• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 02:16
CEST 08:16
KST 15:16
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall6HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL40Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?12FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event16Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster14Weekly Cups (June 16-22): Clem strikes back1
StarCraft 2
General
How does the number of casters affect your enjoyment of esports? Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? StarCraft Mass Recall: SC1 campaigns on SC2 thread
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Semi Finals & Finals $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event HomeStory Cup 27 (June 27-29)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady
Brood War
General
Help: rep cant save [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Where did Hovz go?
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread [BSL20] ProLeague LB Final - Saturday 20:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
Game Sound vs. Music: The Im…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 591 users

[G] Map Pool Creation Guide

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
Diamond
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States10796 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-19 08:09:58
May 18 2012 20:57 GMT
#1
[image loading]

Map Pools. The most overlooked aspect yet most important aspect in Starcraft II. A map pool can change everything about a tournament. As much as people hate comparisons to Brood War, maps are very much the same, just with new tricks and features the new editor allows. To quote the effect maps had on Brood War I quote Liquipedia

Custom-made Maps are the bread and butter of competitive StarCraft. Without frequent exchange of maps to accomodate for trends and shifts in the meta game, the incredibly dynamic evolution of StarCraft progaming arguably could not have happened.


However in Starcraft II the rotation of maps has changed. While in both games it's true the good maps lasted longer then others (Metalopolis, Destination, etc) the lack of rotation of old or bad maps has changed. There is a great deal of factors such as ladder, however in the end tournaments can dictate the maps people play, and push the scene ahead, however this has not happened. Instead tournaments rely on map pools that other tournaments did, and it seems that maybe a lot of organizers do not understand building a pool.

Want to make a map pool that's good awesome? One that I won't complain on Twitter about? Read this.

Please note in this guide, all my sample pools are five maps, this is detailed why below, but also just is so I can save some time. Also this guide DOES NOT cover team league map pools, which I have little experience with, only individual leagues. For those that do not know, I own and run the ESV Map team, so many of the sample pools contain heavily ESV maps, this is not saying these are the exact maps that could be used, just the ones I personally know best.

Last warning is these are my opinions, they tend to be right in the long run, but just a fair warning.

[image loading]
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
Mr Chae wants you.... to make a good map pool!

So here you are, you are a tournament admin and you have a tournament all set up. However, maps have not been set up. What do you do? Easy, follow this guide and in a few simple steps you will have a map pool that not only is very fun to play on, but also will be well received by both the community, players, and mapmakers alike.

So I just grab 7 to 9 maps and throw them in, mainly just the ladder maps, right?

No. There is quite a few issues with a map pool like this, and we will cover them below. Just think, as a organizer of a tournament you are putting your heart and soul into to make the best possible why spend so little time on something so major? This can influence the style of games of you tournament, the overall run time, and a million other things. Would you just randomly grab a tournament structure and format? Obviously not, and a good map pool is just as important if not more important then a format.


[image loading]
+ Show Spoiler +
Let's start at square one, which maps are available to pick from. This is where you have the most choices in how you want to shape your map pool. The main decision you have to make comes down to do you make a traditional map pool or a innovative one. This will set the tone of your map pool and mindset going into the full creation stage, and is very important very much like having a clean opener in SC2 is to a player. Also like an opener, they have ups and down associated with them but offer different risk/reward factors.

Traditional Map Pool: This is the type that most major tournaments choose to go with modern day. This contains all maps that have been used in major tournaments or events before, and refuses to take chances with new maps.

Pros: Safe picks that are tried and tested, predictable game times, Non-Korean players will enjoy not having to learn new maps.
Cons: Expect your tournaments games to look like every other tournament, fans and mapmakers will complain.

Example Traditional Map Pool:
+ Show Spoiler +
MLG Shakuras Plateau
MLG Tal'Darim Altar
GSL Daybreak
GSL Cloud Kingdom
MLG Metalpolis


Innovative Map Pool
This is the true rarity in the Starcraft II scene. It focuses on using some of the traditional maps, but cycles out old maps in favor of new unexplored maps. While this contains more risks, it often contains even bigger rewards is great games. As far as I know only myself with the Korean Weekly and the GSL are using this style. Other orgs recently have been trying these types of pools, but we have not seen if they will continue to do so, or they did not continue to do so.

Pros: Contains some tried and tested maps while pressing boundaries, fans and mapmakers will applaud you.
Cons: Non-Korean players will complain about having to learn new maps or not train on them properly, more variance in game time.

Example Innovative Map Pool:
+ Show Spoiler +
GSL Cloud Kingdom
ESV Afterglow
GSL Daybreak
ESV Sidewinder
GSL Metropolis


Ok so you have seen both types, now you start your decision here. Do I want to stay standard and play it safe or do I want to take a risk with possibly a great reward? Neither choice is a wrong choice.


[image loading]
+ Show Spoiler +
One of the longest and biggest debates, "how many maps should I pick to compose my pool?" There is also no right answer to this one yet, however there is wrong answers. I will cover this section by going over each size and what is good/bad about it.

The one thing to keep in mind and that I will be showing here is how much practiced is required with each size. All players have different training regiments, but until you have played a map 20+ times (except for Gumiho or TaeJa), you will not be playing the map optimally. After 20 games, you may still not be using 100% of the map 100% right, but you will know a loy of the layouts, trick spots, and a lot of other map specific info.

8+ Maps:

[image loading]
What my face looks like when I see map pools with 8+ maps


Want to screw up your map pool? Put in this many maps. There is not a single excuse in the world for having a map pool this big. You have to add in artificial rules like double veto's just to make it work. Worse is that NO ONE is going to practice the entire pool, they are going to only practice a portion of it properly. If you are thinking of making a map pool of this size, stop right here and shrink it. If you are an organization that has both a individual league and a team league, have separate pools like the GSTL. Putting the responsibility of learning this many maps on a single player is too much, even for tournaments with massive prize pools. You will get a lower quality of game, and have to add in a slew of rules to accommodate for this. Any tournament that has this size of pool should immediately look to shrink it. If you have a 11 map pool, you need to scratch the entire pool, and start from square one as any modifications to bring it down to 7 or below will unbalance the style and scale of the pool.

7 Maps:
The golden standard of Starcraft II. For the longest time I personally believed this was the best way to do a pool. Allows for a BO7 with no repeats of maps. Still a big map pool, but not too big. If you choose a seven map pool, you will do alright. It will offer lots of variety in picks, and will likely not contain any racial imbalances that cannot be fixed with vetos.

However one thing I came to realize over time is that almost every tournament only has one BO7 series in the entire event. The finals. What I mean is that the best reason and the reason seven map pools became the golden standard is you potentially have a bo7 on all unique maps, no repeats.

This concept was designed when the map pools contained maps (Steppes of War, Kulas Ravine, close positions maps) that very heavily favored certain races (Terran) for a long period of time when no one knew how to play the game right, let alone abuse the maps (CatZ excluded). So players developed ways to play against a blackout Terran map pool, and individual players got good on different maps with different strategies. Now the overall map pool is a lot more fair and balanced, and some maps favor one race/match up (Sanshorn Mist T>Z), and some maps seem to have pretty even stats and just fluctuate with the metagame (Daybreak). There is more stability, and just including Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak, Entombed Valley, and Antiga Shipyard 1.2 (no golds, cross only) can provide a fair and balanced experience by themselves. By introducing three maps outside this core four on top, you are introducing more instability into your own tournament for no payoff.

No matter what tournament players are playing in, they practice those four maps (and historically there has always been a core four) leaving more time to prepare for your tournament. Instead of them being able to focus on the one non-core map they now need to focus on three, leading to sub-par preparation normally. You are rewarding the better player while still introducing a mechanic of that player having to go outside the norm to practice for your event.

If you already have a seven map pool, that's good however you should look to "trim some of the fat" with a 5 map pool as described below, but do not worry too much, a seven map pool is still very good.

5 Maps:
This is a new size of map pool that has not traditionally used in Starcraft, but been theorized on by notable community members on State of the Game like Artosis and Liquid`Nony. This is the size of map pool I have been using for my tournament, the ESV TV Korean Weekly for about 6 months now. I personally also believe this is the ideal map pool size for all tournaments, big or small in Starcraft II. Unlike in BW, BO7 is something that is actively used on a professional level and a four map pool would end with a lot of repeats. With a 5 map pool you only have a max of two repeats per five maps. In the event of a BO5, there is no repeat and all five maps are used.

Creating a smaller pool allows you to properly introduce new maps. The players will run into them more often in the tournament, they will have less to practice (since every pool has three+ known maps, even mine), and will get more time to figure out said map.

I think if you could teleport in time and see what kind of map pools are being used five years from now, this will be the type. It is easy for fans to follow, easy for players to practice, and easy for tournament's to introduce new maps to make themselves different from the rest. If in the future the BO5 standard for finals takes over however, this may all change. I think all tournaments should be looking as soon as possible to move to a five map format. If four maps ends up being the future, the change from five to four will be much smoother compared to the one from seven to four.

Relevant video


4 Maps:
Many people are probably wondering, why 4 maps? No one uses it? Well KeSPA does and in their first season in SC2 they are sticking with what they did in BW with SC2 at this point. So it needs to be addressed This is a very interesting format, and worked VERY well for the BO5 heavy BW leagues. It very well stand to be the better option for SC2, and until the proleague starts we really won't know, and even then it will take several seasons to be sure.

I admit I have never used a a map pool of only four maps, however I still feel that it would be an acceptable standard for tournaments.

3 Maps:
This happens from time to time with GSL qualifier related events. There is not much to talk about, if you intend to broadcast the tournament ever in any way shape or form, don't do this. If it's not meant to be broadcasted and will contain a large number of amateur players it can work. I cannot stress the point enough that your tournament loses most of it's appeal with these pools, and again should NEVER be used in anything that is broadcasted.

These pools also also allow for a bad pick of maps to influence a tournament deeply. Pick two maps that are heavily Terran favored, and you should end up with Terrans taking most of the Top 8, same with other races. You want racial diversity as much as possible and a three map pool decreases that.]


[image loading]
+ Show Spoiler +
This is where the fun begins.

2 player/4 player split
This should be one of the first concerns, and this is how you will help control game length so you don't have a tournament you were expecting to run in five hours take 15.

This is a pretty easy part really. The more four player maps you have, the longer the tournament will take. The reasoning being of course that on four player maps proxy'ing is even more risky than normal and it's only a move a player tends to use when up multiple games in a series, or when matched against an opponent they do not think they can beat in a straight up game.

You should always have at least two or more two player maps. Unless you have a very small tournament player wise (IEM for example) you should have more two player maps then four player. This will allow the tournament to flow better, and prevent all the two player maps from being veto'd (unless you are playing 8+ maps with double vetoes, sigh). You should never have all two player or all four player maps.

Map Size
This is something that gets very overlooked. At ESV we personally classify maps in three main categories:
1: Rush Maps
2: Medium Maps
3: Macro Maps
You should be looking to fill all the categories with a minimum of two "rush maps". This allows cheese to be a part of your tournament, and it is an important part of a tournament. This also forces your players to be diverse, and not be able to rely on only hitting large maps and winning off superior macro. The remaining 1-3 slots (depending on size of your map pool) should be depending on your tournament size and timeframe.

Examples:
Rush Maps: Ohana, Korhal Compound
Medium Maps: Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak
Macro Maps: Metropolis, Entombed Valley

Introducing new maps
I will make this simple because I want this to stick.

You will NEVER ruin a tournament by introducing 1-2 new maps (unless your map pool is three maps).

NEVER introduce more then two new maps in a tournament map pool. The ONLY exception is when updating versions (ie: Korhal Compound LE >>>> Korhal Compound TE) of commonly used maps.

Map age and quality of game
At a certain point in a maps life the map reaches the end of it's life. When this happens the map still "works" per se. You get games that play like standard games and they are ok. On a map that is not outdated, you will get a large number of "great" or "epic" games. On on outdated map, you will get many less. Every tournament wants to have those memorable games that everyone remembers, you are decreasing your odds of doing so by keeping in old maps. Many games will blur together with the 3000+ other games the viewer has seen on that map.

You are putting most of the time players that play this game for eight or more hours a day that do this for a profession, they can make a spectacular game on any map, but you can make more on a fresh map pool. Just because one game was great (for example Stephano/Kiwikaki on Shattered Temple) does not mean the map is great. It means Stephano and Kiwikaki is a great stylistic match up between two of the most creative minds of their respective races in the most violate non-mirror match up. They would have put on a show on Steppes of War, but a good map that does not make it.

When does a maps life start and end? A start point would be when it was accepted into ladder or major tournaments for the first time. Once a map has reached 8-12 months from that point, it should be looked at "Is the map producing interesting and fresh games?" needs to be the question you ask.

Now to call out a few, in my opinion, none of these maps should ever be used in a tournament that involved any type of a prize ever again because they have stagnated and the average quality of game has gone gone a lot. If you are a tourney admin and have one of these maps, you should remove it and look for a suitable replacement right away. You will only be benefiting your players, fans, and yourselves by doing so.

Shattered Temple 
Sanshorn Mist AE
Shakuras Pleateau
Terminus
Metalopolis
Bel'Shir Beach
Crossfire
Tal'Darim Altar
Dual sight
Xel'Naga Caverns
Testbug
Xel'Naga Fortress
Crevasse


Which version to use?
Ask the mapmaker! They will not bullshit you. If the LE is better, they will tell you. If the GSL version is the best they will tell you. These maps represent them, and they want them to play the best it can. When in doubt, don't use the LE.

As some general guidelines however you should look to use the version the map creator is actively using/pushing. An example of this would be Metropolis. Several revisions have been made to it. First was the stuff to fix the lag issues, then the removal of the island to prevent 0 supply wins. However there is a version with fixes for both of these, and it's one of the original versions! 대도시 Lite is a version of the map that has been published for a long time on the Korean server. It contains some fixes for the lag issues, and also has neutral tumors on the islands that require a unit with an attack and detection to kill. Many problems could have been solved by quickly asking the mapmaker about these issues and the fixes, and finding out everything is fixed in an alternate version.

Another example is tournaments that use Korhal Compound instead of the tournament focused Korhal Compound TE. Mapmakers hate having multiple versions of the same map generally and if they feel that a TE is worth it, there is often a reason behind it. Check with the mapmaker, have them explain why they made these changes or what your concerns are, most of the time the smallest things may be something that an entire map is designed around, and you can destroy the main idea behind a map without even realizing or meaning to if you just go edit the map on your own. Let the mapmakers work on your concerns with you, instead of grabbing whomever spent 12 minutes in the editor that one time in the office and having him edit it. Having 43 versions of one map is bad for everyone.


[image loading]
Ask a mapmaker! They are all accesible! They want to help you and present thier product and your tournament the best. In fact here is links on how to contact them right here on TL. I assure you they will be really helpful!

ESV Map Team: Click Here
Crux Map Team (GSL Mapmakers): Click Here
TPW Map Team: Click Here

Additionally some players have offered to provide their opinions on your map pool on SoTG, this is how to contact them. If you are a pro player that wants to be on this list let me know:

Liquid`Tyler: Click Here
Liquid`Sheth: Click Here

If you are a big enough tournament, just ask all your players, it will get lots of constructive stuff.

This is my no means 100% complete, but I think it should provide some good direction.
Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond
Diamond
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States10796 Posts
May 19 2012 02:29 GMT
#2
Let me know what you think of this !
Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond
DYEAlabaster
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Canada1009 Posts
May 19 2012 03:10 GMT
#3
Great Read Diamond, I agree with most points raised, HOWEVER, I feel that the average map pool has 4 map types, rather than three.

1- Rush Maps
Ohana, Antiga
2- Standard Maps
Daybreak, Entombed
3- Macro Maps
Metropolis, Whirwind
4- Strategy Maps
Cloud Kingdom
Strategy maps are those that require you to play differently from any standard game. Another example could be Crossfire LE. These maps are great, innovative, but need to be cycled out of map pools relatively quickly (after 2, max 3 seasons), because you figure out the way to play the map and this ruins both the quality of games and the balance of the map (Crossfire is the obvious example of an overstayed welcome, but CKLE is fast approaching this state as well).

If a tournament keeps a standard 3 (or perhaps 4) maps fitting into all the other categories, they can tamper with this map the most. Which means that map makers can innovate most with the non-standard map, meaning it's win-win for everyone

In my opinion, having 4 maps is a golden standard because it has one of each map type. Having 5 is ok because you can put in 1 more map into one of the primary 3 categories depending on what you are lacking (for example, in a pool of Daybreak, Metropolis, Ohana, and CKLE, you have all four maps with easy cheese due to spawning patterns, so throwing in a Whirwind might help. If you take out Daybreak and put in Entombed, you can put in a different rush map, for instance.

Anyway, those are my thoughts <3
Great write up Dia
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
May 19 2012 03:18 GMT
#4
Awesome read, thanks Diamond. Great 8k post. I hope all tournaments take note!

One thing I disagreed with, however:

7 Maps:
The golden standard of Starcraft II. For the longest time I personally believed this was the best way to do a pool. Allows for a BO7 with no repeats of maps. Still a big map pool, but not too big. If you choose a seven map pool, you will do alright. It will offer lots of variety in picks, and will likely not contain any racial imbalances that cannot be fixed with vetos.

However one thing I came to realize over time is that almost every tournament only has one BO7 series in the entire event. The finals. While that is great to be prepared for it, it is creating thousands of useless practice games for nothing, since all the players but the Top 2 will be forced to still practice all seven.

This is a minor problem, but still a problem nonetheless. In a tournament that may contain up to 200 players, why are 200 people practicing maps that only 2 people will use. You are making 99% of your player base work for something that only benefits the Top 1%. It's a inefficient system, and also with a veto system you sometimes create rounds that can go on forever if all the 2 player maps get veto'd out. If you already have a seven map pool, that's good however you should look to "trim some of the fat" with a 5 map pool as described below, but do not worry too much, a seven map pool is still very good.


While I agree that having 5-map pools may make for better games due to more intensified practice on fewer maps, I don't think the efficiency argument is quite the way you present it. Even though none of the players but the top 2 will actually use all 7 maps in one match (and actually usually not even in the finals unless they go 4-3), they will still get to play on every map, just spread out over multiple rounds of the tournament (unless they get knocked out round 1). Assuming the tournament fully cycles out maps in the rotation each round, you will see variety of all the maps.

My personal opinion on the number of maps in a pool would be that 7 is ideal for tournaments that allow one veto per player, but 5 is ideal if no vetoes are allowed.
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-19 03:29:23
May 19 2012 03:23 GMT
#5
--- Nuked ---
Encrypto
Profile Joined August 2010
United States442 Posts
May 19 2012 03:26 GMT
#6
Wow. This is a complete other specialization. It's like an art. Very interesting. Thanks for this.
Ruscour
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
5233 Posts
May 19 2012 03:29 GMT
#7
I didn't think you'd actually write this guide, I thought you were just joking. I agree with you though, and pleasantly surprised at the lack of ESV favouritism.
monitor
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2404 Posts
May 19 2012 03:32 GMT
#8
There's this aspect and then also having maps that favor a race by a small proportion so the veto system can "balance" matchups. It isn't a very popular strategy, but having a map like Metalopolis (for lack of a better example) in to balance Metropolis in TvZ can work.
Mapmaker & TLMC Judge. Amygdala, Frostline, Crimson Court, and Korhal Compound (WoL).
thurst0n
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States611 Posts
May 19 2012 03:36 GMT
#9
Nice.
What about having 6 maps, and allowing each player to veto a map in every Best of, it would limit players to 5 maps for each matchup still, and it would give KeSPA and the like their 4 map bo5's. (6-1-1=4 maps left over for the series)

there may be a problem with my idea, what do you guys think?
P.S. I'm nub. If you'd like you can follow me @xthurst but its not worth it ill be honest
DYEAlabaster
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Canada1009 Posts
May 19 2012 03:40 GMT
#10
On May 19 2012 12:36 thurst0n wrote:
Nice.
What about having 6 maps, and allowing each player to veto a map in every Best of, it would limit players to 5 maps for each matchup still, and it would give KeSPA and the like their 4 map bo5's. (6-1-1=4 maps left over for the series)

there may be a problem with my idea, what do you guys think?


Having 6 maps in a pool has all the negative aspects of 7 and 4. The repetition of 4 map pools with the need to practise 6 maps, only to have 2 vetoed means that this doesn't really work. You're actually taking away from players who want to develop map specific strategies by throwing in more maps that theoretically wouldn't be used.
Cele
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Germany4016 Posts
May 19 2012 03:43 GMT
#11
this was a great read. I never thought of picking map pools that extensive. However i´d like to note, to me it seems that Kespa using 4 maps is risking some boredom of repetition from viewers. Seeing just 4 maps all over might be a bit short.
Broodwar for life!
LuckoftheIrish
Profile Joined November 2011
United States4791 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-19 03:53:44
May 19 2012 03:48 GMT
#12
I would agree that there's a fourth type of map - the strategy map - and would throw Terminus in as one. I think it's also important to look at racial data, which you touched on. Even within a category - say, macro maps - there are some that are better for different races. Base placement, ramp sizes and locations and other factors can make one macro map hugely better for one race or another. A five-map pool that has a rush map, a macro map, two 'standard' maps and a strategy map can still be terrible if there's a racial imbalance. So our hypothetical map pool of:

Cloud Kingdom (TvZ, ZvP)
Crossfire (ZvP)
Metalopolis (TvZ)
Shakuras Plateau (TvP, ZvT)
Antiga Shipyard (TvP, TvZ)

- has serious problems (setting aside that it has lots of outdates maps in similar categories). Three of the maps trend strongly (more than a 5% swing) in favor of Terran in TvZ. Two trend strongly in favor of Z in the ZvP matchup. Two trend strongly in favor of T in the TvP matchup. Only Shakuras trends strongly against Terran in any matchup - TvZ. No map[ has a strong trend in favor of Protoss. This map pool sets Protoss players up for failure, and it ain't looking pretty for Zergs playing ZvTs either. You'd expect, all other things being equal, to have a lot more Terrans in your later rounds with this pool at the expense of Zergs and especially Protoss players. That makes your tournament much less compelling.
On Twitter @GosuGamers_LotI | Grubby has a huge head!
Ragoo
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany2773 Posts
May 19 2012 03:51 GMT
#13
While I disagree with some things you're doing nowadays, I wholeheartedly agree with this.

BW (and SotG) have been more than right about the smaller map pools. It's important that every maps can be practiced for every matchup to ensure the quality of the games and variety of strategies (opposed to playing the same general strategies on all maps).

Also it's much better for introducing new maps if you have small map pools where you can actually practice every single map.

I really hope tournaments realize this in the future. Repeating maps in bo7 final really isn't an issue at all if you made good map picks.

One more thing, admins/staff aren't really capable of judging maps properly and picking the right ones on their own. Sorry but this is something only the top mapmakers can really do... this may sound elitist but trust me it is the case...
Member of TPW mapmaking team/// twitter.com/Ragoo_ /// "goody represents border between explainable reason and supernatural" Cloud
Wafflelisk
Profile Joined October 2011
Canada1061 Posts
May 19 2012 03:55 GMT
#14
Really nice post. Even though I don't organize any tournaments, I still enjoyed reading this post.

As an aside, I'm especially enjoying Frigid Pass. I'd like to see more tournaments pick it up.
Waffles > Pancakes
FlukyS
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Ireland485 Posts
May 19 2012 04:00 GMT
#15
I wouldn't want to argue but I can see why in a best of 5 they would allow for like 9 maps and allow each player to veto 2. Like id hate to play on entombed and korhal for instance against a protoss. Entombed for obvious reasons if you spawn either close positions you have a really close rush distance and not much time to react, its really hard to trade units and not die too and that is bad for zerg and/or can never take a safe third because your third is more or less on top of their base and korhal because heavy sentry pushes to the third is really strong because you can use the hatch as part of the wall against the defending units. I veto these maps on ladder along with Ohana on ladder but that is more preference because I don't like facing mech on it.

Its interesting though because you can never have an entirely balanced map and blizzard went out to say they like having a certain amount of favor to make the match ups interesting. I do know the reason why having an 8+ map pool doesn't make much sense like the players have to train on each but what would I prefer? Id say id much prefer to train on them and waste some time because it might be vetoed rather than play on a map I know id have to work a lot harder to win on because the map is heavily favored for a match up or 2 like entombed.

As for maps I think are tournament viable or not I agree with all of them but id obviously add entombed. As for what id like to see more maps like cloud kingdom which I think is pretty balanced for me other than that cannon nook which needs to go die in a fire.
phiinix
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1169 Posts
May 19 2012 04:24 GMT
#16
I like the idea of putting in 1 or 2 new maps with every tourny pool. Considering how frequently they're run these days, I think 1 is better (in say a 7 map pool). The reason I like it is because it makes for spectating a little more exciting because it's just more new, and anticipation is what spectating is all about. The only potential issue is that it relies on players using the terrain well. Not necessarily exploits, but if it's played out exactly like all the other maps, it's not that exciting. Additionally, even if it's played out differently, it's really hard to see unless it's pointed out by a pro analyst caster, so it requires work from multiple parties to make new map additions worth it.

Like the idea, but I think players should have just as much say as map makers do when it comes to picking a pool.
Authweight
Profile Joined May 2010
United States304 Posts
May 19 2012 06:25 GMT
#17
On May 19 2012 13:24 phiinix wrote:
I like the idea of putting in 1 or 2 new maps with every tourny pool. Considering how frequently they're run these days, I think 1 is better (in say a 7 map pool). The reason I like it is because it makes for spectating a little more exciting because it's just more new, and anticipation is what spectating is all about. The only potential issue is that it relies on players using the terrain well. Not necessarily exploits, but if it's played out exactly like all the other maps, it's not that exciting. Additionally, even if it's played out differently, it's really hard to see unless it's pointed out by a pro analyst caster, so it requires work from multiple parties to make new map additions worth it.

Like the idea, but I think players should have just as much say as map makers do when it comes to picking a pool.


The problem is that many players want the map pool to remain mostly static, because they're comfortable with the maps that are out there now. The whole point of a changing map pool is to keep the players on their toes and reward players who know how to adapt their playstyle. Players like playing on "outdated" maps because they're figured out and very comfortable. The contention in the OP, though, is that the key to really exciting tournaments is to sometimes push the players outside their comfort zone, and make them try new approaches that they may not be as familiar with.
Diamond
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States10796 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-19 08:10:16
May 19 2012 06:32 GMT
#18
Going to re-word 7 maps section a bit, I wrote this in like 2 hours so there is some thoughts that did not come through clear.

Edit: Done, I don't know if it makes more or less sense now.

Edit 2: Expanded the 'which version" section.
Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond
pestilenz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Denmark379 Posts
May 19 2012 09:29 GMT
#19
I really hope this thread will get the deserved attention. People really underestimate the value of a good map pool, and just puts in "the standard old" maps in as a default even though they may be bad...

Nice read!
You can attack with this?!
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
May 21 2012 21:16 GMT
#20
On May 19 2012 12:18 -orb- wrote:
My personal opinion on the number of maps in a pool would be that 7 is ideal for tournaments that allow one veto per player, but 5 is ideal if no vetoes are allowed.

Most people choose which map to veto by which map they practice the least or by which they think is bad for the matchup they're about to play. These two reasons are damn good reasons to not have the map in the map pool at all. Vetoes are band-aids on bad map pools. Every map in a map pool should be thoroughly practiced by all players and no map should be bad for a certain matchup. And it's not out of laziness or lack of effort that players aren't able to practice every map pool. There are just too many maps out there and the map pools are too big. Just making up numbers, there are maybe 15 maps that might be used at a major tournament and a major tournament will require you to be ready to play on any of 7 maps in one weekend. That does not produce quality games. Not possible to practice all three matchups on that many maps.

People seem so freaked out about the possibility for an extremely imbalanced map to occupy 1/4 or 1/5 of a map pool for a few tournaments. It's not a big deal. It gets removed quickly.

The way it is now, we aren't really living. No risk no reward. So many maps are played in such generic ways that hardly anyone can do anything drastically different on any map. If we want to see variety and refinement and creativity, we must do that at the risk of some new strategy or innovation being imbalanced. The first players to exploit an imbalance get a few easy wins as a reward for seeing something that no one else did and then the map is promptly removed from all competitive play.
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 44m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 281
StarCraft: Brood War
PianO 400
Snow 148
Nal_rA 92
JulyZerg 82
ajuk12(nOOB) 43
Rock 35
Noble 15
Bale 7
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm107
League of Legends
JimRising 760
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1080
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King251
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor105
Other Games
summit1g7971
shahzam866
WinterStarcraft379
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick971
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH295
• OhrlRock 6
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• ZZZeroYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota231
League of Legends
• Rush1319
• Lourlo1276
• Stunt442
• HappyZerGling100
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
3h 44m
RSL Revival
3h 44m
ByuN vs Classic
Clem vs Cham
WardiTV European League
9h 44m
Replay Cast
17h 44m
RSL Revival
1d 3h
herO vs SHIN
Reynor vs Cure
WardiTV European League
1d 9h
FEL
1d 9h
Korean StarCraft League
1d 20h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
[ Show More ]
FEL
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
FEL
3 days
BSL: ProLeague
3 days
Dewalt vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-06-28
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.