EPTDear Tournaments of 2013: Maps - Page 6
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NotRandoMNamE
80 Posts
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Elite_
United States4259 Posts
On January 03 2013 09:42 SidianTheBard wrote: How many of us are sick of seeing the same maps being picked up tournament after tournament? I can not bear to see another full year of tournaments playing the same maps constantly. 2013 is bringing us HoTS and with all these balance and unit changes, we should also see map pool changes as well. Most of us are sick of seeing the same maps being played over and over again. Why are Antiga, Daybreak, Shakuras and TalDarim Altar still being played? IPL -------------- + Show Spoiler + I was looking forward to 2013, hoping that the bigger tournaments would really spice of their map pools because change is coming. Coming up soon is none other then a sc2 giant, the IPTL! They just posted their premier in the tournament section, niiiice, IPTL is back! I can't wait to see what map changes they might bring into the 2013 season. annnnnnnnd guess what. I got let down. Take a look: + Show Spoiler + IPLMap Atlantis Spaceship IPLMap Antiga Shipyard IPLMap Daybreak IPLMap Whirlwind IPLMap Cloud Kingdom IPLMap Metropolis IPLMap Ohana IPLMap Entombed Valley **Abyssal City** Why do we still have 3/4 of this map pool? These maps have either been around for years or have been proven to be imbalanced. So why are they still in the map pool? Worse case scenario you pick up a new map, something fresh and say it turns out imbalanced. Well, Metro is imbalanced for Zerg? Ohana is WonWonWon map? Entombed is 11/11 map? Players can veto if they absolutely need to. Also, it's your team league, if you bring in a new map that is imbalanced for a certain race then maybe (just like in proleague!) you'll see the teams only use certain races on certain maps. MLG -------------- + Show Spoiler + MLG is another huge tournament that can easily force new maps in 2013 for their tournaments to try to spice things up. I hope they don't let us down because if we get another year of Antiga, Daybreak, Entombed, Metropolis, Ohana or TDA I don't know how much more sc2 I will want to watch from MLG. (Did you know I just listed off their entire map pool from the fall championship minus Cloud Kingdom?) Hell, it was just last Summer, MLG was still using Shakuras in their map pool. Yes, the same map that was around when WoL came out. Glad I got to watch the same map get played for 2+ years! IEM -------------- + Show Spoiler + At least we can rely on IEM to make some changes right??? Nope, their first tournament of 2013 and it's still the same old map pool. Well, at least they are using whirlwind, that's a little different right? /yawn + Show Spoiler + Antiga Shipyard Cloud Kingdom Daybreak Entombed Valley Metropolis Ohana Whirlwind Proleague -------------- + Show Spoiler + I'm a map maker for sc2 and when Proleague released their new maps they were using for their season, my jaw hit the floor. I thought they were trash. Some of the worst imbalanced maps ever. Yet guess what? I, and many others, love watching games played on these maps because they aren't the same maps we've seen for years. They aren't the same strategies used for years. People try out innovated strategies on them. People Cheese, People Macro, People entertain on them. Hell, when TDA, Antiga or Ohana come up next on Proleague I minimize it (unless it's a player I really want to watch) because guess what, who gives a shit about TDA? That map hit it's prime 2 years ago, let it die already. Ohana? Great, WonWonWon incoming! That's only been happening for a year now and at this rate we've got at least another year (maybe 2!) before it will die off. GSL -------------- + Show Spoiler + GSL has been the best tournament to watch, not only because it has the highest level of competition but because it actually changes it map pool....slowly....I still believe they need to get rid of Entombed, Antiga and Daybreak and bring in 3 new maps, but at least they bring in something new every season. I'm looking forward to their announcement of their 2013 Season map pool and I hope we're not disappointed with the same maps we've seen for years. NASL -------------- + Show Spoiler + NASL was actually fairly good with their map pool imo, they changed it up a good chunk season to season. Just looking from Season 3 to Season 4 for instance the only maps that stayed the same were Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak & Ohana. I'm hoping Season 5 we see more changes to the map pool, maybe get rid of CK, Daybreak and Ohana this time which means they'd completely change their map pool in 2 seasons, which is great. I just hope they keep updating their maps and don't freeze their map pools for the next few seasons because even though they changed up their map pool almost completely, they changed it to maps we've already been seeing for years. IPL - Completely agree. They've changed 2 maps since IPL4 in April... MLG - Axeltoss posted in this thread, he might help. IEM - Agree Proleague - They're new to SC2. It's their first tournament outside of OSL. Give them a break. GSL - They'll change the map pool gradually like they always have. NASL - NASLS5 is HotS. The map pool will change with the game. | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
The real reason we don't have much variation in maps is that the gameplay places strict requirements on what maps can be used, where all maps have to follow the same format or become imbalanced: ramp into main, choke into 2nd and a safe third are both pretty much must haves. Both sides now have their 3 bases, can max out effectively and the rest of the map becomes relatively unimportant. What you should be asking for is gameplay changes in HotS that allow more varied maps, not map changes for the sake of map changes because experimentation has been done and changing maps to be more like dual sight or abyssal city (including some PL maps) only reverts the game back to 2 base timings. | ||
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algue
France1436 Posts
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MangoMountain
Norway2044 Posts
On January 04 2013 06:42 Derez wrote: Let's not forget in all the PL praising that their maps can be imbalanced as hell due to the fact that they can pick the race that plays on them. Most of their maps wouldn't hold up in a 1v1 GSL/MLG format. The real reason we don't have much variation in maps is that the gameplay places strict requirements on what maps can be used, where all maps have to follow the same format or become imbalanced: ramp into main, choke into 2nd and a safe third are both pretty much must haves. Both sides now have their 3 bases, can max out effectively and the rest of the map becomes relatively unimportant. What you should be asking for is gameplay changes in HotS that allow more varied maps, not map changes for the sake of map changes because experimentation has been done and changing maps to be more like dual sight or abyssal city (including some PL maps) only reverts the game back to 2 base timings. People have been saying this for years. I'm not gonna be convinced that the sc2 metagame is some mutated abberation with glass for bones that needs the same constraints on every map to not just collapse into a bloody mess, proleague has shown (yes I know it's a teamleague) that creativity in map making is completely possible even with forcefields as a part of gameplay. Even though the maps aren't always 50/50 in win rates, all the other maps we've been using for the last year and a half sure as hell aren't either. And dual sight and abbsyal city are terrible examples. They're not creative maps, they're just bad ones | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=391390 Proleague, replaces TDA & tweaks up their 4 new maps to try to make them more balanced. Feels refreshing to see changes only after 1 round of gameplay! It makes me excited to see what they'll keep changing through out the season. I'm crossing my fingers hoping they don't freeze their map pool now. Yes, they are a team league so they can change up their map pool more often...weird though, because why don't we see any of the other team leagues changing up their map pool? /shrug | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
If map is too imba, then they rotate it out within a season or two. But at least new maps provide a type of excitement that old "balanced maps" can never quite make .. tournaments don't have to go all out with new maps, just one or two every few seasons is conservative enough. Even Fighting Spirit got phased out in pro BW. Also, just because PL maps are filled with mirrors, doesn't mean they are massively imba .. just means its at least slightly imba, and teams are always looking to maximize their win chance. In the last season of pure BW, Outlier had almost no Terrans sent out on it, implying it was unplayable for Terran. In an interview, it was said that Outlier was indeed playable for terran, but teams would rather send Terrans on other maps. | ||
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LOLItsRyann
England551 Posts
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algue
France1436 Posts
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JazVM
Germany1196 Posts
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xuanzue
Colombia1747 Posts
Proleague is doing it right. and I think, I will only see proleague until hots. maybe the final of any other tournament. | ||
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
Also maps can change engagement styles as well which would allow Blizzard to explore balancing options for the game (although I doubt they'd do any serious changes with HOTS right around the Blizzard Corner). | ||
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Mirosuu
England283 Posts
On January 04 2013 01:42 HolydaKing wrote: Well, the Proleague maps kinda don't look balanced on some matchups. That's probably why we see so many mirror matchups. Still, it has got to point that i prefer to see perhaps imbalanced matches on new maps rather than the same map again and again... So thumbs up for the OP. The thing about discussing the amount of mirror matchups has now been shaken up a bit, as they've now updated their pool for R2, already. Adjusting the maps for any imbalances, and taking out maps that are TOO mirror heavy (TDA for ZvZ is their cited reason). I'd seriously be paying more attention not only to the maps, but the way they go about their business with new maps and the imbalances they provide. | ||
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Exarl25
1887 Posts
On January 04 2013 07:24 ArvickHero wrote: OSL and MSL had some of the most shit-imba maps played in their leagues. Said maps also prouced some of the most amazing fucking games ever (OSL Savior vs Iris @ Arkanoid, OSL Fantasy vs Jangbi @ Pathfinder, MSL Hiya vs Free @ Triathlon, etc etc). If map is too imba, then they rotate it out within a season or two. But at least new maps provide a type of excitement that old "balanced maps" can never quite make .. tournaments don't have to go all out with new maps, just one or two every few seasons is conservative enough. Even Fighting Spirit got phased out in pro BW. Also, just because PL maps are filled with mirrors, doesn't mean they are massively imba .. just means its at least slightly imba, and teams are always looking to maximize their win chance. In the last season of pure BW, Outlier had almost no Terrans sent out on it, implying it was unplayable for Terran. In an interview, it was said that Outlier was indeed playable for terran, but teams would rather send Terrans on other maps. God exactly this. Most of the time it takes players a while to really work out how to abuse a map anyway. It might not even be imbalanced for the first few months of it's lifespan. Just try new shit, keep things fresh, and if it's not working out? Simply try something else. It's not the end of the world. Tournaments have veto systems anyway so a player shouldn't have to be subjected to a map that's really bad for them. Hell I wonder how many of the current balance problems we have are to some extent due to the current map pools in the first place. | ||
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Pros
219 Posts
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
On January 04 2013 09:46 Pros wrote: I remember watching the English proleague casts with EGL and I cringed when the KeSPA maps were criticized for just having "one fight and then one guy just won", isn't that what we've been seeing for the past 6 months??? One fight = winner is what I've kinda had the impression of much of SC2 for a while. :S | ||
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BretZ
United States1510 Posts
This post is drawing very good attention. | ||
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IndyO
390 Posts
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Akamu
United States309 Posts
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
On January 04 2013 10:09 BretZ wrote: Kevin Knocke just announce on IPL they would be addressing the issue of TSL and players who had left teams, and a change in the map pool very soon. This post is drawing very good attention. Good to hear there, hopefully it's not just all talk and they'll do it soon, not soon™.  On January 04 2013 10:20 IndyO wrote: Yeah something new in regards to maps is definitely needed for 2013, its just such a shame we've lost so many good mappers on the way. But it's not like there hasn't been plenty of people trying to get it done. It's just you can't move and entire community into being being a project, let alone convincing all major tournament organizers and Blizzard to use maps. All the best luck for getting them to chance things though. Pretty sure a lot more mappers will start to come back with HotS. A lot more will come back as well if tournaments actually start to pick up more community maps. Think of how big the mapping community was when all those map tournaments were going on and you had a chance to get their map into tournament pools. | ||
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