leave Aiur (while it was under attack) to go arrest Tassadar in order to execute him?
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On March 22 2013 06:49 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 06:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 06:30 Forikorder wrote:On March 22 2013 06:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 06:09 Forikorder wrote:On March 22 2013 05:52 starimk wrote:On March 22 2013 04:58 Skirmjan wrote:On March 22 2013 03:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 22 2013 02:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 02:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:
[quote]
That's not evidence. that's you making shit up.
In the mission, Zeratul explicitly says for everyone to retreat into the temple. It even shows a Scout retreating to the temple in the damn cinematic.
The Protoss were almost completely wiped out by the Zerg in Episode III. The temple is large, and not all Protoss are on Shakuras. It's blatantly evident that they retreated to the temple. Um... Shakuras has several thousand years of civilization on top of it from a race of beings known as the dark templar. I refuse to believe that after they migrated to Shakuras that they kind of just hung out not reproducing and making cities at their leisure. And no, I refuse to believe an advanced race that has had a shit tonne of time to populate a planet would be so small in number that they would fit in one random temple. I also don't understand why raynor collecting artifacts is somehow more cheesy than zeratul collecting crystals. I also find it dishonest of you to think a xelnaga artifact killing bunches of zerg on char (not all) is more cheesy than a planet wide nuke on Shakuras from a xel naga temple. Both are equal to each other. And if the protoss missions spanned 30 missions you would have hated the temple nuke as well. The fact of the matter is we were spared the cheesy plots of BW and SC1 because we had such little content from it. There were less than 10 protoss missions in BW, half of it was zeratul gathering people, 2-3 of it was for collecting artifacts, and then a final mission. The reason you did not get annoyed is because there wasn't much story there. 1) Dark Templar only lived on Shakuras for about 500 years before BW. 2) There weren't a ton of Dark Templar that were exiled. 3) Not all Dark Templar settled on Shakuras. 4) Protoss reproduce far more slowly than humans. 5) The Dark Templar struggled to adapt to Shakuras, since they naturally require sunlight, which leads us to the logical conclusion that population growth was stunted. 6) Massive amounts of Protoss were killed (at least 70% of the population) during the invasion of Aiur, so they didn't add a huge amount to the existing population of Shakuras. 7) It's entirely plausible (and almost implausible to think otherwise) that the Shakuras population took heavy losses due to the Zerg invasion. Raynor's is far worse because 1) it takes up a massive chunk of the WoL campaign (taking all of two missions in BW) and 2) he just goes about randomly slaughtering Protoss to take their holy relics. The reason that the Artifact is far more cheesy is because it just happens to be a random artifact that can do exactly what they need it to do; kill Zerg (and ONLY Zerg), while at the same time de-infesting the one particular individual they want to de-infest, but then in HotS, it can act as some kind of psionic suppressor to harm Kerrigan that reacts to an obviously Terran "kill switch"-type mechanism. The temple is fairly lame because it's like, "Hey, let's just use this to blow up everything!", but the difference is that 1) it was a minor plot point in the least-liked campaign of SC1 and 2) it did a very simple thing; kill everything. The artifact is the central plot device of the entire WoL campaign, and it just so happens that it does the exact, incredibly specific thing that Raynor needs. Starcraft Manual . Over the course of only a few hundred years, the Protoss conquered hundreds of worlds within their corner of the galaxy, and spread the fruits of their great civilization to many of the more advanced races that they encountered. All in all, the Protoss inadvertently succeeded in reclaiming an eighth of the worlds once presided over by the Xel’Naga. This feat requires a population in billions, and the protoss were heavily centered/invested on Aiur, so a good % of their population would've resided there, as sc2wikia confirms: Aiur was populated by billions of protoss before its fall.[6] Sc2wikia also confirms your estimates on the protoss losses on Aiur: It was a pyrrhic victory at best. 70% of the population was dead. The planet was thoroughly infested[7] and much if the landscape ruined.[8] 30% of a single billion is obviously 300 millions protoss, and given there's a plural, there would be at least 600 millions protoss in that temple..... the losses suffered while fighting both zerg and a civil war on shakuras are not mentioned, they probably range between 5-70%, as it's impossible that the fighting on shakuras was harsher than the one of Aiur (it would have been mentioned, and it would be stupid to jump from the frying pan into the fire...) so with the most implausible estimates, there would be at least 180 millions protoss stuffed into a small temple, without taking the nerazim into consideration About the dark templar numbers, stuff gets trickier, the only information we have is that of the protoss tribes Ara,Akilae,Shelak,Sargas, Auriga and Furinax (the major ones) the Nerazim drew heavily on Sargas, although coming from many others as well(probably weren't the majority in Sargas tho) so.... perhaps a 5% of the population? So if the Protoss apparently have such an extensive empire according to the Starcraft Manual, how come they are so debilitated when one planet - their homeworld - becomes infested? A civilization that advanced should not care about a single planet - they should have the technology to easily relocate their people to another world. The Protoss, in particular, have the Warp technology, perhaps the most convenient means of relocation. Why did they only have a Warp Gate leading to Shakuras? Why didn't they have one leading to the apparently hundreds of other worlds they've conquered? Also, the Protoss civilization is apparently much older than the Zerg (Protoss were engineered first by the Xel'naga). So shouldn't the Protoss military might be categorically superior to the Zerg as it has had more time to develop? How are flying bugs ever supposed to defeat a fleet of ships that apparently can wipe out life on entire planets? the Protoss warp gates could have taken them to hundreds of planets as for why they so ardently defended Aiur... cause there dumb, Aiur meant more to them then there lives If you actually played SC1, when the protoss were shown "hey, DTs kill cerebrates!" they still didn't listen, and not only that, decided to have a civil war with you because the idea that something non-protoss being superior was so abhorrent that even after the overmind had invaded they still wouldn't accept help from Dark Templars. Its not about stupidity its about loyalty. To give up on Auir meant giving up the Protoss identity of being the supreme race. They religiously couldn't do it. Let me put it this way, if something came charging at my girlfriend, I'd do anything to stop it even if it means getting in front of whatever it is and getting straight to the chest. Because I love her, much like the protoss loved their planet, their culture, their identity--and they were willing to die for it. It didn't matter if it was DT influence or Zerg invasion--the protoss identity must stand firm. exactly pure stupidity they refused to bend so tehy broke to use your example, imagine if a train was heading at your GF, right next to you was the emergency break button wich you could hit to stop the train but instead you jump in front of her and both of you die Depends, do I honestly and vehemently believe I'm superman? Then I will stand in front of the train. Do I know I'm just a lowly terran who has learned high school level physics? Then I'm pulling the break. But if I was smart person I would have asked my girlfriend not to walk on the train tracks to begin with especially when trains are on it. Besides, its only stupidity because it didn't work. Going kamikazi with your strongest weapon would have looked stupid if it didn't kill the overmind. So would have believing that two random crystals would somehow make a planet wide nuke strong enough to stop an army that the best of auir couldn't stop. Now I do think what they did was stupid and ignorant--but that's because I have hindsight on my side. The protoss regularly burn planets. Of course they thought they could fight off some oversized dogs and for legged house sized bugs. Them being wrong doesn't mean they didn't have a good reason for it. and what good reason prompted them to take there fleet, leave Aiur (while it was under attack) to go arrest Tassadar in order to execute him?
Other than the idea that the Dark templar were right all along and the millions they butchered during their aeon of strife was a waste of men and resources and that they shouldn't have gone against that fringe belief system at all--other then that, nothing really.
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On March 22 2013 07:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 06:49 Forikorder wrote:On March 22 2013 06:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 06:30 Forikorder wrote:On March 22 2013 06:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 06:09 Forikorder wrote:On March 22 2013 05:52 starimk wrote:On March 22 2013 04:58 Skirmjan wrote:On March 22 2013 03:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 22 2013 02:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
Um... Shakuras has several thousand years of civilization on top of it from a race of beings known as the dark templar. I refuse to believe that after they migrated to Shakuras that they kind of just hung out not reproducing and making cities at their leisure. And no, I refuse to believe an advanced race that has had a shit tonne of time to populate a planet would be so small in number that they would fit in one random temple.
I also don't understand why raynor collecting artifacts is somehow more cheesy than zeratul collecting crystals.
I also find it dishonest of you to think a xelnaga artifact killing bunches of zerg on char (not all) is more cheesy than a planet wide nuke on Shakuras from a xel naga temple.
Both are equal to each other. And if the protoss missions spanned 30 missions you would have hated the temple nuke as well. The fact of the matter is we were spared the cheesy plots of BW and SC1 because we had such little content from it. There were less than 10 protoss missions in BW, half of it was zeratul gathering people, 2-3 of it was for collecting artifacts, and then a final mission. The reason you did not get annoyed is because there wasn't much story there. 1) Dark Templar only lived on Shakuras for about 500 years before BW. 2) There weren't a ton of Dark Templar that were exiled. 3) Not all Dark Templar settled on Shakuras. 4) Protoss reproduce far more slowly than humans. 5) The Dark Templar struggled to adapt to Shakuras, since they naturally require sunlight, which leads us to the logical conclusion that population growth was stunted. 6) Massive amounts of Protoss were killed (at least 70% of the population) during the invasion of Aiur, so they didn't add a huge amount to the existing population of Shakuras. 7) It's entirely plausible (and almost implausible to think otherwise) that the Shakuras population took heavy losses due to the Zerg invasion. Raynor's is far worse because 1) it takes up a massive chunk of the WoL campaign (taking all of two missions in BW) and 2) he just goes about randomly slaughtering Protoss to take their holy relics. The reason that the Artifact is far more cheesy is because it just happens to be a random artifact that can do exactly what they need it to do; kill Zerg (and ONLY Zerg), while at the same time de-infesting the one particular individual they want to de-infest, but then in HotS, it can act as some kind of psionic suppressor to harm Kerrigan that reacts to an obviously Terran "kill switch"-type mechanism. The temple is fairly lame because it's like, "Hey, let's just use this to blow up everything!", but the difference is that 1) it was a minor plot point in the least-liked campaign of SC1 and 2) it did a very simple thing; kill everything. The artifact is the central plot device of the entire WoL campaign, and it just so happens that it does the exact, incredibly specific thing that Raynor needs. Starcraft Manual . Over the course of only a few hundred years, the Protoss conquered hundreds of worlds within their corner of the galaxy, and spread the fruits of their great civilization to many of the more advanced races that they encountered. All in all, the Protoss inadvertently succeeded in reclaiming an eighth of the worlds once presided over by the Xel’Naga. This feat requires a population in billions, and the protoss were heavily centered/invested on Aiur, so a good % of their population would've resided there, as sc2wikia confirms: Aiur was populated by billions of protoss before its fall.[6] Sc2wikia also confirms your estimates on the protoss losses on Aiur: It was a pyrrhic victory at best. 70% of the population was dead. The planet was thoroughly infested[7] and much if the landscape ruined.[8] 30% of a single billion is obviously 300 millions protoss, and given there's a plural, there would be at least 600 millions protoss in that temple..... the losses suffered while fighting both zerg and a civil war on shakuras are not mentioned, they probably range between 5-70%, as it's impossible that the fighting on shakuras was harsher than the one of Aiur (it would have been mentioned, and it would be stupid to jump from the frying pan into the fire...) so with the most implausible estimates, there would be at least 180 millions protoss stuffed into a small temple, without taking the nerazim into consideration About the dark templar numbers, stuff gets trickier, the only information we have is that of the protoss tribes Ara,Akilae,Shelak,Sargas, Auriga and Furinax (the major ones) the Nerazim drew heavily on Sargas, although coming from many others as well(probably weren't the majority in Sargas tho) so.... perhaps a 5% of the population? So if the Protoss apparently have such an extensive empire according to the Starcraft Manual, how come they are so debilitated when one planet - their homeworld - becomes infested? A civilization that advanced should not care about a single planet - they should have the technology to easily relocate their people to another world. The Protoss, in particular, have the Warp technology, perhaps the most convenient means of relocation. Why did they only have a Warp Gate leading to Shakuras? Why didn't they have one leading to the apparently hundreds of other worlds they've conquered? Also, the Protoss civilization is apparently much older than the Zerg (Protoss were engineered first by the Xel'naga). So shouldn't the Protoss military might be categorically superior to the Zerg as it has had more time to develop? How are flying bugs ever supposed to defeat a fleet of ships that apparently can wipe out life on entire planets? the Protoss warp gates could have taken them to hundreds of planets as for why they so ardently defended Aiur... cause there dumb, Aiur meant more to them then there lives If you actually played SC1, when the protoss were shown "hey, DTs kill cerebrates!" they still didn't listen, and not only that, decided to have a civil war with you because the idea that something non-protoss being superior was so abhorrent that even after the overmind had invaded they still wouldn't accept help from Dark Templars. Its not about stupidity its about loyalty. To give up on Auir meant giving up the Protoss identity of being the supreme race. They religiously couldn't do it. Let me put it this way, if something came charging at my girlfriend, I'd do anything to stop it even if it means getting in front of whatever it is and getting straight to the chest. Because I love her, much like the protoss loved their planet, their culture, their identity--and they were willing to die for it. It didn't matter if it was DT influence or Zerg invasion--the protoss identity must stand firm. exactly pure stupidity they refused to bend so tehy broke to use your example, imagine if a train was heading at your GF, right next to you was the emergency break button wich you could hit to stop the train but instead you jump in front of her and both of you die Depends, do I honestly and vehemently believe I'm superman? Then I will stand in front of the train. Do I know I'm just a lowly terran who has learned high school level physics? Then I'm pulling the break. But if I was smart person I would have asked my girlfriend not to walk on the train tracks to begin with especially when trains are on it. Besides, its only stupidity because it didn't work. Going kamikazi with your strongest weapon would have looked stupid if it didn't kill the overmind. So would have believing that two random crystals would somehow make a planet wide nuke strong enough to stop an army that the best of auir couldn't stop. Now I do think what they did was stupid and ignorant--but that's because I have hindsight on my side. The protoss regularly burn planets. Of course they thought they could fight off some oversized dogs and for legged house sized bugs. Them being wrong doesn't mean they didn't have a good reason for it. and what good reason prompted them to take there fleet, leave Aiur (while it was under attack) to go arrest Tassadar in order to execute him? Other than the idea that the Dark templar were right all along and the millions they butchered during their aeon of strife was a waste of men and resources and that they shouldn't have gone against that fringe belief system at all--other then that, nothing really.
what?
did you reply to the right person?
if you did i honestly cant understand what you were trying to say here
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On March 22 2013 07:07 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 07:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 06:49 Forikorder wrote:On March 22 2013 06:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 06:30 Forikorder wrote:On March 22 2013 06:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 06:09 Forikorder wrote:On March 22 2013 05:52 starimk wrote:On March 22 2013 04:58 Skirmjan wrote:On March 22 2013 03:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:
[quote]
1) Dark Templar only lived on Shakuras for about 500 years before BW.
2) There weren't a ton of Dark Templar that were exiled.
3) Not all Dark Templar settled on Shakuras.
4) Protoss reproduce far more slowly than humans.
5) The Dark Templar struggled to adapt to Shakuras, since they naturally require sunlight, which leads us to the logical conclusion that population growth was stunted.
6) Massive amounts of Protoss were killed (at least 70% of the population) during the invasion of Aiur, so they didn't add a huge amount to the existing population of Shakuras.
7) It's entirely plausible (and almost implausible to think otherwise) that the Shakuras population took heavy losses due to the Zerg invasion.
Raynor's is far worse because 1) it takes up a massive chunk of the WoL campaign (taking all of two missions in BW) and 2) he just goes about randomly slaughtering Protoss to take their holy relics. The reason that the Artifact is far more cheesy is because it just happens to be a random artifact that can do exactly what they need it to do; kill Zerg (and ONLY Zerg), while at the same time de-infesting the one particular individual they want to de-infest, but then in HotS, it can act as some kind of psionic suppressor to harm Kerrigan that reacts to an obviously Terran "kill switch"-type mechanism. The temple is fairly lame because it's like, "Hey, let's just use this to blow up everything!", but the difference is that 1) it was a minor plot point in the least-liked campaign of SC1 and 2) it did a very simple thing; kill everything. The artifact is the central plot device of the entire WoL campaign, and it just so happens that it does the exact, incredibly specific thing that Raynor needs. Starcraft Manual . Over the course of only a few hundred years, the Protoss conquered hundreds of worlds within their corner of the galaxy, and spread the fruits of their great civilization to many of the more advanced races that they encountered. All in all, the Protoss inadvertently succeeded in reclaiming an eighth of the worlds once presided over by the Xel’Naga. This feat requires a population in billions, and the protoss were heavily centered/invested on Aiur, so a good % of their population would've resided there, as sc2wikia confirms: Aiur was populated by billions of protoss before its fall.[6] Sc2wikia also confirms your estimates on the protoss losses on Aiur: It was a pyrrhic victory at best. 70% of the population was dead. The planet was thoroughly infested[7] and much if the landscape ruined.[8] 30% of a single billion is obviously 300 millions protoss, and given there's a plural, there would be at least 600 millions protoss in that temple..... the losses suffered while fighting both zerg and a civil war on shakuras are not mentioned, they probably range between 5-70%, as it's impossible that the fighting on shakuras was harsher than the one of Aiur (it would have been mentioned, and it would be stupid to jump from the frying pan into the fire...) so with the most implausible estimates, there would be at least 180 millions protoss stuffed into a small temple, without taking the nerazim into consideration About the dark templar numbers, stuff gets trickier, the only information we have is that of the protoss tribes Ara,Akilae,Shelak,Sargas, Auriga and Furinax (the major ones) the Nerazim drew heavily on Sargas, although coming from many others as well(probably weren't the majority in Sargas tho) so.... perhaps a 5% of the population? So if the Protoss apparently have such an extensive empire according to the Starcraft Manual, how come they are so debilitated when one planet - their homeworld - becomes infested? A civilization that advanced should not care about a single planet - they should have the technology to easily relocate their people to another world. The Protoss, in particular, have the Warp technology, perhaps the most convenient means of relocation. Why did they only have a Warp Gate leading to Shakuras? Why didn't they have one leading to the apparently hundreds of other worlds they've conquered? Also, the Protoss civilization is apparently much older than the Zerg (Protoss were engineered first by the Xel'naga). So shouldn't the Protoss military might be categorically superior to the Zerg as it has had more time to develop? How are flying bugs ever supposed to defeat a fleet of ships that apparently can wipe out life on entire planets? the Protoss warp gates could have taken them to hundreds of planets as for why they so ardently defended Aiur... cause there dumb, Aiur meant more to them then there lives If you actually played SC1, when the protoss were shown "hey, DTs kill cerebrates!" they still didn't listen, and not only that, decided to have a civil war with you because the idea that something non-protoss being superior was so abhorrent that even after the overmind had invaded they still wouldn't accept help from Dark Templars. Its not about stupidity its about loyalty. To give up on Auir meant giving up the Protoss identity of being the supreme race. They religiously couldn't do it. Let me put it this way, if something came charging at my girlfriend, I'd do anything to stop it even if it means getting in front of whatever it is and getting straight to the chest. Because I love her, much like the protoss loved their planet, their culture, their identity--and they were willing to die for it. It didn't matter if it was DT influence or Zerg invasion--the protoss identity must stand firm. exactly pure stupidity they refused to bend so tehy broke to use your example, imagine if a train was heading at your GF, right next to you was the emergency break button wich you could hit to stop the train but instead you jump in front of her and both of you die Depends, do I honestly and vehemently believe I'm superman? Then I will stand in front of the train. Do I know I'm just a lowly terran who has learned high school level physics? Then I'm pulling the break. But if I was smart person I would have asked my girlfriend not to walk on the train tracks to begin with especially when trains are on it. Besides, its only stupidity because it didn't work. Going kamikazi with your strongest weapon would have looked stupid if it didn't kill the overmind. So would have believing that two random crystals would somehow make a planet wide nuke strong enough to stop an army that the best of auir couldn't stop. Now I do think what they did was stupid and ignorant--but that's because I have hindsight on my side. The protoss regularly burn planets. Of course they thought they could fight off some oversized dogs and for legged house sized bugs. Them being wrong doesn't mean they didn't have a good reason for it. and what good reason prompted them to take there fleet, leave Aiur (while it was under attack) to go arrest Tassadar in order to execute him? Other than the idea that the Dark templar were right all along and the millions they butchered during their aeon of strife was a waste of men and resources and that they shouldn't have gone against that fringe belief system at all--other then that, nothing really. what? did you reply to the right person? if you did i honestly cant understand what you were trying to say here
I thought I was responding to this
Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 06:49 Forikorder wrote:On March 22 2013 06:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 06:30 Forikorder wrote:On March 22 2013 06:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 06:09 Forikorder wrote:On March 22 2013 05:52 starimk wrote:On March 22 2013 04:58 Skirmjan wrote:On March 22 2013 03:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 22 2013 02:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
Um... Shakuras has several thousand years of civilization on top of it from a race of beings known as the dark templar. I refuse to believe that after they migrated to Shakuras that they kind of just hung out not reproducing and making cities at their leisure. And no, I refuse to believe an advanced race that has had a shit tonne of time to populate a planet would be so small in number that they would fit in one random temple.
I also don't understand why raynor collecting artifacts is somehow more cheesy than zeratul collecting crystals.
I also find it dishonest of you to think a xelnaga artifact killing bunches of zerg on char (not all) is more cheesy than a planet wide nuke on Shakuras from a xel naga temple.
Both are equal to each other. And if the protoss missions spanned 30 missions you would have hated the temple nuke as well. The fact of the matter is we were spared the cheesy plots of BW and SC1 because we had such little content from it. There were less than 10 protoss missions in BW, half of it was zeratul gathering people, 2-3 of it was for collecting artifacts, and then a final mission. The reason you did not get annoyed is because there wasn't much story there. 1) Dark Templar only lived on Shakuras for about 500 years before BW. 2) There weren't a ton of Dark Templar that were exiled. 3) Not all Dark Templar settled on Shakuras. 4) Protoss reproduce far more slowly than humans. 5) The Dark Templar struggled to adapt to Shakuras, since they naturally require sunlight, which leads us to the logical conclusion that population growth was stunted. 6) Massive amounts of Protoss were killed (at least 70% of the population) during the invasion of Aiur, so they didn't add a huge amount to the existing population of Shakuras. 7) It's entirely plausible (and almost implausible to think otherwise) that the Shakuras population took heavy losses due to the Zerg invasion. Raynor's is far worse because 1) it takes up a massive chunk of the WoL campaign (taking all of two missions in BW) and 2) he just goes about randomly slaughtering Protoss to take their holy relics. The reason that the Artifact is far more cheesy is because it just happens to be a random artifact that can do exactly what they need it to do; kill Zerg (and ONLY Zerg), while at the same time de-infesting the one particular individual they want to de-infest, but then in HotS, it can act as some kind of psionic suppressor to harm Kerrigan that reacts to an obviously Terran "kill switch"-type mechanism. The temple is fairly lame because it's like, "Hey, let's just use this to blow up everything!", but the difference is that 1) it was a minor plot point in the least-liked campaign of SC1 and 2) it did a very simple thing; kill everything. The artifact is the central plot device of the entire WoL campaign, and it just so happens that it does the exact, incredibly specific thing that Raynor needs. Starcraft Manual . Over the course of only a few hundred years, the Protoss conquered hundreds of worlds within their corner of the galaxy, and spread the fruits of their great civilization to many of the more advanced races that they encountered. All in all, the Protoss inadvertently succeeded in reclaiming an eighth of the worlds once presided over by the Xel’Naga. This feat requires a population in billions, and the protoss were heavily centered/invested on Aiur, so a good % of their population would've resided there, as sc2wikia confirms: Aiur was populated by billions of protoss before its fall.[6] Sc2wikia also confirms your estimates on the protoss losses on Aiur: It was a pyrrhic victory at best. 70% of the population was dead. The planet was thoroughly infested[7] and much if the landscape ruined.[8] 30% of a single billion is obviously 300 millions protoss, and given there's a plural, there would be at least 600 millions protoss in that temple..... the losses suffered while fighting both zerg and a civil war on shakuras are not mentioned, they probably range between 5-70%, as it's impossible that the fighting on shakuras was harsher than the one of Aiur (it would have been mentioned, and it would be stupid to jump from the frying pan into the fire...) so with the most implausible estimates, there would be at least 180 millions protoss stuffed into a small temple, without taking the nerazim into consideration About the dark templar numbers, stuff gets trickier, the only information we have is that of the protoss tribes Ara,Akilae,Shelak,Sargas, Auriga and Furinax (the major ones) the Nerazim drew heavily on Sargas, although coming from many others as well(probably weren't the majority in Sargas tho) so.... perhaps a 5% of the population? So if the Protoss apparently have such an extensive empire according to the Starcraft Manual, how come they are so debilitated when one planet - their homeworld - becomes infested? A civilization that advanced should not care about a single planet - they should have the technology to easily relocate their people to another world. The Protoss, in particular, have the Warp technology, perhaps the most convenient means of relocation. Why did they only have a Warp Gate leading to Shakuras? Why didn't they have one leading to the apparently hundreds of other worlds they've conquered? Also, the Protoss civilization is apparently much older than the Zerg (Protoss were engineered first by the Xel'naga). So shouldn't the Protoss military might be categorically superior to the Zerg as it has had more time to develop? How are flying bugs ever supposed to defeat a fleet of ships that apparently can wipe out life on entire planets? the Protoss warp gates could have taken them to hundreds of planets as for why they so ardently defended Aiur... cause there dumb, Aiur meant more to them then there lives If you actually played SC1, when the protoss were shown "hey, DTs kill cerebrates!" they still didn't listen, and not only that, decided to have a civil war with you because the idea that something non-protoss being superior was so abhorrent that even after the overmind had invaded they still wouldn't accept help from Dark Templars. Its not about stupidity its about loyalty. To give up on Auir meant giving up the Protoss identity of being the supreme race. They religiously couldn't do it. Let me put it this way, if something came charging at my girlfriend, I'd do anything to stop it even if it means getting in front of whatever it is and getting straight to the chest. Because I love her, much like the protoss loved their planet, their culture, their identity--and they were willing to die for it. It didn't matter if it was DT influence or Zerg invasion--the protoss identity must stand firm. exactly pure stupidity they refused to bend so tehy broke to use your example, imagine if a train was heading at your GF, right next to you was the emergency break button wich you could hit to stop the train but instead you jump in front of her and both of you die Depends, do I honestly and vehemently believe I'm superman? Then I will stand in front of the train. Do I know I'm just a lowly terran who has learned high school level physics? Then I'm pulling the break. But if I was smart person I would have asked my girlfriend not to walk on the train tracks to begin with especially when trains are on it. Besides, its only stupidity because it didn't work. Going kamikazi with your strongest weapon would have looked stupid if it didn't kill the overmind. So would have believing that two random crystals would somehow make a planet wide nuke strong enough to stop an army that the best of auir couldn't stop. Now I do think what they did was stupid and ignorant--but that's because I have hindsight on my side. The protoss regularly burn planets. Of course they thought they could fight off some oversized dogs and for legged house sized bugs. Them being wrong doesn't mean they didn't have a good reason for it. and what good reason prompted them to take there fleet, leave Aiur (while it was under attack) to go arrest Tassadar in order to execute him?
I was where I stated that it makes sense and its not stupid that a race that can kill planets would not want to listen to variant opinions on the discussion of warfare. But then you asked why they went off to chase after Tassadar--who was trying to tell them to trust Dark Templars. Even though the last time dark templars showed up millions and probably billions of protoss died having their little religious war.
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I was where I stated that it makes sense and its not stupid that a race that can kill planets would not want to listen to variant opinions on the discussion of warfare. But then you asked why they went off to chase after Tassadar--who was trying to tell them to trust Dark Templars. Even though the last time dark templars showed up millions and probably billions of protoss died having their little religious war.
they only learned Tassadar was working with the Dark Templar after they went after him, they went after Tassadar because he refused to glass Tarsonis and other Terran worlds and only then learned he was working with the Dark Templar
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I voted the campaign as average...not to great but not too terrible either. As usual there's people on both sides exaggerating the badness/goodness of the story when the truth is somewhere in the middle. Take the example of the "good post" in the OP. Why doesn't Kerrigan just waltz into Korhal and kill that random guy Mengsk without seeking more power? Srsly? Mengsk the emperor of the Terran Dominion which is the strongest its ever been and owns a whole system of fortified planets. Human Kerrigan and one leviathan is enough to take on the whole dominion now? Is that A+ posting?
I did have my own issues, major being the Duran storyline had an extremely shitty conclusion considering he was my fav char from the first games. Hopefully there's some mention of him in the next game. And Stukov coming back was stupid as hell. But even with these issues the game still kept me engaged and wanting to see what happens next. And the starcraft lore/universe is still more interesting that 99% of anything else out there video game wise. This new phenomenon on harping and complaining about every single issue in a videogame is extremely annoying with big name games.
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On March 22 2013 08:06 antelope591 wrote:
I voted the campaign as average...not to great but not too terrible either. As usual there's people on both sides exaggerating the badness/goodness of the story when the truth is somewhere in the middle. Take the example of the "good post" in the OP. Why doesn't Kerrigan just waltz into Korhal and kill that random guy Mengsk without seeking more power? Srsly? Mengsk the emperor of the Terran Dominion which is the strongest its ever been and owns a whole system of fortified planets. Human Kerrigan and one leviathan is enough to take on the whole dominion now? Is that A+ posting?
I did have my own issues, major being the Duran storyline had an extremely shitty conclusion considering he was my fav char from the first games. Hopefully there's some mention of him in the next game. And Stukov coming back was stupid as hell. But even with these issues the game still kept me engaged and wanting to see what happens next. And the starcraft lore/universe is still more interesting that 99% of anything else out there video game wise. This new phenomenon on harping and complaining about every single issue in a videogame is extremely annoying with big name games.
Its perfectly reasonable to assume that mengsk is strong. But don't tell us that, show us that. She spent half the game telling us "I need to be stronger" but she never actually did anything. She attack mengst troops twice before leaving for zerus. And she beat them handily both times. Why would we ever feel like shes weak when the only time she's shown as weak was when her friend died.
EDIT: I personally enjoyed the campaign a lot. It has a lot of problems, but they weren't any stranger than BW's problems or WC3's problems. I would say that the mission designs (although Kerrigan was too strong) were actually really good. Not a lot of "sit here for 10 minutes and then a-move" I pretty much moved out with Kerrigan and her starting troops early to start poking perimeters and intercepting roaming troops. The cut scenes gorgeous, the evolution missions (although long) actually allowed you to play with new units without forcing them on you in the campaign. So no "this is the mission where we need Mutalisks" or "this is the mission where we need _____"
It was a fresh change to say "play with these units in their optimal roles" and if you wanted more, you could use them, but none of the missions were designed with them in mind.
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On March 22 2013 06:49 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 06:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 06:30 Forikorder wrote:On March 22 2013 06:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 06:09 Forikorder wrote:On March 22 2013 05:52 starimk wrote:On March 22 2013 04:58 Skirmjan wrote:On March 22 2013 03:38 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 22 2013 02:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 02:47 Stratos_speAr wrote:
[quote]
That's not evidence. that's you making shit up.
In the mission, Zeratul explicitly says for everyone to retreat into the temple. It even shows a Scout retreating to the temple in the damn cinematic.
The Protoss were almost completely wiped out by the Zerg in Episode III. The temple is large, and not all Protoss are on Shakuras. It's blatantly evident that they retreated to the temple. Um... Shakuras has several thousand years of civilization on top of it from a race of beings known as the dark templar. I refuse to believe that after they migrated to Shakuras that they kind of just hung out not reproducing and making cities at their leisure. And no, I refuse to believe an advanced race that has had a shit tonne of time to populate a planet would be so small in number that they would fit in one random temple. I also don't understand why raynor collecting artifacts is somehow more cheesy than zeratul collecting crystals. I also find it dishonest of you to think a xelnaga artifact killing bunches of zerg on char (not all) is more cheesy than a planet wide nuke on Shakuras from a xel naga temple. Both are equal to each other. And if the protoss missions spanned 30 missions you would have hated the temple nuke as well. The fact of the matter is we were spared the cheesy plots of BW and SC1 because we had such little content from it. There were less than 10 protoss missions in BW, half of it was zeratul gathering people, 2-3 of it was for collecting artifacts, and then a final mission. The reason you did not get annoyed is because there wasn't much story there. 1) Dark Templar only lived on Shakuras for about 500 years before BW. 2) There weren't a ton of Dark Templar that were exiled. 3) Not all Dark Templar settled on Shakuras. 4) Protoss reproduce far more slowly than humans. 5) The Dark Templar struggled to adapt to Shakuras, since they naturally require sunlight, which leads us to the logical conclusion that population growth was stunted. 6) Massive amounts of Protoss were killed (at least 70% of the population) during the invasion of Aiur, so they didn't add a huge amount to the existing population of Shakuras. 7) It's entirely plausible (and almost implausible to think otherwise) that the Shakuras population took heavy losses due to the Zerg invasion. Raynor's is far worse because 1) it takes up a massive chunk of the WoL campaign (taking all of two missions in BW) and 2) he just goes about randomly slaughtering Protoss to take their holy relics. The reason that the Artifact is far more cheesy is because it just happens to be a random artifact that can do exactly what they need it to do; kill Zerg (and ONLY Zerg), while at the same time de-infesting the one particular individual they want to de-infest, but then in HotS, it can act as some kind of psionic suppressor to harm Kerrigan that reacts to an obviously Terran "kill switch"-type mechanism. The temple is fairly lame because it's like, "Hey, let's just use this to blow up everything!", but the difference is that 1) it was a minor plot point in the least-liked campaign of SC1 and 2) it did a very simple thing; kill everything. The artifact is the central plot device of the entire WoL campaign, and it just so happens that it does the exact, incredibly specific thing that Raynor needs. Starcraft Manual . Over the course of only a few hundred years, the Protoss conquered hundreds of worlds within their corner of the galaxy, and spread the fruits of their great civilization to many of the more advanced races that they encountered. All in all, the Protoss inadvertently succeeded in reclaiming an eighth of the worlds once presided over by the Xel’Naga. This feat requires a population in billions, and the protoss were heavily centered/invested on Aiur, so a good % of their population would've resided there, as sc2wikia confirms: Aiur was populated by billions of protoss before its fall.[6] Sc2wikia also confirms your estimates on the protoss losses on Aiur: It was a pyrrhic victory at best. 70% of the population was dead. The planet was thoroughly infested[7] and much if the landscape ruined.[8] 30% of a single billion is obviously 300 millions protoss, and given there's a plural, there would be at least 600 millions protoss in that temple..... the losses suffered while fighting both zerg and a civil war on shakuras are not mentioned, they probably range between 5-70%, as it's impossible that the fighting on shakuras was harsher than the one of Aiur (it would have been mentioned, and it would be stupid to jump from the frying pan into the fire...) so with the most implausible estimates, there would be at least 180 millions protoss stuffed into a small temple, without taking the nerazim into consideration About the dark templar numbers, stuff gets trickier, the only information we have is that of the protoss tribes Ara,Akilae,Shelak,Sargas, Auriga and Furinax (the major ones) the Nerazim drew heavily on Sargas, although coming from many others as well(probably weren't the majority in Sargas tho) so.... perhaps a 5% of the population? So if the Protoss apparently have such an extensive empire according to the Starcraft Manual, how come they are so debilitated when one planet - their homeworld - becomes infested? A civilization that advanced should not care about a single planet - they should have the technology to easily relocate their people to another world. The Protoss, in particular, have the Warp technology, perhaps the most convenient means of relocation. Why did they only have a Warp Gate leading to Shakuras? Why didn't they have one leading to the apparently hundreds of other worlds they've conquered? Also, the Protoss civilization is apparently much older than the Zerg (Protoss were engineered first by the Xel'naga). So shouldn't the Protoss military might be categorically superior to the Zerg as it has had more time to develop? How are flying bugs ever supposed to defeat a fleet of ships that apparently can wipe out life on entire planets? the Protoss warp gates could have taken them to hundreds of planets as for why they so ardently defended Aiur... cause there dumb, Aiur meant more to them then there lives If you actually played SC1, when the protoss were shown "hey, DTs kill cerebrates!" they still didn't listen, and not only that, decided to have a civil war with you because the idea that something non-protoss being superior was so abhorrent that even after the overmind had invaded they still wouldn't accept help from Dark Templars. Its not about stupidity its about loyalty. To give up on Auir meant giving up the Protoss identity of being the supreme race. They religiously couldn't do it. Let me put it this way, if something came charging at my girlfriend, I'd do anything to stop it even if it means getting in front of whatever it is and getting straight to the chest. Because I love her, much like the protoss loved their planet, their culture, their identity--and they were willing to die for it. It didn't matter if it was DT influence or Zerg invasion--the protoss identity must stand firm. exactly pure stupidity they refused to bend so tehy broke to use your example, imagine if a train was heading at your GF, right next to you was the emergency break button wich you could hit to stop the train but instead you jump in front of her and both of you die Depends, do I honestly and vehemently believe I'm superman? Then I will stand in front of the train. Do I know I'm just a lowly terran who has learned high school level physics? Then I'm pulling the break. But if I was smart person I would have asked my girlfriend not to walk on the train tracks to begin with especially when trains are on it. Besides, its only stupidity because it didn't work. Going kamikazi with your strongest weapon would have looked stupid if it didn't kill the overmind. So would have believing that two random crystals would somehow make a planet wide nuke strong enough to stop an army that the best of auir couldn't stop. Now I do think what they did was stupid and ignorant--but that's because I have hindsight on my side. The protoss regularly burn planets. Of course they thought they could fight off some oversized dogs and for legged house sized bugs. Them being wrong doesn't mean they didn't have a good reason for it. and what good reason prompted them to take there fleet, leave Aiur (while it was under attack) to go arrest Tassadar in order to execute him?
Pretty sure that the campaign explains that the Conclave was arrogant enough to think that the Zerg weren't a real threat and that they should go after Tassadar.
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On March 22 2013 08:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 08:06 antelope591 wrote:
I voted the campaign as average...not to great but not too terrible either. As usual there's people on both sides exaggerating the badness/goodness of the story when the truth is somewhere in the middle. Take the example of the "good post" in the OP. Why doesn't Kerrigan just waltz into Korhal and kill that random guy Mengsk without seeking more power? Srsly? Mengsk the emperor of the Terran Dominion which is the strongest its ever been and owns a whole system of fortified planets. Human Kerrigan and one leviathan is enough to take on the whole dominion now? Is that A+ posting?
I did have my own issues, major being the Duran storyline had an extremely shitty conclusion considering he was my fav char from the first games. Hopefully there's some mention of him in the next game. And Stukov coming back was stupid as hell. But even with these issues the game still kept me engaged and wanting to see what happens next. And the starcraft lore/universe is still more interesting that 99% of anything else out there video game wise. This new phenomenon on harping and complaining about every single issue in a videogame is extremely annoying with big name games. Its perfectly reasonable to assume that mengsk is strong. But don't tell us that, show us that. She spent half the game telling us "I need to be stronger" but she never actually did anything. She attack mengst troops twice before leaving for zerus. And she beat them handily both times. Why would we ever feel like shes weak when the only time she's shown as weak was when her friend died.
What you do during player controlled missions is a terrible way to assess strength. The same way you could say your little group of rag tag Terrans in WoL went to Char and crushed/held off the entire swarm on the way to reverting Kerrigan back to human form. Does that mean that the Zerg were really weak as hell the whole time and can't hold off even a small Terran fleet? Of course your player controlled character is gonna win every battle otherwise you're not gonna make much progress through a campaign.
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On March 22 2013 08:03 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +I was where I stated that it makes sense and its not stupid that a race that can kill planets would not want to listen to variant opinions on the discussion of warfare. But then you asked why they went off to chase after Tassadar--who was trying to tell them to trust Dark Templars. Even though the last time dark templars showed up millions and probably billions of protoss died having their little religious war. they only learned Tassadar was working with the Dark Templar after they went after him, they went after Tassadar because he refused to glass Tarsonis and other Terran worlds and only then learned he was working with the Dark Templar
I honestly thought to myself that I should check a wiki to see if you were right or not--but I've decided to replay the sc1 campaign instead 
I'll correct you/apologize for my mistake once I get that far in the campaign 
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On March 22 2013 08:42 antelope591 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 08:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 08:06 antelope591 wrote:
I voted the campaign as average...not to great but not too terrible either. As usual there's people on both sides exaggerating the badness/goodness of the story when the truth is somewhere in the middle. Take the example of the "good post" in the OP. Why doesn't Kerrigan just waltz into Korhal and kill that random guy Mengsk without seeking more power? Srsly? Mengsk the emperor of the Terran Dominion which is the strongest its ever been and owns a whole system of fortified planets. Human Kerrigan and one leviathan is enough to take on the whole dominion now? Is that A+ posting?
I did have my own issues, major being the Duran storyline had an extremely shitty conclusion considering he was my fav char from the first games. Hopefully there's some mention of him in the next game. And Stukov coming back was stupid as hell. But even with these issues the game still kept me engaged and wanting to see what happens next. And the starcraft lore/universe is still more interesting that 99% of anything else out there video game wise. This new phenomenon on harping and complaining about every single issue in a videogame is extremely annoying with big name games. Its perfectly reasonable to assume that mengsk is strong. But don't tell us that, show us that. She spent half the game telling us "I need to be stronger" but she never actually did anything. She attack mengst troops twice before leaving for zerus. And she beat them handily both times. Why would we ever feel like shes weak when the only time she's shown as weak was when her friend died. What you do during player controlled missions is a terrible way to assess strength. The same way you could say your little group of rag tag Terrans in WoL went to Char and crushed/held off the entire swarm on the way to reverting Kerrigan back to human form. Does that mean that the Zerg were really weak as hell the whole time and can't hold off even a small Terran fleet? Of course your player controlled character is gonna win every battle otherwise you're not gonna make much progress through a campaign.
In sc1
Raynor kills an infested cc => gets imprisoned for killing civilians
Raynor needs to be saved by Mengsk
Dominion forces surrounds Raynor and friends => have to use zerg to break out
Kerrigan turtles against Zerg and Protoss => gets left behind
End of terran campaign is humanity is in shatters, allies are lost, no hope available. But at least Protoss can burn planets and are obviously stronger than zerg.
Zerg missions have them find out a way to beat protoss => auir falls.
Both Protoss and Terran have been beaten by zerg.
Protoss missions:
You (as toss) take antiga, then go off to protect another sector => cut scene to antiga getting retaken and zeratul dying.
You then kill a cerebrate => only to realize that they can't be killed.
You find out how to kill them (DTs) => only to find out old hatreds won't allow them to be used
You try to unite the tribes => failure, you now have to depend on Jim raynor's help instead.
You get to the last mission. No Terran support, no protoss support, just a marine who lost his lover and a templar made an outcast of his people. You make a hail mary and kamikazi into the overmind.
So no--it is very much possible to show you losing despite winning everything.
BW
Protoss wins a phyrric victory of "yay we're not dead, lets start from scratch"
Terran has to gain an overmind in order to have a chance agaisnt zerg.
And then the final stretch of the game it turns out they were all being manipulated by Kerrigan the whole time. All the victories before then were fake, all part of the bad guy's plan to win. And she did, the bad guys won.
------------------------------
Hell! Even in WoL you had to spend the first few char missions just gathering the troops together since they were scattered, beaten, and defeated. Even a mission or two was just "oh shit, Kerrigan is here, save who we can do our best"
Lots of the side quests in each mission in WoL was "such and such are trapped, save them"
You had to slowly gather your army.
That sense of danger is nowhere in HotS.
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so i was trying to find any kind of actual differences in kerrigans appearance between WOL and her new form after emerging from the zerus chrysalis, is it only the purple effects on her face? or am i missing any other obvious details cuz she looks almost identical for being technically much stronger then before
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On March 22 2013 10:54 FinestHour wrote:
so i was trying to find any kind of actual differences in kerrigans appearance between WOL and her new form after emerging from the zerus chrysalis, is it only the purple effects on her face? or am i missing any other obvious details cuz she looks almost identical for being technically much stronger then before
strength isnt all about looks...\
her wing blades got a upgrade i think
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![[image loading]](http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/image/976)
Apologizes if that has been posted here before.
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Raynor: "Damn kerrigan you look banging in that ghost outfit"
Kerrigan: "Yeah. I'm a sexy independent woman nobody can stop me! Hey Raynor I wuvvles you."
Raynor: "Sweet babe, so when can we hook up?"
Kerrigan: "Right after I get over my daddy issues by butchering billions of humans because my surrogate daddy abandoned me to the zerg, you cool with that?"
Raynor: "Yeah, I'll help you with that so we can hook up after k."
Zeratul: "Kerrigan wtf calm down you crazy bitch here some visions of power should calm you down for a bit. Jesus christ."
Raynor: "What the fuck kerrigan what happened to the ghost outfit and whats up with the tentacles. You know I'm more into the ghost in a shell look rather than this shit."
Kerrigan: "Its not you its me, its just these zerg queens were here for me when you weren't im so sorry let's go kill some humans"
Raynor: "GG friendzoned whatever, maybe I still got a shot she's permanently naked now so thats a plus I guess. Lets murder some more people just doing their jobs they probably worship the xel'naga or something evil."
Kerrigan: "Sweet Mengsk is dead im off now Raynor later bro."
Raynor: "Wow, shoulda gone for Nova, could tell she was totally into me."
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On March 22 2013 11:07 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 10:54 FinestHour wrote:
so i was trying to find any kind of actual differences in kerrigans appearance between WOL and her new form after emerging from the zerus chrysalis, is it only the purple effects on her face? or am i missing any other obvious details cuz she looks almost identical for being technically much stronger then before strength isnt all about looks...\ her wing blades got a upgrade i think
lol i cant even tell the difference fuck
nerfnow is so good
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On March 22 2013 08:55 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 08:42 antelope591 wrote:On March 22 2013 08:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:On March 22 2013 08:06 antelope591 wrote:
I voted the campaign as average...not to great but not too terrible either. As usual there's people on both sides exaggerating the badness/goodness of the story when the truth is somewhere in the middle. Take the example of the "good post" in the OP. Why doesn't Kerrigan just waltz into Korhal and kill that random guy Mengsk without seeking more power? Srsly? Mengsk the emperor of the Terran Dominion which is the strongest its ever been and owns a whole system of fortified planets. Human Kerrigan and one leviathan is enough to take on the whole dominion now? Is that A+ posting?
I did have my own issues, major being the Duran storyline had an extremely shitty conclusion considering he was my fav char from the first games. Hopefully there's some mention of him in the next game. And Stukov coming back was stupid as hell. But even with these issues the game still kept me engaged and wanting to see what happens next. And the starcraft lore/universe is still more interesting that 99% of anything else out there video game wise. This new phenomenon on harping and complaining about every single issue in a videogame is extremely annoying with big name games. Its perfectly reasonable to assume that mengsk is strong. But don't tell us that, show us that. She spent half the game telling us "I need to be stronger" but she never actually did anything. She attack mengst troops twice before leaving for zerus. And she beat them handily both times. Why would we ever feel like shes weak when the only time she's shown as weak was when her friend died. What you do during player controlled missions is a terrible way to assess strength. The same way you could say your little group of rag tag Terrans in WoL went to Char and crushed/held off the entire swarm on the way to reverting Kerrigan back to human form. Does that mean that the Zerg were really weak as hell the whole time and can't hold off even a small Terran fleet? Of course your player controlled character is gonna win every battle otherwise you're not gonna make much progress through a campaign. WORDSWORDSWORDS You (as toss) take antiga, then go off to protect another sector => cut scene to antiga getting retaken and zeratul dying. WORDSWORDSWORDS
Sorry to nitpick, but it was Antioch, not antiga, and it was Fenix, not zeratul. I'm a stickler for details, but this detracts nothing from the rest of your post, I like the point you were making and I agree.
@zbedlam: I like you.
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EDIT: Double post, guess I've got BRAIN PROBLEMS!
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What truly bothers me is the utter lack of criteria of the kids for whom the story is supposedly tailored to.
I mean, it used to be that the best media forms made for, ok, "younger" folks was the one that didn't actually desperately try to aim for that particular demographic but rather make a product of universal quality. I mean, I was a kid in 80's and 90's and yes, my criteria were lower, but I could still see the difference between something that was actually really good and something kinda crappy (even though that yes, I would still watch and enjoy the crappy stuff too). And yes, I enjoyed games like Diablo and SC1, I thought they had amazing cutscenes and really enjoyable stories and if anything I understood those games didn't treat you like an idiot.
So I must say that sorry, I apologize, but SC2 (as far as the storyline and its presentation goes) *does* treat you like an idiot. Everything is spelled out and often repeated as if the player has the attention span of a goldfish and would forget who and what is being shown to him unless being constantly reminded of it. There's unnecessary eye candy galore, from Kerrigan's bodysuit and thong to gratuitous Michael Bay explosions and choreographed fight scenes that just jump out of nowhere and do nothing for the story except for amusing the player so he wouldn't get bored by the expository dialogue that immediately follows it. And the worst culprit of course being total disrespect for the characters of the original game whose appearances are changed, whose personalities are rewritten, whose backstories are retconned, and who are all too often resurrected only to serve as a token "old character cameo" even though the role they have is either pointless or does not suit the character at all. This is not a case of stuff being bad because the creative team isn't good, this is stuff being bad BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN DELIBERATELY AND METICULOUSLY MADE SO - in another words, you are being served this crap because Blizzard story team thinks this is the only type of content you are able to enjoy.
So, ok, SC2 is apparently not tailored for me since I am over 18. But to everyone for whom this story is supposedly tailored... man, you should be insulted. I'm not saying you should not be a fan of this new Starcraft, or that you shouldn't be enjoying the lore or even the new setting, but geez, at least recognize when somebody is treating you like you're an idiot. Acknowledge that creative directors show an amazing disregard for your intelligence and that YOU DESERVE SOMETHING BETTER. Stop settling for this mediocrity because that's the best you can hope for in the future - had the backlash for what WoL story did to Starcraft been greater I'm sure HotS would have been at least a tiny fraction better. Now we have what we have, and the chances of the final part actually being good (or at least acceptable) have never been lower.
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On March 22 2013 19:25 baba44713 wrote:
This is not a case of stuff being bad because the creative team isn't good, this is stuff being bad BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN DELIBERATELY AND METICULOUSLY MADE SO - in another words, you are being served this crap because Blizzard story team thinks this is the only type of content you are able to enjoy.
I totally agree with this. The bad things didn't happen because they made a mistake or just aren't good enough, they just chose to make it like this (as evident from the chris metzen interview where he proclaims that starcraft is "just about a boy and girl").
On one hand this probably means they're still capable of making quality games if they chose to, but in all likeliness they will keep going in the same direction with LotV, taking the story and presentation in a totally different direction than most sc1/bw fans apparantly want.
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EPT
