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On December 28 2012 02:08 Epx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 23:01 EonuS wrote:
mavericK, you should try and make a mod like this for starcraft2 (if you will ever have the time that is) just to find out whether the game becomes much better or not. By that I mean all the fundamentals you changed with the mod (worker ai, clumping) to transfer over to sc2 design to really see if the game becomes more fun or not; thanks for putting the effort for the mod nonetheless, it's amazing what??? this is a sc2 mod ..
I think he means instead of a sc2bw custom, be a sc2 custom, with the wondering worker thing added, muta stacking added, perhaps pathing adjusted, etc
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Why can't we have tournaments with this mod?
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On December 28 2012 02:15 Chopin wrote:
Why can't we have tournaments with this mod?
Because maybe, its a tiny bit too early?
It just came out.
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Ok, got a chance to play several games yesterday. Thanks for everything Maverck, the game feels great, but there are a couple of things I feel could be improved.. These things disturbed me, and I hope you get a chance to fix this, since its basically whats keeping me from playing more:
1. SHIFT selecting units to add to group. Lets say you have control group 1 with 6 units. You want to add 6 more units. In broodwar, you select control group 1, then press shift, then make a square around your units and the game will only grab the 6 units left to fill the 12 max unit group. Great! In SC2BW, when you do this, it will grab every unit, and then deselect apparently random units from the selection to cap unit selection to 12. This sucks, as making groups for all your units seems very daunting and buggy. Cant really move stuff, then create another group, then move it, etc. Its annoying in.
2. Reaver seems way more vulnerable than in bw. Is splash ok?
3. Storm -> We need a new animation. I cant really se whats being hit, and with this storm i cant get the feeling of actually "carpetting" with storm
4. Is it possible to remove "patrol" to workers? Im not sure if bw had it or not, but spamming 0p0p0p0p can lead to your probes patrolling all around :/
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On December 28 2012 02:09 JieXian wrote:Show nested quote +Protip: The vulture patrol is a special case. The easiest way to achieve a fluid moving shot is to “double patrol click” towards your enemy, followed by a move in your previous direction. We wanted to implement something similar in difficulty level to Brood War patrol-micro. hold on, I though vulture patrol shot in bw was painlessly easy for me .. I remembered playing the 2 vultures vs infinite lings map
You had to move click vulture to a ~135-150 degree angle to enemy first before issuing patrol. That was 2 actions.
Couldn't be done by just patrolling when travelling 180 degrees from your enemy.
So tried making it 2 actions.
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1. SHIFT selecting units to add to group. Lets say you have control group 1 with 6 units. You want to add 6 more units. In broodwar, you select control group 1, then press shift, then make a square around your units and the game will only grab the 6 units left to fill the 12 max unit group. Great! In SC2BW, when you do this, it will grab every unit, and then deselect apparently random units from the selection to cap unit selection to 12. This sucks, as making groups for all your units seems very daunting and buggy. Cant really move stuff, then create another group, then move it, etc. Its annoying in.
Noticed this too, What I ended up doing at some times was control click a marine and stim, so I could stim them all at once, instead of each control group - obviously not working as intended.
I just played 2 games vs AI (they literally only build workers since they don't know what to do with these units), so it was mostly so I could get a feel of the game. Waited several minutes for a game, no one came 
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I think reaver's scarab is even more retarded than BW's scarab. Is it right?
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On December 28 2012 02:28 ( bush wrote:
I think reaver's scarab is even more retarded than BW's scarab. Is it right?
I agree
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On December 28 2012 02:23 Zenbrez wrote:Show nested quote +1. SHIFT selecting units to add to group. Lets say you have control group 1 with 6 units. You want to add 6 more units. In broodwar, you select control group 1, then press shift, then make a square around your units and the game will only grab the 6 units left to fill the 12 max unit group. Great! In SC2BW, when you do this, it will grab every unit, and then deselect apparently random units from the selection to cap unit selection to 12. This sucks, as making groups for all your units seems very daunting and buggy. Cant really move stuff, then create another group, then move it, etc. Its annoying in. Noticed this too, What I ended up doing at some times was control click a marine and stim, so I could stim them all at once, instead of each control group - obviously not working as intended. I just played 2 games vs AI (they literally only build workers since they don't know what to do with these units), so it was mostly so I could get a feel of the game. Waited several minutes for a game, no one came
Guys, you should not just create/join a SC2BW game; you will very rarely find a game that way.
I don't know if there are people there currently, but you should go to the chat channel SC2BW and organise games there.
Also, note that you will want to "create" a game (after you do find someone in channel "SC2BW" to play with), as that is the only way to set the game settings in the lobby. Fighting Spirit is the only 1v1 map as of 12/27/2012; look under Custom Games (not under Arcade).
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I think that a SC2BW tournament would get a ton of viewers, especially if a reputable organization were to host it.
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i noticed that the scourge doesnt rly atk anything in this mod. any time i tell them to hit something, they just instantly die upon impact, but the target doesnt receive any damage.
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On December 27 2012 08:11 LaLuSh wrote:
I admit moving shot may not be the most important or influential factor in actual gameplay. A great RTS game should however allow room for prodigiously dexterous players to distinguish themselves. If a specific feature has the potential to leave esport crowds in awe, it should be included in the game. End of discussion.
Okay, guy. I usually stop reading when OPs make foregone conclusions.
User was temp banned for this post.
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what is it called on EU
sc2bw rebalanced???
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On December 28 2012 01:06 Rapture_FBGM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 01:01 cHaNg-sTa wrote:On December 27 2012 21:31 Evangelist wrote:On December 27 2012 16:47 Patate wrote:On December 27 2012 16:28 MikeMM wrote:On December 27 2012 16:22 bLueSkY) wrote:
Additionally, to those saying "BLIZZARD NEEDS TO LEARN FROM THIS!#!@#". Let me remind you blizzard created sc1, blizzard implemented everything. I find it funny how people completely forget that blizzard created these "amazing" games you all worship and yet they're idiots.
Otherwise - great work on the mod. Obviously hard went into this, it looks good! Essentially SC1 was created by people who worked for Blizzard. SC2 was created by different people who imho are not so smart and talented as their predecessors. Important things like the income per base and how quickly people get maxed out is a reminder that the people who worked on SC2 have never watched professional BW, or are too stupid to catch the essence of it. And for those talking about CS or DoTA, and how players have rejected the newest game, in late 2012, the comparison with BW/SC2 cannot be done, because kespa HAS switched to SC2. It's not the players who have rejected the newest game, it's the viewers. The Last BW OSL was full, the first SC2 OSL was empty... GSL's finals can barely fill up an auditorium. The SC2 dev team has been VERY arrogant, it took them a major community uproar (Destiny's post, etc), to ANSWER, not even ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a problem in the actual game. In one week during the uproar, they have done more to improve Battle.Net 2.0 (which is still garbage compared to what ICCup and Fish have done with the old Bnet.. except the ladder system) than in two goddamn years.. and some people still collect minerals for Blizzard, like the mindless drones they are. As soon as the two main devs of the SC2 team sit down, open youtube, and grind the fuck out of hundreds of OSL and MSL games to understand why it has become a such deep and popular game, we will continue to have godawful foreign tournaments, with 3 unwatchable matchups (pvz, pvp, zvz), No matter how hard they will try to balance the game, if there arent: 1. WOW units, like the spider mines, reavers, lurkers.. you know, units that make the spectator gets up from his chair and hope for a jackpot hit. 2. The need to have more than 3 bases mining at the same time (too much income per base, as the OP have superbly showed the difference between the 2 games) 3. A real defender's advantage, therefore army splitting (map control BW, not map vision SC2) done by inefficient deathball movement Without these, even with balance, the people WILL NOT come back to this game. HSC had 25k viewers for its finals, and I have not seen the 60k-70k of the late 2011. Flash vs Naniwa has made viewers tuned up, but the games DO have to be more exciting, and also have to rely more on mechanics. There are reasons why Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, Savior, July , Nada... have been "bonjwas". People can mimick strats.. not mechanical skills. SC2 has almost entirely taken out the need to exceed in mechanical skills, so the games rely more on build order wins than before (also maps are way less important, because of my 3rd point above). SC2BW should be the new tournament play.. it's sad but true. Leave the Swarm hosts for the Blizzdrones, I want real Starcraft. Ahah. No offence but the reason why all that nonsense got replaced is because there were about 50 people watching Brood War when SC2 came out and it was about as friendly to the layman as quantum mechanics. Note, this is not because it was "harder" (it wasn't) but because it was an awkward, irritating design that simply wasn't suited for modern gaming. This is pretty silly argument. BW died down outside of Korea. BW will still alive and going strong in Korea. Guess what the condition of eSport was during that time outside of Korea? It was essentially non-existant across all games. The most popular "eSport" game at that time was probably the Halo series. It wasn't until recently where online gaming became more prominent and easily accessible that eSports took off. It was pretty much impossible for Blizzard to not make a SC2 game and have people get excited. Just look at Melee vs. Brawl. Melee was such a fun and competitive game that Nintendo went ahead and just completely destroyed any sort of high level advanced technique with Brawl. Yet, there's still more people playing Brawl just because it's the new game. The problem you have in eSports today is that there's a threshold between being too easy and being too hard that a lot of games have to consider in order to be popular. Too hard, then casual players won't even touch it and you don't build the audience. Too easy, then you have the pro players that get tired of it too easily and you lose the players (or it's just not fun to watch because it's too easy). Very much this. ^^ Though, oddly enough, but still awesome, Melee currently has more entrants than Brawl for the upcoming Apex 2013. Despite the Melee haters (which I don't understand), I'm glad Melee is still going strong thanks to the efforts of that community. Just had to note that because I come from the competitive Smash community. :p Honestly, at this point, I don't mind if there is never a true SC2BW. I just want SC2 to be improved fundamentally so that it's a better eSport and a more fun, exciting, and challenging, yet still accessible, game, which is not too much to ask because there are games that fit that criteria that exist already. If that direction happens to go the route of a true SC2BW, then good! But, if it doesn't, as long as its still changed for the best, then I'm happy.
Oh, I was a big part of the Smash community too. I remember the glory days of smashboards before Brawl infested it
I live in Texas and was a big part of the Texas smash community (was friends Crystal City and the Dkrew when first started). Went to Austin for school and became friends with Xelic/FASTLIKETREE/etc and we played smash every Friday. We would travel to tournaments all over Texas and even went to FC6 up in Indiana (that was awesome). When Brawl came out, it was exciting at first, but then it sucked the life out of everyone to the point where everyone slowly stopped playing Smash altogether. But yes, you are right that I have seen the Melee community rise again because they just had enough of trying to "reason" with Brawl players.
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On December 28 2012 01:36 dubRa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 01:01 cHaNg-sTa wrote:On December 27 2012 21:31 Evangelist wrote:On December 27 2012 16:47 Patate wrote:On December 27 2012 16:28 MikeMM wrote:On December 27 2012 16:22 bLueSkY) wrote:
Additionally, to those saying "BLIZZARD NEEDS TO LEARN FROM THIS!#!@#". Let me remind you blizzard created sc1, blizzard implemented everything. I find it funny how people completely forget that blizzard created these "amazing" games you all worship and yet they're idiots.
Otherwise - great work on the mod. Obviously hard went into this, it looks good! Essentially SC1 was created by people who worked for Blizzard. SC2 was created by different people who imho are not so smart and talented as their predecessors. Important things like the income per base and how quickly people get maxed out is a reminder that the people who worked on SC2 have never watched professional BW, or are too stupid to catch the essence of it. And for those talking about CS or DoTA, and how players have rejected the newest game, in late 2012, the comparison with BW/SC2 cannot be done, because kespa HAS switched to SC2. It's not the players who have rejected the newest game, it's the viewers. The Last BW OSL was full, the first SC2 OSL was empty... GSL's finals can barely fill up an auditorium. The SC2 dev team has been VERY arrogant, it took them a major community uproar (Destiny's post, etc), to ANSWER, not even ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a problem in the actual game. In one week during the uproar, they have done more to improve Battle.Net 2.0 (which is still garbage compared to what ICCup and Fish have done with the old Bnet.. except the ladder system) than in two goddamn years.. and some people still collect minerals for Blizzard, like the mindless drones they are. As soon as the two main devs of the SC2 team sit down, open youtube, and grind the fuck out of hundreds of OSL and MSL games to understand why it has become a such deep and popular game, we will continue to have godawful foreign tournaments, with 3 unwatchable matchups (pvz, pvp, zvz), No matter how hard they will try to balance the game, if there arent: 1. WOW units, like the spider mines, reavers, lurkers.. you know, units that make the spectator gets up from his chair and hope for a jackpot hit. 2. The need to have more than 3 bases mining at the same time (too much income per base, as the OP have superbly showed the difference between the 2 games) 3. A real defender's advantage, therefore army splitting (map control BW, not map vision SC2) done by inefficient deathball movement Without these, even with balance, the people WILL NOT come back to this game. HSC had 25k viewers for its finals, and I have not seen the 60k-70k of the late 2011. Flash vs Naniwa has made viewers tuned up, but the games DO have to be more exciting, and also have to rely more on mechanics. There are reasons why Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, Savior, July , Nada... have been "bonjwas". People can mimick strats.. not mechanical skills. SC2 has almost entirely taken out the need to exceed in mechanical skills, so the games rely more on build order wins than before (also maps are way less important, because of my 3rd point above). SC2BW should be the new tournament play.. it's sad but true. Leave the Swarm hosts for the Blizzdrones, I want real Starcraft. Ahah. No offence but the reason why all that nonsense got replaced is because there were about 50 people watching Brood War when SC2 came out and it was about as friendly to the layman as quantum mechanics. Note, this is not because it was "harder" (it wasn't) but because it was an awkward, irritating design that simply wasn't suited for modern gaming. This is pretty silly argument. BW died down outside of Korea. BW will still alive and going strong in Korea. Guess what the condition of eSport was during that time outside of Korea? It was essentially non-existant across all games. The most popular "eSport" game at that time was probably the Halo series. It wasn't until recently where online gaming became more prominent and easily accessible that eSports took off. It was pretty much impossible for Blizzard to not make a SC2 game and have people get excited. Just look at Melee vs. Brawl. Melee was such a fun and competitive game that Nintendo went ahead and just completely destroyed any sort of high level advanced technique with Brawl. Yet, there's still more people playing Brawl just because it's the new game. The problem you have in eSports today is that there's a threshold between being too easy and being too hard that a lot of games have to consider in order to be popular. Too hard, then casual players won't even touch it and you don't build the audience. Too easy, then you have the pro players that get tired of it too easily and you lose the players (or it's just not fun to watch because it's too easy). I can't tell why Brood War declined outside Korea, I wasn't there since the beginning. But I was into e-sports and you are wrong in describing the state of e-sports before sc2 came out. E-sports has its ups and downs since forever. 2008-09 was a really rough period because of the economic climate, e-sports relying on marketing money, but even so, it was never close to non-existent as you describe it. Were you talking about the NA scene? Because yes, the NA scene took a big hit after 2008 when CGS died. But Europe had its warcraft3, CS:S, 1.6, WoW, Quake, cod4, dota, fifa strong back then and Brood War was nowhere. How do you explain that?
I was a bit exaggerating when saying non-existent and I apologize for that. But yea, I was mainly talking about the NA scene (since I live here). Honestly, I think BW was nowhere, at least publicly, to be seen in NA or EU simply because Koreans were just too dominant at the game. It really discouraged a lot of people to even try to be at a top level when Korean sorta pioneered the BW movement/strats. So they were far ahead of the curve compared to everyone else. That's my explanation of it at least.
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Looks really well done, hopefully its executed the same :p
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i just played a whole mornings worth of sc2bw. prob more starcraft palyed than the past 4 months
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On December 28 2012 02:17 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 02:15 Chopin wrote:
Why can't we have tournaments with this mod? Because maybe, its a tiny bit too early? It just came out.
Its been out for a while. Long enough for Kiante to get his butt kicked in an old TL Attack in an early version.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
Whenever I wanted to play SC2BW the channel was always empty and I was forced to play my (bronze) brother
I really hope the community really jumps at this and we can get loads of SC2BW going!
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EPT
