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On January 23 2013 10:00 blade55555 wrote:
Hm I wonder if that means MLG is having a wol and hots tournament? The next MLG is going to be hots and yet flash says he can't practice it with MLG being another reason. Interesting indeed.
I think it's more because he can't practice HotS until it's released, and it will be released just a few days before MLG.
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On January 23 2013 10:01 Soft`Soap wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 09:54 Confuse wrote:On January 23 2013 09:44 starfinder wrote:On January 23 2013 09:37 Vasoline73 wrote:
Yay Flash! Sucks to hear Kespa players don't seem to care about GSL though :/. why they should care GSL? GOMTV paid them something? Because GSL is supposed to be the highest level of sc2 competition? It should hold the same level of prestige OSL/MSL held in BW days, its supposed to be meaningful. It should, but it doesn't PL > everything else SC2-related in Korea
In terms of sponsorships and coverage, yeah sure, PL > GSL.
But in terms of skill level and where the best of the best SC2 players are at, it's still GSL > PL.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On January 23 2013 17:49 WalkTheEdge2494 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 10:00 blade55555 wrote:
Hm I wonder if that means MLG is having a wol and hots tournament? The next MLG is going to be hots and yet flash says he can't practice it with MLG being another reason. Interesting indeed. I think it's more because he can't practice HotS until it's released, and it will be released just a few days before MLG.
i'm sure he can get a beta key
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On January 23 2013 17:49 Kommander wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 10:01 Soft`Soap wrote:On January 23 2013 09:54 Confuse wrote:On January 23 2013 09:44 starfinder wrote:On January 23 2013 09:37 Vasoline73 wrote:
Yay Flash! Sucks to hear Kespa players don't seem to care about GSL though :/. why they should care GSL? GOMTV paid them something? Because GSL is supposed to be the highest level of sc2 competition? It should hold the same level of prestige OSL/MSL held in BW days, its supposed to be meaningful. It should, but it doesn't PL > everything else SC2-related in Korea In terms of sponsorships and coverage, yeah sure, PL > GSL. But in terms of skill level and where the best of the best SC2 players are at, it's still GSL > PL.
Why you guys can´t understand, please tell me?
Kespa players are workers of big companies (Samsumg, KT, SKT, etc).
They need to bring attention not for himselves but for the companies ^ that ones.
So, PL in Korean TV is more important than GSL for foreign people on internet (Maybe for samsumg in the future).
Jesus, how can this be hard to understand?
It have nothing do do with skill. Its a business. Its so hard to understand?
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The funny thing is that Proleague is considered more prestigious than the GSL as a SC2 tournament by some people purely on the back of a legacy built on games that aren't SC2. Meanwhile, the GSL has better players, far, FAR better casters (to be clear, I'm talking about this from a foreign perspective, I expect the Korean casters for the GSL and Proleague are both excellent and roughly of equivalent quality), and well over two years dedicated to supporting, growing, and popularizing SC2 while PL is relatively new to the SC2 scene. It's silly that certain folks care more about an abstract concept like legacy (and to reiterate, one that has nothing to do with SC2) rather than factors like the ones previously listed (players, casters, long history of supporting SC2) when determining which tournament is more important/prestigious. I guess that's just human nature though, unfortunately.
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On January 23 2013 19:56 HolyArrow wrote:
The funny thing is that Proleague is considered more prestigious than the GSL as a SC2 tournament by some people purely on the back of a legacy built on games that aren't SC2. Meanwhile, the GSL has better players, far, FAR better casters (to be clear, I'm talking about this from a foreign perspective, I expect the Korean casters for the GSL and Proleague are both excellent and roughly of equivalent quality), and well over two years dedicated to supporting, growing, and popularizing SC2 while PL is relatively new to the SC2 scene. It's silly that certain folks care more about an abstract concept like legacy (and to reiterate, one that has nothing to do with SC2) rather than factors like the ones previously listed (players, casters, long history of supporting SC2) when determining which tournament is more important/prestigious. I guess that's just human nature though, unfortunately.
or its your human nature to think they do tournaments to your pleasure, youre the factor.
No. In every sport, e-sport in the world, the point is the business. Its what makes more money for the
organizers.
So, this point of "determining which tournament is more important/prestigious", its not you.
The more important is the one who makes more ROI to investors. Simple.
For one it can be PL, for another ot can be GSL.
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On January 23 2013 19:10 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 17:49 WalkTheEdge2494 wrote:On January 23 2013 10:00 blade55555 wrote:
Hm I wonder if that means MLG is having a wol and hots tournament? The next MLG is going to be hots and yet flash says he can't practice it with MLG being another reason. Interesting indeed. I think it's more because he can't practice HotS until it's released, and it will be released just a few days before MLG. i'm sure he can get a beta key
I'm sure he has a beta key, but he says that he only has time to practice WoL, and will have to practice HotS when it's out. I realized I worded that a bit strange.
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On January 23 2013 19:56 HolyArrow wrote:
The funny thing is that Proleague is considered more prestigious than the GSL as a SC2 tournament by some people purely on the back of a legacy built on games that aren't SC2. Meanwhile, the GSL has better players, far, FAR better casters (to be clear, I'm talking about this from a foreign perspective, I expect the Korean casters for the GSL and Proleague are both excellent and roughly of equivalent quality), and well over two years dedicated to supporting, growing, and popularizing SC2 while PL is relatively new to the SC2 scene. It's silly that certain folks care more about an abstract concept like legacy (and to reiterate, one that has nothing to do with SC2) rather than factors like the ones previously listed (players, casters, long history of supporting SC2) when determining which tournament is more important/prestigious. I guess that's just human nature though, unfortunately.
what part of corporate sponsorship is an abstract concept?
edit: i feel like this is one of the main reason why esf teams are finding it hard to get a stable sponsor. there is nothing like the proleague for the esf teams to participate in. and you can't compare the gsl, the gomtv run league to proleague, the goverment run league.
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Sure, money does a lot for a tournament, and I realize I forgot to mention that factor in my previous post. I just think it's funny that the GSL has all these things going for it that are relevant to VIEWERS (player skill, caster quality), but in the end it's money that triumphs in the business aspect of things. It's the truth, I completely agree, but it's an ugly one. It's like, imagine if a bunch of massive corporations like Microsoft/Google/Apple all decided to collectively sponsor an SC2 tournament a few years from now (completely and utterly hypothetical, but I think it illustrates my point well). Imagine that the GSL and PL were both supporting and promoting SC2 this entire time, and to top it all off, this hypothetical SC2 tournament for some reason has players and casters that aren't as good as the ones in the GSL and PL. I could make a good argument for why it's more prestigious purely because of its corporate sponsorships, but it would also just feel shitty to actually regard it as more prestigious because it's done nothing for the SC2 scene relative to the GSL or PL and fails to beat the GSL or PL in terms of player skill or casting quality; all it has going for it is money.
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On January 23 2013 20:14 HolyArrow wrote:
Sure, money does a lot for a tournament, and I realize I forgot to mention that factor in my previous post. I just think it's funny that the GSL has all these things going for it that are relevant to VIEWERS (player skill, caster quality), but in the end it's money that triumphs in the business aspect of things. It's the truth, I completely agree, but it's an ugly one.
i don't disagree with you that gsl players are skillful, but even though some players in proleague aren't the best, games are still entertaining because of the team aspect theres a lot at stake if a player loses a game.
but at the end of the day when your sponsors want you to win proleague. you practice your ass off to win proleague.
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On January 23 2013 20:20 Tsutchie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 20:14 HolyArrow wrote:
Sure, money does a lot for a tournament, and I realize I forgot to mention that factor in my previous post. I just think it's funny that the GSL has all these things going for it that are relevant to VIEWERS (player skill, caster quality), but in the end it's money that triumphs in the business aspect of things. It's the truth, I completely agree, but it's an ugly one. i don't disagree with you that gsl players are skillful, but even though some players in proleague aren't the best, games are still entertaining because of the team aspect theres a lot at stake if a player loses a game. but at the end of the day when your sponsors want you to win proleague. you practice your ass off to win proleague.
I want to be clear, I don't think PL players are bad at all, in fact I'd say that they're in general pretty close to GSL players in skill. Just so I don't offend anyone too much ^^ But the point still stands that the skill level in the GSL is slightly higher than that of PL, and as for casters... Tastetosis is worlds ahead of SNM and Whiplash. I'd regard PL in a far more positive light if they had the sense to hire world-class casters, even if it means they'd have to spend a lot more money to pay their salaries. I feel somewhat slighted as a foreign SC2 fan with their hiring choices. And I feel bad talking about SNM and Whiplash like that because they seem like cool people who are legitimately trying to improve, but the fact is that a tournament that's supposed to be as prestigious as PL should have the very best casters.
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On January 23 2013 19:56 HolyArrow wrote:
The funny thing is that Proleague is considered more prestigious than the GSL as a SC2 tournament by some people purely on the back of a legacy built on games that aren't SC2. Meanwhile, the GSL has better players, far, FAR better casters (to be clear, I'm talking about this from a foreign perspective, I expect the Korean casters for the GSL and Proleague are both excellent and roughly of equivalent quality), and well over two years dedicated to supporting, growing, and popularizing SC2 while PL is relatively new to the SC2 scene. It's silly that certain folks care more about an abstract concept like legacy (and to reiterate, one that has nothing to do with SC2) rather than factors like the ones previously listed (players, casters, long history of supporting SC2) when determining which tournament is more important/prestigious. I guess that's just human nature though, unfortunately.
You totally wrong.
In fact GSL and ESF just a legacy of proleague.
look at esf player's background,most of them have Proleague A/B teamer experience. Why ESF players have better macro and micro than foreign players? proleague teams trained them before. That's all.
the only thing Gomtv did is exploit ex-proleague players for GSL,and take money away from fans like you by deception.
you like this? just enjoy it continually.
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On January 23 2013 20:33 starfinder wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 19:56 HolyArrow wrote:
The funny thing is that Proleague is considered more prestigious than the GSL as a SC2 tournament by some people purely on the back of a legacy built on games that aren't SC2. Meanwhile, the GSL has better players, far, FAR better casters (to be clear, I'm talking about this from a foreign perspective, I expect the Korean casters for the GSL and Proleague are both excellent and roughly of equivalent quality), and well over two years dedicated to supporting, growing, and popularizing SC2 while PL is relatively new to the SC2 scene. It's silly that certain folks care more about an abstract concept like legacy (and to reiterate, one that has nothing to do with SC2) rather than factors like the ones previously listed (players, casters, long history of supporting SC2) when determining which tournament is more important/prestigious. I guess that's just human nature though, unfortunately. You totally wrong. In fact GSL and ESF just a legacy of proleague. look at esf player's background,most of them have Proleague A/B teamer experience. Why ESF players have better macro and micro than foreign players? proleague teams trained them before. That's all. the only thing Gomtv did is exploit ex-proleague players for GSL,and take money away from fans like you by deception. you like this? just enjoy it continually.
Lol take money away from fans like me by deception? All I know is that if the GSL never existed, what would have been THE SC2 tournament for the last 2+ years? What organization would have been promoting a world-class level of SC2 for the last 2+ years? If the GSL never existed then I wouldn't have even had a world-class SC2 tournament to give any money to. You make it sound like there was an alternate world-class SC2 tournament available to support and the GSL deceived me into supporting them. And you can't just assume that proleague is the reason why ESF players have better macro and micro than foreign players because there are ESF players with no proleague background who are also better than foreign players, who are even top SC2 players (such as Leenock and Life).
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On January 23 2013 20:39 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 20:33 starfinder wrote:On January 23 2013 19:56 HolyArrow wrote:
The funny thing is that Proleague is considered more prestigious than the GSL as a SC2 tournament by some people purely on the back of a legacy built on games that aren't SC2. Meanwhile, the GSL has better players, far, FAR better casters (to be clear, I'm talking about this from a foreign perspective, I expect the Korean casters for the GSL and Proleague are both excellent and roughly of equivalent quality), and well over two years dedicated to supporting, growing, and popularizing SC2 while PL is relatively new to the SC2 scene. It's silly that certain folks care more about an abstract concept like legacy (and to reiterate, one that has nothing to do with SC2) rather than factors like the ones previously listed (players, casters, long history of supporting SC2) when determining which tournament is more important/prestigious. I guess that's just human nature though, unfortunately. You totally wrong. In fact GSL and ESF just a legacy of proleague. look at esf player's background,most of them have Proleague A/B teamer experience. Why ESF players have better macro and micro than foreign players? proleague teams trained them before. That's all. the only thing Gomtv did is exploit ex-proleague players for GSL,and take money away from fans like you by deception. you like this? just enjoy it continually. Lol take money away from fans like me by deception? All I know is that if the GSL never existed, what would have been THE SC2 tournament for the last 2+ years? What organization would have been promoting a world-class level of SC2 for the last 2+ years? If the GSL never existed then I wouldn't have even had a world-class SC2 tournament to give any money to. You make it sound like there was an alternate world-class SC2 tournament available to support and the GSL deceived me into supporting them. And you can't just assume that proleague is the reason why ESF players have better macro and micro than foreign players because there are ESF players with no proleague background who are also better than foreign players, who are even top SC2 players (such as Leenock and Life).
he's pretty much saying that if BW, PL (and the like) weren't so successful, then ESF and GOMTV won't be also. Which is pretty much true, you know.
They did build GSL based off a legacy.
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On January 23 2013 12:11 starfinder wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 11:38 LightSpectra wrote:On January 23 2013 10:02 starfinder wrote:On January 23 2013 09:50 tuho12345 wrote:On January 23 2013 09:44 starfinder wrote:On January 23 2013 09:37 Vasoline73 wrote:
Yay Flash! Sucks to hear Kespa players don't seem to care about GSL though :/. why they should care GSL? GOMTV paid them something? They make a shit load of money if they win GSL so why not? Plus even if you're in R32, you'll still get some money for it so why the hell not? 1000$ a month for code S RO32? I can afford 1000$ too, why not Manny Pacquiao take a boxing with me? KT paid him 400K$ this season for 42 regular matches and playoff. GOMTV paid him nothing so far, why he must play for GOM? What? No, that can't be right. Flash has made a total of $400k over his entire career, with 6 starleague wins. That's true.Flash makes $400K per year,salary only. He is more likely a sports star in South Korea. Both in popularity and income. Remember this guy? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/twxWi8y.jpg) a soccer player, has a nickname: the People's Rooney, WorldCup participant, born in Japan, played in Japanese and Europe clubs, and playing for Suwon Samsung Bluewings in South Korea now. His contract is about 400,000,000 Won/year, one of highest income soccer players in K-league. Flash makes about the same as him.
Chong Tese my friend, why have you left the Bundesliga T.T
It's kinda funny to realize that Flash is basically becoming a millionaire by playing computer games 
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On January 23 2013 20:54 fluidin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 20:39 HolyArrow wrote:On January 23 2013 20:33 starfinder wrote:On January 23 2013 19:56 HolyArrow wrote:
The funny thing is that Proleague is considered more prestigious than the GSL as a SC2 tournament by some people purely on the back of a legacy built on games that aren't SC2. Meanwhile, the GSL has better players, far, FAR better casters (to be clear, I'm talking about this from a foreign perspective, I expect the Korean casters for the GSL and Proleague are both excellent and roughly of equivalent quality), and well over two years dedicated to supporting, growing, and popularizing SC2 while PL is relatively new to the SC2 scene. It's silly that certain folks care more about an abstract concept like legacy (and to reiterate, one that has nothing to do with SC2) rather than factors like the ones previously listed (players, casters, long history of supporting SC2) when determining which tournament is more important/prestigious. I guess that's just human nature though, unfortunately. You totally wrong. In fact GSL and ESF just a legacy of proleague. look at esf player's background,most of them have Proleague A/B teamer experience. Why ESF players have better macro and micro than foreign players? proleague teams trained them before. That's all. the only thing Gomtv did is exploit ex-proleague players for GSL,and take money away from fans like you by deception. you like this? just enjoy it continually. Lol take money away from fans like me by deception? All I know is that if the GSL never existed, what would have been THE SC2 tournament for the last 2+ years? What organization would have been promoting a world-class level of SC2 for the last 2+ years? If the GSL never existed then I wouldn't have even had a world-class SC2 tournament to give any money to. You make it sound like there was an alternate world-class SC2 tournament available to support and the GSL deceived me into supporting them. And you can't just assume that proleague is the reason why ESF players have better macro and micro than foreign players because there are ESF players with no proleague background who are also better than foreign players, who are even top SC2 players (such as Leenock and Life). he's pretty much saying that if BW, PL (and the like) weren't so successful, then ESF and GOMTV won't be also. Which is pretty much true, you know. They did build GSL based off a legacy.
My point is that none of that matters. I said in my initial post that I disagree with even factoring in the concept of legacy, because it's meaningless to me as a viewer. I care about player skill and caster quality, since that directly affects how enjoyable a tournament is to me. I'm not sitting there watching SPL and thinking, "Wow, these casters are way worse than Tastetosis, but since SPL has such a rich legacy, I'm magically enjoying watching it more". No, I'm sitting there and thinking, "Wow, these casters are way worse than Tastetosis, these players are still not quite there yet in terms of skill/gamesense due to having played SC2 for a significantly shorter period of time than ESF players, so this tournament is less enjoyable to me". And sure, everyone has different reasons for enjoying things, and I realize that seeing BW legends play SC2 is extremely enjoyable for many people. But going back to the initial topic - the concept of prestige - I'd say that if a tournament has better players and better casters which make for a better SC2 competition experience along great production values to back it all up, then it would deserve to be considered the most prestigious tournament.
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On January 23 2013 21:12 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 20:54 fluidin wrote:On January 23 2013 20:39 HolyArrow wrote:On January 23 2013 20:33 starfinder wrote:On January 23 2013 19:56 HolyArrow wrote:
The funny thing is that Proleague is considered more prestigious than the GSL as a SC2 tournament by some people purely on the back of a legacy built on games that aren't SC2. Meanwhile, the GSL has better players, far, FAR better casters (to be clear, I'm talking about this from a foreign perspective, I expect the Korean casters for the GSL and Proleague are both excellent and roughly of equivalent quality), and well over two years dedicated to supporting, growing, and popularizing SC2 while PL is relatively new to the SC2 scene. It's silly that certain folks care more about an abstract concept like legacy (and to reiterate, one that has nothing to do with SC2) rather than factors like the ones previously listed (players, casters, long history of supporting SC2) when determining which tournament is more important/prestigious. I guess that's just human nature though, unfortunately. You totally wrong. In fact GSL and ESF just a legacy of proleague. look at esf player's background,most of them have Proleague A/B teamer experience. Why ESF players have better macro and micro than foreign players? proleague teams trained them before. That's all. the only thing Gomtv did is exploit ex-proleague players for GSL,and take money away from fans like you by deception. you like this? just enjoy it continually. Lol take money away from fans like me by deception? All I know is that if the GSL never existed, what would have been THE SC2 tournament for the last 2+ years? What organization would have been promoting a world-class level of SC2 for the last 2+ years? If the GSL never existed then I wouldn't have even had a world-class SC2 tournament to give any money to. You make it sound like there was an alternate world-class SC2 tournament available to support and the GSL deceived me into supporting them. And you can't just assume that proleague is the reason why ESF players have better macro and micro than foreign players because there are ESF players with no proleague background who are also better than foreign players, who are even top SC2 players (such as Leenock and Life). he's pretty much saying that if BW, PL (and the like) weren't so successful, then ESF and GOMTV won't be also. Which is pretty much true, you know. They did build GSL based off a legacy. My point is that none of that matters. I said in my initial post that I disagree with even factoring in the concept of legacy, because it's meaningless to me as a viewer. I care about player skill and caster quality, since that directly affects how enjoyable a tournament is to me. I'm not sitting there watching SPL and thinking, "Wow, these casters are way worse than Tastetosis, but since SPL has such a rich legacy, I'm magically enjoying watching it more". No, I'm sitting there and thinking, "Wow, these casters are way worse than Tastetosis, these players are still not quite there yet in terms of skill/gamesense due to having played SC2 for a significantly shorter period of time than ESF players, so this tournament is less enjoyable to me". And sure, everyone has different reasons for enjoying things, and I realize that seeing BW legends play SC2 is extremely enjoyable for many people. But going back to the initial topic - the concept of prestige - I'd say that if a tournament has better players and better casters which make for a better SC2 competition experience along great production values to back it all up, then it would deserve to be considered the most prestigious tournament.
well yeah, that's all fine and dandy, but things obviously don't always work this way if at all.
i mean, sc2 leagues are after all still a form of consumption entertainment, if everyone thought the way you did supply would have to rise to meet demand, and yet it didn't. unless "being the most prestigious tournament" only falls under your definition, i'm afraid to say quite a few people don't agree with your view (prob not on TL obv)
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On January 23 2013 21:04 ibraishome wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 12:11 starfinder wrote:On January 23 2013 11:38 LightSpectra wrote:On January 23 2013 10:02 starfinder wrote:On January 23 2013 09:50 tuho12345 wrote:On January 23 2013 09:44 starfinder wrote:On January 23 2013 09:37 Vasoline73 wrote:
Yay Flash! Sucks to hear Kespa players don't seem to care about GSL though :/. why they should care GSL? GOMTV paid them something? They make a shit load of money if they win GSL so why not? Plus even if you're in R32, you'll still get some money for it so why the hell not? 1000$ a month for code S RO32? I can afford 1000$ too, why not Manny Pacquiao take a boxing with me? KT paid him 400K$ this season for 42 regular matches and playoff. GOMTV paid him nothing so far, why he must play for GOM? What? No, that can't be right. Flash has made a total of $400k over his entire career, with 6 starleague wins. That's true.Flash makes $400K per year,salary only. He is more likely a sports star in South Korea. Both in popularity and income. Remember this guy? a soccer player, has a nickname: the People's Rooney, WorldCup participant, born in Japan, played in Japanese and Europe clubs, and playing for Suwon Samsung Bluewings in South Korea now. His contract is about 400,000,000 Won/year, one of highest income soccer players in K-league. Flash makes about the same as him. Chong Tese my friend, why have you left the Bundesliga T.T It's kinda funny to realize that Flash is basically becoming a millionaire by playing computer games
I would claim that there are plenty of people who are millionaires by playing online poker, which is basically a computer game.
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Regardless of his salary, whatever it might be, I am happy to see Flash winning and breaking KT's losing streak.
Thanks for translating, Seeker.
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On January 24 2013 00:48 Yoshi- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 21:04 ibraishome wrote:On January 23 2013 12:11 starfinder wrote:On January 23 2013 11:38 LightSpectra wrote:On January 23 2013 10:02 starfinder wrote:On January 23 2013 09:50 tuho12345 wrote:On January 23 2013 09:44 starfinder wrote:On January 23 2013 09:37 Vasoline73 wrote:
Yay Flash! Sucks to hear Kespa players don't seem to care about GSL though :/. why they should care GSL? GOMTV paid them something? They make a shit load of money if they win GSL so why not? Plus even if you're in R32, you'll still get some money for it so why the hell not? 1000$ a month for code S RO32? I can afford 1000$ too, why not Manny Pacquiao take a boxing with me? KT paid him 400K$ this season for 42 regular matches and playoff. GOMTV paid him nothing so far, why he must play for GOM? What? No, that can't be right. Flash has made a total of $400k over his entire career, with 6 starleague wins. That's true.Flash makes $400K per year,salary only. He is more likely a sports star in South Korea. Both in popularity and income. Remember this guy? a soccer player, has a nickname: the People's Rooney, WorldCup participant, born in Japan, played in Japanese and Europe clubs, and playing for Suwon Samsung Bluewings in South Korea now. His contract is about 400,000,000 Won/year, one of highest income soccer players in K-league. Flash makes about the same as him. Chong Tese my friend, why have you left the Bundesliga T.T It's kinda funny to realize that Flash is basically becoming a millionaire by playing computer games I would claim that there are plenty of people who are millionaires by playing online poker, which is basically a computer game.
Those are 2 different things tough. One is a computer game that is it, cannot be played without computer.
Other is a game that has been played for ages and this version just happened to be on computer.
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EPT
