How many of us are sick of seeing the same maps being picked up tournament after tournament?
I can not bear to see another full year of tournaments playing the same maps constantly. 2013 is bringing us HoTS and with all these balance and unit changes, we should also see map pool changes as well. Most of us are sick of seeing the same maps being played over and over again. Why are Antiga, Daybreak, Shakuras and TalDarim Altar still being played?
IPL --------------
I was looking forward to 2013, hoping that the bigger tournaments would really spice of their map pools because change is coming. Coming up soon is none other then a sc2 giant, the IPTL! They just posted their premier in the tournament section, niiiice, IPTL is back! I can't wait to see what map changes they might bring into the 2013 season. annnnnnnnd guess what. I got let down. Take a look:
Why do we still have 3/4 of this map pool? These maps have either been around for years or have been proven to be imbalanced. So why are they still in the map pool? Worse case scenario you pick up a new map, something fresh and say it turns out imbalanced. Well, Metro is imbalanced for Zerg? Ohana is WonWonWon map? Entombed is 11/11 map? Players can veto if they absolutely need to. Also, it's your team league, if you bring in a new map that is imbalanced for a certain race then maybe (just like in proleague!) you'll see the teams only use certain races on certain maps.
MLG --------------
MLG is another huge tournament that can easily force new maps in 2013 for their tournaments to try to spice things up. I hope they don't let us down because if we get another year of Antiga, Daybreak, Entombed, Metropolis, Ohana or TDA I don't know how much more sc2 I will want to watch from MLG. (Did you know I just listed off their entire map pool from the fall championship minus Cloud Kingdom?) Hell, it was just last Summer, MLG was still using Shakuras in their map pool. Yes, the same map that was around when WoL came out. Glad I got to watch the same map get played for 2+ years!
IEM --------------
At least we can rely on IEM to make some changes right??? Nope, their first tournament of 2013 and it's still the same old map pool. Well, at least they are using whirlwind, that's a little different right? /yawn
Antiga Shipyard Cloud Kingdom Daybreak Entombed Valley Metropolis Ohana Whirlwind
Proleague --------------
I'm a map maker for sc2 and when Proleague released their new maps they were using for their season, my jaw hit the floor. I thought they were trash. Some of the worst imbalanced maps ever. Yet guess what? I, and many others, love watching games played on these maps because they aren't the same maps we've seen for years. They aren't the same strategies used for years. People try out innovated strategies on them. People Cheese, People Macro, People entertain on them. Hell, when TDA, Antiga or Ohana come up next on Proleague I minimize it (unless it's a player I really want to watch) because guess what, who gives a shit about TDA? That map hit it's prime 2 years ago, let it die already. Ohana? Great, WonWonWon incoming! That's only been happening for a year now and at this rate we've got at least another year (maybe 2!) before it will die off.
GSL --------------
GSL has been the best tournament to watch, not only because it has the highest level of competition but because it actually changes it map pool....slowly....I still believe they need to get rid of Entombed, Antiga and Daybreak and bring in 3 new maps, but at least they bring in something new every season. I'm looking forward to their announcement of their 2013 Season map pool and I hope we're not disappointed with the same maps we've seen for years.
NASL --------------
NASL was actually fairly good with their map pool imo, they changed it up a good chunk season to season. Just looking from Season 3 to Season 4 for instance the only maps that stayed the same were Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak & Ohana. I'm hoping Season 5 we see more changes to the map pool, maybe get rid of CK, Daybreak and Ohana this time which means they'd completely change their map pool in 2 seasons, which is great. I just hope they keep updating their maps and don't freeze their map pools for the next few seasons because even though they changed up their map pool almost completely, they changed it to maps we've already been seeing for years.
--------------
There are plenty of maps out there and plenty of websites you can use to check out these new maps. That or just PMing the people that make the map threads on TL or Reddit and I'm sure they will be more then happy to help you out. Check out:
http://sc2melee.net/maps/
It's a great website and easily let's you browse through maps and see what people think of them. Hell, a tournament could (and should) randomly take 3 of the top 10 rated maps here and add them to their map pools and think of how much that would spice up your tournament. I hope the bigger organizations this year add some more flavor to their map pools rather then just giving us what works. Viewers and players are getting sick of watching and playing on the same maps, so please, 2013 is here, give us something new.
TLDR Tournaments, replace your terrible map pools and add some new flavor.
Thank you so damn much for this post. I will continue to bump and upvote every post I see on this topic. The map pool is holding starcraft 2. Because of Kespa's new maps (well, remakes) I actually payed to watch Proleague despite not having much time for it, just to show I support new maps. Though TDA and Ohana are a pain, I suppose they wanted to include one or two ladder maps to add some familiarity.
I do feel that the current map pool is a huge factor in holding back players and the community from finding new ways to play the game and push the meta forward with new ideas and ways to work things.
They should change maps faster. Maps like Antiga Shipyard or Ohana are just bad for certain matchups. There must be a lot of maps, which are more balanced and new/better for our eyes.
On January 03 2013 09:56 Abstinence wrote: So true. I really hope tournaments try to phase out a lot of the 3-4base turtle maps.
I don't even really mind if there are 3-4 base turtle maps in the map pool, I'd just like them to be updated constantly. When one of the 3-4 base turtle maps is Metropolis and it's been in map pools since Jan 2012 (exactly 1 year.) it gets extremely boring to watch. Heck, even though Whirlwind is a 3-4 base turtle map, since it was something fresh it was much more enjoyable to watch over Metropolis. Although, even now I believe Whirlwind should slowly get phased out and heck, maybe even replaced with a different 3-4 base turtle map.
On January 03 2013 09:56 Abstinence wrote: So true. I really hope tournaments try to phase out a lot of the 3-4base turtle maps.
I don't even really mind if there are 3-4 base turtle maps in the map pool, I'd just like them to be updated constantly. When one of the 3-4 base turtle maps is Metropolis and it's been in map pools since Jan 2012 (exactly 1 year.) it gets extremely boring to watch. Heck, even though Whirlwind is a 3-4 base turtle map, since it was something fresh it was much more enjoyable to watch then Metropolis. Although, even now I believe Whirlwind should slowly get phased out.
What would you consider the optimal lifespan for a map supposing that there are no important balance issues? Personally I would say between 4 to 10 months depending on how many differents playstyles are commonly used.
Before I even opened this I was hoping it would be about maps. Thank you good sir ^^
You see all these "the sky is falling" threads but few really ever try to examine how god awfully stagnant the map pools have become as a reason for declining interest in sc2. I really have to commend Proleague for growing some balls and trying to innovate a bit.
Couldn't agree more. Of course, I don't want a ton of different maps for every tournament(to much stress for the players). But a fresh new pool would be great to see. I really like watching Proleague with their new maps.
be careful with the wishes couse next season we may have each tournament-league to have a complitely different map pool, which would not be so good for multileague players
At this point I think they just don't care. Hundreds of hours have been spent trying to explain to them why their maps suck and all we get is shitty excuses. I have frankly gave up at this point.
I'd imagine the trend among the general public/community would continue as far as wanting new maps. I echo the thoughts on if the new maps are imba, who cares? The old ones have proven to be exploited by now when you give people years on end to play the same maps over and over.
...Only one reason I don't see this being realistic. I think there's little to no chance we get many new maps in the near future. The expansion pack coming...I have a feeling we won't see dramatic change until that comes out. I get the impression map making for WoL is on the decline.
I remember Day9, Nony, among others, used to comment and ask tournaments (through shows, not directly) to only use a small number, of familiar maps. We get this and we're not happy?
I do agree though, these maps are getting quite boring.
I feel another aspect of introducing fresh maps into a league, especially a team league, is that players have to make a concerted effort to become familiar with the new maps or else perform badly. In a sense, players have to respect your league more because the familiar grind on the ladder will not work because these maps will not be your regular ladder maps.
On January 03 2013 10:03 BrokenMirage wrote: What would you consider the optimal lifespan for a map supposing that there are no important balance issues? Personally I would say between 4 to 10 months depending on how many differents playstyles are commonly used.
Yeah, I could see somewhere between 4 and 10 months depending on the map. For instance Cloud Kingdom I'm not complaining about too much because you can see so many different playstyles on this map that it is usually must more enjoyable to watch. Maps like Metropolis though just get extremely boring after a long time, so a shorter time they are in the pool the better.
On January 03 2013 10:05 Vertitto wrote: be careful with the wishes couse next season we may have each tournament-league to have a complitely different map pool, which would not be so good for multileague players
This could happen, but then maybe certain players would practice harder for certain map pools to hopefully do better at the specific tournaments. Also, practicing on maps isn't as tough as it use to be, especially with pretty much all pro players are on teams to practice if they need it.
On January 03 2013 10:10 Zenbrez wrote: I remember Day9, Nony, among others, used to comment and ask tournaments (through shows, not directly) to only use a small number, of familiar maps. We get this and we're not happy?
I do agree though, these maps are getting quite boring.
It's fine to get tournaments to use a small number of familiar maps, but when it's the same small number of familiar maps for the past year it gets very dull.
On January 03 2013 10:10 Zenbrez wrote: I remember Day9, Nony, among others, used to comment and ask tournaments (through shows, not directly) to only use a small number, of familiar maps. We get this and we're not happy?
I do agree though, these maps are getting quite boring.
I mean there has to be a limit. Daybreak has been in the gsl since August of 2011.....
It was a beautiful map for a long time. Many loved it. I foamed out the mouth when it came to the ladder. But enough is enough. It's now going the way of metalopolis and shakuras.
Antiga and Entombed iirc have been floating around in leagues since the beginning of 2012. Time to refresh.
Tal'darim still rears its head since being introduced in early 2011.
Is the map making scene really so bad we can't find suitable replacements at this point? I think not
We desperately need new maps both on ladder and in tournaments. Daybreak may have been a hugely impressive map but that was what, a year ago? We need more maps, and more variety to the maps. The new maps (and the BW remakes) in Proleague may be kinda gimmicky but at least it is a change.
Pros don't have the time if all tournaments had their "own" maps. Leagues can't just take a new map "her derp this is good" and then end up with a terrible unbalanced map.
At the same time more maps are needed, different maps. 2012 was pretty bad in that regard if you don't count the Kespa maps.
On January 03 2013 10:22 Tobblish wrote: Pros don't have the time if all tournaments had their "own" maps. Leagues can't just take a new map "her derp this is good" and then end up with a terrible unbalanced map.
At the same time more maps are needed, different maps. 2012 was pretty bad in that regard if you don't count the Kespa maps.
Why can a map not be imbalanced to figure out it is? Happened all the time in BW, worked fine there.
I could not agree more, in fact I find myself only watching the marquee matches in tournaments because the map pool just kills me. The only laddering I do is in the beta, only because they have new maps; I simply can't stand playing or watching much more of these stale maps.
At this point I would take new maps even if all of them came with imbalances.
For NASL, we let the players vote on the map pool to take maps out/put new maps in. They took out one of the new maps we introduced (and rightfully so since it wasn't that good). Players generally dislike unfamiliar maps and if they don't get preparation, cheese builds and poor quality games often show up.
Its very risky for a tournament like MLG to be a trend setter of maps. Better for GSL and Pro league since that have time to prepare.
On January 03 2013 10:34 FrodaN wrote: For NASL, we let the players vote on the map pool to take maps out/put new maps in. They took out one of the new maps we introduced (and rightfully so since it wasn't that good). Players generally dislike unfamiliar maps and if they don't get preparation, cheese builds and poor quality games often show up.
Its very risky for a tournament like MLG to be a trend setter of maps. Better for GSL and Pro league since that have time to prepare.
I personally see it as the players fault if they are unfamiliar with the map pool. You're signing up for a tournament at a chance to win a huge amount of money, there shouldn't be any maps that you are unfamiliar with. Also, many of these tournaments do allow vetos so if you really are unfamiliar with a map, more then likely you won't have to play it since you can veto it. Unless of course you're in the grand finals, which at that point you should have to play every map in the map pool.
MLG's Fall map pool was:
MLG Antiga Shipyard MLG ESV Cloud Kingdom MLG Daybreak MLG Entombed Valley MLG Metropolis MLG Ohana MLG Tal'Darim Altar
Would it really be bad for MLG to get rid of say Antiga, Metropolis and TDA and replace them with 3 new maps? They'd still have the other 4 to "fall" back on yet it'd bring newer maps in to spice up the map pool.
NASL was actually fairly good with their map pool imo, they changed it up a good chunk season to season. Just looking from Season 3 to Season 4 for instance the only maps that stayed the same were Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak & Ohana. I'm hoping Season 5 we see more changes to the map pool, maybe get rid of CK, Daybreak and Ohana this time which means they'd completely change their map pool in 2 seasons, which is great. It gets shitty when we still see TDA after 2 years, we still see Daybreak after 2 years, we still see Metropolis after 1 year.
Weird that people are still scared of the possibility of an imbalanced map when maps like Metropolis are still getting used (go go zergs)
The bigger issue is that Blizzard doesn't do ANYTHING (and lies about it) with the map making community. So many map makers have quit because there is no way for your map to get played or properly tested.
On January 03 2013 10:10 Zenbrez wrote: I remember Day9, Nony, among others, used to comment and ask tournaments (through shows, not directly) to only use a small number, of familiar maps. We get this and we're not happy?
I do agree though, these maps are getting quite boring.
Well, tournaments still aren't using 5 maps, usually seven. If they were, similar to ESVDiamond's thread on making a tournament map pool, hopefully tournaments would add newer maps more often, not less. Adding one new map each season/tournament is a lot less scary for pro players (who are almost always timid of new maps) when there's only 5 total maps rather than 7 in the pool.
I watch SC2 more than anyone I personally know, I've bought HD streams for IPL/MLG/Proleague/etc this year, but I don't know if I can keep watching every major tournament without them refreshing their map pools. And it can't be a one time thing. These tournaments need to have it figured out how often they should be refreshing their maps, and have it done before the community starts getting tired of the same maps, not after.
Blizzard of course should take this to heart as well.
On January 03 2013 10:57 Finnz wrote: What ever happened to ESV?
We are still around. Actually why we have been so quiet is due to the problem in the OP. It's pointless to make WoL maps as soon as the HotS beta hit as no one would use them, and there is no major HotS tournaments yet (not part of the OP, just relevant).
The most exciting part of watching tournaments, were those moments when a new strategy was being executed. Now, every game I see, I've seen all of the all ins, I've seen macro play on those maps hundreds of times. New maps bring that excitement of not knowing what is going to happen, what a player is doing, and it brings back the joy in seeing a strategy never before seen. It makes the tournament memorable. For example, I'm sure everyone still remembers the MLG where SlayerS demonstrated their blue-flame hellion builds and tore everyone apart, I sure remember that tournament. However, I've already blanked on the last three(?) which were won by infestor/BL vs pre-hive timing like the thousand games on all of the same maps that we've all seen hundreds of times.
On January 03 2013 10:57 Finnz wrote: What ever happened to ESV?
We are still around. Actually why we have been so quiet is due to the problem in the OP. It's pointless to make WoL maps as soon as the HotS beta hit as no one would use them, and there is no major HotS tournaments yet (not part of the OP, just relevant).
I hope to see more ESV weekly or whatevers. There were some awesome maps in those little tournaments. I didn't get to watch them much this year because of work though =(
But yeah, looking forward to the HotS maps from you guys specifically!
PS: please use more diverse team colors. Red vs. Blue every damn game gets old FAST. At least it's not so bad with PL as we also have orange and green.
I agree that we are seeing the same maps over and over again but since the the map making community is so small there is not much we can do. Good post though
On January 03 2013 11:58 Al Bundy wrote: Good post, thanks for making it.
PS: please use more diverse team colors. Red vs. Blue every damn game gets old FAST. At least it's not so bad with PL as we also have orange and green.
Stephano vs. Kas! (Maybe I'm remembering wrong but doesn't Kas always try to pick a certain color like Stephano picks pink?)
Daybreak has been the best map in SC2. Even though imbalances are starting to show it has been by far the map that delivered most probably in all of WoL. However even a map that amazing needs to be phased out after as many games and as many tournaments have used it. If a map that good needs to be phased out than what chance do maps like Entombed, Antiga, Ohana and maybe even CK have.
On January 03 2013 11:58 Al Bundy wrote: Good post, thanks for making it.
PS: please use more diverse team colors. Red vs. Blue every damn game gets old FAST. At least it's not so bad with PL as we also have orange and green.
Stephano vs. Kas! (Maybe I'm remembering wrong but doesn't Kas always try to pick a certain color like Stephano picks pink?)
PartinG pretty much always picks Pink as his color too.
On January 03 2013 10:10 Zenbrez wrote: I remember Day9, Nony, among others, used to comment and ask tournaments (through shows, not directly) to only use a small number, of familiar maps. We get this and we're not happy?
I do agree though, these maps are getting quite boring.
Well, tournaments still aren't using 5 maps, usually seven. If they were, similar to ESVDiamond's thread on making a tournament map pool, hopefully tournaments would add newer maps more often, not less. Adding one new map each season/tournament is a lot less scary for pro players (who are almost always timid of new maps) when there's only 5 total maps rather than 7 in the pool.
I watch SC2 more than anyone I personally know, I've bought HD streams for IPL/MLG/Proleague/etc this year, but I don't know if I can keep watching every major tournament without them refreshing their map pools. And it can't be a one time thing. These tournaments need to have it figured out how often they should be refreshing their maps, and have it done before the community starts getting tired of the same maps, not after.
Blizzard of course should take this to heart as well.
completely agree
im sure those "pro players who said they wanted reliable small map pools" certainly didnt mean they wanted it to be THIS BAD where the same maps are used virtually forever until the game dies due to boredome due to the same generic maps being played over and over again
I doubt you can find a pro that wouldnt find it refreshing to have the map pool get freshed up and possibly change every 4 months. Every 4 months blizzard should completely REMOVE all maps in the ladder pool, and replace with 8 brand new maps.
Sadly blizzard just isnt that smart. And blizzards mapmaking team isnt big enough to do that.
Im sure if blizzard came out with some kind of fan-news release saying they will now completely destroy all ladder maps and replace them with community maps every 4 months chosen by community voting, im sure they would have hundreds of more skilled mapmakers working for free trying to make amazing maps
its really in the power of blizzard to take the proper actions to spurr up the mapmaking community
I see nothing wrong with every 4 months the ladder getting a completely new pool. Then the tournaments use the most popular maps, etc.
On January 03 2013 12:36 Dontkillme wrote: Proleague is doing fine in terms of maps. They are innovating. It is the foreign tourneys that need to switch it up.
Foreign as in outside Korea? If that's the case gsl is possibly a bigger culprit since they're the trend setters in what the foreign tournaments use as the maps need to be familiar to the players (give or take a map or two). IPL at least tries a new map here and there. iirc they started using Atlantis before gsl. Turned out to be a crap map but at least it was experimented with.
I'm not trying to jump too far up there asses as they probably won't finalize the pool until the code S groups come out. Not expecting much though.
And don't get me started on osl. Dear god was that shit boring...
On January 03 2013 09:47 BretZ wrote: Thank you so damn much for this post. I will continue to bump and upvote every post I see on this topic. The map pool is holding starcraft 2. Because of Kespa's new maps (well, remakes) I actually payed to watch Proleague despite not having much time for it, just to show I support new maps. Though TDA and Ohana are a pain, I suppose they wanted to include one or two ladder maps to add some familiarity.
Also: Small is not bad.
you paid because its fucking 5 bucks for 1 year xD no matter the mappool
If a major tournament switches up the maps, I'll definitely watch. If they don't, I may watch but I'll be pretty comfortable looking at recaps or even just results. For the most part, games have become repetitive enough that I don't feel much urge to watch. I find Proleague much more interesting than most other tournaments right now just because I want to see how these weird maps work. I feel like switching up maps could get audiences more interested again, which could only be good, right?
Proleague maps are team league maps; don't expect them to get wide use in Singles tournaments. At least not this round of PL maps, maybe they will make a few usable maps in the future. The closest one right now is... maybe Bifrost? I do agree that I want more interesting and fresh maps and tilesets though.
Edit: ALSO! A big problem with too many new maps too often is that tournaments adopt maps at different paces. If you introduce too many new (even balanced and well liked) maps too often, pros will have to keep practicing on too many maps because tournaments still have them in their pools. If there were some... *shrug* governing body that could dictate good and exciting map pools this would not be a problem. But right now each tournament is doing its own thing with their pools, so it becomes a burden to players when the pace of map pool change is too fast and not standard for everyone.
On January 03 2013 13:00 Wherewolf wrote: If a major tournament switches up the maps, I'll definitely watch. If they don't, I may watch but I'll be pretty comfortable looking at recaps or even just results. For the most part, games have become repetitive enough that I don't feel much urge to watch. I find Proleague much more interesting than most other tournaments right now just because I want to see how these weird maps work. I feel like switching up maps could get audiences more interested again, which could only be good, right?
Although I like the new things that PL maps bring to the table. We have to remember the format makes it much easier on the players. Players have about a week to know which matchup they are playing. And if you look at the players being sent out each round, you can tell that some of them 'specialize' on certain maps so that also helps with the practice time.
If you try to throw 4-5 brand new maps in the pool of a weekend tournament, I am not sure players will have enough time to practice on them. You might end up getting 'generic' game play anyways.
Not sure how many of you followed RSL. It had a HUGE map pool for players to choose from (including old old maps like Scrap Station, Xel Carverns, etc). And guess what? Except for the first map (Bo3, Bo5 loser's pick so 1st map was random), all the players ended up picking the 'standard' maps as their picks.
Again, I am all for new maps. But I think it will take a joint effort from all the tournaments to decide when and how many maps to add so players have enough time to think up strategies and refine their play.
tournaments have two problems. 1) the players dont' know the maps, and have little incentive to practice the maps since they're not standardized elsewhere by a more important organization (bw: kespa) 2) the viewers don't have interest in the maps (this isn't a big deal because proleague has shown people still do care, if the tournament is important enough. nasl prelims, on the other hand, had different reception. also because they were online faceless noname players were playing and theyre not as prestigious because they don't always feature the calibre of players in pl, to put it bluntly)
----- It's hard because there's no kespa to say "hey we're changing maps now. pros, you practice on these 5 maps for the next 5 months". there are too many tournaments. not all tournaments will follow along, i believe
If not all the tournaments follow along you're gonna get nonideal distribution of practice and that'll be frowned upon too. pl works because most kespa pros only play in pl/osl anyways. there are obvious exclusions.
People give more shits about map balance when they really shouldn't.
Great post and couldn't agree more. Tournaments need to shuffle their mappools more around, especially when new maps are being made and made available by skilled map-makers. For team leagues it is quite easy, since the maps dont have to be 100% balanced, because teams can just seed certain races to certain maps to deal with this. Therefore the balance of maps has smaller impact on who 'deserved' to win in a perfectly balance world.
Another aspect is also how maps are selected during solo leagues. We've seen tournaments with 7 maps in their mappool ending with 3-4 maps being used for 95%* of the games, because the players were allowed to down-vote the maps they didn't like - resulting in people removing maps they were not really familiar with (newish maps) and maps they deemed imbalanced. I think it would be cool if organizers would use alternative systems to ensure that the entire mappool is utilized, either by allowing no vetos at all or alternatively by having maps randomly selected (like GSL does it?).
* This number is pulled out of thin air, but it is my impression that a selected few maps tend to dominate tournaments that allow players multiple vetos.
On January 03 2013 10:22 Tobblish wrote: Pros don't have the time if all tournaments had their "own" maps. Leagues can't just take a new map "her derp this is good" and then end up with a terrible unbalanced map.
At the same time more maps are needed, different maps. 2012 was pretty bad in that regard if you don't count the Kespa maps.
Look at the beginning of maps in SC2, the map needs to be played at the pro level to find out if it's balanced or not or we will never get new maps(new maps will come out very slowly the way things are and only 1-2 at that)
This is 1 thing I feel BW handled a lot better then SC2. At least with Proleague we some guaranteed map changes, but its going to take the entire scene to keep the map pool fresh. I'm even ok with certain tournaments having 1-2 unique maps to their tournament, as long as we have a fresh map pool and no map stays in rotation for over a year.
I completely agree with this thread. I think part of the stagnation we felt at the end of the year was the same damn maps everywhere, for like 6 months straight. I love watching proleague just to look at the new maps.
I have to admit that in all honesty, the new KESPA maps are the main reason for making proleague matches a bit more interesting Would be nice to see some foreign tourneys use some KESPA maps as well
yes, it may be more stressful for the players to continuously change maps, but players really are good enough to adapt to such things. Maps don't have to be 100% balanced, and we already know that almost all maps can't really be 100% balanced, I think it's worth taking some risks in the map-making scene to make for more interesting games
Tournaments usually announce their schedules/map pools/prize money well in advance of the tournaments taking place. At least the big ones I mentioned in the OP. It gives players plenty of time to practice games on the maps. It might also mean certain players might practice on specific maps harder because they want a better chance at the tournament they are used in. It also means foreigners might stand a better chance against Koreans, because maybe foreigners might practice the MLG map pool harder while Koreans might not, hence we get more foreigners farther into tournaments which let's face it, means more viewers. Everybody loves the underdog foreigner vs the top dog korean.
I'm not saying, throw all maps out and each tournament picks 7 new maps and we now have 35 new maps spread across MLG, IEM, IPL, GSL & NASL. I'm saying, let's get rid of these maps that have been around for 2+ years and replace them with some more interesting maps. Let's do this on a regular basis, once every season? once every couple months? once every xxx?
Proleague is great because they picked up new and interesting maps, they also kept some older ones as to not have a complete new map pool. GSL slowly does it by adding 1 new map every season, unfortunately with only what 5 seasons a year now that's 5 new maps a year, which isn't much at all. MLG & IPL seem even worse, using maps that have been used for years and the "new" maps they pick up are maps that have been dropped already. (Atlantis Spaceship, Metropolis, etc etc)
Pro players should be able to look at the overview of any map and be able to play "standard" on it. Even if they haven't practiced it a whole lot we should still seen normal standard play, which is fine, but it also means if they have practiced it on it a lot we might see some brand new innovated play, like we see on some of these proleague maps.
I want to add my voice to the chorus supporting new maps. One of the things that I love most about HotS is that I get to play new maps. I've down voted all the old WoL maps so I only play HotS maps.
Tournament makers: for the love of starcraft PLEASE shake up your map pool more frequently. We're bored to hell out here!
The problem is, until they all change, it will be harder for just one of them to lead the way. I think they are probably hesitant to change maps just because they don't want the players to be struggling with switching map pools from what they usually play. Moreover, they need a fairly large map pool, and there just aren't that many well explored maps out there. I think it's mainly up to Blizz to adapt some new maps on the ladder. Should happen soon.
Personally, I will be minimizing any games in non-Proleague tourneys if they use Kespa maps. You decry some maps for imbalance, then you advocate adding the most imbalanced maps in SC2 history into tournaments? When Blizzard makes bad maps, they are idiots and should give up. When Kespa does it, they are geniuses trying to spice up the metagame.
Please stop applying double standards, and stop advocating Kespa maps. They are horrible.
On January 03 2013 13:59 Wingblade wrote: Personally, I will be minimizing any games in non-Proleague tourneys if they use Kespa maps. You decry some maps for imbalance, then you advocate adding the most imbalanced maps in SC2 history into tournaments? When Blizzard makes bad maps, they are idiots and should give up. When Kespa does it, they are geniuses trying to spice up the metagame.
Please stop applying double standards, and stop advocating Kespa maps. They are horrible.
Seriously. One of the big reasons we've seen so many mirror matches is because all of the maps are so broken in favor of one race or another.
On January 03 2013 10:03 BrokenMirage wrote: What would you consider the optimal lifespan for a map supposing that there are no important balance issues? Personally I would say between 4 to 10 months depending on how many differents playstyles are commonly used.
Yeah, I could see somewhere between 4 and 10 months depending on the map. For instance Cloud Kingdom I'm not complaining about too much because you can see so many different playstyles on this map that it is usually must more enjoyable to watch. Maps like Metropolis though just get extremely boring after a long time, so a shorter time they are in the pool the better.
In BW, maps stayed around for a couple of months to a little over a year in the case of the most popular maps, and it worked well since the most popular maps were really good but didn't really overstay their welcome by much.
On January 03 2013 13:59 Wingblade wrote: Personally, I will be minimizing any games in non-Proleague tourneys if they use Kespa maps. You decry some maps for imbalance, then you advocate adding the most imbalanced maps in SC2 history into tournaments? When Blizzard makes bad maps, they are idiots and should give up. When Kespa does it, they are geniuses trying to spice up the metagame.
Please stop applying double standards, and stop advocating Kespa maps. They are horrible.
Seriously. One of the big reasons we've seen so many mirror matches is because all of the maps are so broken in favor of one race or another.
They are OKAY(and i use that very loosely), because having imba maps in a team based setting isn't the worst thing. But individual tournaments. That should never happen with these maps. Mix up the map pool if you really must, with community or blizzard maps that are actually good.
Daybreak is one of the best maps ever made to this point. Why would you advocate removing it? It's extremely balanced, and has created great games.
On January 03 2013 13:59 Wingblade wrote: Personally, I will be minimizing any games in non-Proleague tourneys if they use Kespa maps. You decry some maps for imbalance, then you advocate adding the most imbalanced maps in SC2 history into tournaments? When Blizzard makes bad maps, they are idiots and should give up. When Kespa does it, they are geniuses trying to spice up the metagame.
Please stop applying double standards, and stop advocating Kespa maps. They are horrible.
Seriously. One of the big reasons we've seen so many mirror matches is because all of the maps are so broken in favor of one race or another.
They are OKAY(and i use that very loosely), because having imba maps in a team based setting isn't the worst thing. But individual tournaments. That should never happen with these maps. Mix up the map pool if you really must, with community or blizzard maps that are actually good.
Daybreak is one of the best maps ever made to this point. Why would you advocate removing it? It's extremely balanced, and has created great games.
Because its the same thing over and over again (also its imbalances have been exposed). The fresher maps you see people trying things that you dont normally see because every timing isnt worked out because its imbalances arent completely understood yet and all the timings arent figured out. With Daybreak everything about it is known already and we arent going to see anything more from it.
On January 03 2013 13:59 Wingblade wrote: Personally, I will be minimizing any games in non-Proleague tourneys if they use Kespa maps. You decry some maps for imbalance, then you advocate adding the most imbalanced maps in SC2 history into tournaments? When Blizzard makes bad maps, they are idiots and should give up. When Kespa does it, they are geniuses trying to spice up the metagame.
Please stop applying double standards, and stop advocating Kespa maps. They are horrible.
I never in my OP said all tournaments should pick up the kespa maps. Hell, I even said they were trash but they are still fun to watch due to the team setting and being able to pick which race you can send out.
Too many players here complain saying that there aren't enough tested maps and that's exactly the problem. No tournament does anything except take year old maps from GSL and assume they are good. Metropolis is imbalanced but since GSL used it for a season, MLG & IPL thought it'd be okay to keep using it forever. Trust me, as a map maker you are able to look at certain maps and be able to tell how they can play out, or at least what can happen. There are so many "standard" maps shown here on team liquid's mapping forum that are good enough for competitive play. They have the easy to hold natural, some have the easy to hold third, some have the hard to hold third, whatever you want, it's there. Yet the only excuse for tournaments never picking up new maps is the fear that it MIGHT be imbalanced. So instead we get tournaments that keep using the same maps over and over again causing the same old games over and over to the viewers.
Yes, people love proleague because it's proleague, but ffs people love proleague because they actually have the balls to not use the same 7 maps that every other tournament has been using for the past 2 years.
disagree entirely, proleague maps seem balanced, because its the proleague format, thats why you see alot of mirrors constantly, while it might be a good thing ( mirrors are better to watch nowadays), its not good for balance at all
All this "maps need to be 100% balanced out the gate" Lol no.
A: Maps can't be balanced without supporting data to help identify problems.
B: Most people forget most BW maps were imbalanced as shit and it worked ok. Seriously.
At one point I was working on a project documenting how badly balanced most BW maps were, here's the data as I never got around to finishing it. As you can see most maps had MAJOR imbalances. And yet life was A-Ok. The world did not end. Note the data on the most recent maps is outdated since this was done in Feb.
If there was an upvote button, I would do press it.
Whilst the old maps are nice and I like them, some refreshed maps would be appreciated! That's why I love watching Proleauge. It sparks new opportunities for new strategies.
On January 03 2013 14:53 X3GoldDot wrote: disagree entirely, proleague maps seem balanced, because its the proleague format, thats why you see alot of mirrors constantly, while it might be a good thing ( mirrors are better to watch nowadays), its not good for balance at all
So you don't want new maps at all because the maps proleague have chosen have the chance to be imbalanced (we've seen them for a month now) so that pretty much says we can never have any new maps ever and should keep using Antiga for another year?
Finding melee maps for sc2 isn't hard at all to do, will they be completely balanced? Who knows. But is that really a problem? If they slightly favor zerg it's okay because we just replaced metropolis anyway. If they slightly favor terran, great! Terran have been dying off since 2011.
On January 03 2013 13:59 Wingblade wrote: Personally, I will be minimizing any games in non-Proleague tourneys if they use Kespa maps. You decry some maps for imbalance, then you advocate adding the most imbalanced maps in SC2 history into tournaments? When Blizzard makes bad maps, they are idiots and should give up. When Kespa does it, they are geniuses trying to spice up the metagame.
Please stop applying double standards, and stop advocating Kespa maps. They are horrible.
You (and the OP) are missing one key point.
The onus should be on TEAM LEAGUES to introduce fresh maps. TEAM LEAGUES don't need to care about imbalance, because they are... team leagues. You pick who you send out, so map imbalance is irrelevant. Just send out the stronger race.
In the short term, map balance gets tested, teams play the map, they send out the strong race, and then the map gets canned as unbalance. THAT IS FINE. WE NEED THAT.
When a map has been determined as balanced enough in teamleagues, it can be easily used in individual competitions as people will have had some exposure to it.
That means GSTL, IPTL, EGMC, Proleague all have a different kind of responsibility to the individual leagues because of the fact that map imbalances basically have a lot less significance, as they can be avoided through use of a team.
That also means you can apply a double standard, because team leagues should be held to a different standard to individual leagues, which doesn't mean throwing imbalanced maps into individual competitions, but it does mean testing maps in team leagues.
Well, the Proleague maps kinda don't look balanced on some matchups. That's probably why we see so many mirror matchups. Still, it has got to point that i prefer to see perhaps imbalanced matches on new maps rather than the same map again and again...
In my opinion, there are only two options, which are equally impossible:
a) all major foreign tournament organizers sit together and decide on a common mappool with new maps b) blizzard overhauls the ladder mappool with mainly new maps and waits till the tournament orginaziers pick them up
On January 04 2013 01:42 JustPassingBy wrote: In my opinion, there are only two options, which are equally impossible: a) all major foreign tournament organizers sit together and decide on a common mappool with new maps b) blizzard overhauls the ladder mappool with mainly new maps and waits till the tournament orginaziers pick them up
I think to remember something like this between IEM, MLG and DH (?). But i don't know if that's a good thing because it does perhaps mean that new maps get implemented even more rarely.
I've always been one to argue more about map imbalance rather than race imbalance. One major factor about what makes a strategy strong is the map that it is played on. One obvious example would be the map Xel'Naga Caverns. With an exposed natural and hard to take third base, and impossible to take 4th base (unless you were Terran), Zergs were having trouble keeping up with Terrans in this smaller and more open-natural map.
Maps like Tal'Darim Altar was a 4gate fest for ever PvP purely based on the map and it's lack of ramp. That is why that strategy is so prevalent.
I would hope that Blizzard looks into maps as a substantive reason for many race imbalances. While it isn't the only reason one race may be stronger than the other, maps surely enable them.
Although I don't mind daybreak and cloud kingdom, I think that they should rotate 2-3 maps every new tournament/season. If a map is so good it manages to stay on the pool forever (like daybreak and ckingdom might) then that's fine but at least there is new maps every time
I am 100% with the OP. If maps are the main reason for fresh games, which kept me watching. After 7 month of daybreak, ohana and other maps, I am tired of watching every game play out the same way. I am tired of playing on them on the ladder. I need some new, broken, dumb maps to spice up my life.
Pro Players will whine about new maps, balanced or not. But professional baseball, football(American and others) and basketball teams would play all home games if they could. They would also cancel games if it was to cold, or raining or to hot. But they arn't allowed to, because you play on the field that is given to you. Some american football teams have stadiums with domes, while others pratice and play in the rain and snow. That means that sometimes the team that plays outside all the time has an advantage some games. It is just the way it is and should be accepted.
The initial complains of professional players should be ignored(but noted for future reference) until it is proven that the map is totally busted. Until then, bring on the new fields of battle, terrible and great!
On January 04 2013 02:51 archonOOid wrote: But wasn't IPL flamed for their own new cool maps during the 2012 tour?
IPL's three new maps were:
Atlantis Spaceship, which they are still using.
Sanshore Mist, which was used for a few seasons and other tournaments even used it for a little while. A lot of people compared it to Dual Sight and since the 3rd was too hard to take it slowly got phased out.
Darkness Falls, which was actually my map, which was used for 1 season then replaced because it was apparently imbalanced for terran. (At least that's what many pro players told me when I asked them) Which at the time terran was already dominating so it makes sense why they'd get rid of it.
IPL should have kept trying out new maps, especially in their team league, instead they got rid of the unique maps and picked up GSL maps because they are what "work" apparently.
Yeah please for God's sake change maps more often. Just like I have >5 songs on my iPod - I would really like to watch something new once in a while. Doesn't have to be every 2 seconds, just enough to prevent monotony.
Competitive SC2 is getting stale to me for the exact reason OP mentioned. Only thing I tune into now are either finals, top 8 of major LANs, or Proleague. Proleague is without a doubt my favorite atm, although it suffers from large amounts of mirrors due to the quirkyness of the maps (map features tend to favor certain races, leading to those races being sent out by both sides).
Even with the quirkyness, Proleague is the best thus far. GSL has been doing a great job. And while I used to be super annoyed with NASL for different maps, it's very possible that I will start watching again for this exact reason.
well i agree with you to a certain extent but imagine if they took in a map that is on the level of some of the ladder maps we have seen (let me remind you of backwater gulch, blistering sands, and imo also condemned ridge eventhough some people will argue that this map is acutally ok) they have no real way of knowing how good a map is if it hasn't really been tested and especially for foreign tournaments with korean invites it is important not to take non-ladder maps that aren't in gsl/pl into their mappool since koreans most likely won't have played any games on those maps... so in my opinion it is up to gsl / pl to bring out new maps that the foreign scene can then adopt
IMO ladder maps should completely rotate after a year (fresh map pool year to year) and tournaments should be making some maps of there own, or adopting other, new more popular maps. Even if it provides imbalance, it would still be more entertaining then watching the same builds on maps that have been figured out for most of WOL.
Agreed on all points. The map pool should be a continually evolving thing. Both on the ladder as well as in the tournament scene. But if both are shit, things are going to get stale.
I wish the community would click on the "custom maps" button more. It is pretty fun to see the new maps the community are making. Ok, so IronManSC and Superouman have both retired, which sucks, because Ohana and Cloud kingdom were pretty good maps. I know the community is tired of them because maps like this are used over and over again, but that is because they are closest to balanced. I know Ohana is kind of toss favored, which is probably why it is time for Ohana to reitre. Cloud Kingdom has been pretty interesting so far, but people are getting bored, and I think everyone can understand that. What I think people need to start doing is to have a few showmatches or tourneys (small ones) to show some games in the PUBLIC of the new maps. the Team Liquid Map contest was a magnificent idea! The only bad thing that happened was that that...korhal compound or something. THe point is, the community itself needs to be less afraid to use different maps, like whirlwind, abyssal caverns (both, which have been revealed by gsl and other larger tournaments now) I think it is pretty much up to us to change the map pool. Posts like this, I think, are a pretty good idea in general because it lets the public know that the community needs new maps. and of course, I think the map pool for ladder needs to change x.x Its hard though because pro's need ladder to help them practice for tournaments, but if the tourney pool keeps changing, blizzard is in a tight position
I think that every tournament should try and bring 2 new maps in minimum per season, assuming a 4 season/year. While other tournaments like IPL should minimum bring 3-4 maps, since they only do 2 a year (atleast so far).
Daybreak is cool, but it's boring and old, we know how a daybreak game plays out unless some wierd scenario happens, which could happen on any map, not just Daybreak.
Another thing I think would just spice it up a little bit is change the look of the maps.
Make Daybreak a jungle, Antiga a desert, Entombed a city, etc.
I've been away from the scene for about 6 months now, playing some Dota2 and other games, but from time to time I like to tune back in to watch some of my favorite players and favorite tournaments. I can't tell you how little I care to watch when I see these maps STILL in the pool that were already old 6 months ago when I quit playing. I still love SC2, but the lack of changes in maps only helps to stagnate the meta. Seeing the same styles played on the same maps from 6 months ago is not very attractive!
On January 03 2013 09:47 BretZ wrote: Thank you so damn much for this post. I will continue to bump and upvote every post I see on this topic. The map pool is holding starcraft 2. Because of Kespa's new maps (well, remakes) I actually payed to watch Proleague despite not having much time for it, just to show I support new maps. Though TDA and Ohana are a pain, I suppose they wanted to include one or two ladder maps to add some familiarity.
Also: Small is not bad.
+1
Also you'll be happy to hear Proleague is replacing TDA with Entombed for Round 2.
On January 04 2013 06:16 iMrising wrote: I think it is pretty much up to us to change the map pool. Posts like this, I think, are a pretty good idea in general because it lets the public know that the community needs new maps. and of course, I think the map pool for ladder needs to change x.x Its hard though because pro's need ladder to help them practice for tournaments, but if the tourney pool keeps changing, blizzard is in a tight position
This isn't that true though. Pretty much 99% of professional players are on teams which means they are able to practice with their teams on specific tournament maps. Most of them probably just use ladder to "warm up" or keep their overall mechanics up to date.
I've actually PM'd quite a few professional players on TL asking for their feedback, I'm hoping some of them might respond here with their thoughts. Even if you get a giant influx of new maps, if professional teams sit down all together and glance over the map, or watch each other play on it, it really won't take too long to at least figure most of the map out.
I have a hunch that when most pros say they don't want new maps that it's mainly because they are lazy and would rather just practice their build orders over and over again on the current map pool.
I suppose if that was the case, then it's more of a bad relationship between Pro's and Viewers then? Pros want: simplicity in the maps more consistency less changes viewers want: more diversity interesting maps, less consistency
You're missing the point that there needs to be a standard set that most tournaments can use, with maybe a few different maps here and there. And the only tournament that everyone is going to follow is GSL. So basically, GSL needs to be the ones who make the drastic changes. Everyone will just follow them.
I feel that there should be new maps especially for team leagues. Maps that aren't on ladder force players to practice with teammates and helps to further the "team" aspect of team league.
How many of us are sick of seeing the same maps being picked up tournament after tournament?
I can not bear to see another full year of tournaments playing the same maps constantly. 2013 is bringing us HoTS and with all these balance and unit changes, we should also see map pool changes as well. Most of us are sick of seeing the same maps being played over and over again. Why are Antiga, Daybreak, Shakuras and TalDarim Altar still being played?
I was looking forward to 2013, hoping that the bigger tournaments would really spice of their map pools because change is coming. Coming up soon is none other then a sc2 giant, the IPTL! They just posted their premier in the tournament section, niiiice, IPTL is back! I can't wait to see what map changes they might bring into the 2013 season. annnnnnnnd guess what. I got let down. Take a look:
Why do we still have 3/4 of this map pool? These maps have either been around for years or have been proven to be imbalanced. So why are they still in the map pool? Worse case scenario you pick up a new map, something fresh and say it turns out imbalanced. Well, Metro is imbalanced for Zerg? Ohana is WonWonWon map? Entombed is 11/11 map? Players can veto if they absolutely need to. Also, it's your team league, if you bring in a new map that is imbalanced for a certain race then maybe (just like in proleague!) you'll see the teams only use certain races on certain maps.
MLG is another huge tournament that can easily force new maps in 2013 for their tournaments to try to spice things up. I hope they don't let us down because if we get another year of Antiga, Daybreak, Entombed, Metropolis, Ohana or TDA I don't know how much more sc2 I will want to watch from MLG. (Did you know I just listed off their entire map pool from the fall championship minus Cloud Kingdom?) Hell, it was just last Summer, MLG was still using Shakuras in their map pool. Yes, the same map that was around when WoL came out. Glad I got to watch the same map get played for 2+ years!
At least we can rely on IEM to make some changes right??? Nope, their first tournament of 2013 and it's still the same old map pool. Well, at least they are using whirlwind, that's a little different right? /yawn
I'm a map maker for sc2 and when Proleague released their new maps they were using for their season, my jaw hit the floor. I thought they were trash. Some of the worst imbalanced maps ever. Yet guess what? I, and many others, love watching games played on these maps because they aren't the same maps we've seen for years. They aren't the same strategies used for years. People try out innovated strategies on them. People Cheese, People Macro, People entertain on them. Hell, when TDA, Antiga or Ohana come up next on Proleague I minimize it (unless it's a player I really want to watch) because guess what, who gives a shit about TDA? That map hit it's prime 2 years ago, let it die already. Ohana? Great, WonWonWon incoming! That's only been happening for a year now and at this rate we've got at least another year (maybe 2!) before it will die off.
GSL has been the best tournament to watch, not only because it has the highest level of competition but because it actually changes it map pool....slowly....I still believe they need to get rid of Entombed, Antiga and Daybreak and bring in 3 new maps, but at least they bring in something new every season. I'm looking forward to their announcement of their 2013 Season map pool and I hope we're not disappointed with the same maps we've seen for years.
NASL was actually fairly good with their map pool imo, they changed it up a good chunk season to season. Just looking from Season 3 to Season 4 for instance the only maps that stayed the same were Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak & Ohana. I'm hoping Season 5 we see more changes to the map pool, maybe get rid of CK, Daybreak and Ohana this time which means they'd completely change their map pool in 2 seasons, which is great. I just hope they keep updating their maps and don't freeze their map pools for the next few seasons because even though they changed up their map pool almost completely, they changed it to maps we've already been seeing for years.
IPL - Completely agree. They've changed 2 maps since IPL4 in April...
MLG - Axeltoss posted in this thread, he might help.
IEM - Agree
Proleague - They're new to SC2. It's their first tournament outside of OSL. Give them a break.
GSL - They'll change the map pool gradually like they always have.
NASL - NASLS5 is HotS. The map pool will change with the game.
Let's not forget in all the PL praising that their maps can be imbalanced as hell due to the fact that they can pick the race that plays on them. Most of their maps wouldn't hold up in a 1v1 GSL/MLG format.
The real reason we don't have much variation in maps is that the gameplay places strict requirements on what maps can be used, where all maps have to follow the same format or become imbalanced: ramp into main, choke into 2nd and a safe third are both pretty much must haves. Both sides now have their 3 bases, can max out effectively and the rest of the map becomes relatively unimportant.
What you should be asking for is gameplay changes in HotS that allow more varied maps, not map changes for the sake of map changes because experimentation has been done and changing maps to be more like dual sight or abyssal city (including some PL maps) only reverts the game back to 2 base timings.
I couldn't agree more with the OP. I add that the ENTIRE ladder map pool should change every season. The map pool of the big tournaments should change at least every 6 months !
On January 04 2013 06:42 Derez wrote: Let's not forget in all the PL praising that their maps can be imbalanced as hell due to the fact that they can pick the race that plays on them. Most of their maps wouldn't hold up in a 1v1 GSL/MLG format.
The real reason we don't have much variation in maps is that the gameplay places strict requirements on what maps can be used, where all maps have to follow the same format or become imbalanced: ramp into main, choke into 2nd and a safe third are both pretty much must haves. Both sides now have their 3 bases, can max out effectively and the rest of the map becomes relatively unimportant.
What you should be asking for is gameplay changes in HotS that allow more varied maps, not map changes for the sake of map changes because experimentation has been done and changing maps to be more like dual sight or abyssal city (including some PL maps) only reverts the game back to 2 base timings.
People have been saying this for years. I'm not gonna be convinced that the sc2 metagame is some mutated abberation with glass for bones that needs the same constraints on every map to not just collapse into a bloody mess, proleague has shown (yes I know it's a teamleague) that creativity in map making is completely possible even with forcefields as a part of gameplay. Even though the maps aren't always 50/50 in win rates, all the other maps we've been using for the last year and a half sure as hell aren't either.
And dual sight and abbsyal city are terrible examples. They're not creative maps, they're just bad ones
Proleague, replaces TDA & tweaks up their 4 new maps to try to make them more balanced. Feels refreshing to see changes only after 1 round of gameplay! It makes me excited to see what they'll keep changing through out the season. I'm crossing my fingers hoping they don't freeze their map pool now.
Yes, they are a team league so they can change up their map pool more often...weird though, because why don't we see any of the other team leagues changing up their map pool? /shrug
OSL and MSL had some of the most shit-imba maps played in their leagues. Said maps also prouced some of the most amazing fucking games ever (OSL Savior vs Iris @ Arkanoid, OSL Fantasy vs Jangbi @ Pathfinder, MSL Hiya vs Free @ Triathlon, etc etc).
If map is too imba, then they rotate it out within a season or two. But at least new maps provide a type of excitement that old "balanced maps" can never quite make .. tournaments don't have to go all out with new maps, just one or two every few seasons is conservative enough. Even Fighting Spirit got phased out in pro BW.
Also, just because PL maps are filled with mirrors, doesn't mean they are massively imba .. just means its at least slightly imba, and teams are always looking to maximize their win chance. In the last season of pure BW, Outlier had almost no Terrans sent out on it, implying it was unplayable for Terran. In an interview, it was said that Outlier was indeed playable for terran, but teams would rather send Terrans on other maps.
Holy FUCK I want to see new maps so badly... I'm SO sick of everything you mentioned. Abyssal City is fine cause it hasn't been out THAT long, but the rest.. there's just no excuse. I'm SO glad kespa have jumped in with new maps, those alone make proleague great.
Thanks to the OP for raising some good points! I feel that maps are not discussed enough. At the beginning of all the tounrmanets everybody gives one post about complaining on the map pool just to forget about it and complain about racial balance in the following. Hope some tournament organizers read the post and start thinking. Thanks!
As a private viewer and fanboy I kinda feel that the map pool changing is good not just because of balance but in terms of gameplay too. If a map (Map A) allows us to use certain builds better than another map (Map B) then we'd see more strategies come out if the maps are of a different mould.
Also maps can change engagement styles as well which would allow Blizzard to explore balancing options for the game (although I doubt they'd do any serious changes with HOTS right around the Blizzard Corner).
On January 04 2013 01:42 HolydaKing wrote: Well, the Proleague maps kinda don't look balanced on some matchups. That's probably why we see so many mirror matchups. Still, it has got to point that i prefer to see perhaps imbalanced matches on new maps rather than the same map again and again...
So thumbs up for the OP.
The thing about discussing the amount of mirror matchups has now been shaken up a bit, as they've now updated their pool for R2, already. Adjusting the maps for any imbalances, and taking out maps that are TOO mirror heavy (TDA for ZvZ is their cited reason).
I'd seriously be paying more attention not only to the maps, but the way they go about their business with new maps and the imbalances they provide.
On January 04 2013 07:24 ArvickHero wrote: OSL and MSL had some of the most shit-imba maps played in their leagues. Said maps also prouced some of the most amazing fucking games ever (OSL Savior vs Iris @ Arkanoid, OSL Fantasy vs Jangbi @ Pathfinder, MSL Hiya vs Free @ Triathlon, etc etc).
If map is too imba, then they rotate it out within a season or two. But at least new maps provide a type of excitement that old "balanced maps" can never quite make .. tournaments don't have to go all out with new maps, just one or two every few seasons is conservative enough. Even Fighting Spirit got phased out in pro BW.
Also, just because PL maps are filled with mirrors, doesn't mean they are massively imba .. just means its at least slightly imba, and teams are always looking to maximize their win chance. In the last season of pure BW, Outlier had almost no Terrans sent out on it, implying it was unplayable for Terran. In an interview, it was said that Outlier was indeed playable for terran, but teams would rather send Terrans on other maps.
God exactly this. Most of the time it takes players a while to really work out how to abuse a map anyway. It might not even be imbalanced for the first few months of it's lifespan. Just try new shit, keep things fresh, and if it's not working out? Simply try something else. It's not the end of the world. Tournaments have veto systems anyway so a player shouldn't have to be subjected to a map that's really bad for them. Hell I wonder how many of the current balance problems we have are to some extent due to the current map pools in the first place.
I remember watching the English proleague casts with EGL and I cringed when the KeSPA maps were criticized for just having "one fight and then one guy just won", isn't that what we've been seeing for the past 6 months???
On January 04 2013 09:46 Pros wrote: I remember watching the English proleague casts with EGL and I cringed when the KeSPA maps were criticized for just having "one fight and then one guy just won", isn't that what we've been seeing for the past 6 months???
One fight = winner is what I've kinda had the impression of much of SC2 for a while. :S
Yeah something new in regards to maps is definitely needed for 2013, its just such a shame we've lost so many good mappers on the way. But it's not like there hasn't been plenty of people trying to get it done. It's just you can't move and entire community into being being a project, let alone convincing all major tournament organizers and Blizzard to use maps. All the best luck for getting them to chance things though.
On January 04 2013 10:09 BretZ wrote: Kevin Knocke just announce on IPL they would be addressing the issue of TSL and players who had left teams, and a change in the map pool very soon.
This post is drawing very good attention.
Good to hear there, hopefully it's not just all talk and they'll do it soon, not soon™.
On January 04 2013 10:20 IndyO wrote: Yeah something new in regards to maps is definitely needed for 2013, its just such a shame we've lost so many good mappers on the way. But it's not like there hasn't been plenty of people trying to get it done. It's just you can't move and entire community into being being a project, let alone convincing all major tournament organizers and Blizzard to use maps. All the best luck for getting them to chance things though.
Pretty sure a lot more mappers will start to come back with HotS. A lot more will come back as well if tournaments actually start to pick up more community maps. Think of how big the mapping community was when all those map tournaments were going on and you had a chance to get their map into tournament pools.
I am tired of seeing the same maps being used in tournament after tournament with no variation to the pool whatsoever.
Proleague has all but proven that you can have a great tournament with funky maps, it's about time other tournaments started following from their example.
I agree for the most part. One of the big reasons people are watching Proleague now are for the new maps. Other tournaments should take note and not be afraid to mix things up a bit more.
As long as the maps that are introduced are balanced it's go time. I wouldn't mind totally new maps being introduced for a tournament as long as they've been tested reasonably well. New kinds of map testing could be implemented to cater to the players and map makers:
A) It could be that the tournament pays a couple of pros (hundreds of dollars each) for playing the new maps. B) Pay map makers a sum of money for winning a map making tournament.
Everyone should follow Kespa as far as the maps go, 2012 was kinda stale as far as the maps go thus making metagame stale. More maps = more diversity = better gameplay!
I think each tournament should remove 1/3 of their map pool each season. Stale maps are even worse than imbalances as far as the viewer is concerned. Besides, they can be used to fix imbalances as well instead of waiting for Blizzard, should the need arise.
In fact, this is what I would suggest. 2 maps are to be rotated out every season. One of the removed map is going to be the worst map (either in terms of games produced or balanced), and the other is going to be the oldest map. (regardless of how good it is)
On January 03 2013 10:57 Finnz wrote: What ever happened to ESV?
We are still around. Actually why we have been so quiet is due to the problem in the OP. It's pointless to make WoL maps as soon as the HotS beta hit as no one would use them, and there is no major HotS tournaments yet (not part of the OP, just relevant).
bring back the weekly for HoTS pretty pretty please.
good post adressing a an important issue. i'd like to see tournaments invest into developing the map scene. since producing good games is a concern for them, having good maps produced should be a natural field to put some focus on.
edit: f.ex. sponsor tournaments like the Korean Weekly, where new maps got tested out on the highest level of play.
On January 04 2013 12:10 rename wrote: They should indeed take the most balanced new kespa/proleague map and put it in the ladder pool every ladder season.
That would be quite the gamble given Kespas tournement format don't care about if the map is balanced.
I will say through. Blizzard started out 2013 by ditching the oldest of the their maps. I feel tournements should have done the same. I fully agree with the statements in this post.
Somebody should host a tournament centered around maps every month or so, the maps would be selected by voting on TL and we would have our top notch players battling it out on random maps they'd never seen before! *sigh...* in a perfect world. This could be pretty sweet though.
On January 04 2013 14:09 stormchaser wrote: New maps? YES PLEASE. throw out all of the old ones, we seriously need all new maps.
Antiga Shipyard Cloud Kingdom Daybreak Entombed Valley Metropolis Ohana Whirlwind
Every single one of those has to go.
Well Whirldwind is still pretty young and has provided its share of epic games (Flash vs Ryung, DRG vs Ryung, Seed vs Symbol, MMA vs MVP etc). I'd keep that one.
Mayyyybe 1 more season of Cloud as well since it's not quite as old as Daybreak but arguably better these days in quality.
I never understood the problem with introducing completely new maps every (half) year. Even if some are imbalanced or don't completely link into the current meta - who the hell cares as long as the imbalance is evenly distributed. Zerg biased, Protoss biased and Terran biased maps are in existence even today. My solution? Just allow each tournament player to ban a map. This should have been added a long time ago.
My hope is that proleague will continue innovating new maps. The beauty of the PL format is that a severely imbalanced map will simply result in mirror matchups. Whilst not ideal, it doesn't ruin the viewing experience. PL will also give the best statistics you could possibly hope for, being able to use both win rate and play rate. If a map is 75% TvZ with 4 games played, but 22 of the games in PL have been ZvZ on this map, you can still conclude that this map is probably a Zerg map.
On January 04 2013 14:54 conut wrote: they all probably just want the meta game to play out.
The problem is that the meta game was played out about half a year ago, and just about nothing has changed ever since. Any attempts at innovation like symbols baneling ultra play vs protoss quickly regressed to the more standard (and boring) broodlord infestor spine crawler turtle.
Maybe its very hard and frustrating to make maps when there is so much that can impact the balance, like forciefields, chokes, warp tech, lings speed, and so on. I wouldnt want to be a mapmaker in sc2 ^^
On January 04 2013 22:47 Fjodorov wrote: Maybe its very hard and frustrating to make maps when there is so much that can impact the balance, like forciefields, chokes, warp tech, lings speed, and so on. I wouldnt want to be a mapmaker in sc2 ^^
Sometimes I think you have to ignore balance to some level and focus on making a map that will have entertaining games. Going for maps that are perfectly balanced makes maps that are perfectly boring.
On January 04 2013 14:54 conut wrote: they all probably just want the meta game to play out.
The problem is that the meta game was played out about half a year ago, and just about nothing has changed ever since. Any attempts at innovation like symbols baneling ultra play vs protoss quickly regressed to the more standard (and boring) broodlord infestor spine crawler turtle.
There's not much of a reason to try something new when the old things work fine.
I know players like to have the same map pool, but Every new Year they should put in new maps. FOr one as a viewer its cool to see different maps and match ups and players.
On January 03 2013 09:53 sCCrooked wrote: I do feel that the current map pool is a huge factor in holding back players and the community from finding new ways to play the game and push the meta forward with new ideas and ways to work things.
Maps are the best tool in balancing the game - Brood War is a fantastic example of that. We didn't have many balance patches - we only had 4 in total, and the last one was released in April, 2001. Only through constant map-patching did Brood War get to the near perfect balance we expect from its successor. Also, due to the constant stream of new maps, the metagame changed drastically over time, with huge leaps every few months or so - again, all this happened without altering the game itself.
When I got HoTs beta access the first thing i did was vetoing the old maps from WoL (CK, Daybreak, Antiga). Altough the new maps aren't that good balancing wise, i was really happy to play on new maps.^^ We need more change in Maps and Mappool!!!
Western tournaments don't generally want to just pick a map out of the blue because players and viewers might be disappointed by it. They might not even have the knowledge to pick a decent map.
If not a governing body like already mentioned in this thread, there might be a need for a regular map contest like the one TL held in late 2011 which introduced Clound Kingdom, Ohana and Korhal Compound the the general public (and organizers). The top placing maps in these contests are a safe bet for tournaments that would like to take new maps but don't know how.
I bought a proleague subscription because of their new map pool. I would love to take my business to NASL or IPL but will not until they update their map pool.
On January 05 2013 00:52 True_Spike wrote: Maps are the best tool in balancing the game - Brood War is a fantastic example of that. We didn't have many balance patches - we only had 4 in total, and the last one was released in April, 2001. Only through constant map-patching did Brood War get to the near perfect balance we expect from its successor. Also, due to the constant stream of new maps, the metagame changed drastically over time, with huge leaps every few months or so - again, all this happened without altering the game itself.
Yeah, this exactly. Even if a newer map is a little imbalanced as long as they keep rotating maps into and out of their map pool it won't matter as much. As of right now, maps are stagnate and we sit around waiting for blizzard to buff/nerf something hoping we will finally see something new on Antiga/Metropolis/Entombed/etc/etc/etc.
On January 05 2013 01:08 Azhrak wrote: Western tournaments don't generally want to just pick a map out of the blue because players and viewers might be disappointed by it. They might not even have the knowledge to pick a decent map.
I think this might have been true a year ago, because there was "a lot" more maps coming out and yeah I think that's mainly to do with things such as the TLMC or the IPL map contest, Playhem was picking up a bunch of random maps and using those in their dailies as well. Lastly, remember MLG still used Testbug which was something "new" when you compare it to other tournaments. Now though, everybody has almost the same exact map pool that we've seen for the past year now, with maybe 1 or 2 different maps thrown in, but even those different maps are still maps that are super old. (metropolis/atlantis spaceship/tda)
if tournaments say in advance what new maps they are going to be using for a particular tournament and give say 1 month at least notice. there is literally no excuse for 'pro gamers' who theoretically spend 6-10 hours a day playing this game, cannot devote some of that time to learning a new map(s). the impact of playing even 50 games during that time on a new map is negligible on their practice schedule. if they then have to go to a tourney and are unfamiliar with it then tough shit do ur job properly.
because at the moment the current map pool is beyond tedious to watch now, u can call what is going to happen in 90% of the games from start to finish by the time the casters are done introducing the players.
Change for change's sake is not good. The fact of the matter is the Shakuras, Ohana, Cloud Kingdom, and Tal'Darim Altar produce the most exciting and thrilling games in the map pool, and now we just got rid of 2 of them. I don't understand why we continue to like Daybreak, Metropolis, or Whirlwind (and we have only ourselves to blame - we voted to put Daybreak and Metropolis in the map pool). The SC2 community seems overly prone to want huge maps that might as well have a "no rush 15" tag on them. Until that changes, we aren't going to go anywhere. Blizzard has been following the over-arching desires of the SC2 community with its latest additions to the map pool - Condemned Ridge, Akilon Flats (the only interesting one), and Network District. Our palette must change. Until we desire fun maps, we won't get them. It's that simple.
Perhaps, too, the encouragement of creating deathballs is simply the major flaw of SC2 game design, one that the SC2 mapping community won't be able to overcome. Barrin's FMB idea is a good one, but the game would have to drastically redesigned to accommodate the altered economic structure. I would support that attempt, coupled with making units have more health/armor so that battles last longer. Taking the game as currently constructed, though, I'd rather have 1 or 2 base games with a lot of micro I can appreciate than a predictable 45 minute TvZ, TvP, or ZvP in which you know exactly what everyone is going to do 10 minutes in advance, and one in which, ultimately, I won't be able to fully appreciate all the micro that goes on in that final battle because the battle ends in roughly 5 seconds.
On January 05 2013 05:39 KJSharp wrote: Change for change's sake is not good. The fact of the matter is the Shakuras, Ohana, Cloud Kingdom, and Tal'Darim Altar produce the most exciting and thrilling games in the map pool, and now we just got rid of 2 of them. I don't understand why we continue to like Daybreak, Metropolis, or Whirlwind (and we have only ourselves to blame - we voted to put Daybreak and Metropolis in the map pool). The SC2 community seems overly prone to want huge maps that might as well have a "no rush 15" tag on them. Until that changes, we aren't going to go anywhere. Blizzard has been following the over-arching desires of the SC2 community with its latest additions to the map pool - Condemned Ridge, Akilon Flats (the only interesting one), and Network District. Our palette must change. Until we desire fun maps, we won't get them. It's that simple.
Perhaps, too, the encouragement of creating deathballs is simply the major flaw of SC2 game design, one that the SC2 mapping community won't be able to overcome. Barrin's FMB idea is a good one, but the game would have to drastically redesigned to accommodate the altered economic structure. I would support that attempt, coupled with making units have more health/armor so that battles last longer. Taking the game as currently constructed, though, I'd rather have 1 or 2 base games with a lot of micro I can appreciate than a predictable 45 minute TvZ, TvP, or ZvP in which you know exactly what everyone is going to do 10 minutes in advance, and one in which, ultimately, I won't be able to fully appreciate all the micro that goes on in that final battle because the battle ends in roughly 5 seconds.
Have you been watching games on the new proleague maps? They are 100x better than anything we've seen in the last 6 months. Maps that hang around too long make for really stale play, and only intensify any inherent imbalance in the maps. Plus, by changing maps frequently, you get to see who is really on top of the game and who can continually develop new and innovative strategies.
I agree that those maps look really good and are a lot of fun, but they exhibit features that have become anathema in the SC2 community, especially the way the SC2 community determines what types of maps should be put on the ladder. They have gold bases and naturals inside the main, for example. I'd support putting some of them on the ladder, but I doubt many would. I'd like to see maps come and go, too, Krazy, but I have lost a lot of faith in the SC2 community's ability to determine which maps should replace good old ones like Shakuras or Metalopolis. We struck gold with Tal'Darim, Ohana, and Cloud Kingdom. We whiffed on Metropolis and Daybreak.
On January 05 2013 08:10 KJSharp wrote: I agree that those maps look really good and are a lot of fun, but they exhibit features that have become anathema in the SC2 community, especially the way the SC2 community determines what types of maps should be put on the ladder. They have gold bases and naturals inside the main, for example. I'd support putting some of them on the ladder, but I doubt many would. I'd like to see maps come and go, too, Krazy, but I have lost a lot of faith in the SC2 community's ability to determine which maps should replace good old ones like Shakuras or Metalopolis. We struck gold with Tal'Darim, Ohana, and Cloud Kingdom. We whiffed on Metropolis and Daybreak.
What exactly is good about Shakuras? Or TDA? Or Metalopolis? None of them have any place in the current meta because all of them are wildly imbalanced. Maybe they were "thrilling" back in 2011 when the metagame was a lot less developed, but nowadays everyone is so damn good at macroing that every one of these maps would force one of the sides to all-in in some particular matchup.
I don't know what's particularly "thrilling" about watching the umpteenth Blink all-in on Shakuras.
its not just about refreshing the mappool, its about getting GOOD maps to replace the old ones with, id rather play on old good maps than new shitty maps.
On IPL FC 44, they just mentioned that they were looking into new maps, specifically mentioning Starry Night and Fruitland (if I heard correctly). Its great to see IPL looking into new maps even for Fight Club considering that they are rather conservative with their mappools.
I've actually had a pause from watching the tournaments due to this very issue. Same old maps - ~same strategies... And maps like whirlwind just aren't my flavour... I like Ohana - that's an exciting map... Smaller rush distances makes for more intensive games... Yet, you see tons of macro games on it... New maps! Smaller maps!
On January 08 2013 11:51 BrokenMirage wrote: On IPL FC 44, they just mentioned that they were looking into new maps, specifically mentioning Starry Night and Fruitland (if I heard correctly). Its great to see IPL looking into new maps even for Fight Club considering that they are rather conservative with their mappools.
Those maps look awesome. Fruitland is the coolest map I have ever seen. It actually looks like a map that is worthy of being in tournaments too, and not just a cool theme.
On January 08 2013 11:51 BrokenMirage wrote: On IPL FC 44, they just mentioned that they were looking into new maps, specifically mentioning Starry Night and Fruitland (if I heard correctly). Its great to see IPL looking into new maps even for Fight Club considering that they are rather conservative with their mappools.
That's good to hear! It's great that IPL is actually talking about it and hopefully soon enough changes up some of their maps. What I'd like for them to do when they pick up new maps is force players to start the series on the newer maps so they actually get some play time. One of the bigger problems I see is bringing in say 2 new maps but still having 7 old maps which means players will most likely pick the other 7 before they pick the 2 new ones. If every FC or IPTL started on say Starry Night / Fruitland / etc etc, then we'd see teams and players have to practice on these newer maps and hopefully get better at them and will want to use them more often. Plus, it might bring more viewers in. "You want to see the new maps get played? Tune in at 7pm to see the match on xxx!"
Unfortunately still nothing from MLG, NASL, IEM or GSL yet. I'd expect to hear something from GSL after the U&D matches and I'm hoping we hear something from IEM during or after their tournament in Katowice (Jan 18-20th)
On January 08 2013 11:51 BrokenMirage wrote: On IPL FC 44, they just mentioned that they were looking into new maps, specifically mentioning Starry Night and Fruitland (if I heard correctly). Its great to see IPL looking into new maps even for Fight Club considering that they are rather conservative with their mappools.
Unfortunately still nothing from MLG, NASL, IEM or GSL yet. I'd expect to hear something from GSL after the U&D matches and I'm hoping we hear something from IEM during or after their tournament in Katowice (Jan 18-20th)
GSL always announces the new map(s) after the Up & Downs. MLG will probably announce a 2013 season map pool much like they did a 2012 map pool.... and the entire season will probably be HotS... NASL map pool changed drastically every season since season 2 afaik... Don't know why this thread mentions them... They're also switching to HotS... IEM will probably announce a new map pool after the world championship in March... Along with HotS being the main game instead of WoL...
im heavy dissapointed with the new ladder maps... in general the maps become quite boring nowadays.... especially when u watch tournaments... it feels like u see 90% of games played on daybreak, cloud kingdom, ohana... kinda boring...
The map pools really do need to be changed, it really is only proleague which are using any new maps, gsl gets a new map every now and again, but I am really tired of seeing games on daybreak, antiga shipyard and so forth, new maps might also allow new strategies to be found out, or a previous imbalance no longer an imbalance because of the map design.
Couldn't agree more with this topic, the extremely boring map pools of tournaments have stopped me from watching any SC2 since I just can't stand the games that the maps produce.
On January 08 2013 11:51 BrokenMirage wrote: On IPL FC 44, they just mentioned that they were looking into new maps, specifically mentioning Starry Night and Fruitland (if I heard correctly). Its great to see IPL looking into new maps even for Fight Club considering that they are rather conservative with their mappools.
Tournaments need only look at Proleague to see the positive effect that new maps have on viewer interest and gameplay variety. Maps have a determinative impact on Starcraft gameplay and its just boring to have the same old ones.
If MLG continues to have TDA and Shakuras this year then the pitchfork mob is gonna be out in full force I suspect.
On January 08 2013 11:51 BrokenMirage wrote: On IPL FC 44, they just mentioned that they were looking into new maps, specifically mentioning Starry Night and Fruitland (if I heard correctly). Its great to see IPL looking into new maps even for Fight Club considering that they are rather conservative with their mappools.
Wow that's great.
That sounds amazing :D. I'd love new maps. The OP has hit an issue right on its head.
On January 08 2013 11:51 BrokenMirage wrote: On IPL FC 44, they just mentioned that they were looking into new maps, specifically mentioning Starry Night and Fruitland (if I heard correctly). Its great to see IPL looking into new maps even for Fight Club considering that they are rather conservative with their mappools.
Wow that's great.
That sounds amazing :D. I'd love new maps. The OP has hit an issue right on its head. I think a real issue is that what we have a real lack of is teams of map makers. We have some, but if we had more that did boot camps like the UW boot camp for starcraft, I think we would see big bursts of maps.
On January 08 2013 11:51 BrokenMirage wrote: On IPL FC 44, they just mentioned that they were looking into new maps, specifically mentioning Starry Night and Fruitland (if I heard correctly). Its great to see IPL looking into new maps even for Fight Club considering that they are rather conservative with their mappools.
Wow that's great.
That sounds amazing :D. I'd love new maps. The OP has hit an issue right on its head. I think a real issue is that what we have a real lack of is teams of map makers. We have some, but if we had more that did boot camps like the UW boot camp for starcraft, I think we would see big bursts of maps.
Sorry, but that just isn't true at all, and its a show of total ignorance. People have been trying and making maps for SC2 for the past 2 and a half years already, however most of them just get ignored. I dare say we wouldn't need to make another map for the next 2 years if only 1/5th of the maps that have been made over time, by the community, where tried out.
I fully agree with the OP, I want to see new maps constantly and consistently, at least 2 new maps every new tournament season with veto immunity on them for their debut tournament. The problem is, it is very, very difficult to produce a constant stream of fun and balanced maps, because of the heavy constraints from racial balance in SC2.
If a rush distance is too short the map is terran favored due to the potency of their all-ins and timings. If a map is too big it is heavily in favor of Toss or Zerg against terran due to the production mechanics and rally distance.
If a map is too chokey it is a nightmare for zergs because of the lack of good ranged units and the ease of FFing or building a tank line in key locations. If a map is too open then its nigh impossible to expand safely against a Zerg as either Toss or Terran, or to get a good engagement where your army isn't surrounded.
Those are just two of the biggest examples, there are a couple more, but they all lead to good maps being balanced on a razors edge, if the 3rd is just slightly too far away from the nat, or slightly too open then a toss is never going to expand on it except in rare cases and will most likely all-in. If its too defensive then it is too hard to attack and feels unfair for the zerg (and rightly so) because he can't punish it.
I love Proleague too, but realistically, their format and maps wouldn't work in many other tournaments, because you can't always avoid a unfavorable map and if you can't veto it (and you shouldn't be able to veto new maps in their first tournament), then you could end up with a lot of one sided tournaments. The maps need to be at least somewhat balanced.
The perfect game should have aggression start early and continue trough out the game with various army move outs, harass and pressure, but with both players managing to stabilize each time and macro behind it. Reaching the late game should be a challenge that we cherish to see every time, not the boring and standard norm we have come to see daily. That is no longer possible due to a combination of maps and design philosophy.
Starry Night seems like a love child of Crossfire and Cloud Kingdom in my opinion, and I remember seeing Fruitland a few months ago. It should also be noted that to a very real extent the burden is on these major tournaments. Sure smaller tournaments can use less known, or original maps but they do run the risk of viewership dropping off as a result, call it trickle down maponomics.
Just had a nice meeting, should be having some new maps come out soon for the IPL pool. Keep an eye on our streams for an official announcement in the next few days. Think we gotta get some stuff going through the higher guys. Rest assured, it is being talked about =)
On January 09 2013 02:20 jinorazi wrote: Whats with such hateful words.... ive played hunters and lost temple close to 10 years
This is a good note. I have not followed BW (until the very end) so I dont know how much the map pools were changing in BW. Maybe someone who followed a lot could tell us?
On the other hand, people need to be very careful about changing the map pool. First of all, people need to distinguish between team league map pools and individual league map pools. Part of what makes KESPA maps so good is, teams know which players are playing on which maps and they are mostly practicing said map (and when the lineups are announced, I guess they are practicing said matchup on said maps). But in individual leagues, this could only work for OSL and GSL - so tournaments with preparation. Individual tournaments, like MLG, IPL etc cannot change their maps just like that. Take KESPA maps for example - Bifrost is my most favourite map (that ramp around the map is just so awesome imo) closely followed by Arkanoid (Effort nydusing Baby few days ago was fucking epic), but can you imagine those maps being part of the map pool of MLG open bracket..?
Also, in Proleague, coaches decide what player plays on which map. So if anybody is supposed to be blamed for wrong players on wrong maps, it is the coaches. On the other hand, see GSL. How many times have we read that "TerranX is starting on mapY against ZergZ, but mapY is so imbalanced, they dont even need to play cause TerranX is gonna lose, fuck GSL I wont give them any money anymore". And now imagine, that (for example) Naniwa would be playing against (for example) Ryung in GSL semifinals and the first map would be Arkanoid. Can you imagine the whining that would follow? So yeah, imo tournaments should change their map pools, but community needs to be wary of what they are wishing for, cause I can already see how much whining will ensue if fan-favorite will lose on some kind of new map because his opponent found out some hidden imbalance (which happens especially to new maps).
Not even mentioning, that Starcraft community in general is so whiny that they just whine on ANYTHING new (be it maps, casters, units, abilities, basically whatever new is introduced is automatically bad). Of course, there will also be whining, that tournament maps are not on ladder, remember when there was no Daybreak/CK/Ohana on ladder? I wonder how much of this stagnant map pool can be attributed to players not wanting new maps and how much to tournaments worried that community would be much more whiny because of new maps, that they are currently whiny because of stable map pool
On January 09 2013 00:04 Doodsmack wrote: Tournaments need only look at Proleague to see the positive effect that new maps have on viewer interest and gameplay variety. Maps have a determinative impact on Starcraft gameplay and its just boring to have the same old ones.
If MLG continues to have TDA and Shakuras this year then the pitchfork mob is gonna be out in full force I suspect.
Nah. I will stick with voting with my eyes/pockets. ie. Not watching it at all.
Sometimes I wonder why people bitch about maps beyond serious balance issues (like over 60% win rate for one race).
I come from a competitive FPS background, and we CRIED for our old maps, the favourites. Things like Midship/Heretic and The Pit in Halo became our staples, like Daybreak or Cloud Kingdom could become.
Not really sure why there's a need to fix what isn't broken - but if it is obviously broken then it should be removed asap. Then again, it shouldn't be in the map pool if it's obviously broken to begin with.
On January 09 2013 10:20 Larkin wrote: Sometimes I wonder why people bitch about maps beyond serious balance issues (like over 60% win rate for one race).
I come from a competitive FPS background, and we CRIED for our old maps, the favourites. Things like Midship/Heretic and The Pit in Halo became our staples, like Daybreak or Cloud Kingdom could become.
Not really sure why there's a need to fix what isn't broken - but if it is obviously broken then it should be removed asap. Then again, it shouldn't be in the map pool if it's obviously broken to begin with.
As a spectator, I want to see new maps so that I may see new strategies unfold, new positionings be used, and overall a less stale game.
On January 09 2013 10:20 Larkin wrote: Sometimes I wonder why people bitch about maps beyond serious balance issues (like over 60% win rate for one race).
I come from a competitive FPS background, and we CRIED for our old maps, the favourites. Things like Midship/Heretic and The Pit in Halo became our staples, like Daybreak or Cloud Kingdom could become.
Not really sure why there's a need to fix what isn't broken - but if it is obviously broken then it should be removed asap. Then again, it shouldn't be in the map pool if it's obviously broken to begin with.
As a spectator, I want to see new maps so that I may see new strategies unfold, new positionings be used, and overall a less stale game.
Positionings I can agree with, it gets boring seeing "oh yep, there are broodlords over that canyon again" or "yeah, the terran's got his tanks in that nook again". Not quite the same in Halo when it was all about controlling a certain part of the map.
Though new strategies will develop not based on the map (unless they're the ridiculous kespa maps) but the game.
On January 09 2013 08:51 Robin_thewonder wrote: Just had a nice meeting, should be having some new maps come out soon for the IPL pool. Keep an eye on our streams for an official announcement in the next few days. Think we gotta get some stuff going through the higher guys. Rest assured, it is being talked about =)
Tim
This is very great news! Can't wait to see what IPL brings to the table. I've always been a huge fan of IPL in the past and having you guys actually take the time to post here and inform the community that you are looking into changes makes me respect you guys that much more. Thank you!
This is a good note. I have not followed BW (until the very end) so I dont know how much the map pools were changing in BW. Maybe someone who followed a lot could tell us?
On the other hand, people need to be very careful about changing the map pool. First of all, people need to distinguish between team league map pools and individual league map pools. Part of what makes KESPA maps so good is, teams know which players are playing on which maps and they are mostly practicing said map (and when the lineups are announced, I guess they are practicing said matchup on said maps). But in individual leagues, this could only work for OSL and GSL - so tournaments with preparation. Individual tournaments, like MLG, IPL etc cannot change their maps just like that. Take KESPA maps for example - Bifrost is my most favourite map (that ramp around the map is just so awesome imo) closely followed by Arkanoid (Effort nydusing Baby few days ago was fucking epic), but can you imagine those maps being part of the map pool of MLG open bracket..?
Also, in Proleague, coaches decide what player plays on which map. So if anybody is supposed to be blamed for wrong players on wrong maps, it is the coaches. On the other hand, see GSL. How many times have we read that "TerranX is starting on mapY against ZergZ, but mapY is so imbalanced, they dont even need to play cause TerranX is gonna lose, fuck GSL I wont give them any money anymore". And now imagine, that (for example) Naniwa would be playing against (for example) Ryung in GSL semifinals and the first map would be Arkanoid. Can you imagine the whining that would follow? So yeah, imo tournaments should change their map pools, but community needs to be wary of what they are wishing for, cause I can already see how much whining will ensue if fan-favorite will lose on some kind of new map because his opponent found out some hidden imbalance (which happens especially to new maps).
Not even mentioning, that Starcraft community in general is so whiny that they just whine on ANYTHING new (be it maps, casters, units, abilities, basically whatever new is introduced is automatically bad). Of course, there will also be whining, that tournament maps are not on ladder, remember when there was no Daybreak/CK/Ohana on ladder? I wonder how much of this stagnant map pool can be attributed to players not wanting new maps and how much to tournaments worried that community would be much more whiny because of new maps, that they are currently whiny because of stable map pool
Honestly, the maps don't have to be as crazy as the Proleague maps are. They can easily be your standard map and it would be more enjoyable because it's a new map. I don't really care if we get another 3 base easy turtle map, as long as it's not Metropolis. It's just something new to look at and there is the possibility of having new strategies on it, rather then seeing the same old stuff we've seen for years now. I don't care if we get another WonWonWon protoss OP map, as long as I don't have to see it on Ohana again where you can easily predict how a wonwonwon should be played out.
Also, how do we know for sure that the new Proleague maps are even imbalanced and wouldn't work for GSL? So far teams have sent out all different races to play on the maps. The main reason they got rid of TDA was because it was almost always ZvZ (They even said this was the reason they took it out). But every other map? They tweaked it up a little bit to try to make it more balance friendly for all races. I'd be willing to wager that the proleague maps aren't as imbalanced as some of the current maps we have.
Even if a map is released that is a little bit imbalanced, you can easily tweak the map up to make it more even. Hell, I'm fairly sure most map makers on TL could tweak a map and have it sent to the tournament organization within a day if they got asked to change something.
I never new how important the maps were until I started watching Proleague... now I know that they're one of the most important facets of tournaments, and of keeping the game fresh. Previously I wouldn't even really look at the map pool. There were always the same maps, and if there was a new map, it was really just the same exact design we've been seeing just in a slightly different way. But now with Proleauge, all the games on these new maps feel so fresh and new!
It's so much more entertaining when the players and viewers are still figuring out a new map, and any strategy could happen on it instead of 'standard' every single game.
Maps are the reason why sc2 is so boring. I can't even force myself to play anymore because playing the same stuff on the same map for years is just so mundane. These tournaments are just as guilty as blizzard.
On January 09 2013 10:20 Larkin wrote: Sometimes I wonder why people bitch about maps beyond serious balance issues (like over 60% win rate for one race).
I come from a competitive FPS background, and we CRIED for our old maps, the favourites. Things like Midship/Heretic and The Pit in Halo became our staples, like Daybreak or Cloud Kingdom could become.
Not really sure why there's a need to fix what isn't broken - but if it is obviously broken then it should be removed asap. Then again, it shouldn't be in the map pool if it's obviously broken to begin with.
There were like 5 events a year so you didnt exactly watch a ton of games on them. Not to mention they did shift out maps for more interesting ones. If you are watching multiple tournaments than the maps can get stale and after a year and 250+ games on a map it needs to get subbed out.
On January 09 2013 02:20 jinorazi wrote: Whats with such hateful words.... ive played hunters and lost temple close to 10 years
This is a good note. I have not followed BW (until the very end) so I dont know how much the map pools were changing in BW. Maybe someone who followed a lot could tell us?
I think from memory every season of proleague had a complete set of new maps. And I think OSL/MSL used mostly the same maps as proleague that season?
Your current team, EG, is participating in Proleague. What is the difference between Proleague and the GSTL?
Proleague is great because the maps are fresh. Thanks to the addition of new maps, I have also found a new interest in the game. I hope Blizzard would also care about SC2 that much and come out with new maps in the near future.
Proleague is great because the maps are fresh. Thanks to the addition of new maps, I have also found a new interest in the game. I hope Blizzard would also care about SC2 that much and come out with new maps in the near future.
On January 11 2013 06:53 SidianTheBard wrote: Thought this was interesting coming from HuK:
Your current team, EG, is participating in Proleague. What is the difference between Proleague and the GSTL?
Proleague is great because the maps are fresh. Thanks to the addition of new maps, I have also found a new interest in the game. I hope Blizzard would also care about SC2 that much and come out with new maps in the near future.
It's nice when you hear pro players say they want new maps to re-spark their interest in the game.
But Blizzard has come out with new maps.... Three infact since the time when Tournement started using the standard pool that we see everywhere...
I still think the biggest problem is how tournements refuse to adjust their mappool. The fact that Metropolis is still used just shows this.
An entire 3... OMG SO MANY MAPS FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR!!! Only one before this ladder season... and it's a terrible map. I vetoed it after my first game.
Anyways, in other news: and
2 or 3 new maps for GSL next week. Possibly one KeSPA map. Gonna guess they're removing Antiga and two of Daybreak, Entombed, and Cloud Kingdom. (edit - these being the maps that are a year old. )
I would especially like to see a return of a few small maps(steppes anyone?) just to spice things up. It's getting really boring to see the same macro game going on and on each and every single time...
On January 11 2013 06:53 SidianTheBard wrote: Thought this was interesting coming from HuK:
Your current team, EG, is participating in Proleague. What is the difference between Proleague and the GSTL?
Proleague is great because the maps are fresh. Thanks to the addition of new maps, I have also found a new interest in the game. I hope Blizzard would also care about SC2 that much and come out with new maps in the near future.
2 or 3 new maps for GSL next week. Possibly one KeSPA map. Gonna guess they're removing Antiga and two of Daybreak, Entombed, and Cloud Kingdom. (edit - these being the maps that are a year old. )
Well Blizzard actually "introduced" six maps during 2012 on ladder. Through alot of them are the tournement maps that we now have seen for use in over a year. And considering that this was a year where Blizzard was releashing an expansion it is only natural to have their reasources somewhat drained during this time. Coming from WOW i can tell that is always the case there.
"We’re also discussing our direction for the Heart of the Swarm map pool. Though we will go into further detail at a later date, we are currently planning to make heavier use of popular tournament maps, refresh the map pool more frequently than we did in Wings of Liberty, and work closely with tournament organizations around the world in order to collaborate on map development."
Now if only tournements actually added new maps that wasn't in use by Blizzard already then we were golden. Outside of GSL and Kespa there really isn't much initative to add new maps.
Also this should go without saying but the Kespa maps don't really stand a chance to pass the ladder rules.
EPT
Would be nice to see some foreign tourneys use some KESPA maps as well
Crossfire
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