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[G] Map Pool Creation Guide - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Bibbit
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada5377 Posts
July 23 2012 02:12 GMT
#41
Been re-watching some old(ish) BW vods today and I'm definitely hoping Sc2 can get to the point where there are maps that radically change how the game is played. Like Andromeda with its super easy mineral only, Outsider with its cool ring of bases, even HBR (and a number of similar "ridge" maps) with these ridges all over the place. But yeah, like it says in the OP, tournaments seem to be afraid of trying cool stuff out. T_T

Fingers crossed for Kespa!
Diamond
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States10796 Posts
July 27 2012 22:04 GMT
#42
Hi MLG please read me!
Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond
iGrok
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5142 Posts
July 27 2012 22:11 GMT
#43
Lol, <3 Diamond.

MLG can't actually care about the map pool. I mean even the casters know the map pool is dumb (One of them saying "There's gold bases on this map?" at Arena). But time and time again, they've shown no response, so I wouldn't waste your time trying to help MLG.
MOTM | Stim.tv | TL Mafia | Fantasy Fighting! | SNSD
Diamond
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States10796 Posts
July 27 2012 22:15 GMT
#44
On July 28 2012 07:11 iGrok wrote:
Lol, <3 Diamond.

MLG can't actually care about the map pool. I mean even the casters know the map pool is dumb (One of them saying "There's gold bases on this map?" at Arena). But time and time again, they've shown no response, so I wouldn't waste your time trying to help MLG.


That's what shocks me, you think that'd be the wake up call. But guess not.
Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond
dragoon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States695 Posts
July 27 2012 22:29 GMT
#45
wish mlg would follow this at least a little bit.

i love you
Sumadin
Profile Joined August 2011
Denmark588 Posts
July 28 2012 12:55 GMT
#46
You would think that with the new MLG season format it would make sence to have a change in mappool every season.

But nope MLG is fine with using the same pool for Spring and Summer. Only ladder maps left? Sure. Twice as slow as Blizzard? Why would that be a problem.....

Sigh.
The basic key to beating a priest is playing a deck that is terrible.
MetaXelor
Profile Joined April 2012
United States26 Posts
July 28 2012 18:15 GMT
#47
I wonder if any of the MLG guys pay attention to this post at all...
chuDr3t4
Profile Joined April 2010
Russian Federation484 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-09 07:32:17
August 09 2012 06:59 GMT
#48
ASUS ROG Summer had good map pool system for Bo5 all day erry day tournament:
7 maps in pool, 1 veto for each player. Every series was Bo5 except finals which was Bo7(all maps).

Actually, nevermind lol. 5 map pool would be still better.
I live in Russia. I wear the fufaika, valenoks and the shapka-ushanka with the red star. I drink vodka straight from the samovar, and my riding bear plays on the balalaika.
Sumadin
Profile Joined August 2011
Denmark588 Posts
August 12 2012 13:24 GMT
#49
So MLG did actually change something on their map pool. Antiga no longer has golds. In other words the one innovative thing on MLGs mappool is gone. IMO it is a step sideways... at best.

Ill be honest i am not against golds, infact i wanna see maps with golds, NEW maps that uses golds in an innovative way. But right now, even if these maps existed then we are stuck with what i would like to call the "ladder six"

The ladder six are:
+ Show Spoiler +
Antiga Shipyard
Daybreak
Entombed valley
Cloud Kingdom
Ohana
Metropolis(The former ladder map)


These 6 maps have kinda become the standard of tournement ladder pools. We see them listed in every major tournement usually only with minimal variation(Some pools needs 7 maps afterall). It has been like this for a few mounths now and personally i am starting to get really tired of it. It is the same problem as with the old stanated maps, only much earlier in these maps life span and i will try to explain why.

It is not a new thing to have an unofficial general pool for tournements. If you go back a year from now you could see that tournements mappools overlapped quite a bit aswell and if i were to name a simillar map group it would be the "GSL eight"

Those are:
+ Show Spoiler +
4 ladder maps from then:
Shattered Temple
Shakuras Pleateau
Metalopolis
Xel'Naga Caverns

Then 4 tournement maps from then:
Dual sight
Crevasse
Terminus
Taldarim altar(well sorta a tournement map)


So really everything is as it used to be right? No. The variation in maps have drastically fallen. First of all because those were 8 standard maps and now we got just 6(duh), but tournements still varied alot more away from those back then. Only 4 of the maps from this pool were ladder maps so there was alot other ladder maps that tournements could take and they would still be considered "safe" takes. Also back then there really wasn't a golden standard for map pool size. IPL 3 for example sported a glorius 11 maps for their map pool. Those were the days

Compared to today anyway. All the maps from the "ladder six" are ladder maps or were at some point, hence the name. The remaining ladder maps are either antiques or just not accepted by the general tournement scene. No variation here. If we look at other tournement maps only one that really seems to get some major play is Atlantis Spaceship(Again because they usually need 7 maps). We also generally don't see many 8+ mappools anymore. Good for players, bad for variety.

I don't see any quick fixes to this. GSL still updates their mappool regually so plenty to take from there yet noone seems to do that. Blizzard also have implemented a new map recently and we can't really push them to update the pool faster than this with HOTS coming up and stuff. It wouldn't solve much anyway because the reason we got the ladder six is because Blizzards mappool got too good, too "tempting" if you will. Ultrasafe yet totally balanced and players will still like it.

I just wanna put focus on this problem now. We generally have moved beyond the maps that Diamond listed as old and stagnated, but those we got now are fast getting to that point, because they are fewer and played more consistantly.

MLG is still really bad at this and this is kinda also a message to them. Once they around to their annual mappool update i hope they won't just go " Hey Shakuras is out, welcome Ohana". Because even then it will be too late, and it will just be another tournement following this stuck pool.
The basic key to beating a priest is playing a deck that is terrible.
Ragoo
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany2773 Posts
August 12 2012 13:34 GMT
#50
On August 12 2012 22:24 Sumadin wrote:
[...]We also generally don't see many 8+ mappools anymore. Good for players, bad for variety.[...]


That's wrong. Bigger map pools means you can train every individual map less and that means that maps have to be more standard (so you don't have to train specific strategies for specific maps) and map rotation is slower.
If tournaments used smaller map pools like in BW (4 or 5 maps) there would be more room for a faster map rotation and more innovative maps.

And saying we can't have 4 or 5 maps cos of bo7 is extremely shallow argument. I would definitely trade maps repeating for more interesting maps in the map pool any day.
It's not even boring if a map repeats, it's actually interesting to see what players do when they play each other a second time on a map.
Member of TPW mapmaking team/// twitter.com/Ragoo_ /// "goody represents border between explainable reason and supernatural" Cloud
Sumadin
Profile Joined August 2011
Denmark588 Posts
August 12 2012 15:08 GMT
#51
On August 12 2012 22:34 Ragoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2012 22:24 Sumadin wrote:
[...]We also generally don't see many 8+ mappools anymore. Good for players, bad for variety.[...]


That's wrong. Bigger map pools means you can train every individual map less and that means that maps have to be more standard (so you don't have to train specific strategies for specific maps) and map rotation is slower.
If tournaments used smaller map pools like in BW (4 or 5 maps) there would be more room for a faster map rotation and more innovative maps.

And saying we can't have 4 or 5 maps cos of bo7 is extremely shallow argument. I would definitely trade maps repeating for more interesting maps in the map pool any day.
It's not even boring if a map repeats, it's actually interesting to see what players do when they play each other a second time on a map.


That is not really my point. Yes smaller map pools allow for easier variety in mappools but we aren't seeing it. This pool of 6 maps have been dominant all over the major tournements. A year ago we had maybe 8 maps and a smaller number of maps that went on-off depending on how many maps the tournement wanted to use. It meant higher variety in the maps that was used and in the games that was played, even if mappools were still rather locked.

Now through most tournements only use 5-7 maps in their pool, but alot of them don't differ from this pool at all. It should be possible with smaller pools, but it isn't happening currently. I agree that through that smaller pools are better for players and allows them to train better for each map.
The basic key to beating a priest is playing a deck that is terrible.
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