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On January 19 2013 14:25 Tileks wrote:
I dont think that Terran is underpowered, I just feel that Terran is hard to use the units at the fullest, just look at the marines, the difference of a bad controlled group of marines to a well controlled is huge, Other races dont have any unit that have a range of skill cap like the marine. Ghost is and Raven are harder to use than Infestor and HT, for example, to use a Ghost to the fullest u have to snipe observers and land EMP on HTs, but use HT is easier cause storm do the same damage to all targets and is easier to land a Storm. All of this do not turn Terran underpowered, just harder the units at the fullest, something that Koreans can do, Foreigners cant at the moment.
i agree in some ways. i think that in bronze zerg is hardest and at around gold-dia terran is hardest and then it evens out. One thing that you cant forget is that people are diffrent, i had very easy time with terran because it suits my style so well and had a harder time with zerg and some people probaly have an easy time with zerg and hard time with terran.
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My biggest problem with SC2 right now are the maps. They have gotten more and more "open" with almost no features apart from the main and natural, maybe the 3ed. Why so few chokes? Why so few high ground areas? My only hope is with KESPA, as i think Blizzard, the community and GSL have all failed miserably at making good maps.
EDIT: open maps + lack of micro needed+speed gives Zerg a big advantage in the "how hard is to play" area.
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I am a top diamond player since a lot of seasons…
I feel a lot better than my opponents, given my game sense, my micro and my various builds (and TvT really tells me alot about this), but I also feel stuck forever in diamond, losing to two bad storms / fungle, an ultra after broodlord remax, DTs, and other shit you simply can't adapt quick enough.
When I try to all in myself, like hellion/marau, even when it's not scouted, the other races can more than often instantly warp reinforcements if needed or use all the larvaes with the correct counter unit… It's incredible how easy and quick it is for these races to adress an urgent need, it's so damn unfair compared to us. If you see the first colossi, how much time before you get enough vikings ? If a protoss sees a banshee, how much time before he gets the counter ? I don't even want to talk about Zerg at this point.
This, in addition of the constant threat of losing your army to a single spell + a click, is extremely stressful as a player. I even get really depressed after a gaming session, as I don't understand how I could win games where I macroed correctly, microed like a king, and adapted well to anything thrown at me. Little errors make you lose vs Huge errors.
The finishing blow comes from the way P& Z are playing : do nothing and defend until they're unbeatable. It's like being on a timer where you explode at the end, whereas you, as terran, can NEVER do the same playing bio and can never tank an army 30 food ahead of your own if you need to defend… I have so many recorded replays to showcase this imbalanced racial difficulty, it's not even funny.
I'm really really depressed with SCII. I went to the Ironsquid in Paris last year. I watched the VOD again and let me tell you : the game SUCKS right now. It's a 200/200 race, boring, repetitive, imbalanced, without micro, while the game was awesome before and TvZ was the staple matchup of SCII. Watch some good old VOD, the first GSL seasons, and you'll see how better the game was before. The new map pool + the queen patch really killed this game. I don't know if I can continue anymore. Everytime I launch the game, I'm ready to be sad. The only way to feel powerful during direct engagements is to go mech sadly, and adopt the boring style of the other races…
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whats the most played race protoss? protoss is easiest but at a high level it seems to lose as a race problem to zergs pretty hard while terran can do well in every matchup.
the problem with protoss is its more fun to go blink stalker warp prism harass but its complete garbage generally speaking as a strat because really strong zerg/terran midgame pushes crush you where as terrans crazy all over the place style actually works. just from a fun standpoint
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Well one race has to be the least played.
Terran is the hardest beacause otherwise it would be blatantly OP. Having the marine at what not. Just the most cost-effective units overall. Since it's the hardest it's also the least played.
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Another thread for terrans to vent their frustrations. I can relate since I do play terran in highmasters but these threads are silly because people always come to the same conclusion and give themselves a pat on their backs for how much effort they show while playing Terran.
Top koreans ruin the game for every mortal Terran since they are pushing the skill ceiling ever upwards and if they get a leg up on other races the race gets nerfed. Not that I mind much.
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On January 19 2013 15:44 askmc70 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 14:25 Tileks wrote:
I dont think that Terran is underpowered, I just feel that Terran is hard to use the units at the fullest, just look at the marines, the difference of a bad controlled group of marines to a well controlled is huge, Other races dont have any unit that have a range of skill cap like the marine. Ghost is and Raven are harder to use than Infestor and HT, for example, to use a Ghost to the fullest u have to snipe observers and land EMP on HTs, but use HT is easier cause storm do the same damage to all targets and is easier to land a Storm. All of this do not turn Terran underpowered, just harder the units at the fullest, something that Koreans can do, Foreigners cant at the moment. i highly disagree with ghosts being harder to use than hts, its easier to land emps by spamming them, toss will then just get rolled, and ghosts have an extra range.
This made my skin crawl. You have clearly never played TvP from the Terran side. Ghosts have to *LEAD* your army to cast the emp spell, and even if it lands, you have to hit *ALL* of the templars *TWICE* to stop storm, which will kill you if you do not hit every single one. So, when the ghosts get done casting emps they *die instantly* because they do not have stim and they are slow as fuck and can not micro at all.
Second, ghosts lead the group if you box click. This means that if you need to box click your units at any time to stim real fast, it does not cast. You either need to control click them out of the group, or tab over to cast the spell. Since the Terran army dies in about 1.5 seconds to the protoss death ball, this seemingly small detail becomes a huge deal.
Third, there is no such thing as "spamming emp". Try it. Go into unit tester and spam emp as fast as you can with 4 ghosts. You know what happens? One or two goes off. Because it is not instant cast, if you cast it too fast, they don't go off. It's fucking horrible. Ghosts are just plain awful compared to their HT and Intestor counterparts. Just awful.
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I think it's about style. For me T was always easier. It seemed to me it was harder to punish and as a T I felt much safer with a variety of openings. Also you don't have to worry about cheese that much.
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I dont think the imbalance is that big. (There will always be imbalance, its not possible to balance a game perfectly, even in Chess you can argue that one color is better then the other). I am only in a gold Terran, but most of the times i can identify what i did wrong, when i loose. And i believe that is true for all games, that are mentioned in this thread.
But maybe the terran race has a more frustrating feel to it, when they loose ? And you have to learn to deal with this frustration as a person, before you can get the right mindset to improve as a player.
The terran race is weaker in the late game and stronger in the midgame. That was confirmed by Blizzard themselfes as they explained the TvP issues.[http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4838104108#1]So you have less hope in the game. Protoss can hope to get their late game Army and kill the Terran, same for Zerg (After a good terran drop, hellion harrass, etc.) . It maybe just be an illusion but it makes the game experience less frustrating.
While as a Terran you get more often the feeling of : "There is nothing i can do, if i dont do a big amount of damage till minute X, i cannot win no matter what." And that feeling is very frustrating. And that leads to a wrong mindset and that makes you stop enjoy the game, etc. and in the end we dont have so much foreign terrans.
TL; DR : A terran loss feels more frustrating then a protoss or zerg loss. That leads to less terran players.
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On January 19 2013 20:08 wingless666 wrote:I dont think the imbalance is that big. (There will always be imbalance, its not possible to balance a game perfectly, even in Chess you can argue that one color is better then the other). I am only in a gold Terran, but most of the times i can identify what i did wrong, when i loose. And i believe that is true for all games, that are mentioned in this thread. But maybe the terran race has a more frustrating feel to it, when they loose ? And you have to learn to deal with this frustration as a person, before you can get the right mindset to improve as a player. The terran race is weaker in the late game and stronger in the midgame. That was confirmed by Blizzard themselfes as they explained the TvP issues.[ http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4838104108#1]So you have less hope in the game. Protoss can hope to get their late game Army and kill the Terran, same for Zerg (After a good terran drop, hellion harrass, etc.) . It maybe just be an illusion but it makes the game experience less frustrating. While as a Terran you get more often the feeling of : "There is nothing i can do, if i dont do a big amount of damage till minute X, i cannot win no matter what." And that feeling is very frustrating. And that leads to a wrong mindset and that makes you stop enjoy the game, etc. and in the end we dont have so much foreign terrans. TL; DR : A terran loss feels more frustrating then a protoss or zerg loss. That leads to less terran players.
But actually this is false.
Ultra late game terran is stronger than ultra late game of protoss / zerg.
Ghosts / viking totally destroys any protoss army.
Thor / Raven / BC + PF totally destroys any zerg army.
But until master, terran players, for sure, a lot of trouble surviving the lategame and going into the ultra late game.
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When MVP was winning everything, T looked too good, but then again he was playing damn near perfect - which is what is required of T now days. Mistakes from T just more punishable.
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On January 19 2013 20:17 kckkryptonite wrote:
When MVP was winning everything, T looked too good, but then again he was playing damn near perfect - which is what is required of T now days. Mistakes from T just more punishable.
When MVP was winning everything T was kind of OP. We had a few seasons where GSL consisted of 80% T or something like that.
I think T will return. All that is needed for T to win more games is less open maps.
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You guys actually might be right with terran beeing the race which requires most multitasking and skill. Its kinda hard to judge, cause you have to look at alot of things: scouting possibilities, spells, macro abilities like inject, boost and mule, warp ins, larva management, harass options....and so on
But still i know alot of guys, who play terran in the lower leagues and argue it is the easiest race of all, because lower skilled enemies have alot of trouble dealing with the high dps of a bioball or with drops. If your macro is bad, it´ll take too long getting AoE out and its hard too to get the map awareness and the multitasking you need to deal with a fast medivac push.
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Not to stir shit up, and this thread seems dedicated to compare low-level balance with actual balance but:
http://aligulac.com/periods/
Protoss almost consistently UP.
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On January 19 2013 20:35 Batch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 20:17 kckkryptonite wrote:
When MVP was winning everything, T looked too good, but then again he was playing damn near perfect - which is what is required of T now days. Mistakes from T just more punishable. When MVP was winning everything T was kind of OP. We had a few seasons where GSL consisted of 80% T or something like that. I think T will return. All that is needed for T to win more games is less open maps.
You saying we had few season in GSL with around 25/32 Terrans?
Random numbers for the win.
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I'm sure in HotS Terran players will rise again
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On January 19 2013 01:13 Powerfoe wrote:
I like how you wrote an essay complaining about how underpowered terran is and can still say, "I'm not saying terran is underpowered."
Word.
This is really just an elaborate whine. Just L2P my friend.
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On January 19 2013 15:44 askmc70 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 14:25 Tileks wrote:
I dont think that Terran is underpowered, I just feel that Terran is hard to use the units at the fullest, just look at the marines, the difference of a bad controlled group of marines to a well controlled is huge, Other races dont have any unit that have a range of skill cap like the marine. Ghost is and Raven are harder to use than Infestor and HT, for example, to use a Ghost to the fullest u have to snipe observers and land EMP on HTs, but use HT is easier cause storm do the same damage to all targets and is easier to land a Storm. All of this do not turn Terran underpowered, just harder the units at the fullest, something that Koreans can do, Foreigners cant at the moment. i highly disagree with ghosts being harder to use than hts, its easier to land emps by spamming them, toss will then just get rolled, and ghosts have an extra range.
You forget that you have to place your vikings, stutter step, avoid storms, stim and try to snipe observers meanwhile you are landing those snipes and emps.
If it was as simple as lol emp pewpew.
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On January 19 2013 22:13 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 20:35 Batch wrote:On January 19 2013 20:17 kckkryptonite wrote:
When MVP was winning everything, T looked too good, but then again he was playing damn near perfect - which is what is required of T now days. Mistakes from T just more punishable. When MVP was winning everything T was kind of OP. We had a few seasons where GSL consisted of 80% T or something like that. I think T will return. All that is needed for T to win more games is less open maps. You saying we had few season in GSL with around 25/32 Terrans? Random numbers for the win.
Yeah that's definitely not random. Were you not around during the GomTVT era?
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On January 19 2013 20:08 wingless666 wrote:I dont think the imbalance is that big. (There will always be imbalance, its not possible to balance a game perfectly, even in Chess you can argue that one color is better then the other). I am only in a gold Terran, but most of the times i can identify what i did wrong, when i loose. And i believe that is true for all games, that are mentioned in this thread. But maybe the terran race has a more frustrating feel to it, when they loose ? And you have to learn to deal with this frustration as a person, before you can get the right mindset to improve as a player. The terran race is weaker in the late game and stronger in the midgame. That was confirmed by Blizzard themselfes as they explained the TvP issues.[ http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4838104108#1]So you have less hope in the game. Protoss can hope to get their late game Army and kill the Terran, same for Zerg (After a good terran drop, hellion harrass, etc.) . It maybe just be an illusion but it makes the game experience less frustrating. While as a Terran you get more often the feeling of : "There is nothing i can do, if i dont do a big amount of damage till minute X, i cannot win no matter what." And that feeling is very frustrating. And that leads to a wrong mindset and that makes you stop enjoy the game, etc. and in the end we dont have so much foreign terrans. TL; DR : A terran loss feels more frustrating then a protoss or zerg loss. That leads to less terran players.
NA Random masters and this is exactly how I feel.
When I get Zerg or even Protoss against Terran, I know its possible for me to stay back and play safe. When I'm Terran against another race I must constantly think of ways to get an advantage. And its not like Terran's timing attacks are amazing (I've always had more success with timing attacks as Protoss).
Terran is mechanically harder in general, and its much harder to come back from a disadvantage. Terran macro, especially, is SO unforgiving. Micro wise, I feel Terran and Zerg are probably equal most of the time.
Sadly, I started with Terran as my only race, but now its the race I dislike the most out of the 3. Of course this doesn't apply to everyone. I have friends who love Terran and everything about it. Just sharing my personal thoughts after playing all 3 races at a "decent" level.
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EPT
