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On February 12 2013 01:35 Wpgstevo wrote:
Its funny to me that some devil's advocates here are lamenting the desire of posters in this thread to have Daisuki banned for life.
News flash: The posters on TL who don't have the power to enforce a ban are aware of this fact.
What they are saying is that they hope the tournament organizers ban him. Since this community is comprised of pros and fans alike, it doesn't seem unreasonable to express that desire in this thread. Obviously they don't have the power to enforce, but they know that already.
Redemption and/or forgiveness are down the line, not something to discuss before he even has occasion to uninstall the hacks...
And I guess you figure that when we sentence someone to imprisonment, we should just not bother talking about their parole eligibility until X amount of years after the crime, right? Wrong. There's a reason we say "sentenced to 25 years with no possibility of parole until Y years." Everything should be sorted immediately. Daisuki not hacking in tournaments should mitigate his sentence somewhat, since he didn't strictly speaking conspire to acquire money by hacking, which would be a lot worse than what he did do. Not that what he did isn't bad, mind you, but it's less bad than hacking in a tournament.
The real problem I have wit this thread is that people are, once again, opting for the most extreme punishments available to them by default. There should be a code of conduct with reasonable punitive measures, not maximum punishment every time anyone does anything bad. This goes for all those PR incidents with Destiny, Stephano, etc, as well. The punishment needs to fit the crime. We don't sentence people to life in prison for stealing, for example.
I'd say ban his accounts, shun him from TL, and basically not give him a platform for awhile. I don't think it's necessary to ban him from competing in offline tournaments. But from online tournaments? One year ban at minimum.
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Cheating in ladder is bad obv. but it's kind of hypocrite considering other cheating that has happened over the years and nobody spoke about it. Teams playing with wrong players (using another alias) in clanwars, several people in the same room with the player watching him play and pointing out things he missed in minimap + "coaching" him during play etc. Of course, it's impossible to prove but everyone knows it was quite common. I'm kind of puzzled why this hasn't been touched ever in sotg or itg or somewhere. It's easier to crusify these blatant cheaters using hacks of course.
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On February 12 2013 00:54 moskonia wrote:
Cheating on the Ladder is horrible, but it doesn't make him a "scum", seriously he confessed and said he will not do it again so I think some of you guys are too harsh. I am not saying he should go unpunished, but if he never cheated on tournaments then he should not get more than 6 months ban imo (and even that is kinda a lot).
Combatex said he would stop being a dick. That certainly didn't stop him. I can say I'll stop a lot of things, but that's no reason to go easy on me.
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On February 12 2013 01:43 Zenbrez wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 00:54 moskonia wrote:
Cheating on the Ladder is horrible, but it doesn't make him a "scum", seriously he confessed and said he will not do it again so I think some of you guys are too harsh. I am not saying he should go unpunished, but if he never cheated on tournaments then he should not get more than 6 months ban imo (and even that is kinda a lot). Combatex said he would stop being a dick. That certainly didn't stop him. I can say I'll stop a lot of things, but that's no reason to go easy on me.
Umm. Just because CombatEX wasted his second chances doesn't mean that second chances are a bad idea. It means that they're not always going to be used properly.
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On February 12 2013 01:40 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 01:35 Wpgstevo wrote:
Its funny to me that some devil's advocates here are lamenting the desire of posters in this thread to have Daisuki banned for life.
News flash: The posters on TL who don't have the power to enforce a ban are aware of this fact.
What they are saying is that they hope the tournament organizers ban him. Since this community is comprised of pros and fans alike, it doesn't seem unreasonable to express that desire in this thread. Obviously they don't have the power to enforce, but they know that already.
Redemption and/or forgiveness are down the line, not something to discuss before he even has occasion to uninstall the hacks...
And I guess you figure that when we sentence someone to imprisonment, we should just not bother talking about their parole eligibility until X amount of years after the crime, right? Wrong. There's a reason we say "sentenced to 25 years with no possibility of parole until Y years." Everything should be sorted immediately. Daisuki not hacking in tournaments should mitigate his sentence somewhat, since he didn't strictly speaking conspire to acquire money by hacking, which would be a lot worse than what he did do. Not that what he did isn't bad, mind you, but it's less bad than hacking in a tournament. The real problem I have wit this thread is that people are, once again, opting for the most extreme punishments available to them by default. There should be a code of conduct with reasonable punitive measures, not maximum punishment every time anyone does anything bad. This goes for all those PR incidents with Destiny, Stephano, etc, as well. The punishment needs to fit the crime. We don't sentence people to life in prison for stealing, for example. I'd say ban his accounts, shun him from TL, and basically not give him a platform for awhile. I don't think it's necessary to ban him from competing in offline tournaments. But from online tournaments? One year ban at minimum.
And how exactly would this ban from tournaments be enforced?
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On February 12 2013 01:43 Zenbrez wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 00:54 moskonia wrote:
Cheating on the Ladder is horrible, but it doesn't make him a "scum", seriously he confessed and said he will not do it again so I think some of you guys are too harsh. I am not saying he should go unpunished, but if he never cheated on tournaments then he should not get more than 6 months ban imo (and even that is kinda a lot). Combatex said he would stop being a dick. That certainly didn't stop him. I can say I'll stop a lot of things, but that's no reason to go easy on me.
That isn't even comparable. Combaex got a second chance. Even two and three, maybe more. This is a first time offense. Don't be so quick in judging. Not everyone change, but far from everyone never change.
On February 12 2013 01:46 thekaas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 01:40 Shiori wrote:On February 12 2013 01:35 Wpgstevo wrote:
Its funny to me that some devil's advocates here are lamenting the desire of posters in this thread to have Daisuki banned for life.
News flash: The posters on TL who don't have the power to enforce a ban are aware of this fact.
What they are saying is that they hope the tournament organizers ban him. Since this community is comprised of pros and fans alike, it doesn't seem unreasonable to express that desire in this thread. Obviously they don't have the power to enforce, but they know that already.
Redemption and/or forgiveness are down the line, not something to discuss before he even has occasion to uninstall the hacks...
And I guess you figure that when we sentence someone to imprisonment, we should just not bother talking about their parole eligibility until X amount of years after the crime, right? Wrong. There's a reason we say "sentenced to 25 years with no possibility of parole until Y years." Everything should be sorted immediately. Daisuki not hacking in tournaments should mitigate his sentence somewhat, since he didn't strictly speaking conspire to acquire money by hacking, which would be a lot worse than what he did do. Not that what he did isn't bad, mind you, but it's less bad than hacking in a tournament. The real problem I have wit this thread is that people are, once again, opting for the most extreme punishments available to them by default. There should be a code of conduct with reasonable punitive measures, not maximum punishment every time anyone does anything bad. This goes for all those PR incidents with Destiny, Stephano, etc, as well. The punishment needs to fit the crime. We don't sentence people to life in prison for stealing, for example. I'd say ban his accounts, shun him from TL, and basically not give him a platform for awhile. I don't think it's necessary to ban him from competing in offline tournaments. But from online tournaments? One year ban at minimum. And how exactly would this ban from tournaments be enforced?
They won't really be. That is all up to the tournament. However I think that every tournament with some statues will listen to the community in this and at least wait for things to calm down before they let him in to a tournament again. The backlash from the community should be enough.
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i'm loling at the srs bsns off topic nerd debate going down, i should have known that was the most likely thing to find 39 pages deep on an obvious mh thread with little left to confirm xD enjoy mighty combat, nerdz
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Lol @ people calling for a permaban. Hope you guys never get called for jury duty. And I'd hope you won't have the same attitude towards your kids. Excessive punishment is not effective.
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On February 12 2013 01:48 JackDragon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 01:43 Zenbrez wrote:On February 12 2013 00:54 moskonia wrote:
Cheating on the Ladder is horrible, but it doesn't make him a "scum", seriously he confessed and said he will not do it again so I think some of you guys are too harsh. I am not saying he should go unpunished, but if he never cheated on tournaments then he should not get more than 6 months ban imo (and even that is kinda a lot). Combatex said he would stop being a dick. That certainly didn't stop him. I can say I'll stop a lot of things, but that's no reason to go easy on me. That isn't even comparable. Combaex got a second chance. Even two and three, maybe more. This is a first time offense. Don't be so quick in judging. Not everyone change, but far from everyone never change. Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 01:46 thekaas wrote:On February 12 2013 01:40 Shiori wrote:On February 12 2013 01:35 Wpgstevo wrote:
Its funny to me that some devil's advocates here are lamenting the desire of posters in this thread to have Daisuki banned for life.
News flash: The posters on TL who don't have the power to enforce a ban are aware of this fact.
What they are saying is that they hope the tournament organizers ban him. Since this community is comprised of pros and fans alike, it doesn't seem unreasonable to express that desire in this thread. Obviously they don't have the power to enforce, but they know that already.
Redemption and/or forgiveness are down the line, not something to discuss before he even has occasion to uninstall the hacks...
And I guess you figure that when we sentence someone to imprisonment, we should just not bother talking about their parole eligibility until X amount of years after the crime, right? Wrong. There's a reason we say "sentenced to 25 years with no possibility of parole until Y years." Everything should be sorted immediately. Daisuki not hacking in tournaments should mitigate his sentence somewhat, since he didn't strictly speaking conspire to acquire money by hacking, which would be a lot worse than what he did do. Not that what he did isn't bad, mind you, but it's less bad than hacking in a tournament. The real problem I have wit this thread is that people are, once again, opting for the most extreme punishments available to them by default. There should be a code of conduct with reasonable punitive measures, not maximum punishment every time anyone does anything bad. This goes for all those PR incidents with Destiny, Stephano, etc, as well. The punishment needs to fit the crime. We don't sentence people to life in prison for stealing, for example. I'd say ban his accounts, shun him from TL, and basically not give him a platform for awhile. I don't think it's necessary to ban him from competing in offline tournaments. But from online tournaments? One year ban at minimum. And how exactly would this ban from tournaments be enforced? They won't really be. That is all up to the tournament. However I think that every tournament with some statues will listen to the community in this and at least wait for things to calm down before they let him in to a tournament again. The backlash from the community should be enough.
Imo, Daisuki, among everybody else that reads this forum, knows sees happens to people when they get caught cheating. That should be enough of a warning to anybody. If hes got the balls to do it anyway, he deserves nothing less than a ban. It's not like he didn't know it was wrong, if he thinks "well apparently I can get away with it so I'll just keep doing it", I can't see why anybody could side with him.
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On February 12 2013 01:46 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 01:43 Zenbrez wrote:On February 12 2013 00:54 moskonia wrote:
Cheating on the Ladder is horrible, but it doesn't make him a "scum", seriously he confessed and said he will not do it again so I think some of you guys are too harsh. I am not saying he should go unpunished, but if he never cheated on tournaments then he should not get more than 6 months ban imo (and even that is kinda a lot). Combatex said he would stop being a dick. That certainly didn't stop him. I can say I'll stop a lot of things, but that's no reason to go easy on me. Umm. Just because CombatEX wasted his second chances doesn't mean that second chances are a bad idea. It means that they're not always going to be used properly.
He was given multiple, just like many of the other hackers from BW/years passed. One second chance is fine, you shouldn't get another.
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Stop comparing this to imprisonment, they're completely different. There's your life at stake when you murder/steal or whatever. Here, you sabotage your sc2 career. You can move on with your life and get a real job, perhaps go back to school. It's not like Daisuki is a big name that many people will care about if he gets banned (objectively speaking, I'm not saying that to be rude).
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On February 12 2013 01:40 Shiori wrote:
And I guess you figure that when we sentence someone to imprisonment, we should just not bother talking about their parole eligibility until X amount of years after the crime, right? Wrong. There's a reason we say "sentenced to 25 years with no possibility of parole until Y years." Everything should be sorted immediately. Daisuki not hacking in tournaments should mitigate his sentence somewhat, since he didn't strictly speaking conspire to acquire money by hacking, which would be a lot worse than what he did do. Not that what he did isn't bad, mind you, but it's less bad than hacking in a tournament.
The real problem I have wit this thread is that people are, once again, opting for the most extreme punishments available to them by default. There should be a code of conduct with reasonable punitive measures, not maximum punishment every time anyone does anything bad. This goes for all those PR incidents with Destiny, Stephano, etc, as well. The punishment needs to fit the crime. We don't sentence people to life in prison for stealing, for example.
I'd say ban his accounts, shun him from TL, and basically not give him a platform for awhile. I don't think it's necessary to ban him from competing in offline tournaments. But from online tournaments? One year ban at minimum.
Who is issuing a sentence?
That is where this breaks down. There is no sentence. There is only the opinions of people who either want to see him, or don't.
Everything is not going to be "sorted out immediately" because no one here has the authority or ability to make such a sentence.
All people are expressing is that they don't want to see this player again due to his cheating. That's it.
If you feel differently, fine. Organizers will decide for themselves if they want him, based on whatever criteria they want.
But for me, and a number of others, cheating should be a ban from events - which ostensibly means simply that they want organizers to not invite him.
Stop acting like this is a trial or a sentencing hearing, its not. Its just a bunch of individuals expressing whether they want to see him again, or not.
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On February 11 2013 23:20 shadymmj wrote:
id bet savior would be allowed back in here to post though, if he wanted to
for what he did to BW, not a chance in hell. even if he were, he'd get flamed so much that it won't even be funny
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I remember seeing him at WCS and not knowing who he was, and since forgot about him ... but at the time i was thinking why is this not guy on a team? well ... i guess i see why. nice work remark.
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Canada16217 Posts
On February 11 2013 23:12 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 10:26 Shellshock1122 wrote:On February 11 2013 10:01 Malpractice.248 wrote:
My fav part is that he tweets, but doesnt show up here.
Furthermore, says OTHERS hack and cheat (making it okay for him to do so? I guess, in his mind?)
and on top of that, he claims to only have hacked for 2 weeks.
Once a cheater, always a cheater. He can't show up here anymore because he's already banned Why the hell would he get banned from the forum? That's a given that he shouldn't be allowed to be a pro/semipro-gamer anymore, but from TL as a video game forum?? Are you telling me that nobody on this forum ever used maphacks?
Have you ever heard of second chances? Everyone deserves one.
That punishment is way too harsh at most he shouldn't be allowed to participate in major tournaments for 6-12 months
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On February 12 2013 03:32 Wpgstevo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 01:40 Shiori wrote:
And I guess you figure that when we sentence someone to imprisonment, we should just not bother talking about their parole eligibility until X amount of years after the crime, right? Wrong. There's a reason we say "sentenced to 25 years with no possibility of parole until Y years." Everything should be sorted immediately. Daisuki not hacking in tournaments should mitigate his sentence somewhat, since he didn't strictly speaking conspire to acquire money by hacking, which would be a lot worse than what he did do. Not that what he did isn't bad, mind you, but it's less bad than hacking in a tournament.
The real problem I have wit this thread is that people are, once again, opting for the most extreme punishments available to them by default. There should be a code of conduct with reasonable punitive measures, not maximum punishment every time anyone does anything bad. This goes for all those PR incidents with Destiny, Stephano, etc, as well. The punishment needs to fit the crime. We don't sentence people to life in prison for stealing, for example.
I'd say ban his accounts, shun him from TL, and basically not give him a platform for awhile. I don't think it's necessary to ban him from competing in offline tournaments. But from online tournaments? One year ban at minimum. Who is issuing a sentence? That is where this breaks down. There is no sentence. There is only the opinions of people who either want to see him, or don't. Everything is not going to be "sorted out immediately" because no one here has the authority or ability to make such a sentence. All people are expressing is that they don't want to see this player again due to his cheating. That's it. If you feel differently, fine. Organizers will decide for themselves if they want him, based on whatever criteria they want. But for me, and a number of others, cheating should be a ban from events - which ostensibly means simply that they want organizers to not invite him. Stop acting like this is a trial or a sentencing hearing, its not. Its just a bunch of individuals expressing whether they want to see him again, or not.
It's understood that this isn't a trial, and of course tournaments can bow to community pressure and permanently ban him from competing. What we are saying is that this would be an awful system for resolving these kind of disputes, and is completely unbefitting of a professional sport. It would be a fundamentally bad thing for the eSports community, regardless of whether or not a permanent ban was warranted in this situation.
And again, it is worth pointing out that other players have done similar things and not faced such extreme punishment as is being proposed. If you can't rationally explain why this case is different then you can't reasonably expect a different punishment. If you think that TT1 should also be retroactively banned then I guess I can't fault you, but I'm more inclined to believe that the prevalent view that daisuki deserves a permaban is more of an emotional response. Frankly I kind of agree with daisukis sentiment that a lot of the anger is based on people's pent up frustration about the ladder system that is being unloaded onto him. After all, nobody with serious ladder anxiety wants to hear that cheating on ladder "isn't that big of a deal".
And to the black/white minded folks here who think defending daisuki from your irrational outrage is somehow giving him and other hackers license to cheat or minimizing what he did, please understand something: it's possible for both of you to be wrong. Being against chopping off the hands of thieves doesn't make me pro-stealing.
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It might not be the best system, but there is literally no alternative. So while it would be nice to have a governing body to make sure penalties for cheating are uniform, right now its up to the organizers.
In professional sports cheating is either a several year or lifetime ban. This is no different, other than the lack of a governing body to enforce. The infraction is the same. If you think cheating on ladder is okay, how about cheating in your peewee hockey team? Its just kids sports after all. Or how about the local chess club? Its not like big money is on the line.
Guess what, you cheat in my local chess club, you are gone for good. It doesn't matter why you did it or how big or small the impact is.
Professional sports have just as harsh or harsher punishments for this type of offense, pretending like several year or lifetime bans from sports don't exist is disingenuous.
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what, he STILL hacks even after all this?
Didn't he get banned, did he buy a new account already?
EDIT: he has more than one account, get it now.
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A known cheater should only be allowed to play in online tournaments, when he can record his playing via camera and send the footage to the tournament admins so they can guarantee 100% that he played straight up, if not he should get a loss and is out of that tournament. Offline there is a guarantee he should not be able to cheat. Also a 3 month ban or some punishment for a certain timeframe should be given.
The fact that he was found cheating should be enough that the quote "not guilty until proven" is not relevant anymore for him. He has to proof now, after found out cheating "once", that he doesnt cheat by filming and sending it to the tournament admins or only playing offline events. Its like being "auf Bewährung" in Germany where u have to show up for control and so on.
The point in we don't have proof that he cheated in online tournaments should no longer be right, it's like Tour de France (Lance Armtsrong, Jan Ullrich or other), everyone said he isn't doping or getting an advantage over another cause they knew others also used doping to win.
Just my Thoughts (sry for the wrong spellings, if there are some).
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EPT
