EPTTournament makers: for the love of starcraft PLEASE shake up your map pool more frequently. We're bored to hell out here!
Dear Tournaments of 2013: Maps - Page 4
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ManicMarine
Australia409 Posts
Tournament makers: for the love of starcraft PLEASE shake up your map pool more frequently. We're bored to hell out here! | ||
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Nuclease
United States1049 Posts
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
Please stop applying double standards, and stop advocating Kespa maps. They are horrible. | ||
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sCFade
307 Posts
On January 03 2013 13:59 Wingblade wrote: Personally, I will be minimizing any games in non-Proleague tourneys if they use Kespa maps. You decry some maps for imbalance, then you advocate adding the most imbalanced maps in SC2 history into tournaments? When Blizzard makes bad maps, they are idiots and should give up. When Kespa does it, they are geniuses trying to spice up the metagame. Please stop applying double standards, and stop advocating Kespa maps. They are horrible. Seriously. One of the big reasons we've seen so many mirror matches is because all of the maps are so broken in favor of one race or another. | ||
Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On January 03 2013 10:11 SidianTheBard wrote: Yeah, I could see somewhere between 4 and 10 months depending on the map. For instance Cloud Kingdom I'm not complaining about too much because you can see so many different playstyles on this map that it is usually must more enjoyable to watch. Maps like Metropolis though just get extremely boring after a long time, so a shorter time they are in the pool the better. In BW, maps stayed around for a couple of months to a little over a year in the case of the most popular maps, and it worked well since the most popular maps were really good but didn't really overstay their welcome by much. | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On January 03 2013 14:00 sCFade wrote: Seriously. One of the big reasons we've seen so many mirror matches is because all of the maps are so broken in favor of one race or another. They are OKAY(and i use that very loosely), because having imba maps in a team based setting isn't the worst thing. But individual tournaments. That should never happen with these maps. Mix up the map pool if you really must, with community or blizzard maps that are actually good. Daybreak is one of the best maps ever made to this point. Why would you advocate removing it? It's extremely balanced, and has created great games. | ||
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On January 03 2013 14:12 Wingblade wrote: They are OKAY(and i use that very loosely), because having imba maps in a team based setting isn't the worst thing. But individual tournaments. That should never happen with these maps. Mix up the map pool if you really must, with community or blizzard maps that are actually good. Daybreak is one of the best maps ever made to this point. Why would you advocate removing it? It's extremely balanced, and has created great games. Because its the same thing over and over again (also its imbalances have been exposed). The fresher maps you see people trying things that you dont normally see because every timing isnt worked out because its imbalances arent completely understood yet and all the timings arent figured out. With Daybreak everything about it is known already and we arent going to see anything more from it. | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
On January 03 2013 13:59 Wingblade wrote: Personally, I will be minimizing any games in non-Proleague tourneys if they use Kespa maps. You decry some maps for imbalance, then you advocate adding the most imbalanced maps in SC2 history into tournaments? When Blizzard makes bad maps, they are idiots and should give up. When Kespa does it, they are geniuses trying to spice up the metagame. Please stop applying double standards, and stop advocating Kespa maps. They are horrible. I never in my OP said all tournaments should pick up the kespa maps. Hell, I even said they were trash but they are still fun to watch due to the team setting and being able to pick which race you can send out. Too many players here complain saying that there aren't enough tested maps and that's exactly the problem. No tournament does anything except take year old maps from GSL and assume they are good. Metropolis is imbalanced but since GSL used it for a season, MLG & IPL thought it'd be okay to keep using it forever. Trust me, as a map maker you are able to look at certain maps and be able to tell how they can play out, or at least what can happen. There are so many "standard" maps shown here on team liquid's mapping forum that are good enough for competitive play. They have the easy to hold natural, some have the easy to hold third, some have the hard to hold third, whatever you want, it's there. Yet the only excuse for tournaments never picking up new maps is the fear that it MIGHT be imbalanced. So instead we get tournaments that keep using the same maps over and over again causing the same old games over and over to the viewers. Yes, people love proleague because it's proleague, but ffs people love proleague because they actually have the balls to not use the same 7 maps that every other tournament has been using for the past 2 years. | ||
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Axeltoss
United States283 Posts
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X3GoldDot
Malaysia3840 Posts
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
A: Maps can't be balanced without supporting data to help identify problems. B: Most people forget most BW maps were imbalanced as shit and it worked ok. Seriously. At one point I was working on a project documenting how badly balanced most BW maps were, here's the data as I never got around to finishing it. As you can see most maps had MAJOR imbalances. And yet life was A-Ok. The world did not end. Note the data on the most recent maps is outdated since this was done in Feb. Link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlQhVOsTjU5mdG9scU9ZcWgtT3hHMHpJTV9jblUwa3c | ||
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Trasko
Sweden983 Posts
Whilst the old maps are nice and I like them, some refreshed maps would be appreciated! That's why I love watching Proleauge. It sparks new opportunities for new strategies. | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
On January 03 2013 14:53 X3GoldDot wrote: disagree entirely, proleague maps seem balanced, because its the proleague format, thats why you see alot of mirrors constantly, while it might be a good thing ( mirrors are better to watch nowadays), its not good for balance at all So you don't want new maps at all because the maps proleague have chosen have the chance to be imbalanced (we've seen them for a month now) so that pretty much says we can never have any new maps ever and should keep using Antiga for another year? Finding melee maps for sc2 isn't hard at all to do, will they be completely balanced? Who knows. But is that really a problem? If they slightly favor zerg it's okay because we just replaced metropolis anyway. If they slightly favor terran, great! Terran have been dying off since 2011. | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On January 03 2013 13:59 Wingblade wrote: Personally, I will be minimizing any games in non-Proleague tourneys if they use Kespa maps. You decry some maps for imbalance, then you advocate adding the most imbalanced maps in SC2 history into tournaments? When Blizzard makes bad maps, they are idiots and should give up. When Kespa does it, they are geniuses trying to spice up the metagame. Please stop applying double standards, and stop advocating Kespa maps. They are horrible. You (and the OP) are missing one key point. The onus should be on TEAM LEAGUES to introduce fresh maps. TEAM LEAGUES don't need to care about imbalance, because they are... team leagues. You pick who you send out, so map imbalance is irrelevant. Just send out the stronger race. In the short term, map balance gets tested, teams play the map, they send out the strong race, and then the map gets canned as unbalance. THAT IS FINE. WE NEED THAT. When a map has been determined as balanced enough in teamleagues, it can be easily used in individual competitions as people will have had some exposure to it. That means GSTL, IPTL, EGMC, Proleague all have a different kind of responsibility to the individual leagues because of the fact that map imbalances basically have a lot less significance, as they can be avoided through use of a team. That also means you can apply a double standard, because team leagues should be held to a different standard to individual leagues, which doesn't mean throwing imbalanced maps into individual competitions, but it does mean testing maps in team leagues. | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
So thumbs up for the OP. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
a) all major foreign tournament organizers sit together and decide on a common mappool with new maps b) blizzard overhauls the ladder mappool with mainly new maps and waits till the tournament orginaziers pick them up | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On January 04 2013 01:42 JustPassingBy wrote: In my opinion, there are only two options, which are equally impossible: a) all major foreign tournament organizers sit together and decide on a common mappool with new maps b) blizzard overhauls the ladder mappool with mainly new maps and waits till the tournament orginaziers pick them up I think to remember something like this between IEM, MLG and DH (?). But i don't know if that's a good thing because it does perhaps mean that new maps get implemented even more rarely. edit: ESL, MLG and DH it was. See: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382208¤tpage=4#65 | ||
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Butterednuts
United States859 Posts
Maps like Tal'Darim Altar was a 4gate fest for ever PvP purely based on the map and it's lack of ramp. That is why that strategy is so prevalent. I would hope that Blizzard looks into maps as a substantive reason for many race imbalances. While it isn't the only reason one race may be stronger than the other, maps surely enable them. | ||
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Pyloss
Germany1515 Posts
We need another TL Map Contest, with the first 3-4 maps beeing directly put in tournaments and ladder. | ||
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
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