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On January 14 2013 02:57 ES.Genie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 02:10 ROOTheognis wrote:On January 14 2013 01:05 ES.Genie wrote:On January 14 2013 00:35 ROOTheognis wrote:On January 14 2013 00:17 Boucot wrote:On January 13 2013 20:38 Shinta) wrote:On January 13 2013 12:35 Seeker wrote:
:/
I think I called it when I said Disbanded TSL vs Dying coL. Actually I think there was already a post about this before you made that comment. On January 13 2013 17:23 ROOTheognis wrote:On January 13 2013 17:17 dcemuser wrote:On January 13 2013 13:18 aust77 wrote:
As much as I've been something of a cynic with regard to recent developments in the scene (disbandment of SlayerS+TSL, with Prime/NSH possibly next), this news is less outright negative for the health of SC2 as an e-sport. Considering how SlayerS and TSL disbanded, neither of those had much to do with the health of SC2 as an e-sport, lol. SlayerS was an explosion of the world's largest dramabomb, and TSL was because their players all left every time they got good. TSL had trouble even securing sponsors even with power-hitters like Shine, HyuN, Symbol, and Polt. Seems kind of like a problem to me >_< There doesn't seem to be enough sponsor backing in Korea but then again it might be due to the KeSPA-influx. I don't know TSL's situation before the KeSPA transition though but I don't think it was any better. That's mostly BECAUSE all TSL players left as soon as they got good.... SymboL got good but never showed any top finishes. HyuN is famous for being good, but aside from Fight Club, never showed top finishes. Shine was just known to be a solid player, but he wasn't famous. Polt was at his peak before he joined TSL. All of TSL's famous/huge players left as soon as they became good. Polt is the only acception as he came into TSL after he was already famous/huge. TSL had the best sponsorship and the first salaries in SC2 history. Their problem arose because all of the TSL players backstabbed TSL due to greed and other selfish reasons. If I were a sponsor I wouldn't want to sponsor a team that has a history of creating huge players that always leave to other teams, regardless of the high salary they make. (also why I wouldn't pick up Parting if I were a pro team manager) What the... Symbol got 2nd place at Iron Squid 1, HomeStory Cup VI and MLG Spring Arena 2, plus 2 GSL Code S RO8 and a top 6 at IPL5. HyuN got 2nd place last GSL, which is pretty high finish. TSL did a bad job at attracting sponsors. They had the entire 2012 to benefit the shape of Polt and Symbol (plus HyuN at the end of the year). Yeah, I agree. They had a stacked lineup that SHOULD have been able to secure a few decent sponsors. Polt is a huge fan favorite and a top contender for most foreign tournaments he attends. Sure they don't have an MVP who wins 4 GSL's but who the fuck does other than IM? Lol. It's either ridiculously hard for these teams to pick up a stable sponsor nowadays or they are THAT bad at the business side of things. I really think especially TSL and maybe even Slayers would not have disbanded if they have had a reasonable English-speaking manager. This is probably a bigger problem than finding sponsors itself. Oh and btw why is SC2 dying becaue a completely irrelevant gaming house in NA, that I have never even heard of before, is closing its doors? Look at the bigger picture. It might seem insignificant to you because you think it's "irrelevant" but it's essential to have regimented team houses in NA. It provides the means for players to go pro/train full-time so they can compete internationally, helps foster new talent and hopefully bring more sponsors in. These are all things that we want/need for e-sports to thrive over here. It's quite unfortunate that compLexity couldn't find a way to somehow make it more profitable and salvage their team house. Maybe I am just not well informed, but I don't know about any foreign player that made significant improvements in tournament results because of MoW or any of the NA houses. Imo if these houses are anything, then they are extremely expensive marketing stunts and everyone gets hyped about them, because the community seems to think just by emulating the Korean training system and pimping it up with lots of money, the foreign players will suddenly become bonjwas. They won't and especially not in training houses that aren't build for training, but to provide media content none cares about(streams and what not). This isn't a sign of SC2 dying, it's a sign that the foreign way of "fostering new talent"(aka a throw a shit ton of money around) failed pretty hard.
goswser and Sasquatch seem to have done pretty well in the coL house.
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On January 14 2013 02:57 ES.Genie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 02:10 ROOTheognis wrote:On January 14 2013 01:05 ES.Genie wrote:On January 14 2013 00:35 ROOTheognis wrote:On January 14 2013 00:17 Boucot wrote:On January 13 2013 20:38 Shinta) wrote:On January 13 2013 12:35 Seeker wrote:
:/
I think I called it when I said Disbanded TSL vs Dying coL. Actually I think there was already a post about this before you made that comment. On January 13 2013 17:23 ROOTheognis wrote:On January 13 2013 17:17 dcemuser wrote:On January 13 2013 13:18 aust77 wrote:
As much as I've been something of a cynic with regard to recent developments in the scene (disbandment of SlayerS+TSL, with Prime/NSH possibly next), this news is less outright negative for the health of SC2 as an e-sport. Considering how SlayerS and TSL disbanded, neither of those had much to do with the health of SC2 as an e-sport, lol. SlayerS was an explosion of the world's largest dramabomb, and TSL was because their players all left every time they got good. TSL had trouble even securing sponsors even with power-hitters like Shine, HyuN, Symbol, and Polt. Seems kind of like a problem to me >_< There doesn't seem to be enough sponsor backing in Korea but then again it might be due to the KeSPA-influx. I don't know TSL's situation before the KeSPA transition though but I don't think it was any better. That's mostly BECAUSE all TSL players left as soon as they got good.... SymboL got good but never showed any top finishes. HyuN is famous for being good, but aside from Fight Club, never showed top finishes. Shine was just known to be a solid player, but he wasn't famous. Polt was at his peak before he joined TSL. All of TSL's famous/huge players left as soon as they became good. Polt is the only acception as he came into TSL after he was already famous/huge. TSL had the best sponsorship and the first salaries in SC2 history. Their problem arose because all of the TSL players backstabbed TSL due to greed and other selfish reasons. If I were a sponsor I wouldn't want to sponsor a team that has a history of creating huge players that always leave to other teams, regardless of the high salary they make. (also why I wouldn't pick up Parting if I were a pro team manager) What the... Symbol got 2nd place at Iron Squid 1, HomeStory Cup VI and MLG Spring Arena 2, plus 2 GSL Code S RO8 and a top 6 at IPL5. HyuN got 2nd place last GSL, which is pretty high finish. TSL did a bad job at attracting sponsors. They had the entire 2012 to benefit the shape of Polt and Symbol (plus HyuN at the end of the year). Yeah, I agree. They had a stacked lineup that SHOULD have been able to secure a few decent sponsors. Polt is a huge fan favorite and a top contender for most foreign tournaments he attends. Sure they don't have an MVP who wins 4 GSL's but who the fuck does other than IM? Lol. It's either ridiculously hard for these teams to pick up a stable sponsor nowadays or they are THAT bad at the business side of things. I really think especially TSL and maybe even Slayers would not have disbanded if they have had a reasonable English-speaking manager. This is probably a bigger problem than finding sponsors itself. Oh and btw why is SC2 dying becaue a completely irrelevant gaming house in NA, that I have never even heard of before, is closing its doors? Look at the bigger picture. It might seem insignificant to you because you think it's "irrelevant" but it's essential to have regimented team houses in NA. It provides the means for players to go pro/train full-time so they can compete internationally, helps foster new talent and hopefully bring more sponsors in. These are all things that we want/need for e-sports to thrive over here. It's quite unfortunate that compLexity couldn't find a way to somehow make it more profitable and salvage their team house. Maybe I am just not well informed, but I don't know about any foreign player that made significant improvements in tournament results because of MoW or any of the NA houses. Imo if these houses are anything, then they are extremely expensive marketing stunts and everyone gets hyped about them, because the community seems to think just by emulating the Korean training system and pimping it up with lots of money, the foreign players will suddenly become bonjwas. They won't and especially not in training houses that aren't build for training, but to provide media content none cares about(streams and what not). This isn't a sign of SC2 dying, it's a sign that the foreign way of "fostering new talent"(aka a throw a shit ton of money around) failed pretty hard.
I never said that the team houses that are around were perfected or operated correctly. Yes, there are problems with them. There needs to be a stricter format with practice + a qualified coach to help create + enforce this schedule. There's other items missing atm as well such as playing on the KR server and having enough practice partners (this is a big deal that is often overlooked http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/16gulf/col_shuts_down_gaming_house_rip_in_piece/c7vxjtz I can vouch for this as well as I was in the Quantic house). Another problem is the lack of mid-level tournaments that help develop players BEFORE they can step onto the international stage and compete with Koreans. There are many problems as to why foreigners can't just randomly compete with Koreans minus the few exceptions (Stephano/Scarlett).
The disappearance of the team houses doesn't help the cause. There somehow needs to be a reassessment of how they operate and we can work on the other hurdles foreigners are having. Btw, MoW wasn't even a team house. It was just a disorganized association of gamers that were there just to ladder and stream so they could make money to pay to rent.
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On January 14 2013 03:00 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 02:57 ES.Genie wrote:On January 14 2013 02:10 ROOTheognis wrote:On January 14 2013 01:05 ES.Genie wrote:On January 14 2013 00:35 ROOTheognis wrote:On January 14 2013 00:17 Boucot wrote:On January 13 2013 20:38 Shinta) wrote:On January 13 2013 12:35 Seeker wrote:
:/
I think I called it when I said Disbanded TSL vs Dying coL. Actually I think there was already a post about this before you made that comment. On January 13 2013 17:23 ROOTheognis wrote:On January 13 2013 17:17 dcemuser wrote:On January 13 2013 13:18 aust77 wrote:
As much as I've been something of a cynic with regard to recent developments in the scene (disbandment of SlayerS+TSL, with Prime/NSH possibly next), this news is less outright negative for the health of SC2 as an e-sport. Considering how SlayerS and TSL disbanded, neither of those had much to do with the health of SC2 as an e-sport, lol. SlayerS was an explosion of the world's largest dramabomb, and TSL was because their players all left every time they got good. TSL had trouble even securing sponsors even with power-hitters like Shine, HyuN, Symbol, and Polt. Seems kind of like a problem to me >_< There doesn't seem to be enough sponsor backing in Korea but then again it might be due to the KeSPA-influx. I don't know TSL's situation before the KeSPA transition though but I don't think it was any better. That's mostly BECAUSE all TSL players left as soon as they got good.... SymboL got good but never showed any top finishes. HyuN is famous for being good, but aside from Fight Club, never showed top finishes. Shine was just known to be a solid player, but he wasn't famous. Polt was at his peak before he joined TSL. All of TSL's famous/huge players left as soon as they became good. Polt is the only acception as he came into TSL after he was already famous/huge. TSL had the best sponsorship and the first salaries in SC2 history. Their problem arose because all of the TSL players backstabbed TSL due to greed and other selfish reasons. If I were a sponsor I wouldn't want to sponsor a team that has a history of creating huge players that always leave to other teams, regardless of the high salary they make. (also why I wouldn't pick up Parting if I were a pro team manager) What the... Symbol got 2nd place at Iron Squid 1, HomeStory Cup VI and MLG Spring Arena 2, plus 2 GSL Code S RO8 and a top 6 at IPL5. HyuN got 2nd place last GSL, which is pretty high finish. TSL did a bad job at attracting sponsors. They had the entire 2012 to benefit the shape of Polt and Symbol (plus HyuN at the end of the year). Yeah, I agree. They had a stacked lineup that SHOULD have been able to secure a few decent sponsors. Polt is a huge fan favorite and a top contender for most foreign tournaments he attends. Sure they don't have an MVP who wins 4 GSL's but who the fuck does other than IM? Lol. It's either ridiculously hard for these teams to pick up a stable sponsor nowadays or they are THAT bad at the business side of things. I really think especially TSL and maybe even Slayers would not have disbanded if they have had a reasonable English-speaking manager. This is probably a bigger problem than finding sponsors itself. Oh and btw why is SC2 dying becaue a completely irrelevant gaming house in NA, that I have never even heard of before, is closing its doors? Look at the bigger picture. It might seem insignificant to you because you think it's "irrelevant" but it's essential to have regimented team houses in NA. It provides the means for players to go pro/train full-time so they can compete internationally, helps foster new talent and hopefully bring more sponsors in. These are all things that we want/need for e-sports to thrive over here. It's quite unfortunate that compLexity couldn't find a way to somehow make it more profitable and salvage their team house. Maybe I am just not well informed, but I don't know about any foreign player that made significant improvements in tournament results because of MoW or any of the NA houses. Imo if these houses are anything, then they are extremely expensive marketing stunts and everyone gets hyped about them, because the community seems to think just by emulating the Korean training system and pimping it up with lots of money, the foreign players will suddenly become bonjwas. They won't and especially not in training houses that aren't build for training, but to provide media content none cares about(streams and what not). This isn't a sign of SC2 dying, it's a sign that the foreign way of "fostering new talent"(aka a throw a shit ton of money around) failed pretty hard. goswser and Sasquatch seem to have done pretty well in the coL house.
Ok, there is this one guy, goswer, that just had/has this good run in IronSquid. Never heard of Sasquatch. But still, that's like one player out of dozens that have played in team houses(including Demuslim, Idra and so on). Foreign players won't just magically become crazy good just because of the fact they live in a house with other players.
On January 14 2013 03:10 ROOTheognis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 02:57 ES.Genie wrote:On January 14 2013 02:10 ROOTheognis wrote:On January 14 2013 01:05 ES.Genie wrote:On January 14 2013 00:35 ROOTheognis wrote:On January 14 2013 00:17 Boucot wrote:On January 13 2013 20:38 Shinta) wrote:On January 13 2013 12:35 Seeker wrote:
:/
I think I called it when I said Disbanded TSL vs Dying coL. Actually I think there was already a post about this before you made that comment. On January 13 2013 17:23 ROOTheognis wrote:On January 13 2013 17:17 dcemuser wrote:On January 13 2013 13:18 aust77 wrote:
As much as I've been something of a cynic with regard to recent developments in the scene (disbandment of SlayerS+TSL, with Prime/NSH possibly next), this news is less outright negative for the health of SC2 as an e-sport. Considering how SlayerS and TSL disbanded, neither of those had much to do with the health of SC2 as an e-sport, lol. SlayerS was an explosion of the world's largest dramabomb, and TSL was because their players all left every time they got good. TSL had trouble even securing sponsors even with power-hitters like Shine, HyuN, Symbol, and Polt. Seems kind of like a problem to me >_< There doesn't seem to be enough sponsor backing in Korea but then again it might be due to the KeSPA-influx. I don't know TSL's situation before the KeSPA transition though but I don't think it was any better. That's mostly BECAUSE all TSL players left as soon as they got good.... SymboL got good but never showed any top finishes. HyuN is famous for being good, but aside from Fight Club, never showed top finishes. Shine was just known to be a solid player, but he wasn't famous. Polt was at his peak before he joined TSL. All of TSL's famous/huge players left as soon as they became good. Polt is the only acception as he came into TSL after he was already famous/huge. TSL had the best sponsorship and the first salaries in SC2 history. Their problem arose because all of the TSL players backstabbed TSL due to greed and other selfish reasons. If I were a sponsor I wouldn't want to sponsor a team that has a history of creating huge players that always leave to other teams, regardless of the high salary they make. (also why I wouldn't pick up Parting if I were a pro team manager) What the... Symbol got 2nd place at Iron Squid 1, HomeStory Cup VI and MLG Spring Arena 2, plus 2 GSL Code S RO8 and a top 6 at IPL5. HyuN got 2nd place last GSL, which is pretty high finish. TSL did a bad job at attracting sponsors. They had the entire 2012 to benefit the shape of Polt and Symbol (plus HyuN at the end of the year). Yeah, I agree. They had a stacked lineup that SHOULD have been able to secure a few decent sponsors. Polt is a huge fan favorite and a top contender for most foreign tournaments he attends. Sure they don't have an MVP who wins 4 GSL's but who the fuck does other than IM? Lol. It's either ridiculously hard for these teams to pick up a stable sponsor nowadays or they are THAT bad at the business side of things. I really think especially TSL and maybe even Slayers would not have disbanded if they have had a reasonable English-speaking manager. This is probably a bigger problem than finding sponsors itself. Oh and btw why is SC2 dying becaue a completely irrelevant gaming house in NA, that I have never even heard of before, is closing its doors? Look at the bigger picture. It might seem insignificant to you because you think it's "irrelevant" but it's essential to have regimented team houses in NA. It provides the means for players to go pro/train full-time so they can compete internationally, helps foster new talent and hopefully bring more sponsors in. These are all things that we want/need for e-sports to thrive over here. It's quite unfortunate that compLexity couldn't find a way to somehow make it more profitable and salvage their team house. Maybe I am just not well informed, but I don't know about any foreign player that made significant improvements in tournament results because of MoW or any of the NA houses. Imo if these houses are anything, then they are extremely expensive marketing stunts and everyone gets hyped about them, because the community seems to think just by emulating the Korean training system and pimping it up with lots of money, the foreign players will suddenly become bonjwas. They won't and especially not in training houses that aren't build for training, but to provide media content none cares about(streams and what not). This isn't a sign of SC2 dying, it's a sign that the foreign way of "fostering new talent"(aka a throw a shit ton of money around) failed pretty hard. I never said that the team houses that are around were perfected or operated correctly. Yes, there are problems with them. There needs to be a stricter format with practice + a qualified coach to help create + enforce this schedule. There's other items missing atm as well such as playing on the KR server and having enough practice partners (this is a big deal that is often overlooked http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/16gulf/col_shuts_down_gaming_house_rip_in_piece/c7vxjtz I can vouch for this as well as I was in the Quantic house). Another problem is the lack of mid-level tournaments that help develop players BEFORE they can step onto the international stage and compete with Koreans. There are many problems as to why foreigners can't just randomly compete with Koreans minus the few exceptions (Stephano/Scarlett). The disappearance of the team houses doesn't help the cause. There somehow needs to be a reassessment of how they operate and we can work on the other hurdles foreigners are having. Btw, MoW wasn't even a team house. It was just a disorganized association of gamers that were there just to ladder and stream so they could make money to pay to rent.
So can we agree that team houses closing isn't a good thing(but maybe they have to learn it this way...), but it is not a sign of Starcraft dying? It just shows that the current concept of foreign houses is really lackluster.
On January 14 2013 03:11 ROOTheognis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 03:10 ES.Genie wrote:On January 14 2013 03:00 chadissilent wrote:On January 14 2013 02:57 ES.Genie wrote:On January 14 2013 02:10 ROOTheognis wrote:On January 14 2013 01:05 ES.Genie wrote:On January 14 2013 00:35 ROOTheognis wrote:On January 14 2013 00:17 Boucot wrote:On January 13 2013 20:38 Shinta) wrote:On January 13 2013 12:35 Seeker wrote:
:/
I think I called it when I said Disbanded TSL vs Dying coL. Actually I think there was already a post about this before you made that comment. On January 13 2013 17:23 ROOTheognis wrote:
[quote]
TSL had trouble even securing sponsors even with power-hitters like Shine, HyuN, Symbol, and Polt. Seems kind of like a problem to me >_< There doesn't seem to be enough sponsor backing in Korea but then again it might be due to the KeSPA-influx. I don't know TSL's situation before the KeSPA transition though but I don't think it was any better. That's mostly BECAUSE all TSL players left as soon as they got good.... SymboL got good but never showed any top finishes. HyuN is famous for being good, but aside from Fight Club, never showed top finishes. Shine was just known to be a solid player, but he wasn't famous. Polt was at his peak before he joined TSL. All of TSL's famous/huge players left as soon as they became good. Polt is the only acception as he came into TSL after he was already famous/huge. TSL had the best sponsorship and the first salaries in SC2 history. Their problem arose because all of the TSL players backstabbed TSL due to greed and other selfish reasons. If I were a sponsor I wouldn't want to sponsor a team that has a history of creating huge players that always leave to other teams, regardless of the high salary they make. (also why I wouldn't pick up Parting if I were a pro team manager) What the... Symbol got 2nd place at Iron Squid 1, HomeStory Cup VI and MLG Spring Arena 2, plus 2 GSL Code S RO8 and a top 6 at IPL5. HyuN got 2nd place last GSL, which is pretty high finish. TSL did a bad job at attracting sponsors. They had the entire 2012 to benefit the shape of Polt and Symbol (plus HyuN at the end of the year). Yeah, I agree. They had a stacked lineup that SHOULD have been able to secure a few decent sponsors. Polt is a huge fan favorite and a top contender for most foreign tournaments he attends. Sure they don't have an MVP who wins 4 GSL's but who the fuck does other than IM? Lol. It's either ridiculously hard for these teams to pick up a stable sponsor nowadays or they are THAT bad at the business side of things. I really think especially TSL and maybe even Slayers would not have disbanded if they have had a reasonable English-speaking manager. This is probably a bigger problem than finding sponsors itself. Oh and btw why is SC2 dying becaue a completely irrelevant gaming house in NA, that I have never even heard of before, is closing its doors? Look at the bigger picture. It might seem insignificant to you because you think it's "irrelevant" but it's essential to have regimented team houses in NA. It provides the means for players to go pro/train full-time so they can compete internationally, helps foster new talent and hopefully bring more sponsors in. These are all things that we want/need for e-sports to thrive over here. It's quite unfortunate that compLexity couldn't find a way to somehow make it more profitable and salvage their team house. Maybe I am just not well informed, but I don't know about any foreign player that made significant improvements in tournament results because of MoW or any of the NA houses. Imo if these houses are anything, then they are extremely expensive marketing stunts and everyone gets hyped about them, because the community seems to think just by emulating the Korean training system and pimping it up with lots of money, the foreign players will suddenly become bonjwas. They won't and especially not in training houses that aren't build for training, but to provide media content none cares about(streams and what not). This isn't a sign of SC2 dying, it's a sign that the foreign way of "fostering new talent"(aka a throw a shit ton of money around) failed pretty hard. goswser and Sasquatch seem to have done pretty well in the coL house. Ok, there is this one guy, goswer, that just had/has this good run in IronSquid. Never heard of Sasquatch. But still, that's like one player out of dozens that have played in team houses(including Demuslim, Idra and so on). Foreign players won't just magically become crazy good just because of the fact they live in a house with other players. You underestimate what a team house can do. People for the most part just can't ladder on NA and compete with Code S Koreans
I don't undererstimate what they can do, if they are run well and the players are coached properly. But afaik most of the foreign houses are neither well run/organized nor are the players properly coached, which makes them just a couple of guys living and laddering together.
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On January 14 2013 03:10 ES.Genie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 03:00 chadissilent wrote:On January 14 2013 02:57 ES.Genie wrote:On January 14 2013 02:10 ROOTheognis wrote:On January 14 2013 01:05 ES.Genie wrote:On January 14 2013 00:35 ROOTheognis wrote:On January 14 2013 00:17 Boucot wrote:On January 13 2013 20:38 Shinta) wrote:On January 13 2013 12:35 Seeker wrote:
:/
I think I called it when I said Disbanded TSL vs Dying coL. Actually I think there was already a post about this before you made that comment. On January 13 2013 17:23 ROOTheognis wrote:On January 13 2013 17:17 dcemuser wrote:
[quote]
Considering how SlayerS and TSL disbanded, neither of those had much to do with the health of SC2 as an e-sport, lol. SlayerS was an explosion of the world's largest dramabomb, and TSL was because their players all left every time they got good. TSL had trouble even securing sponsors even with power-hitters like Shine, HyuN, Symbol, and Polt. Seems kind of like a problem to me >_< There doesn't seem to be enough sponsor backing in Korea but then again it might be due to the KeSPA-influx. I don't know TSL's situation before the KeSPA transition though but I don't think it was any better. That's mostly BECAUSE all TSL players left as soon as they got good.... SymboL got good but never showed any top finishes. HyuN is famous for being good, but aside from Fight Club, never showed top finishes. Shine was just known to be a solid player, but he wasn't famous. Polt was at his peak before he joined TSL. All of TSL's famous/huge players left as soon as they became good. Polt is the only acception as he came into TSL after he was already famous/huge. TSL had the best sponsorship and the first salaries in SC2 history. Their problem arose because all of the TSL players backstabbed TSL due to greed and other selfish reasons. If I were a sponsor I wouldn't want to sponsor a team that has a history of creating huge players that always leave to other teams, regardless of the high salary they make. (also why I wouldn't pick up Parting if I were a pro team manager) What the... Symbol got 2nd place at Iron Squid 1, HomeStory Cup VI and MLG Spring Arena 2, plus 2 GSL Code S RO8 and a top 6 at IPL5. HyuN got 2nd place last GSL, which is pretty high finish. TSL did a bad job at attracting sponsors. They had the entire 2012 to benefit the shape of Polt and Symbol (plus HyuN at the end of the year). Yeah, I agree. They had a stacked lineup that SHOULD have been able to secure a few decent sponsors. Polt is a huge fan favorite and a top contender for most foreign tournaments he attends. Sure they don't have an MVP who wins 4 GSL's but who the fuck does other than IM? Lol. It's either ridiculously hard for these teams to pick up a stable sponsor nowadays or they are THAT bad at the business side of things. I really think especially TSL and maybe even Slayers would not have disbanded if they have had a reasonable English-speaking manager. This is probably a bigger problem than finding sponsors itself. Oh and btw why is SC2 dying becaue a completely irrelevant gaming house in NA, that I have never even heard of before, is closing its doors? Look at the bigger picture. It might seem insignificant to you because you think it's "irrelevant" but it's essential to have regimented team houses in NA. It provides the means for players to go pro/train full-time so they can compete internationally, helps foster new talent and hopefully bring more sponsors in. These are all things that we want/need for e-sports to thrive over here. It's quite unfortunate that compLexity couldn't find a way to somehow make it more profitable and salvage their team house. Maybe I am just not well informed, but I don't know about any foreign player that made significant improvements in tournament results because of MoW or any of the NA houses. Imo if these houses are anything, then they are extremely expensive marketing stunts and everyone gets hyped about them, because the community seems to think just by emulating the Korean training system and pimping it up with lots of money, the foreign players will suddenly become bonjwas. They won't and especially not in training houses that aren't build for training, but to provide media content none cares about(streams and what not). This isn't a sign of SC2 dying, it's a sign that the foreign way of "fostering new talent"(aka a throw a shit ton of money around) failed pretty hard. goswser and Sasquatch seem to have done pretty well in the coL house. Ok, there is this one guy, goswer, that just had/has this good run in IronSquid. Never heard of Sasquatch. But still, that's like one player out of dozens that have played in team houses(including Demuslim, Idra and so on). Foreign players won't just magically become crazy good just because of the fact they live in a house with other players.
You underestimate what a team house can do. People for the most part just can't ladder on NA and compete with Code S Koreans
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On January 14 2013 03:10 ES.Genie wrote:
But afaik most of the foreign houses are neither well run/organized nor are the players properly coached, which makes them just a couple of guys living and laddering together.
Foreign Team Houses are a concept still in infancy.
The Koreans have had a decade to get all the kinks worked out, and they're not exactly forthcoming with all the details.
As far as foreign team-houses go, there are currently only two in operation:
The EG Lair, which serves largely as a home-base for the brand first, and a training facility for the players second.
The Clarity Gaming Training Facility, which is still in it's opening stages.
There's only so much I can say about the Complexity House, or the Quantic House without sharing information I shouldn't, but suffice to say they weren't "failed ventures" because the players didn't show immediate dramatic leaps in skill. There were numerous other factors involved.
The other thing you have to consider is what a team house allows a team with Korean players to do; it allows the team to eliminate the continual cost of international flights from Korea, as well as allowing more access to content with the players.
To consider Ministry of Win a "Team House" is laughable. There is no team involved, it's LITERALLY just people living together laddering.
TL;DR
Team houses aren't meant to show immediate dramatic improvement in players. Look at Korea, it doesn't happen there either. There are too many variables to consider when evaluating the goals of a team house.
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On January 14 2013 02:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 00:14 Soybanzai wrote:
You can rent 2 bedroom apartment in Ohio for $450 a month, and stick 4 players in it... no reason to have a huge house to train in.
There are so many reasons why this is a terrible idea I can't even start. Even for free, I would never live like that. You cannot just shove players in front of computers and tell them to practice. The korean gaming houses are a great concept, but it is not the living space that makes them good, it is the number of coaches, players and overall infrastructure that makes them so good. The reason US soccer teams lose to every European and South American soccer teams is not because of the quality of their stadium or practice facility. And it has nothing to do with the number of hours they practice.
You mean, because soccer is not popular here at all so the talent pool is so tiny because all the athletic people are playing football, basketball, baseball, or even hockey instead.
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I know Liquid'Tyler has said in the past that you need to train in a house full time for 6 months to a year before you have seen improvement from being in the team house. And that is assuming optimal conditions in a korean training house with the best practice environment. But for some reason people on teamliquid expect 3-4 months in a foreign team house will turn no names into tournament winners.
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On January 14 2013 04:03 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 03:10 ES.Genie wrote:
But afaik most of the foreign houses are neither well run/organized nor are the players properly coached, which makes them just a couple of guys living and laddering together. Foreign Team Houses are a concept still in infancy. The Koreans have had a decade to get all the kinks worked out, and they're not exactly forthcoming with all the details. As far as foreign team-houses go, there are currently only two in operation: The EG Lair, which serves largely as a home-base for the brand first, and a training facility for the players second. The Clarity Gaming Training Facility, which is still in it's opening stages. There's only so much I can say about the Complexity House, or the Quantic House without sharing information I shouldn't, but suffice to say they weren't "failed ventures" because the players didn't show immediate dramatic leaps in skill. There were numerous other factors involved. The other thing you have to consider is what a team house allows a team with Korean players to do; it allows the team to eliminate the continual cost of international flights from Korea, as well as allowing more access to content with the players. To consider Ministry of Win a "Team House" is laughable. There is no team involved, it's LITERALLY just people living together laddering. TL;DR Team houses aren't meant to show immediate dramatic improvement in players. Look at Korea, it doesn't happen there either. There are too many variables to consider when evaluating the goals of a team house.
Millenium also have a team house. But it's more than just a training house since writers, video editors and casters are working there as well. You seem quite narrow-minded on that topic...
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On January 14 2013 04:20 Cybren wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 02:27 Plansix wrote:On January 14 2013 00:14 Soybanzai wrote:
You can rent 2 bedroom apartment in Ohio for $450 a month, and stick 4 players in it... no reason to have a huge house to train in.
There are so many reasons why this is a terrible idea I can't even start. Even for free, I would never live like that. You cannot just shove players in front of computers and tell them to practice. The korean gaming houses are a great concept, but it is not the living space that makes them good, it is the number of coaches, players and overall infrastructure that makes them so good. The reason US soccer teams lose to every European and South American soccer teams is not because of the quality of their stadium or practice facility. And it has nothing to do with the number of hours they practice. You mean, because soccer is not popular here at all so the talent pool is so tiny because all the athletic people are playing football, basketball, baseball, or even hockey instead.
And even if their was a highly talented player(and there likely is), an NA soccer team would lack the infrastructure to find and take advantage of that player fully. In most high level professional sports there is an entire career in scouting out new talent. NA esports teams has none of these things, while the Korean teams are already set up and ready to train up a new player. Even with that, the Korean SC2 teams have their own problems, like not being able to fund themselves or learn that paying players is key to keeping them.
It is a growth market and some teams are go through a trial and error period. People cannot sing the death of SC2 song every time a team goes "fuck, this rent isn't worth it. We need to find a better practice location." The team house is a great idea, but so is making players move to a specific area and renting an office for them to practice in, while the owner runs the team out of the same office. Getting coaches to help direct the players training would also help.
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On January 13 2013 12:17 Fionn wrote:
So Azubu is out on Polt, EG or TL is unlikely, and Complexity closed their house.
Incoming Polt.Polt.
Blight.Polt! Make it happen Blackfoger you can do it!!!!
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On January 14 2013 04:34 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 04:03 VirgilSC2 wrote:On January 14 2013 03:10 ES.Genie wrote:
But afaik most of the foreign houses are neither well run/organized nor are the players properly coached, which makes them just a couple of guys living and laddering together. Foreign Team Houses are a concept still in infancy. The Koreans have had a decade to get all the kinks worked out, and they're not exactly forthcoming with all the details. As far as foreign team-houses go, there are currently only two in operation: The EG Lair, which serves largely as a home-base for the brand first, and a training facility for the players second. The Clarity Gaming Training Facility, which is still in it's opening stages. There's only so much I can say about the Complexity House, or the Quantic House without sharing information I shouldn't, but suffice to say they weren't "failed ventures" because the players didn't show immediate dramatic leaps in skill. There were numerous other factors involved. The other thing you have to consider is what a team house allows a team with Korean players to do; it allows the team to eliminate the continual cost of international flights from Korea, as well as allowing more access to content with the players. To consider Ministry of Win a "Team House" is laughable. There is no team involved, it's LITERALLY just people living together laddering. TL;DR Team houses aren't meant to show immediate dramatic improvement in players. Look at Korea, it doesn't happen there either. There are too many variables to consider when evaluating the goals of a team house. Millenium also have a team house. But it's more than just a training house since writers, video editors and casters are working there as well. You seem quite narrow-minded on that topic...
Sorry, my mistake. Three* foreign team houses.
I'm not quite sure how that makes me "quite narrow-minded" on the concept of foreign team houses, considering I operate one and all.
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Well the team itself wasn't doing anything to get themselves known in the Esports community. No big surprises here
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On January 14 2013 05:10 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 04:34 Otolia wrote:On January 14 2013 04:03 VirgilSC2 wrote:On January 14 2013 03:10 ES.Genie wrote:
But afaik most of the foreign houses are neither well run/organized nor are the players properly coached, which makes them just a couple of guys living and laddering together. Foreign Team Houses are a concept still in infancy. The Koreans have had a decade to get all the kinks worked out, and they're not exactly forthcoming with all the details. As far as foreign team-houses go, there are currently only two in operation: The EG Lair, which serves largely as a home-base for the brand first, and a training facility for the players second. The Clarity Gaming Training Facility, which is still in it's opening stages. There's only so much I can say about the Complexity House, or the Quantic House without sharing information I shouldn't, but suffice to say they weren't "failed ventures" because the players didn't show immediate dramatic leaps in skill. There were numerous other factors involved. The other thing you have to consider is what a team house allows a team with Korean players to do; it allows the team to eliminate the continual cost of international flights from Korea, as well as allowing more access to content with the players. To consider Ministry of Win a "Team House" is laughable. There is no team involved, it's LITERALLY just people living together laddering. TL;DR Team houses aren't meant to show immediate dramatic improvement in players. Look at Korea, it doesn't happen there either. There are too many variables to consider when evaluating the goals of a team house. Millenium also have a team house. But it's more than just a training house since writers, video editors and casters are working there as well. You seem quite narrow-minded on that topic... Sorry, my mistake. Three* foreign team houses. I'm not quite sure how that makes me "quite narrow-minded" on the concept of foreign team houses, considering I operate one and all.
We are all, if we weren't we would run our own teamhouses by now instead of posting our opinions about it.
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The small teams, with almost no success, can't survive nowadays, if there isn't a millionare behind the team. you need success and prize money to stay at top. even TSL couldn't stand it in korea. If Azubu won't win anything, it won't last very long.
I think team mousesports could be the next team or teams like apex esport or AAA. (sorry for my bad english).
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well they said when they opened they would have almost all players streaming and have content but since than they have had little to none. col hasnt been the same since cgs
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On January 14 2013 05:47 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 05:10 VirgilSC2 wrote:On January 14 2013 04:34 Otolia wrote:On January 14 2013 04:03 VirgilSC2 wrote:On January 14 2013 03:10 ES.Genie wrote:
But afaik most of the foreign houses are neither well run/organized nor are the players properly coached, which makes them just a couple of guys living and laddering together. Foreign Team Houses are a concept still in infancy. The Koreans have had a decade to get all the kinks worked out, and they're not exactly forthcoming with all the details. As far as foreign team-houses go, there are currently only two in operation: The EG Lair, which serves largely as a home-base for the brand first, and a training facility for the players second. The Clarity Gaming Training Facility, which is still in it's opening stages. There's only so much I can say about the Complexity House, or the Quantic House without sharing information I shouldn't, but suffice to say they weren't "failed ventures" because the players didn't show immediate dramatic leaps in skill. There were numerous other factors involved. The other thing you have to consider is what a team house allows a team with Korean players to do; it allows the team to eliminate the continual cost of international flights from Korea, as well as allowing more access to content with the players. To consider Ministry of Win a "Team House" is laughable. There is no team involved, it's LITERALLY just people living together laddering. TL;DR Team houses aren't meant to show immediate dramatic improvement in players. Look at Korea, it doesn't happen there either. There are too many variables to consider when evaluating the goals of a team house. Millenium also have a team house. But it's more than just a training house since writers, video editors and casters are working there as well. You seem quite narrow-minded on that topic... Sorry, my mistake. Three* foreign team houses. I'm not quite sure how that makes me "quite narrow-minded" on the concept of foreign team houses, considering I operate one and all. We are all, if we weren't we would run our own teamhouses by now instead of posting our opinions about it.
I think you missed something there.
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On January 14 2013 05:48 JtoK wrote:
The small teams, with almost no success, can't survive nowadays, if there isn't a millionare behind the team. you need success and prize money to stay at top. even TSL couldn't stand it in korea. If Azubu won't win anything, it won't last very long.
I think team mousesports could be the next team or teams like apex esport or AAA. (sorry for my bad english).
apex disbanded like two weeks after it formed, lol
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On January 14 2013 01:20 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 22:40 fortheGG wrote:On January 13 2013 21:43 Integra wrote:On January 13 2013 12:31 Shinespark wrote:
SC2's death is coming a little faster every day... Didn't you read? The reason they closed it down cause of lack of Marketing, they had planned to release media content which would support the financial side of the teamhouse, much like what EG and TeamLiquid does. If this was 2011 they probably wouldn't have closed it. At this point in time, there is no reason to invest in a progaming house for foreigners, as all you get are low stream numbers, low view counts and zero results. I don't want to join the bandwagon regarding sc2's death, but Col's house highlights the situation of teams that aren't EG or TL, teams that do not have (seemingly) endless pockets. There are plenty of good reasons as long as you know how to run a company, Just look at EG and TL, their players are nothing special among the top of of pro players. There are actually only two NA teams that understands how to run a business because that's what running a team is, a business. The other teams are terrible at marketing themselves, their products (in this case the players) and to highlight their sponsors. The amount of top players that can make it is saturated at this point but not amount of teams. And the only reason why EG and TL still are running is not because they have money but because they are generating money. TotalBiscuits SC2 team won't die out anytime soon mainly because TB is generating money from his ability to promote and advertise with youtube. And why the hell shouldn't the other teams go down? In some areas, like the IT and information industry, which we are in, the failure rate within the first 5 years is as high as 95% The reason why these teams fails are not because of SC2, it's because they don't know shit about business and therefore they close down, this happens in every other single business niche, why would SC2 be any different?. It's not a a amazingly huge project. You get a house, good players and then you somehow promote them and their sponsors, that's it! Now, I'm not saying its easy, what I'm pointing out is that it's very doable. And there are even people out there who sells "crap in a box" which essentially is bullshit and the only reason people are paying for it is because their marketing is so dammn good, that sometimes, even if you don't have anything of real value you can still make a profit because you know how to market something incredible well.
Very good statement!
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There just aren't enough viewers yet to support team houses in esports. More viewers = more sponsor interest = more money. Simple concept really.
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On January 14 2013 06:13 AnomalySC2 wrote:
There just aren't enough viewers yet to support team houses in esports. More viewers = more sponsor interest = more money. Simple concept really.
I don't think it's necessarily the number of viewers that's the problem. I think it's just completely pointless to setup and operate a team house outside of Korea. None of the team houses that operate in North America or Europe have produced any truly meaningful results or growth within the players. More than once we've seen players drastically improve from even relatively short stays in Korea. Simply you cant train on NA ladder and complete with the KR ladder.
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EPT
