On January 19 2013 20:17 kckkryptonite wrote: When MVP was winning everything, T looked too good, but then again he was playing damn near perfect - which is what is required of T now days. Mistakes from T just more punishable.
When MVP was winning everything T was kind of OP. We had a few seasons where GSL consisted of 80% T or something like that.
I think T will return. All that is needed for T to win more games is less open maps.
You saying we had few season in GSL with around 25/32 Terrans? Random numbers for the win.
Yeah that's definitely not random. Were you not around during the GomTVT era?
I want to bring up a strong point, the OP was talking about the difference in terms of mechanics and strategy between the races from lower to pro levels. but people must understand, we're all playing different games, while for me this game is not the similar game to my friend who play a different race, while for me SC2 (as a terran) is about TVT, TVP, TVZ strategies with different approach of macro and micro (such as keeping all raxs queued up, not over queuing, having mindset of creativity aggression etc) for my zerg friend, it is a total of a different game as he has to focus his game on total uncomparable different things - mindset of defensive game, hitting inject, creep spread.
Even if at the end of the day, we do decide that X var of zerg race is easier to execute then Y var of terran race, then we're up to a second different and impossible task, of deciding the importance of X and Y to win the game. (example: lets say dropping mules is easier from hitting inject, how can we decide if missing inject will effect much worse on my game then dropping a mule)
On January 19 2013 20:17 kckkryptonite wrote: When MVP was winning everything, T looked too good, but then again he was playing damn near perfect - which is what is required of T now days. Mistakes from T just more punishable.
When MVP was winning everything T was kind of OP. We had a few seasons where GSL consisted of 80% T or something like that.
I think T will return. All that is needed for T to win more games is less open maps.
You saying we had few season in GSL with around 25/32 Terrans? Random numbers for the win.
Yeah that's definitely not random. Were you not around during the GomTVT era?
Yeah its random since its simply false.
GSL Code S October 2011, 20 Terrans. Do your research.
On January 19 2013 20:17 kckkryptonite wrote: When MVP was winning everything, T looked too good, but then again he was playing damn near perfect - which is what is required of T now days. Mistakes from T just more punishable.
When MVP was winning everything T was kind of OP. We had a few seasons where GSL consisted of 80% T or something like that.
I think T will return. All that is needed for T to win more games is less open maps.
You saying we had few season in GSL with around 25/32 Terrans? Random numbers for the win.
Yeah that's definitely not random. Were you not around during the GomTVT era?
Yeah its random since its simply false.
GSL Code S October 2011, 20 Terrans. Do your research.
On January 19 2013 20:17 kckkryptonite wrote: When MVP was winning everything, T looked too good, but then again he was playing damn near perfect - which is what is required of T now days. Mistakes from T just more punishable.
When MVP was winning everything T was kind of OP. We had a few seasons where GSL consisted of 80% T or something like that.
I think T will return. All that is needed for T to win more games is less open maps.
You saying we had few season in GSL with around 25/32 Terrans? Random numbers for the win.
Yeah that's definitely not random. Were you not around during the GomTVT era?
Yeah its random since its simply false.
To be fair we had a season with 19/32 as terrans, the following with 20/32, and the season after that with 17/32. All of those seasons had at least 50% of the players being terran if you incude code a.
On January 19 2013 20:17 kckkryptonite wrote: When MVP was winning everything, T looked too good, but then again he was playing damn near perfect - which is what is required of T now days. Mistakes from T just more punishable.
When MVP was winning everything T was kind of OP. We had a few seasons where GSL consisted of 80% T or something like that.
I think T will return. All that is needed for T to win more games is less open maps.
You saying we had few season in GSL with around 25/32 Terrans? Random numbers for the win.
Yeah that's definitely not random. Were you not around during the GomTVT era?
Yeah its random since its simply false.
To be fair we had a season with 19/32 as terrans, the following with 20/32, and the season after that with 17/32. All of those seasons had at least 50% of the players being terran if you incude code a.
Im aware of that , still far away from 80% and that was my point about "random numbers"
On January 19 2013 20:17 kckkryptonite wrote: When MVP was winning everything, T looked too good, but then again he was playing damn near perfect - which is what is required of T now days. Mistakes from T just more punishable.
When MVP was winning everything T was kind of OP. We had a few seasons where GSL consisted of 80% T or something like that.
I think T will return. All that is needed for T to win more games is less open maps.
You saying we had few season in GSL with around 25/32 Terrans? Random numbers for the win.
Yeah that's definitely not random. Were you not around during the GomTVT era?
Yeah its random since its simply false.
GSL Code S October 2011, 20 Terrans. Do your research.
20/32=62.5%, Do your math.
It was never my intention to specify the exact percentage of T during those seasons. I just wanted to point out that they were overrepresented in GSL for a while. Me not knowing the exact percentage is kind of the reason why I added the "or something like that" to the end of the sentence.
On January 19 2013 18:29 Sapphire.lux wrote: My biggest problem with SC2 right now are the maps. They have gotten more and more "open" with almost no features apart from the main and natural, maybe the 3ed. Why so few chokes? Why so few high ground areas? My only hope is with KESPA, as i think Blizzard, the community and GSL have all failed miserably at making good maps.
EDIT: open maps + lack of micro needed+speed gives Zerg a big advantage in the "how hard is to play" area.
Early blizz maps had lots of cliffs, chokes, interesting terrain, islands, hidden expansions, multi shaped designs, etc... Then Zerg whined about imba maps and now we have our current map pool.
On January 19 2013 20:17 kckkryptonite wrote: When MVP was winning everything, T looked too good, but then again he was playing damn near perfect - which is what is required of T now days. Mistakes from T just more punishable.
When MVP was winning everything T was kind of OP. We had a few seasons where GSL consisted of 80% T or something like that.
I think T will return. All that is needed for T to win more games is less open maps.
You saying we had few season in GSL with around 25/32 Terrans? Random numbers for the win.
Yeah that's definitely not random. Were you not around during the GomTVT era?
Yeah its random since its simply false.
GSL Code S October 2011, 20 Terrans. Do your research.
20/32=62.5%, Do your math.
It was never my intention to specify the exact percentage of T during those seasons. I just wanted to point out that they were overrepresented in GSL for a while. Me not knowing the exact percentage is kind of the reason why I added the "or something like that" to the end of the sentence.
Isn't that the definition of spouting off random numbers?
On January 19 2013 14:25 Tileks wrote: I dont think that Terran is underpowered, I just feel that Terran is hard to use the units at the fullest, just look at the marines, the difference of a bad controlled group of marines to a well controlled is huge, Other races dont have any unit that have a range of skill cap like the marine. Ghost is and Raven are harder to use than Infestor and HT, for example, to use a Ghost to the fullest u have to snipe observers and land EMP on HTs, but use HT is easier cause storm do the same damage to all targets and is easier to land a Storm. All of this do not turn Terran underpowered, just harder the units at the fullest, something that Koreans can do, Foreigners cant at the moment.
i highly disagree with ghosts being harder to use than hts, its easier to land emps by spamming them, toss will then just get rolled, and ghosts have an extra range.
This made my skin crawl. You have clearly never played TvP from the Terran side. Ghosts have to *LEAD* your army to cast the emp spell, and even if it lands, you have to hit *ALL* of the templars *TWICE* to stop storm, which will kill you if you do not hit every single one. So, when the ghosts get done casting emps they *die instantly* because they do not have stim and they are slow as fuck and can not micro at all.
Second, ghosts lead the group if you box click. This means that if you need to box click your units at any time to stim real fast, it does not cast. You either need to control click them out of the group, or tab over to cast the spell. Since the Terran army dies in about 1.5 seconds to the protoss death ball, this seemingly small detail becomes a huge deal.
Third, there is no such thing as "spamming emp". Try it. Go into unit tester and spam emp as fast as you can with 4 ghosts. You know what happens? One or two goes off. Because it is not instant cast, if you cast it too fast, they don't go off. It's fucking horrible. Ghosts are just plain awful compared to their HT and Intestor counterparts. Just awful.
Just from the way you're describing the way you control your units, I can tell you don't understand how to efficiently command MMMGV.
On January 19 2013 14:25 Tileks wrote: I dont think that Terran is underpowered, I just feel that Terran is hard to use the units at the fullest, just look at the marines, the difference of a bad controlled group of marines to a well controlled is huge, Other races dont have any unit that have a range of skill cap like the marine. Ghost is and Raven are harder to use than Infestor and HT, for example, to use a Ghost to the fullest u have to snipe observers and land EMP on HTs, but use HT is easier cause storm do the same damage to all targets and is easier to land a Storm. All of this do not turn Terran underpowered, just harder the units at the fullest, something that Koreans can do, Foreigners cant at the moment.
i highly disagree with ghosts being harder to use than hts, its easier to land emps by spamming them, toss will then just get rolled, and ghosts have an extra range.
This made my skin crawl. You have clearly never played TvP from the Terran side. Ghosts have to *LEAD* your army to cast the emp spell, and even if it lands, you have to hit *ALL* of the templars *TWICE* to stop storm, which will kill you if you do not hit every single one. So, when the ghosts get done casting emps they *die instantly* because they do not have stim and they are slow as fuck and can not micro at all.
Second, ghosts lead the group if you box click. This means that if you need to box click your units at any time to stim real fast, it does not cast. You either need to control click them out of the group, or tab over to cast the spell. Since the Terran army dies in about 1.5 seconds to the protoss death ball, this seemingly small detail becomes a huge deal.
Third, there is no such thing as "spamming emp". Try it. Go into unit tester and spam emp as fast as you can with 4 ghosts. You know what happens? One or two goes off. Because it is not instant cast, if you cast it too fast, they don't go off. It's fucking horrible. Ghosts are just plain awful compared to their HT and Intestor counterparts. Just awful.
Just from the way you're describing the way you control your units, I can tell you don't understand how to efficiently command MMMGV.
I agree. MMMGV needs proper position and movement. About your ghost emp thing. I think you should get a raven with you. It's not the same as playing vs overseer because you can snipe it. But perhaps you can have a raven in front with your vikings. -- Kill the obs. Because the obs will most likely be in front of his army. Then hopefully run in and snipe or emp the hts.
On January 19 2013 18:29 Sapphire.lux wrote: My biggest problem with SC2 right now are the maps. They have gotten more and more "open" with almost no features apart from the main and natural, maybe the 3ed. Why so few chokes? Why so few high ground areas? My only hope is with KESPA, as i think Blizzard, the community and GSL have all failed miserably at making good maps.
EDIT: open maps + lack of micro needed+speed gives Zerg a big advantage in the "how hard is to play" area.
Early blizz maps had lots of cliffs, chokes, interesting terrain, islands, hidden expansions, multi shaped designs, etc... Then Zerg whined about imba maps and now we have our current map pool.
Oh please, next thing you gonne say is Kulas Ravine and Steps of War were balanced...
that's why i quit sc2 all together. I really don't like other races, but terran just can't macro as well. Or terran macro is a lot more demanding to say the least. You need a ton of buildings + addons and your units need to walk all the way across the map. Protoss needs buildings but they have warp in, zerg doesn't need buildings except for tech. And on top of all that, Terran units are also the slowest. And it's always Terran who needs to be the aggressor early on so P and Z don't snowball and deathball, how does that make any fucking sense? Well im gonna just keep playing dota until blizzard starts giving a shit, although with all the stuff P an Z got in HotS it doesn't seem like it's gonna happen too soon.
On January 19 2013 18:29 Sapphire.lux wrote: My biggest problem with SC2 right now are the maps. They have gotten more and more "open" with almost no features apart from the main and natural, maybe the 3ed. Why so few chokes? Why so few high ground areas? My only hope is with KESPA, as i think Blizzard, the community and GSL have all failed miserably at making good maps.
EDIT: open maps + lack of micro needed+speed gives Zerg a big advantage in the "how hard is to play" area.
Early blizz maps had lots of cliffs, chokes, interesting terrain, islands, hidden expansions, multi shaped designs, etc... Then Zerg whined about imba maps and now we have our current map pool.
Oh please, next thing you gonne say is Kulas Ravine and Steps of War were balanced...
I said no such thing--I said there were interesting terrain features and choices when blizzard was left to their own devices and when blizz listened to the forums we got the flat maps we have now. I never talked about balance--just design.
I will still play Terran in HotS, just because of self-respect! Don't care if I stay in Plat forever. My army-control is terrible, so with Toss I probably would win alot more, but who cares.
On January 20 2013 02:43 Dirkinity wrote: I will still play Terran in HotS, just because of self-respect! Don't care if I stay in Plat forever. My army-control is terrible, so with Toss I probably would win alot more, but who cares.
Trust me, if your army control is terrible, you would NOT win much as toss. One missed FF = gg in most instances.
On January 20 2013 02:43 Dirkinity wrote: I will still play Terran in HotS, just because of self-respect! Don't care if I stay in Plat forever. My army-control is terrible, so with Toss I probably would win alot more, but who cares.
Trust me, if your army control is terrible, you would NOT win much as toss. One missed FF = gg in most instances.
Uh... Army control has very little to do with placing Force Fields. Toss can move around as 1 blob/deathball and quite literally 1A... that's what he is referring to. I was able to play Protoss at a masters level after literally a year of not touching Toss... because it is mechanically very simple.
On January 19 2013 01:20 Avean wrote: How is Terran more mechanical difficult at lower Leagues when Terran is the only race of them all that has similar mechanics to other RTS games. If you have ever played another RTS game, Terran will be the easiest to pick up and learn since they have the classic RTS mechanics with pumping out units from Barracks. Protoss and Zerg works completely different.
Just dont agree that Terran is difficult to learn.
A bronze terran a moves their marines. Their bronze zerg opponent a moves their banelings. who wins?
On January 19 2013 01:20 Avean wrote: How is Terran more mechanical difficult at lower Leagues when Terran is the only race of them all that has similar mechanics to other RTS games. If you have ever played another RTS game, Terran will be the easiest to pick up and learn since they have the classic RTS mechanics with pumping out units from Barracks. Protoss and Zerg works completely different.
Just dont agree that Terran is difficult to learn.
One important difference between terran and the other two races is that mistakes in terran macro are harder to overcome. This is due to the nature of larva and warpins.
On January 19 2013 20:17 kckkryptonite wrote: When MVP was winning everything, T looked too good, but then again he was playing damn near perfect - which is what is required of T now days. Mistakes from T just more punishable.
When MVP was winning everything T was kind of OP. We had a few seasons where GSL consisted of 80% T or something like that.
I think T will return. All that is needed for T to win more games is less open maps.
You saying we had few season in GSL with around 25/32 Terrans? Random numbers for the win.
Yeah that's definitely not random. Were you not around during the GomTVT era?
Yeah its random since its simply false.
GSL Code S October 2011, 20 Terrans. Do your research.
20/32=62.5%, Do your math.
I heard that the game has not changed at all since october 2011, confirm/deny?
EPT
