EPTDear Tournaments of 2013: Maps - Page 10
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
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Robin_thewonder
154 Posts
Tim | ||
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WhiteSatin
United States308 Posts
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Ammanas
Slovakia2166 Posts
On January 09 2013 02:20 jinorazi wrote: Whats with such hateful words.... ive played hunters and lost temple close to 10 years This is a good note. I have not followed BW (until the very end) so I dont know how much the map pools were changing in BW. Maybe someone who followed a lot could tell us? On the other hand, people need to be very careful about changing the map pool. First of all, people need to distinguish between team league map pools and individual league map pools. Part of what makes KESPA maps so good is, teams know which players are playing on which maps and they are mostly practicing said map (and when the lineups are announced, I guess they are practicing said matchup on said maps). But in individual leagues, this could only work for OSL and GSL - so tournaments with preparation. Individual tournaments, like MLG, IPL etc cannot change their maps just like that. Take KESPA maps for example - Bifrost is my most favourite map (that ramp around the map is just so awesome imo) closely followed by Arkanoid (Effort nydusing Baby few days ago was fucking epic), but can you imagine those maps being part of the map pool of MLG open bracket..? Also, in Proleague, coaches decide what player plays on which map. So if anybody is supposed to be blamed for wrong players on wrong maps, it is the coaches. On the other hand, see GSL. How many times have we read that "TerranX is starting on mapY against ZergZ, but mapY is so imbalanced, they dont even need to play cause TerranX is gonna lose, fuck GSL I wont give them any money anymore". And now imagine, that (for example) Naniwa would be playing against (for example) Ryung in GSL semifinals and the first map would be Arkanoid. Can you imagine the whining that would follow? So yeah, imo tournaments should change their map pools, but community needs to be wary of what they are wishing for, cause I can already see how much whining will ensue if fan-favorite will lose on some kind of new map because his opponent found out some hidden imbalance (which happens especially to new maps). Not even mentioning, that Starcraft community in general is so whiny that they just whine on ANYTHING new (be it maps, casters, units, abilities, basically whatever new is introduced is automatically bad). Of course, there will also be whining, that tournament maps are not on ladder, remember when there was no Daybreak/CK/Ohana on ladder? I wonder how much of this stagnant map pool can be attributed to players not wanting new maps and how much to tournaments worried that community would be much more whiny because of new maps, that they are currently whiny because of stable map pool  | ||
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catplanetcatplanet
3837 Posts
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achan1058
1091 Posts
On January 09 2013 00:04 Doodsmack wrote: Tournaments need only look at Proleague to see the positive effect that new maps have on viewer interest and gameplay variety. Maps have a determinative impact on Starcraft gameplay and its just boring to have the same old ones. If MLG continues to have TDA and Shakuras this year then the pitchfork mob is gonna be out in full force I suspect. Nah. I will stick with voting with my eyes/pockets. ie. Not watching it at all. | ||
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scCassius
United States254 Posts
On January 09 2013 02:20 jinorazi wrote: Whats with such hateful words.... ive played hunters and lost temple close to 10 years But they haven't been competitive maps for close to 10 years/ | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
I come from a competitive FPS background, and we CRIED for our old maps, the favourites. Things like Midship/Heretic and The Pit in Halo became our staples, like Daybreak or Cloud Kingdom could become. Not really sure why there's a need to fix what isn't broken - but if it is obviously broken then it should be removed asap. Then again, it shouldn't be in the map pool if it's obviously broken to begin with. | ||
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xuanzue
Colombia1747 Posts
oh... look.... is CK again, brb in 12 mins, when the action begins. | ||
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Meerel
Germany713 Posts
pls tournaments try new stuff | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
On January 09 2013 02:20 jinorazi wrote: Whats with such hateful words.... ive played hunters and lost temple close to 10 years BGH #1 map of all time, next to fastest of course | ||
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Rkynick
85 Posts
On January 09 2013 10:20 Larkin wrote: Sometimes I wonder why people bitch about maps beyond serious balance issues (like over 60% win rate for one race). I come from a competitive FPS background, and we CRIED for our old maps, the favourites. Things like Midship/Heretic and The Pit in Halo became our staples, like Daybreak or Cloud Kingdom could become. Not really sure why there's a need to fix what isn't broken - but if it is obviously broken then it should be removed asap. Then again, it shouldn't be in the map pool if it's obviously broken to begin with. As a spectator, I want to see new maps so that I may see new strategies unfold, new positionings be used, and overall a less stale game. | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
On January 09 2013 10:47 Rkynick wrote: As a spectator, I want to see new maps so that I may see new strategies unfold, new positionings be used, and overall a less stale game. Positionings I can agree with, it gets boring seeing "oh yep, there are broodlords over that canyon again" or "yeah, the terran's got his tanks in that nook again". Not quite the same in Halo when it was all about controlling a certain part of the map. Though new strategies will develop not based on the map (unless they're the ridiculous kespa maps) but the game. | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2475 Posts
On January 09 2013 08:51 Robin_thewonder wrote: Just had a nice meeting, should be having some new maps come out soon for the IPL pool. Keep an eye on our streams for an official announcement in the next few days. Think we gotta get some stuff going through the higher guys. Rest assured, it is being talked about =) Tim This is very great news! Can't wait to see what IPL brings to the table. I've always been a huge fan of IPL in the past and having you guys actually take the time to post here and inform the community that you are looking into changes makes me respect you guys that much more. Thank you! On January 09 2013 09:27 Ammanas wrote: + Show Spoiler + This is a good note. I have not followed BW (until the very end) so I dont know how much the map pools were changing in BW. Maybe someone who followed a lot could tell us? On the other hand, people need to be very careful about changing the map pool. First of all, people need to distinguish between team league map pools and individual league map pools. Part of what makes KESPA maps so good is, teams know which players are playing on which maps and they are mostly practicing said map (and when the lineups are announced, I guess they are practicing said matchup on said maps). But in individual leagues, this could only work for OSL and GSL - so tournaments with preparation. Individual tournaments, like MLG, IPL etc cannot change their maps just like that. Take KESPA maps for example - Bifrost is my most favourite map (that ramp around the map is just so awesome imo) closely followed by Arkanoid (Effort nydusing Baby few days ago was fucking epic), but can you imagine those maps being part of the map pool of MLG open bracket..? Also, in Proleague, coaches decide what player plays on which map. So if anybody is supposed to be blamed for wrong players on wrong maps, it is the coaches. On the other hand, see GSL. How many times have we read that "TerranX is starting on mapY against ZergZ, but mapY is so imbalanced, they dont even need to play cause TerranX is gonna lose, fuck GSL I wont give them any money anymore". And now imagine, that (for example) Naniwa would be playing against (for example) Ryung in GSL semifinals and the first map would be Arkanoid. Can you imagine the whining that would follow? So yeah, imo tournaments should change their map pools, but community needs to be wary of what they are wishing for, cause I can already see how much whining will ensue if fan-favorite will lose on some kind of new map because his opponent found out some hidden imbalance (which happens especially to new maps). Not even mentioning, that Starcraft community in general is so whiny that they just whine on ANYTHING new (be it maps, casters, units, abilities, basically whatever new is introduced is automatically bad). Of course, there will also be whining, that tournament maps are not on ladder, remember when there was no Daybreak/CK/Ohana on ladder? I wonder how much of this stagnant map pool can be attributed to players not wanting new maps and how much to tournaments worried that community would be much more whiny because of new maps, that they are currently whiny because of stable map pool Honestly, the maps don't have to be as crazy as the Proleague maps are. They can easily be your standard map and it would be more enjoyable because it's a new map. I don't really care if we get another 3 base easy turtle map, as long as it's not Metropolis. It's just something new to look at and there is the possibility of having new strategies on it, rather then seeing the same old stuff we've seen for years now. I don't care if we get another WonWonWon protoss OP map, as long as I don't have to see it on Ohana again where you can easily predict how a wonwonwon should be played out. Also, how do we know for sure that the new Proleague maps are even imbalanced and wouldn't work for GSL? So far teams have sent out all different races to play on the maps. The main reason they got rid of TDA was because it was almost always ZvZ (They even said this was the reason they took it out). But every other map? They tweaked it up a little bit to try to make it more balance friendly for all races. I'd be willing to wager that the proleague maps aren't as imbalanced as some of the current maps we have. Even if a map is released that is a little bit imbalanced, you can easily tweak the map up to make it more even. Hell, I'm fairly sure most map makers on TL could tweak a map and have it sent to the tournament organization within a day if they got asked to change something. | ||
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Chronos.
United States805 Posts
I never new how important the maps were until I started watching Proleague... now I know that they're one of the most important facets of tournaments, and of keeping the game fresh. Previously I wouldn't even really look at the map pool. There were always the same maps, and if there was a new map, it was really just the same exact design we've been seeing just in a slightly different way. But now with Proleauge, all the games on these new maps feel so fresh and new! It's so much more entertaining when the players and viewers are still figuring out a new map, and any strategy could happen on it instead of 'standard' every single game. | ||
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andeh
United States904 Posts
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On January 09 2013 10:20 Larkin wrote: Sometimes I wonder why people bitch about maps beyond serious balance issues (like over 60% win rate for one race). I come from a competitive FPS background, and we CRIED for our old maps, the favourites. Things like Midship/Heretic and The Pit in Halo became our staples, like Daybreak or Cloud Kingdom could become. Not really sure why there's a need to fix what isn't broken - but if it is obviously broken then it should be removed asap. Then again, it shouldn't be in the map pool if it's obviously broken to begin with. There were like 5 events a year so you didnt exactly watch a ton of games on them. Not to mention they did shift out maps for more interesting ones. If you are watching multiple tournaments than the maps can get stale and after a year and 250+ games on a map it needs to get subbed out. | ||
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Pimpmuckl
Germany528 Posts
Yes. Yes. | ||
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samuraibael
Australia294 Posts
On January 09 2013 09:27 Ammanas wrote: This is a good note. I have not followed BW (until the very end) so I dont know how much the map pools were changing in BW. Maybe someone who followed a lot could tell us? I think from memory every season of proleague had a complete set of new maps. And I think OSL/MSL used mostly the same maps as proleague that season? | ||
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