I understand that you are confused and a bit disappointed in the decision somehow, but however to explain it:
In the first fight between my 2nd and 3rd base I took a similar fight against him (Infestor Roach on my side - and Hydra Roach on his side) and I fungaled <- the left side to fight on the right for a few seconds uncontested by the left side which couldnt move (obviously) and took the fight pretty convincingly.
I was going to do the exact same thing in the fight in front of his natural when the game dropped. I would've fight the left side (just a few hydras and roaches) and fungaled the right side (the main army). I also had 5 roaches at his 4th base (it was gone basically) while my base was up already. So the game was mine and I knew that.
However I understand that there are some discussions about the situatiuation and games were also lost while having this kind of lead - but I played really solid in both games in my opinion.
I am really disappointed that the game had to end like this (connection somehow broke) and I am sad aswell, since now I seem like a bad mannered player.
I am happy to see stephano making it out of the group and I would like to face him again while HSC VI and I appreciate his courage, to agree to the Win as it stands.
I hope you guys enjoy the remaining games and playoffs tomorrow - I will try my best and I hope I wont be "mindfucked" tomorrow.
I also feel sorry for DIMAGA and Snute, to be put in such a situation
thx for reading.
Take:
On December 22 2012 07:23 TaKeSeN wrote: Hey this is what i wrote on reddit.
Hello everyone i would like to give some of my own thoughts:
First of all we do have 2 Admins for this tournament and they run the tournament all day long. Before we were discussing the disconnect live on stream we have been talking to xlord and Stephano offcamera and i was talking to one of the admins what he thinks and at some point i saw that this situation is however you call it not fair for one of the players and from my memories i had a tournament in mind which was big too where we had 3 Players who could decide if its a regame or not. We would let them vote secretly and get the best possible decision (from my point of view cause these guys have the biggest knowledge about the game)
I asked Stephano/Xlord if this is okay for them and they actually liked the idea. So why should i not do it? In the rules it usually say that the admin has the last word and he can even change the rules spontaneously.
I think i could and should have decided it faster but this was a very bad situation for me cause this is homestorycup and usually all players are nice to each other and i didn t wanna have anyone with bad feelings and put up the best solution. So for this i want to appologize it made it bigger than it should have been.
I know that this was probably abit of a emotional answer by alex but i think and hope that i can talk to you in private and fix this situation.
I also want to mention one thing in alot of leagues when it s not over 100% you decide a regame but if the players agree on a result its over. Stephano said twice to xlord once live in the camera and once off camera that if he wants the win he can take it.
All together is just a shit situation and i m happy for Stephano that he still advanced. I talked to him after the MMA series and at least he told me that i shouldnt be sad or have bad feelings cause now thats what i actually have.
Sorry to all of you if this somehow fucked you up. I will not let this happen again.
Thanks for your time and i hope you can somehow understand my situation.
//Dennis
It was not perfect and i can understand that some people are angry and upset. This won t happen again.
I thought you completely deserved the win. It seemed obvious you had a nearly insurmountable lead. Of course we're all disappointed that we didn't get a couple of minutes more action.
Frankly I'd have been upset if the admins had forced a regame. They made the right decision to hand you the win.
Thank you for posting this. As a competitor, you should never feel ashamed to ask the rules to be enforced. This doesn't make you bad mannered at all. GL tomorrow!
Hi XlorD and respect for posting so soon after this to try and explain, I agree with some points you make and you played well and would of most likely taken it, however I think HSC is a community event, people want to see good games and games they know were over, when Snute said about the bo5 I was sure you'd be fine with it but you just basically lost it, fair enough there is money involved and I know its not easy for upcoming progamers but I think for the fans and the general atmosphere of the tournament you should of accepted a bo5
Problem, was the way it was handled, you can't blame any of the players in this situation. The admins are suppose to lead and make a decisions regarding this. They are the ones that fucked up. Instead we get fucked up drama with players and casters arguing on air and players posting stuff defending themselves afterwards.
Everyone could see that stephano did not agree with your win cause he thought you won, he just gave you the win cause he was annoyed by all the discussion going on.
nice move of you to explain yourself, but tbh I dont even see the need for that. A regame was offered, stephano declined it as he knew he lost and so you won. End of story. Disconnects still suck though.
I think almost everyone in your position would have want the win instead of bo5 or regame. I personaly can understand both points of view and to be honest i would had decide the same like you did.
Hope to see more games like against Stephano ( just without disconnect)
imo its not really a big deal. people getting mad at xlord for being vocal about it clearly have never competed in anything that takes a lot of effort. you become a different person and cannot be blamed for feeling the possibility of an unfair outcome after you competed, gave your all, SHOWED YOUR STRATEGIES (fuck the stupid fucking people who say he should have taken a bo5, that is ridiculous, stephano would have won and not necessarily because hes better but because of the mental advantage, anyone would know that, its like parting vs mkp in team league), and know that even though leads like the one he had were sometimes lost, in the moment you know, how focused you are, how you are playing, he knew he was going to win and anyone who knows about the game would also know this, hes not going to right click his infestors into stephano's natural and lose them all...so he was going to win.
On December 22 2012 06:35 Kenny_oro wrote: You're not seen as bad mannered for playing a good game. The disconnect wasn't your fault.
But what's the pont of arguing with the casters which already were forced in the uncomfortable situation to make a decission.
You should've just leaned back to wait for the decission instead of arguing with TLO on stream like a madman.
If you're that confident in your skill - why not just take the 20 and extend it to the BO5?
Nobody argued about your lead in that game - But a lead doesn't mean freewin. You should know that.
TL;DR version - "I say that you aren't bad mannered but arguing like a gypsy at a market for a free win, means that you are indeed a bad mannered player relying on free wins" Yep, I totally support that thinking too, Kenny_oro
As I said in the other thread players should never be able to overturn defwins given to them, it just leads to the community witchhunting the players that don't.
You should never get a win unless the game is 100% over. Also, that's not even my main issue with this. Bottom line is that you acted like a dick. Stephano would most certainly have given you a regame had you been in his position.
I really wanted Stephano to win the match, but I wouldn't have been comfortable if a regame happened then he won the next 2 games.
I had to go grocery shopping during the incident, came back and looked at the wiki. I'm happy you got the walkover, it was really deserved. You played really well.
I'm realy a big fan of MR.5:0 aswall as of Stephano! But tbh. i thought the game was over! Even tho some ppl think your a whiner or something like that, most of us would do the same if they think they got the game! not only bcs there were 875€ on the line, but for the feeling of justice itself! very happy ending with stehpano advancing!!
Guys, I don't see why we'd let Stephano a chance of winning if it was clearly gonna be 2-0. And that ''HSC is a community event'' argument is complete bullshit, it's a legitimate tournament with clearly enough money for them to care, and that just happens to be more fun than the other tournaments.
Xlord did what anyone would do in this situation by trying to secure what he obviously had.
The moment when denis said, lets extend it to a bo5 and you stood there crying was the moment when i saw that u have 0% sportmanship You wont get any respect by me and i hope you get kicked out of your team
if you wouldve won that easy, do it again , right? You were ahead? not upgrade wise stephano was 2/2 while you had 2-0 or 2-1 so everything couldve happened as soon as stephano has infestors.
My problem is that you were ahead, but because ZvZ is so volatile, that could change in a heartbeat. A ling run-by could snipe your 4th, Stephano's upgrades were better, there were so many variables to consider that it was impossible to say that you had that game won.
As for that engagement that you mentioned, the one outside Stephano's natural when the game froze, Stephano had more hydras, a much larger attack arc, and defenders advantage. Your infestor energy would have been neutralized by Stephano's hydras and attack arc, making fungals ineffective and infested terrans not very effective. If you won that engagement (which I doubt since Stephano is so close to his resupply) you might have been able to take the win, but if you lost that engagement, Stephano's counter-swing would have killed several infestors and maybe even your 4th.
But like I said, its hard to say in ZvZ. My biggest problem is the fact that you were at the casters couch while they were deliberating and trying to come to a decision. What the fuck man? Let the guys do their job, TLO and Dimaga said that they were uncomfortable with the decision, so you being there explaining how you were ahead, fucks that up. Just go get a drink, leave the couch, and let them make the decision.
All of this is moot because Stephano's, "I don't care" attitude solved the problem and he gave you the win. Shitty situation for everyone involved, but you should have acted better.
Edit:
On December 22 2012 06:35 Kenny_oro wrote: You're not seen as bad mannered for playing a good game. The disconnect wasn't your fault.
But what's the pont of arguing with the casters which already were forced in the uncomfortable situation to make a decission.
You should've just leaned back to wait for the decission instead of arguing with TLO on stream like a madman.
If you're that confident in your skill - why not just take the 20 and extend it to the BO5?
Nobody argued about your lead in that game - But a lead doesn't mean freewin. You should know that.
Unfortunately, I think there is no right decision in these kind of situations. Just make regame available from replay blizzard and we can move on from these kind of situations.
On December 22 2012 06:41 dAPhREAk wrote: people shouldn't blame players for enforcing rules, ever. its the rules and admins that deserve blame, if any, always.
exactly. its sad that a players is pressured by the wichthunt to post here..
On December 22 2012 06:41 emis wrote: You should never get a win unless the game is 100% over. Also, that's not even my main issue with this. Bottom line is that you acted like a dick. Stephano would most certainly have given you a regame had you been in his position.
How often are games ever 100% over when they actually end? You can always invoke the "oh he could have fallen out of his chair" argument. XlorD had a strong argument to make there and while he may not have argued it with the most class he was still justified in standing up for himself. Regames have been awarded for less and I feel like if it were the popular fan favorite who got awarded a win in that situation there would be no controversy.
On December 22 2012 06:44 Msr wrote: anybody who watched the game and thinks that xlord did not deserve the win is the same reason they are watching the game and not playing it....
unloseable position for xlord, and losing 3 maps inarow to a player as good as stephano is very possible.
While I respect your right to fight for the advantages you earned, and I do agree you played very well in both games, you, in my opinion HAD NOT WON.
Firstly, the engagement where you won took place on your side of the map, very close to your production and with more fungal energy. This time you where attacking into his side of the map, his production, in a better flank for him and with limited vision on your part and in range of his queens as well (more DPS and transfuse). Yes you where going to kill his 4th, yes you had a bank, but you didn't have the larva to immediately make use of it.
However this all comes down to the assumption now that you would have 100% won that fight, or fought cost efficiently, and this is your folly. Just because you won a similar fight in a more favorable conditions earlier, does not mean you will be able to execute the same fight again, especially in slightly worst conditions.
I see 3 possible outcomes. 1 You win the fight and thus the game decisively. 2 You lose the fight and even though you are not out, you still lose enough material to give Stephano a chance to come back. Depending on the magnitude of your loss you could give Stephano even better of a chance if you lose all your infestors. 3 You retreat to not engage in a bad position, you can come back later with a stronger army but this buys time for Stephano to establish better defenses, position and economy.
All of these have a chance to occur and since it all depends on each player's execution, (which is a random variable), then it is impossible to give you a clear win. Matter of fact, Stephano still had an army and intact production with good defensive position.
You where ahead, for sure, but not insurmountably ahead.
I understand your point of view and where you are coming from, but I disagree with how this was handled, you could have presented your case in a calmer and more concise way.
Anyway, gl and hf tomorrow, no ill feelings for what happened, just a sour taste left in my mouth.
You were definitely ahead, but I really think it should've been a regame because it was not a 100% win. But the biggest issue was the way you acted on stream to be honest.
Not needed. What is done is done. The decision was made and whether you agree with it or not it was the decision that was agreed upon by knowledgeable individuals. Best of luck!
PS I honestly don't think this is threadworthy, the decision was made and there's no going back. Everyone here has already, likely, expressed an opinion in the LR thread so kind of a waste. While it may be appreciated that you made a post, you don't have to, it was not your decision.
On December 22 2012 06:46 Destructicon wrote: While I respect your right to fight for the advantages you earned, and I do agree you played very well in both games, you, in my opinion HAD NOT WON.
Firstly, the engagement where you won took place on your side of the map, very close to your production and with more fungal energy. This time you where attacking into his side of the map, his production, in a better flank for him and with limited vision on your part and in range of his queens as well (more DPS and transfuse). Yes you where going to kill his 4th, yes you had a bank, but you didn't have the larva to immediately make use of it.
However this all comes down to the assumption now that you would have 100% won that fight, or fought cost efficiently, and this is your folly. Just because you won a similar fight in a more favorable conditions earlier, does not mean you will be able to execute the same fight again, especially in slightly worst conditions.
I see 3 possible outcomes. 1 You win the fight and thus the game decisively. 2 You lose the fight and even though you are not out, you still lose enough material to give Stephano a chance to come back. Depending on the magnitude of your loss you could give Stephano even better of a chance if you lose all your infestors. 3 You retreat to not engage in a bad position, you can come back later with a stronger army but this buys time for Stephano to establish better defenses, position and economy.
All of these have a chance to occur and since it all depends on each player's execution, (which is a random variable), then it is impossible to give you a clear win. Matter of fact, Stephano still had an army and intact production with good defensive position.
You where ahead, for sure, but not insurmountably ahead.
I understand your point of view and where you are coming from, but I disagree with how this was handled, you could have presented your case in a calmer and more concise way.
Sure, easy to say when you're not the person in that very situation. It's very understandable how Xlord reacted. He has all the right to defend his case for a win. Just as much as Stephano can make a case for a regame. If the Admins would have done their job and had made a decision it would have been better for almost everyone. Now it unnececarily went into some drama.
On December 22 2012 06:46 Destructicon wrote: Firstly, the engagement where you won took place on your side of the map, very close to your production and with more fungal energy.
Stephano didn't even have infestors when XlorD was at his base, Other than that I agree with you on a lot of points you made.
On December 22 2012 06:47 eurTsItniH wrote: You were definitely ahead-- But the biggest issue was the way you acted on stream to be honest.
I have to agree with this, if you had acted respectfully on the stream and when Stephano said he will give the win you would've thanked him instead of continuing to argue you wouldn't be getting so much hate right now. Of course there would be those who always whine about this stuff but at least you wouldn't have made yourself look bad.
On December 22 2012 06:50 ian952 wrote: XlorD should say sry to MMA too. I believe had Stephano won against XlorD, MMA could have had a better chance to advance..
Yeah, no.
Xlord doesn't need to apologize for shit, THE ADMINS ENFORCE THE RULES. If XlorD swayed the outcome with his arguments, then the ADMINS are the villians here.
Anyone blaming XlorD for this is quite literally stupid.
On December 22 2012 06:35 Kenny_oro wrote: You're not seen as bad mannered for playing a good game. The disconnect wasn't your fault.
But what's the pont of arguing with the casters which already were forced in the uncomfortable situation to make a decission.
You should've just leaned back to wait for the decission instead of arguing with TLO on stream like a madman.
If you're that confident in your skill - why not just take the 20 and extend it to the BO5?
Nobody argued about your lead in that game - But a lead doesn't mean freewin. You should know that.
TL;DR version - "I say that you aren't bad mannered but arguing like a gypsy at a market for a free win, means that you are indeed a bad mannered player relying on free wins" Yep, I totally support that thinking too, Kenny_oro
Indeed, it wouldn't even be an issue (on XLord's end at least) if he didn't rage to influence the judge's decision.
There were some problems in the decision making process. For a lot of players, I wouldn't call it a regame... however, we kinda have to take the player into account. We're dealing with stephano here. We've seen him time and time again pull off some of the most cost effective shit you can possibly do in the game. He stays His chances were slim, but there was a potential he could have done it.
That said, the biggest folly was allowing you (xlord) anywhere near the people trying to make the decision, especially when you couldn't keep your cool and were arguing every point they'd try to make. In every other sport, whether you're right or wrong, when you start arguing, in the manner you were, with the admins/refs while they're trying to make a decision that tends to end a technical foul or even ejection from the game. The admins should have had control of that.
You played well, but that whole decision making process was a joke.
On December 22 2012 06:35 Kenny_oro wrote: You're not seen as bad mannered for playing a good game. The disconnect wasn't your fault.
But what's the pont of arguing with the casters which already were forced in the uncomfortable situation to make a decission.
You should've just leaned back to wait for the decission instead of arguing with TLO on stream like a madman.
If you're that confident in your skill - why not just take the 20 and extend it to the BO5?
Nobody argued about your lead in that game - But a lead doesn't mean freewin. You should know that.
TL;DR version - "I say that you aren't bad mannered but arguing like a gypsy at a market for a free win, means that you are indeed a bad mannered player relying on free wins" Yep, I totally support that thinking too, Kenny_oro
Indeed, it wouldn't even be an issue (on XLord's end at least) if he didn't rage to influence the judge's decision.
And it wouldn't have had a chance to be an issue if the admins were remotely professional
On December 22 2012 06:50 ian952 wrote: XlorD should say sry to MMA too. I believe had Stephano won against XlorD, MMA could have had a better chance to advance..
Yeah, no.
Xlord doesn't need to apologize for shit, THE ADMINS ENFORCE THE RULES. If XlorD swayed the outcome with his arguments, then the ADMINS are the villians here.
Anyone blaming XlorD for this is quite literally stupid.
I agree with this, its basically the Admin's fault.
Apart from that I'm done discussing this issue, I presented my points in this thread and the HSC LR one, as clearly and cleanly as possible without any malice or ill will.
I merely wanted to point out to people that, despite how far ahead Xlord was, it wasn't a definitive win, I hope they take that into consideration and don't resort to "Xlord had that game won, you're an idiot".
Hopefully something good comes out of this, like better admining next time and clearer rules.
On December 22 2012 06:56 tribulator wrote: There were some problems in the decision making process. For a lot of players, I wouldn't call it a regame... however, we kinda have to take the player into account. We're dealing with stephano here. We've seen him time and time again pull off some of the most cost effective shit you can possibly do in the game. He stays His chances were slim, but there was a potential he could have done it.
That said, the biggest folly was allowing you (xlord) anywhere near the people trying to make the decision, especially when you couldn't keep your cool and were arguing every point they'd try to make. In every other sport, whether you're right or wrong, when you start arguing, in the manner you were, with the admins/refs while they're trying to make a decision that tends to end a technical foul or even ejection from the game. The admins should have had control of that.
You played well, but that whole decision making process was a joke.
rules apply for everyone you don't make exception for a player lol. when flash loses a game we should do a regame because there was obviously a problem lol.
On December 22 2012 06:50 ian952 wrote: XlorD should say sry to MMA too. I believe had Stephano won against XlorD, MMA could have had a better chance to advance..
Yeah, no.
Xlord doesn't need to apologize for shit, THE ADMINS ENFORCE THE RULES. If XlorD swayed the outcome with his arguments, then the ADMINS are the villians here.
Anyone blaming XlorD for this is quite literally stupid.
I agree with this, its basically the Admin's fault.
Apart from that I'm done discussing this issue, I presented my points in this thread and the HSC LR one, as clearly and cleanly as possible without any malice or ill will.
I merely wanted to point out to people that, despite how far ahead Xlord was, it wasn't a definitive win, I hope they take that into consideration and don't resort to "Xlord had that game won, you're an idiot".
Hopefully something good comes out of this, like better admining next time and clearer rules.
Yes, hopefully Take will make sure the rules are clear in the future and that the players cannot affect the decision in any way.
For me a game always should be a rematch if the game disconnect. ALWAYS. Even if one of the player gives the game away, cuz he was so far behind that player should need to do that ingame, in the game.
The game ain't over until it's over. 200 food vs 24 food and disconnect should still be a rematch.
And that is a rule that should be known to the players BEFORE the tournament starts.
On December 22 2012 07:00 Boosebus wrote: This is a situation that is 100% blame on Admins.
For me a game always should be a rematch if the game disconnect. ALWAYS. Even if one of the player gives the game away, cuz he was so far behind that player should need to do that ingame, in the game.
The game ain't over until it's over. 200 food vs 24 food and disconnect should still be a rematch.
And that is a rule that should be known to the players BEFORE the tournament starts.
No that would be stupid, a player could just keep hanging on the game hoping for a disconnect to happen.
On December 22 2012 07:00 Boosebus wrote: This is a situation that is 100% blame on Admins.
For me a game always should be a rematch if the game disconnect. ALWAYS. Even if one of the player gives the game away, cuz he was so far behind that player should need to do that ingame, in the game.
The game ain't over until it's over. 200 food vs 24 food and disconnect should still be a rematch.
And that is a rule that should be known to the players BEFORE the tournament starts.
So would like every player to drag out the game as long as possible to increase the chance of a disconnect? Cause that would be the most intelligent strategy for every player who is losing a game with such a rule.
this has been going on for ages, why are the admins not making these decisions. If you ask kobe bryant if he deserved the foul what do you think he is going to say. This is the reason for refs and admins to make choices so the players won't / shouldn't have to.
On December 22 2012 07:00 Boosebus wrote: This is a situation that is 100% blame on Admins.
For me a game always should be a rematch if the game disconnect. ALWAYS. Even if one of the player gives the game away, cuz he was so far behind that player should need to do that ingame, in the game.
The game ain't over until it's over. 200 food vs 24 food and disconnect should still be a rematch.
And that is a rule that should be known to the players BEFORE the tournament starts.
No that would be stupid, a player could just keep hanging on the game hoping for a disconnect to happen.
And how often do disconnect happend.
So, on what preferense should the jury judge on then?
Admins were at fault for dealing with the situation poorly. That being said, every DC should be a re-game by default, unless one person is so far ahead that there is no question whatsoever. This is to prevent lengthy discussion and bias by whoever judges it. Players should never be involved in the decision, because they are emotional and biased.
no player is not going to argue they are ahead or deserve a win when its competition or money on the line.
The lack of rules and admins regarding this is the real problem but no player is going to try to just brush off a game he or she is ahead and just say "ok, i'll regame" when he thinks he can win.
You can say Stephano would do the regame if he was in Xlord's shoes but he wasn't, so we can't really say anything on that. DCs like this happen all the time; this is just another case of it. Lack of policy regarding it is the primary reason I feel.
And how often do disconnect happend.
So, on what preferense should the jury judge on then?
Disconnects happen so often at tournaments. IPL TAC3 Taeja vs. Nestea is one prime example. GSTL Finals at IPL 4. Happens at MLG and lots of other tourneys too. It's not too uncommon.
On December 22 2012 07:00 Boosebus wrote: This is a situation that is 100% blame on Admins.
For me a game always should be a rematch if the game disconnect. ALWAYS. Even if one of the player gives the game away, cuz he was so far behind that player should need to do that ingame, in the game.
The game ain't over until it's over. 200 food vs 24 food and disconnect should still be a rematch.
And that is a rule that should be known to the players BEFORE the tournament starts.
So would like every player to drag out the game as long as possible to increase the chance of a disconnect? Cause that would be the most intelligent strategy for every player who is losing a game with such a rule.
...Staying in the game as long as possible is most player's winning strategy currently. Leaving the game is somewhat counterproductive.
So fucking lame man. They gave the great opurtinity to take 2-0 in BO5. Stephano is such a nice guy. But it wasent 100% win, maybe 80%
You just talking in YOUR POV what the fuck do your opponent feel? "I had 20% winchance but i dident get the chance to take it" Loosing withouth acctuly loosing. Really fucking bad manner man!
Do not worry Xlord you seem like a pretty manner guy who was just trying to do what was right. You were going to win that game very few people would debate that. Quite honestly the only reason that there are so many angry people right now is because it is Stephano and he has so many die-hard fans. Against most any other player this would not be such a big deal. I have to say props to Stephano though for immediately saying on Twitter that it was not your fault. I just wish the admins had a system in place and had made the decision quickly and decisively and the random drama could have been avoided.
On December 22 2012 07:00 Boosebus wrote: This is a situation that is 100% blame on Admins.
For me a game always should be a rematch if the game disconnect. ALWAYS. Even if one of the player gives the game away, cuz he was so far behind that player should need to do that ingame, in the game.
The game ain't over until it's over. 200 food vs 24 food and disconnect should still be a rematch.
And that is a rule that should be known to the players BEFORE the tournament starts.
So would like every player to drag out the game as long as possible to increase the chance of a disconnect? Cause that would be the most intelligent strategy for every player who is losing a game with such a rule.
I appreciate your view of the situation, but a ZvZ that close in supply is not over. You may have had a plan, but you've probably lost enough advantages in your time playing that you know that to call a game at that point is giving a massive advantage to the player receiving the win.
If you have to explain your plan for how you were going to win, you did not have the game won.
On December 22 2012 06:35 Kenny_oro wrote: You're not seen as bad mannered for playing a good game. The disconnect wasn't your fault.
But what's the pont of arguing with the casters which already were forced in the uncomfortable situation to make a decission.
You should've just leaned back to wait for the decission instead of arguing with TLO on stream like a madman.
If you're that confident in your skill - why not just take the 20 and extend it to the BO5?
Nobody argued about your lead in that game - But a lead doesn't mean freewin. You should know that.
100% agree. I feel you have like 0 professionalism. Yes it is probably your best result in your sc2 career but still - lost all respect for you for acting like a kid on stream (even though you were probably right).
Regame until there is rules about these kind of situations. If e-sports want to become [more] legit it has to have solution for these kind of situation. Like a superduper advanced matris so you could calculate who would win. OR - to have a jury in bigger tournament that haven't seen the game, that can watch the replay (without names!) and after that vote. So the jury dont know who is who. hard to fix tho
On December 22 2012 07:00 Boosebus wrote: This is a situation that is 100% blame on Admins.
For me a game always should be a rematch if the game disconnect. ALWAYS. Even if one of the player gives the game away, cuz he was so far behind that player should need to do that ingame, in the game.
The game ain't over until it's over. 200 food vs 24 food and disconnect should still be a rematch.
And that is a rule that should be known to the players BEFORE the tournament starts.
No that would be stupid, a player could just keep hanging on the game hoping for a disconnect to happen.
And how often do disconnect happend.
So, on what preferense should the jury judge on then?
On a case by case basis. Let me give an example to show your suggestion doesn't work:
PvT base race happens, Protoss left with 1 pylon and some army, Terran with 1 supple depot and some army.
Armies clash, what's left is 1 Phoenix for Protoss and 1 marauder for Terran.
Usually the Protoss player would gg out but in this case he stays in the game and keeps lifting the marauder trying to delay and suddently a disconnect happens where both players drop from the game and therefore it's a regame.
Tell me the Terran would not have 100% won that game and that a regame would be fair in a case like this.
Hello everyone i would like to give some of my own thoughts:
First of all we do have 2 Admins for this tournament and they run the tournament all day long. Before we were discussing the disconnect live on stream we have been talking to xlord and Stephano offcamera and i was talking to one of the admins what he thinks and at some point i saw that this situation is however you call it not fair for one of the players and from my memories i had a tournament in mind which was big too where we had 3 Players who could decide if its a regame or not. We would let them vote secretly and get the best possible decision (from my point of view cause these guys have the biggest knowledge about the game)
I asked Stephano/Xlord if this is okay for them and they actually liked the idea. So why should i not do it? In the rules it usually say that the admin has the last word and he can even change the rules spontaneously.
I think i could and should have decided it faster but this was a very bad situation for me cause this is homestorycup and usually all players are nice to each other and i didn t wanna have anyone with bad feelings and put up the best solution. So for this i want to appologize it made it bigger than it should have been.
I know that this was probably abit of a emotional answer by alex but i think and hope that i can talk to you in private and fix this situation.
I also want to mention one thing in alot of leagues when it s not over 100% you decide a regame but if the players agree on a result its over. Stephano said twice to xlord once live in the camera and once off camera that if he wants the win he can take it.
All together is just a shit situation and i m happy for Stephano that he still advanced. I talked to him after the MMA series and at least he told me that i shouldnt be sad or have bad feelings cause now thats what i actually have.
Sorry to all of you if this somehow fucked you up. I will not let this happen again.
Thanks for your time and i hope you can somehow understand my situation.
//Dennis
It was not perfect and i can understand that some people are angry and upset. This won t happen again.
On December 22 2012 07:11 VirgilSC2 wrote: Really amusing that in a very similar point in a certain infamous PartinG vs MKP game people were angry and wanted the freewin for PartinG.
This game was closer than the MKP-Parting one because Xlord looked like he wanted to take the fight. And at that point it was 165 supply with 2-2 and the defender's advantage against 180 supply with 2-0 and the better army. Not a situation you can clearly call. That's why casters were scared about Xlord not pulling back.
On December 22 2012 07:13 Darkhoarse wrote: Do not worry Xlord you seem like a pretty manner guy who was just trying to do what was right. You were going to win that game very few people would debate that. Quite honestly the only reason that there are so many angry people right now is because it is Stephano and he has so many die-hard fans. Against most any other player this would not be such a big deal. I have to say props to Stephano though for immediately saying on Twitter that it was not your fault. I just wish the admins had a system in place and had made the decision quickly and decisively and the random drama could have been avoided.
that not the thing. there were a lot of decesion for a regame, when the player was even more behind MKP vs Parting GSTL finals. Nobody gonna denie he is gonna win the game probaly 90% of the time.
Ppl just hate him, because the way he acted. He put emotianal pressure on the other player who didnt wanna deceided anyway. Its just bm and he didnt act like a champion and he even was still bitching around after stephano was fed up and gave him the win.
The only person who actully was aware of the mess, was TLO. He said they should discuss it of stream. Its too 100% regame. Admin messed up and Xlord acted poor. Way to get fans. Arroganz is fine, but the lack of respect was awful.
There is a difference between a lead and an over game, there was a lead although a relatively strong one there was no way that justifies a free win. Everything could happen in SC and this was a sad turn of events.
On December 22 2012 07:23 TaKeSeN wrote: Hey this is what i wrote on reddit.
Hello everyone i would like to give some of my own thoughts:
First of all we do have 2 Admins for this tournament and they run the tournament all day long. Before we were discussing the disconnect live on stream we have been talking to xlord and Stephano offcamera and i was talking to one of the admins what he thinks and at some point i saw that this situation is however you call it not fair for one of the players and from my memories i had a tournament in mind which was big too where we had 3 Players who could decide if its a regame or not. We would let them vote secretly and get the best possible decision (from my point of view cause these guys have the biggest knowledge about the game)
I asked Stephano/Xlord if this is okay for them and they actually liked the idea. So why should i not do it? In the rules it usually say that the admin has the last word and he can even change the rules spontaneously.
I think i could and should have decided it faster but this was a very bad situation for me cause this is homestorycup and usually all players are nice to each other and i didn t wanna have anyone with bad feelings and put up the best solution. So for this i want to appologize it made it bigger than it should have been.
I know that this was probably abit of a emotional answer by alex but i think and hope that i can talk to you in private and fix this situation.
I also want to mention one thing in alot of leagues when it s not over 100% you decide a regame but if the players agree on a result its over. Stephano said twice to xlord once live in the camera and once off camera that if he wants the win he can take it.
All together is just a shit situation and i m happy for Stephano that he still advanced. I talked to him after the MMA series and at least he told me that i shouldnt be sad or have bad feelings cause now thats what i actually have.
Sorry to all of you if this somehow fucked you up. I will not let this happen again.
Thanks for your time and i hope you can somehow understand my situation.
//Dennis
It was not perfect and i can understand that some people are angry and upset. This won t happen again.
good response.
i think they did that player thing in the teamliquid star league. they had a few players look at a replay and determine what to do about it. they did a huge ass write up after the fact too to show their thinking. i dont think thats necessary here, but it was nice to see it there.
I think it should be 100% regame until HotS is rleased an fixes this issue. Having a series of qualifications for who "would, shoulda, coulda" won would be nigh impossible to fairly define.
On December 22 2012 07:11 VirgilSC2 wrote: Really amusing that in a very similar point in a certain infamous PartinG vs MKP game people were angry and wanted the freewin for PartinG.
MKP had something like 2 marauders and 10 supply... while both ended in regames, I don't think you can really compare them. If Parting had been attacked by deadly ninjas at that point in the game, he still probably would have won despite all the stab wounds. Stephano at least had a chance for a comeback, even if it was slim.
The GSTL was also unfortunate enough to turn a very interesting series into a one sided stomping with that one regame, which colored a lot of people's opinions of it.
I think the only solution is to have skilled admins who know the game inside out. There's no good way to make a rule to govern all disconnects. It should be left in the hands of those in charge, but those in charge need to be held to higher standards of professionalism and game knowledge.
On December 22 2012 07:23 TaKeSeN wrote: Hey this is what i wrote on reddit.
Hello everyone i would like to give some of my own thoughts:
First of all we do have 2 Admins for this tournament and they run the tournament all day long. Before we were discussing the disconnect live on stream we have been talking to xlord and Stephano offcamera and i was talking to one of the admins what he thinks and at some point i saw that this situation is however you call it not fair for one of the players and from my memories i had a tournament in mind which was big too where we had 3 Players who could decide if its a regame or not. We would let them vote secretly and get the best possible decision (from my point of view cause these guys have the biggest knowledge about the game)
I asked Stephano/Xlord if this is okay for them and they actually liked the idea. So why should i not do it? In the rules it usually say that the admin has the last word and he can even change the rules spontaneously.
I think i could and should have decided it faster but this was a very bad situation for me cause this is homestorycup and usually all players are nice to each other and i didn t wanna have anyone with bad feelings and put up the best solution. So for this i want to appologize it made it bigger than it should have been.
I know that this was probably abit of a emotional answer by alex but i think and hope that i can talk to you in private and fix this situation.
I also want to mention one thing in alot of leagues when it s not over 100% you decide a regame but if the players agree on a result its over. Stephano said twice to xlord once live in the camera and once off camera that if he wants the win he can take it.
All together is just a shit situation and i m happy for Stephano that he still advanced. I talked to him after the MMA series and at least he told me that i shouldnt be sad or have bad feelings cause now thats what i actually have.
Sorry to all of you if this somehow fucked you up. I will not let this happen again.
Thanks for your time and i hope you can somehow understand my situation.
//Dennis
It was not perfect and i can understand that some people are angry and upset. This won t happen again.
The decision to ask the 3 pros and have them vote in secret wass a good one, and it should've gone through, it's too bad it went messy like this especially when XLord came to defend his position to the 3 people who were already feeling pressured to make a decision ON STREAM. Next time make sure you just pull to commercials or show Looping Louey or something while making the decision and make sure the players can't affect the decision. I'm sure you will do your best to assure this doesn't happen again
Take & HSC fighting, thanks for the awesome tournament so far!
I think you did the right thing to argue. If you are ahead in a competition for money you play to win there is no reason to give your opponent a second chance. As much as I love stephano if you were clearly ahead and you can close the series out you argue your ass off. The refs should have come in and laid the law down and not leave it for discussion with the players in any way whether they wanted a Draw, bo5, or regame. If they give some say to the players who have stake in it you have every right to argue for your win.
On December 22 2012 06:38 Solarsail wrote: Either decision wouldn't have reflected badly on you.
Standing there arguing (and looking like you persuaded the admins to change their decision based on nothing but emotional appeal) was the problem.
This right here.
Too argue against the people making a decision so much to change their mind is what made you look BM. I personally dont think the game was anywhere near over enough to not be a regame, just a messy situation overall and you didnt help it
I understand that you are confused and a bit disappointed in the decision somehow, but however to explain it:
In the first fight between my 2nd and 3rd base I took a similar fight against him (Infestor Roach on my side - and Hydra Roach on his side) and I fungaled <- the left side to fight on the right for a few seconds uncontested by the left side which couldnt move (obviously) and took the fight pretty convincingly.
I was going to do the exact same thing in the fight in front of his natural when the game dropped. I would've fight the left side (just a few hydras and roaches) and fungaled the right side (the main army). I also had 5 roaches at his 4th base (it was gone basically) while my base was up already. So the game was mine and I knew that.
However I understand that there are some discussions about the situatiuation and games were also lost while having this kind of lead - but I played really solid in both games in my opinion.
I am really disappointed that the game had to end like this (connection somehow broke) and I am sad aswell, since now I seem like a bad mannered player.
I am happy to see stephano making it out of the group and I would like to face him again while HSC VI and I appreciate his courage, to agree to the Win as it stands.
I hope you guys enjoy the remaining games and playoffs tomorrow - I will try my best and I hope I wont be "mindfucked" tomorrow.
I also feel sorry for DIMAGA and Snute, to be put in such a situation
thx for reading.
On December 22 2012 07:23 TaKeSeN wrote: Hey this is what i wrote on reddit.
Hello everyone i would like to give some of my own thoughts:
First of all we do have 2 Admins for this tournament and they run the tournament all day long. Before we were discussing the disconnect live on stream we have been talking to xlord and Stephano offcamera and i was talking to one of the admins what he thinks and at some point i saw that this situation is however you call it not fair for one of the players and from my memories i had a tournament in mind which was big too where we had 3 Players who could decide if its a regame or not. We would let them vote secretly and get the best possible decision (from my point of view cause these guys have the biggest knowledge about the game)
I asked Stephano/Xlord if this is okay for them and they actually liked the idea. So why should i not do it? In the rules it usually say that the admin has the last word and he can even change the rules spontaneously.
I think i could and should have decided it faster but this was a very bad situation for me cause this is homestorycup and usually all players are nice to each other and i didn t wanna have anyone with bad feelings and put up the best solution. So for this i want to appologize it made it bigger than it should have been.
I know that this was probably abit of a emotional answer by alex but i think and hope that i can talk to you in private and fix this situation.
I also want to mention one thing in alot of leagues when it s not over 100% you decide a regame but if the players agree on a result its over. Stephano said twice to xlord once live in the camera and once off camera that if he wants the win he can take it.
All together is just a shit situation and i m happy for Stephano that he still advanced. I talked to him after the MMA series and at least he told me that i shouldnt be sad or have bad feelings cause now thats what i actually have.
Sorry to all of you if this somehow fucked you up. I will not let this happen again.
Thanks for your time and i hope you can somehow understand my situation.
//Dennis
It was not perfect and i can understand that some people are angry and upset. This won t happen again.
Don't know if you 2 still read the thread but whatever. XLord, you did nothing wrong, you argued your case perhaps a bit too heated up, but that's no biggie. I understand that you win this game 99 out of 100 times. I am sure that the large majority of the community is not angry about the incident, just a little but vocal minority who likes to bitch,whine and moan about everything. You did nothing wrong and you don't need to explain yourself. GL for the rest of the tourney
Take, I can also understand your reasoning, could have been handled better, but hindsight is always king You shouldn't be upset either, again the large majority of the community loves the stuff you do, they just remain silent because they are content, you shouldn't get upset over some angry nerds who literally bitch at everything from the safety of their armchair. I hope you keep doing awesome stuff for us
HSC is awesome as always so far, hope you can keep the high standard up!
The situation should have never happened. Players should have zero and absolutely zero say / comments on the outcome of a disconnected match. The tournament admins should have the first and final call on the outcome of disconnects whether its right or wrong in the players mind and that should be it.
I very much agree with you XlorD, it was 100 % your win. The after-game situation shouldn't had been shown on stream, but that was pretty much the only mistake that occurred. Both you and Stephano agreed, so that was that.
You really can't blame Xlord or Stephano for this. Any headaches and stupidity caused by this rests on the shoulders of the HSC admins. Regame or otherwise.
On December 22 2012 07:39 MarkCJ wrote: reddit doesn't seem too happy LOL
No offence to reddit users, but when was reddit ever happy? They bitch, whine and moan at every little opportunity, be it emailing sponsors for minor stuff, witchhunting players who said something stupid or denouncing the work others put up for the community.. TBH I do not think that decision makers around the esports scene should care about reddit even one bit, they will whine regardless...
The game was not won, no one is arguing that Xlord wasn't ahead. Admins can clearly see that there is a defender's advantage, upgrade advantage, infestor disadvantage, and a base disadvantage for Stephano. There is no way someone can call this game over for Xlord. TLO had it right: if there is a chance the other player can take it within reasonable means, then there should be a re-game.
Note: Players should not decide anything because they cannot be considered objective parties, blind vote or not.
Additionally, Xlord made a fool of himself unfortunately. Quite unprofessional action by many parties.
On December 22 2012 07:41 MCXD wrote: You really can't blame Xlord or Stephano for this. Any headaches and stupidity caused by this rests on the shoulders of the HSC admins. Regame or otherwise.
you cant blame xlord for going up to the *the 3 judges * and admins and be agressive about it by saying *its fucking shit , it was a free win *??well i think you can.Would you ever see stephano do this ?. i think he should lose the game just for such behavior.Seriously who does that
I was going to do the exact same thing in the fight in front of his natural when the game dropped. I would've fight the left side (just a few hydras and roaches) and fungaled the right side (the main army). I also had 5 roaches at his 4th base (it was gone basically) while my base was up already. So the game was mine and I knew that.
Now you say that, but you can't expect ppl trust u. Give you a win assuming you dont make mistakes makes no sense. Sometimes we have seen even top koreans suiciding an entire army engaging in a bad position...everyone can make game-changing mistakes.
On December 22 2012 07:39 MarkCJ wrote: reddit doesn't seem too happy LOL
No offence to reddit users, but when was reddit ever happy? They bitch, whine and moan at every little opportunity, be it emailing sponsors for minor stuff, witchhunting players who said something stupid or denouncing the work others put up for the community.. TBH I do not think that decision makers around the esports scene should care about reddit even one bit, they will whine regardless...
I'm sorry but I have no idea how to navigate reddit, where are you seeing this? When I type in starcraft or starcraft 2 in the search the posts are months old.
For example in other sports we have seen crazy comebacks. A 5-0 lead in soccer or ice hockey is considered a "easy win", but you never know until it's done. Or look at the Rocky movies. He gets knocked down several times, and still wins. There is nothing as a free win, or easy win. Therefor it should be a regame.
And only looking from your point of view, and arguing from that point of view makes you bad mannered. There's no way to deny that. Being "competetive" is an expanation for bad manner, but never an excuse. But eventually you'll grow up and understand that sport's important, but never as important as fellow human beings. Unfortunatly in our society we've so many childish humans.
On December 22 2012 07:39 MarkCJ wrote: reddit doesn't seem too happy LOL
No offence to reddit users, but when was reddit ever happy? They bitch, whine and moan at every little opportunity, be it emailing sponsors for minor stuff, witchhunting players who said something stupid or denouncing the work others put up for the community.. TBH I do not think that decision makers around the esports scene should care about reddit even one bit, they will whine regardless...
I was going to do the exact same thing in the fight in front of his natural when the game dropped. I would've fight the left side (just a few hydras and roaches) and fungaled the right side (the main army). I also had 5 roaches at his 4th base (it was gone basically) while my base was up already. So the game was mine and I knew that.
Now you say that, but you can't expect ppl trust u. Give you a win assuming you dont make mistakes makes no sense. Sometimes we have seen even top koreans suiciding an entire army engaging in a bad position...everyone can make game-changing mistakes.
So the only wise thing to do is a rematch.
You don't make assumptions, you look at how the game has gone. Stephano had a chance of winning the game earlier with his 2/2 roach/hydra timing, but because of Xlords micro he was able to hold it well and take a significant lead. So, based on what has actually happened I would argue that it would be more likely that stephano were to mismicro or make a mistake than xlord.
I wonder what you said to stephano after he said "congratz" to you. After all he was the one acting with a good attitude during all of it. Not trying to influence the admins decision...
On December 22 2012 07:49 Boosebus wrote: The game was far from over. Not a free win.
For example in other sports we have seen crazy comebacks. A 5-0 lead in soccer or ice hockey is considered a "easy win", but you never know until it's done. Or look at the Rocky movies. He gets knocked down several times, and still wins. There is nothing as a free win, or easy win. Therefor it should be a regame.
And only looking from your point of view, and arguing from that point of view makes you bad mannered. There's no way to deny that. Being "competetive" is an expanation for bad manner, but never an excuse. But eventually you'll grow up and understand that sport's important, but never as important as fellow human beings. Unfortunatly in our society we've so many childish humans.
Sorry but your arguments are really really bad. I agree that XLord acted childish but you can't really compare a scripted movie to anything happening in real life.
It's not about wheter you had the game won or not. (Altough i personally do not feel like it was a freewin, however you played great and had a big lead) The drama is about the way you bitched and complained on stream, while others, snute comes to mind, were trying to find a reasonable solution for this messed up situation. Even IF the game was 100% over, why did you have to force yourself on the discussion. I know it's a serious tournament and you want to win the group. But still beeing 2-0 up in a Bo5 is pretty darn good.
When you look at Parting/MKP or MKP/Violet, those games were even more over imo, and both times they did a regame, which is imo the fairest solution. But a 2-0 lead in a bo5 would have been good as well.
On December 22 2012 07:39 MarkCJ wrote: reddit doesn't seem too happy LOL
No offence to reddit users, but when was reddit ever happy? They bitch, whine and moan at every little opportunity, be it emailing sponsors for minor stuff, witchhunting players who said something stupid or denouncing the work others put up for the community.. TBH I do not think that decision makers around the esports scene should care about reddit even one bit, they will whine regardless...
I'm sorry but I have no idea how to navigate reddit, where are you seeing this? When I type in starcraft or starcraft 2 in the search the posts are months old.
Here a little explanation link on how to navigate reddit:
For some instances of the witchhunting/pitchforking players you could search for Destiny or Stephano related stuff. All minor issues which get completely blown out of proportion with emailing sponsors and shit..
unfortunate event, I guess the regame was the least worst decision, and i feel you let no choice to the admins, and to stephano,
but it was the organisator/admins mistake to be too open to public discussion, and to be unclear on what should be a regame and what should not, (yes, ungrateful job and tough call, especially late, after some beers, among friends, out of the blue...) Lesson at least partially learn I'm sure !!
I have just registered a user in TL just to reply to this (been a silent observer for a LONG time).
Xlord, while I also believe you deserved the win, and must admit you played in a very solid, impressive fashion, I have a problem with your behavior in this fiasco.
Obviously the blame should fall mostly on HSC for letting this get out of hand. They should NOT have put this "debate" on air. They should NOT have applied pressure to make a decision in a hurry. They should NOT have picked refs arbitrarily - some of whom did not even want to partake in this (Dima for example). They definitely SHOULD have had clear air tight rules for such an event, and should have followed those to the letter.
With all that said, and all the blame put in the proper place, I still think you acted appallingly and childishly. You were selfish and inconsiderate of your fans/viewers and in complete disregard of your very well mannered and extremely skillful opponent - who btw was in the exact same nerve wrecking position you were in. While this whole thing was handled badly by HSC admins, you had no right to give your opinion on possible solutions not to even mention the right to "agree" or "disagree" to those. you didn't even have a right to come forward and explain your position/opinion. You tried to influence the decision making process (as flawed as it was in the first place) with your own personal agenda, while your opponent stood in the back and awaited patiently for the decision to be made knowing very well he should have no say in the matter. your behavior was unsportsmanlike, and downright rude. And to top it all off, you called Stephano BM for getting frustrated at your rude behavior and ending the whole fiasco by just giving you the win?
So to sum up my opinion on things: 1. you deserved the win. 2. HSC fucked up. REALLY fucked up. 3. you acted like a dick. no offence.
I'm pretty sure we can all agree by now that it was the admins' fault for not enforcing the rules in the first place. Going to the casters (who are players who are still in the tournament, I might say) to ask them to decide is....not a good idea at all.
That said, I'm sure XlorD could have handled that way better, there are ways and ways to argue and that was not a good one.
He's been playing pretty well, so it's a shame he got all that crap thrown at him, but he should take this as an experience and learn to manner up, or he might lose fans pretty fast.
Tournaments should have a rule set and admins to enforce it, the only time a player should get involved is when they want to give a win to there opponent for being so far ahead imo.
On December 22 2012 08:02 Ydriel wrote: I'm pretty sure we can all agree by now that it was the admins' fault for not enforcing the rules in the first place. Going to the casters (who are players who are still in the tournament, I might say) to ask them to decide is....not a good idea at all.
That said, I'm sure XlorD could have handled that way better, there are ways and ways to argue and that was not a good one.
He's been playing pretty well, so it's a shame he got all that crap thrown at him, but he should take this as an experience and learn to manner up, or he might lose fans pretty fast.
I still think it was a good idea to ask 3 pro players about their decision on the game as they obviously understand it much better, however it should have all happened off stream and so that nobody else besides the admins could hear it because obviously the players felt pressured by the situation and did not want to actually say their opinion.
Wait, is this another case of "player(s) deciding out decision/decide on their own?" If so, can we please have admins that take control, it's their job when the tournament is going and not the players...
On December 22 2012 08:02 amitbl wrote: I have just registered a user in TL just to reply to this (been a silent observer for a LONG time).
Xlord, while I also believe you deserved the win, and must admit you played in a very solid, impressive fashion, I have a problem with your behavior in this fiasco.
Obviously the blame should fall mostly on HSC for letting this get out of hand. They should NOT have put this "debate" on air. They should NOT have applied pressure to make a decision in a hurry. They should NOT have picked refs arbitrarily - some of whom did not even want to partake in this (Dima for example). They definitely SHOULD have had clear air tight rules for such an event, and should have followed those to the letter.
With all that said, and all the blame put in the proper place, I still think you acted appallingly and childishly. You were selfish and inconsiderate of your fans/viewers and in complete disregard of your very well mannered and extremely skillful opponent - who btw was in the exact same nerve wrecking position you were in. While this whole thing was handled badly by HSC admins, you had no right to give your opinion on possible solutions not to even mention the right to "agree" or "disagree" to those. you didn't even have a right to come forward and explain your position/opinion. You tried to influence the decision making process (as flawed as it was in the first place) with your own personal agenda, while your opponent stood in the back and awaited patiently for the decision to be made knowing very well he should have no say in the matter. your behavior was unsportsmanlike, and downright rude. And to top it all off, you called Stephano BM for getting frustrated at your rude behavior and ending the whole fiasco by just giving you the win?
So to sum up my opinion on things: 1. you deserved the win. 2. HSC fucked up. REALLY fucked up. 3. you acted like a dick. no offence.
Couldn't have said it better, people don't think your BM because you received the win, it's because the way you acted was outright disgusting, your opponent didn't say anything, while you were throwing words like "free win" to the poor players that had been put in that position.
On December 22 2012 08:02 amitbl wrote: I have just registered a user in TL just to reply to this (been a silent observer for a LONG time).
Xlord, while I also believe you deserved the win, and must admit you played in a very solid, impressive fashion, I have a problem with your behavior in this fiasco.
Obviously the blame should fall mostly on HSC for letting this get out of hand. They should NOT have put this "debate" on air. They should NOT have applied pressure to make a decision in a hurry. They should NOT have picked refs arbitrarily - some of whom did not even want to partake in this (Dima for example). They definitely SHOULD have had clear air tight rules for such an event, and should have followed those to the letter.
With all that said, and all the blame put in the proper place, I still think you acted appallingly and childishly. You were selfish and inconsiderate of your fans/viewers and in complete disregard of your very well mannered and extremely skillful opponent - who btw was in the exact same nerve wrecking position you were in. While this whole thing was handled badly by HSC admins, you had no right to give your opinion on possible solutions not to even mention the right to "agree" or "disagree" to those. you didn't even have a right to come forward and explain your position/opinion. You tried to influence the decision making process (as flawed as it was in the first place) with your own personal agenda, while your opponent stood in the back and awaited patiently for the decision to be made knowing very well he should have no say in the matter. your behavior was unsportsmanlike, and downright rude. And to top it all off, you called Stephano BM for getting frustrated at your rude behavior and ending the whole fiasco by just giving you the win?
So to sum up my opinion on things: 1. you deserved the win. 2. HSC fucked up. REALLY fucked up. 3. you acted like a dick. no offence.
Couldn't put it in better words. Btw there is a really good response from Take - and I'm sure this kind of situation won't happen again.
On December 22 2012 08:17 Zenbrez wrote: He made his TL account almost 2 years ago and this is his only post :O
Tells us how invested he is in this matter!
But honestly I don't think you can argue the game shouldn't have been regamed, because especially on metropolis, if Stephano holds the next attack, gets infestors and camps, he can get to 5 bases and then anything can happen, it has happened soooo many times in the past where the game drags out and it ends up even.
The most extreme example I can think of recently was DRG vs RorO in GSL Code A in season 4.
RorO got behind in each game massively in bases, supply and tech, except upgrades he was ahead.
He played well, dragging the game out and just kept picking better fights and ended up winning both games, game 1 he wasn't as far behind, there was also a basetrade which just had everything mixed up, second game DRG was on 3 bases with muta going into infestors, RorO had 2 bases and infestors, massively behind in supply, still won in a 30 minute game.
You ask DRG if the disconnect happened when DRG was at the peak of his lead if he think he would lose? He would say no way, he was ahead in every way except upgrades, but he lost in the end.
It's an awful situation but the best thing is to regame, and if the "winning" player argues against it then yeah.. nobody will like him.
Another time was IPL5 Scarlett vs DRG (one of the matches) Scarlett got behind and just made better decisions later in the game (was also on metropolis) and won.
The last time this happened in HSC was MKP vs viOLet where MKP had an even bigger lead than XlorD had, but MKP just decided to call a regame after that, everyone loved MKP for that and started spamming MannerKingPrime, MKP won the regame.
On December 22 2012 08:02 amitbl wrote: I have just registered a user in TL just to reply to this (been a silent observer for a LONG time).
Xlord, while I also believe you deserved the win, and must admit you played in a very solid, impressive fashion, I have a problem with your behavior in this fiasco.
Obviously the blame should fall mostly on HSC for letting this get out of hand. They should NOT have put this "debate" on air. They should NOT have applied pressure to make a decision in a hurry. They should NOT have picked refs arbitrarily - some of whom did not even want to partake in this (Dima for example). They definitely SHOULD have had clear air tight rules for such an event, and should have followed those to the letter.
With all that said, and all the blame put in the proper place, I still think you acted appallingly and childishly. You were selfish and inconsiderate of your fans/viewers and in complete disregard of your very well mannered and extremely skillful opponent - who btw was in the exact same nerve wrecking position you were in. While this whole thing was handled badly by HSC admins, you had no right to give your opinion on possible solutions not to even mention the right to "agree" or "disagree" to those. you didn't even have a right to come forward and explain your position/opinion. You tried to influence the decision making process (as flawed as it was in the first place) with your own personal agenda, while your opponent stood in the back and awaited patiently for the decision to be made knowing very well he should have no say in the matter. your behavior was unsportsmanlike, and downright rude. And to top it all off, you called Stephano BM for getting frustrated at your rude behavior and ending the whole fiasco by just giving you the win?
So to sum up my opinion on things: 1. you deserved the win. 2. HSC fucked up. REALLY fucked up. 3. you acted like a dick. no offence.
Couldn't put it in better words. Btw there is a really good response from Take - and I'm sure this kind of situation won't happen again.
Xlord, people aren't denying you didn't have a lead. Most people just think you acted like a child and I agree. You won the match, yet Stephano comes out of it looking 100x better.
Even if you had %99 win chance(which was not even close), calling a game of similar supplies a "freewin" was such a selfish move. You never know what could've happened and it could've went very well the opposite of your freewin plan. The reason you made this thread is because you know your fault and wanted to somewhat justify your nonsense. Stay away from that kind of deception cause it makes you look even worse. And before making statements like "bye bye stephano" consider to learn a thing or two from stephano about fairplay and manner.
On December 22 2012 06:35 Kenny_oro wrote: You're not seen as bad mannered for playing a good game. The disconnect wasn't your fault.
But what's the pont of arguing with the casters which already were forced in the uncomfortable situation to make a decission.
You should've just leaned back to wait for the decission instead of arguing with TLO on stream like a madman.
If you're that confident in your skill - why not just take the 20 and extend it to the BO5?
Nobody argued about your lead in that game - But a lead doesn't mean freewin. You should know that.
Pretty much agree with this, arguing with those in a already awkward scenario helps no one, and if you were so sure you could win taking the win, making it 2-0 and a Bo5 is by far the most even choice. This type of scenarios do suck, so I feel it mostly about making the most even scenario possible.
There is no justification for refusing the 2-0 lead in a bo5. That's better treatment than other people in the exact same tournament (MKP-Violet). Someone's taking this tournament (which is for fun, not a premier event) a little too seriously..
It is also his true breakout tournament in SC2, too bad he acted the way he did, everybody will remember him by that and not his great performance so far.
On December 22 2012 08:35 Gropah wrote: Not sure if real XlorD as he only has one post...
Why would it not be XlorD? Not all pros post into TL at all.
On December 22 2012 08:33 zefreak wrote: There is no justification for refusing the 2-0 lead in a bo5. That's better treatment than other people in the exact same tournament (MKP-Violet). Someone's taking this tournament (which is for fun, not a premier event) a little too seriously..
Same thoughts, couldn't believe that this was just a plain win, after beeing absent for a few minutes of the stream.
I dont think people are reacting to this because that u had or didnt have the win, It's the way you reacted to the casters peopler are reacting to.. It doesn't make you BM but geeh, 2 - 0 in a BO5 .. Why not accept that and look like a "hero"?
On December 22 2012 08:39 jinorazi wrote: shouldnt the disconnect blame go to.....
blizzard?
Yes, but most other players would have acted differently, and have when put in that situation. People don't like rooting for people who throw fits in public
On December 22 2012 08:39 Zyrhon wrote: I dont think people are reacting to this because that u had or didnt have the win, It's the way you reacted to the casters peopler are reacting to.. It doesn't make you BM but geeh, 2 - 0 in a BO5 .. Why not accept that and look like a "hero"?
It absolutely makes it look like BM. He was on camera screaming like a child and refusing any sort of middle ground solution. We've seen comebacks in games before, why not in this one? Anything can happen.
Xlord, you were just acting like a little child, crying for a free win. We've seen many comebacks in even more "100% win situations", and you were just standing there and begging to get a defwin. Any mannered playered would have agreed on a rematch. Look at GSTL Finals between StarTale and Prime - you never can state a winner until someone gg's out. You've lost a lot of respect in my eyes in that situation. You should've prooen that you're a better player by winning in a rematch, not acting like an irritating kid just so Stephano gives you a win, because he can behave much more mature than you and he wouldn't argue with you because it would be like playing chess with a pigeon. Even if you win, the pigeon would fall the figures, shit on the board and act like he won. Someone has to teach you about honour and good behaviour, before you try to call yourself a pro-gamer, which you will never become if you keep acting like a 12 year old girl. Man up already.
On December 22 2012 08:39 jinorazi wrote: shouldnt the disconnect blame go to.....
blizzard?
That is what is really bothering me, it is like people have forgotten that this shit really cant happen in the other big esport titles(Lan, resume from replay etc), it is just because Blizzard is hamstringing the esports scene with their DRM and piss poor UI this even happened.
I guess people gave up blaming Blizzard after the first big incidents of this happening since apparently they cant solve it in a timely manner.
On December 22 2012 08:39 jinorazi wrote: shouldnt the disconnect blame go to.....
blizzard?
That is what is really bothering me, it is like people have forgotten that this shit really cant happen in the other big esport titles(Lan, resume from replay etc), it is just because Blizzard is hamstringing the esports scene with their DRM and piss poor UI this even happened.
I guess people gave up blaming Blizzard after the first big incidents of this happening since apparently they cant solve it in a timely manner.
Been said previously on this page, it's not the disconnect that is causing the majority of the drama, it's XlorD's behavior following the disconnect, disconnects has happened before so often that there is ways you deal with it now.
On December 22 2012 08:39 jinorazi wrote: shouldnt the disconnect blame go to.....
blizzard?
That is what is really bothering me, it is like people have forgotten that this shit really cant happen in the other big esport titles(Lan, resume from replay etc), it is just because Blizzard is hamstringing the esports scene with their DRM and piss poor UI this even happened.
I guess people gave up blaming Blizzard after the first big incidents of this happening since apparently they cant solve it in a timely manner.
Been said previously on this page, it's not the disconnect that is causing the majority of the drama, it's XlorD's behavior following the disconnect, disconnects has happened before so often that there is ways you deal with it now.
Yes, and that is stupid, the focus should not be on XlorD at all, even though I think what he did was normal - Athletes in other sports constantly challange the refs calls and if the tournament is run properly the players would have no say in it. The fact that people are on XlorDs back for wanting & pushing for the best outcome for him is pretty silly.
On December 22 2012 07:39 MarkCJ wrote: reddit doesn't seem too happy LOL
No offence to reddit users, but when was reddit ever happy? They bitch, whine and moan at every little opportunity, be it emailing sponsors for minor stuff, witchhunting players who said something stupid or denouncing the work others put up for the community.. TBH I do not think that decision makers around the esports scene should care about reddit even one bit, they will whine regardless...
To be completely honest, there's very little difference between Reddit and the TL forums. Both are kneejerk, witch-hunting, bandwagoning communities.
On December 22 2012 08:39 jinorazi wrote: shouldnt the disconnect blame go to.....
blizzard?
That is what is really bothering me, it is like people have forgotten that this shit really cant happen in the other big esport titles(Lan, resume from replay etc), it is just because Blizzard is hamstringing the esports scene with their DRM and piss poor UI this even happened.
I guess people gave up blaming Blizzard after the first big incidents of this happening since apparently they cant solve it in a timely manner.
Been said previously on this page, it's not the disconnect that is causing the majority of the drama, it's XlorD's behavior following the disconnect, disconnects has happened before so often that there is ways you deal with it now.
There is actually 0 way of dealing with a disconnect. Since you can't wait it out forever and there's no resuming from a particular point. You either hand out a win or loss or you rematch. None of those three are going to play the game in the exact same way and the players will not have the exact same thoughts going through the game. Even rematching the game can play out completely differently. All blame should go to blizzard.
On December 22 2012 08:39 jinorazi wrote: shouldnt the disconnect blame go to.....
blizzard?
That is what is really bothering me, it is like people have forgotten that this shit really cant happen in the other big esport titles(Lan, resume from replay etc), it is just because Blizzard is hamstringing the esports scene with their DRM and piss poor UI this even happened.
I guess people gave up blaming Blizzard after the first big incidents of this happening since apparently they cant solve it in a timely manner.
Been said previously on this page, it's not the disconnect that is causing the majority of the drama, it's XlorD's behavior following the disconnect, disconnects has happened before so often that there is ways you deal with it now.
Yes, and that is stupid, the focus should not be on XlorD at all, even though I think what he did was normal - Athletes in other sports constantly challange the refs calls and if the tournament is run properly the players would have no say in it.
Athletes in other sports acting unprofessionally is not a good reason to do so as well.
The usual ruling in an SC2 tournament where a DC occurs, is that incase it is not obvious to everyone that one player would win.. its a rematch.
The default result of a disconnect is a remake, and the exception is to give the win to a player. This seems like the other way around. Everyone is discussing this from the standpoint that giving the default is giving the win to the leading player and remaking is the exception.
Very cool and muture of Stephano to stop the discussion and just going to the next game. A perfect example of a player who is confident in himself, and he just want to play the game. XlorD however seem like he is afraid of playing agianst Stephano and just wanted a win.
I dont think the lead was big enough for them to decide for a remake, anyho.. done is done. Lets move on and hope that Alexander Garfield puts his dick back in his pants before this grows out of proportions.
On December 22 2012 07:39 MarkCJ wrote: reddit doesn't seem too happy LOL
No offence to reddit users, but when was reddit ever happy? They bitch, whine and moan at every little opportunity, be it emailing sponsors for minor stuff, witchhunting players who said something stupid or denouncing the work others put up for the community.. TBH I do not think that decision makers around the esports scene should care about reddit even one bit, they will whine regardless...
To be completely honest, there's very little difference between Reddit and the TL forums. Both are kneejerk, witch-hunting, bandwagoning communities.
Only diffrence here is that stupid memes get banned rather than upvoted to the top.
On December 22 2012 08:39 jinorazi wrote: shouldnt the disconnect blame go to.....
blizzard?
That is what is really bothering me, it is like people have forgotten that this shit really cant happen in the other big esport titles(Lan, resume from replay etc), it is just because Blizzard is hamstringing the esports scene with their DRM and piss poor UI this even happened.
I guess people gave up blaming Blizzard after the first big incidents of this happening since apparently they cant solve it in a timely manner.
Been said previously on this page, it's not the disconnect that is causing the majority of the drama, it's XlorD's behavior following the disconnect, disconnects has happened before so often that there is ways you deal with it now.
Yes, and that is stupid, the focus should not be on XlorD at all, even though I think what he did was normal - Athletes in other sports constantly challange the refs calls and if the tournament is run properly the players would have no say in it.
Athletes in other sports acting unprofessionally is not a good reason to do so as well.
Uh, it is their job to act just like that, so they are actually acting professionally.
On December 22 2012 08:39 jinorazi wrote: shouldnt the disconnect blame go to.....
blizzard?
I say admins tbh. DC's happen, sure that is Blizzards fault but the players shouldn't ever have a say in it ever. During a situation like this the admins need to get together and discuss AWAY FROM THE PLAYERS. This whole thread wouldn't have existed if they did their job.
Xlord is ok...if you are ahead and the game somehow get disconnected..you should get the win.. they are professionals..why should they accept a draw when they are ahead..Every single match is important..
On December 22 2012 08:39 jinorazi wrote: shouldnt the disconnect blame go to.....
blizzard?
I say admins tbh. DC's happen, sure that is Blizzards fault but the players shouldn't ever have a say in it ever. During a situation like this the admins need to get together and discuss AWAY FROM THE PLAYERS. This whole thread wouldn't have existed if they did their job.
Resume play from replay is possible in other big esports titles, and it is very possible to do in sc2(Hell, 3rd party managed to make it for sc2). There really is no reason why it is not in sc2. The situation was poorly handled by the tournament but it should not even have been an issue in the first place.
On December 22 2012 08:35 Gropah wrote: Not sure if real XlorD as he only has one post...
Why would it not be XlorD? Not all pros post into TL at all.
And why would it be XlorD? Enough trolls create accounts to make posts like this.
We can do this yes-no thing all night or can just agree that it is indeed XlorD simply because this thread is still open, the staff would've reacted already if this was a troll thread as they like to keep an eye out on threads like these.
It's obvious that you felt like you'd win this game (you obviously were ahead) but it's just as obvious that Stephano didn't feel like he had already lost the game at this point. 60-40, 80-20 it doesn't matter. The professional decision would have been a regame, a conciliatory solution would have been the 2-0 into bo5. All in all I'm pretty sure most people objected less to the decision itself and more to the way you presented yourself. In the end you won the series (the chances of you winning the bo5 with a 2-0 lead would been ridiculously huge anyway) but lost the opportunity to show sportsmanship and character. Your loss imo.
This game was won like 100%. You would´ve to fuck up the engagement so badly if you have 6 freakin infestors in a choke fight situation. Even if you just camp outside you´d get ahead with time. So the pressusre was on Stephano AND time was against him. So either Stephano takes the fight and propably loses because 6 fungals do more damaga than the difference in armysupply, espacially taking into consideration the stun effect, which lets you "freeze" a good fighting position. I really can´t see a progamer losing in such an advantageous and closing situation.
On December 22 2012 08:53 NightElf wrote: Xlord is ok...if you are ahead and the game somehow get disconnected..you should get the win.. they are professionals..why should they accept a draw when they are ahead..Every single match is important..
Lots of people thought Stephano still had a chance to come back. When you see the supplies, upgrades and take the huge map into consideration - IF stephano somehow defended it the game could have changed dramatically (like in MC vs Grubby, MC was ahead, casters said that MC was ahead, MC was ahead in supplies - yet Grubby CRUSHED MC's army). Still I think Xlord would have won that game but the game was not over.
It's ok to not accept the draw. Acting like a stupid kid trying to convince everybody it was a free-win is not ok.
I think as we had snute and TLO casting this, they might have come up with a simpel exemple
they had a game recently where snute ended up having 200/200 and TLO only had 100 supply, he wasnt mining anymore almsot and had no bank while snute was still mining and had a bank (game on metropolis, don't remember the tournament, IPL mb?)
Well, TLO ALMOST WON IT, 100 vs 200 supplay with a much worse deficit
I'm glad someone remembered this. MKP gave violet a rematch in a game he was actually ahead I think. If my memory is correct, Dimaga was actually looking at the replay of that game to help decide the decision. Then MKP just said regame. MKP ended up winning that regame at least, but lost the series.
Therefore, this isn't the first time something like this has happened at home story and players decided on the outcome. There was no big thread or reddit thread made when mkp gave a regame. However, since it was stephano it gets blown up huge. Yes, the admins should have made the decision, but I don't blame xlord for wanting the win.
Could someone please provide a link or at least where I can find the VOD containing this controversy? I'd like to see it myself before making a judgment and I don't see a link in this thread or on Reddit.
Xlord, you should have given the regame. That is the expected etiquette in this situation. What you did was pressure Stephano into conceding the game. Congrats on taking one map from Stephano. That was well done at least. Acts of sportsmanship are long remembered in the community, as are acts of unsportsmanship. I am disappointed in what I saw today. When a player is trying to make a name for themselves they have to be careful they don't get a reputation that makes them unpopular.
Bullshit explanation, easy to say what you could have done. It the heat of the moment, it's something different, especially agains stephano. We have seen games were people were more behind and came back.
On December 22 2012 09:26 revel8 wrote: Xlord, you should have given the regame. That is the expected etiquette in this situation. What you did was pressure Stephano into conceding the game. Congrats on taking one map from Stephano. That was well done at least. Acts of sportsmanship are long remembered in the community, as are acts of unsportsmanship. I am disappointed in what I saw today. When a player is trying to make a name for themselves they have to be careful they don't get a reputation that makes them unpopular.
As a citizen of the United Kingdom, have you ever seen Manchester United argue against a red card given by a referee for the opposing team?
Got nothing to do with sportsmanship. There's 10 grand on the line. I'd argue the toss for that as well. No matter how "friendly" and "fun" the event may be, if being all sportsmanlike and giving up a won game because of a disconnect is going to potentially cost you 10k then don't do it man.
Oh and as for "fans", no offence but Idra is about as sportsmanlike and as good mannered as an unflushed turd in the Olympic village but still somehow maintains a trillion salivating nerds who all drape on his every word. Don't think Xlord has much to worry about.
xlord, please don't listen to all the haters/stephano fanboys. If people decided that you won the match then by all means take the win. It is a competition and it would be unfair if a re-game was decided when you had such a definitive lead. Remember that you can't please everyone on the internet so try to stay on top of your game and not be affected by such drama for tomorrow.
As for people who's calling this a free win-- Please watch the game again, xlord was winning so stop being bias.
i was really a fan of your play and wanted you to beat stephano but after you acting like a child and BMing take and swearing "what the fuck" to him i hope you get 3-0ed next round
On December 22 2012 09:37 Morrisson wrote: Bullshit explanation, easy to say what you could have done. It the heat of the moment, it's something different, especially agains stephano. We have seen games were people were more behind and came back.
yes but a judgement call has to be made if the comeback chance is approaching zero.. i mean.. a lot of us remember the gsl 5base vs 1base zvp game where the ladder ended up winning..
Idra is about as sportsmanlike and as good mannered as an unflushed turd in the Olympic village
It's not the same thing. Idra is usually bad mannered, yeah, but he doesn't benefit from it. Xlord was arguing with the judges trying to convince them to give him the win, when he should have just stayed back and accepted their decision, like Stephano was doing. No matter the final result, arguing with the judges to convince them to favor you is an awful attitude (especially if you're exaggerating your advantage; it wasn't a "free win", even though he was favored).
The judges should have just disscused it privately, but still, Xlord looked like a douchebag.
On December 22 2012 09:37 Morrisson wrote: Bullshit explanation, easy to say what you could have done. It the heat of the moment, it's something different, especially agains stephano. We have seen games were people were more behind and came back.
yes but a judgement call has to be made if the comeback chance is approaching zero.. i mean.. a lot of us remember the gsl 5base vs 1base zvp game where the ladder ended up winning..
If he had half the balls and character of MKP he wouldn't have cried so hard for a free win, thats all that matters to 99% of the people complaining.
Oh and as for "fans", no offence but Idra is about as sportsmanlike and as good mannered as an unflushed turd in the Olympic village but still somehow maintains a trillion salivating nerds who all drape on his every word. Don't think Xlord has much to worry about.
You think that Idra collects fans by being BM? The guy is an artist in manipulating the emotions of SC2 watchers. If he didnt exist, we would have to invent this virtuoso of emotional roller coasters.
The real takeaway here is that no matter how 'friendly' everyone is at a tournament, they need to have an official referee who is in an entirely different building spectating and who can sit there and decide without having any pressure from the players.
On December 22 2012 09:26 revel8 wrote: Xlord, you should have given the regame. That is the expected etiquette in this situation. What you did was pressure Stephano into conceding the game. Congrats on taking one map from Stephano. That was well done at least. Acts of sportsmanship are long remembered in the community, as are acts of unsportsmanship. I am disappointed in what I saw today. When a player is trying to make a name for themselves they have to be careful they don't get a reputation that makes them unpopular.
As a citizen of the United Kingdom, have you ever seen Manchester United argue against a red card given by a referee for the opposing team?
Got nothing to do with sportsmanship. There's 10 grand on the line. I'd argue the toss for that as well. No matter how "friendly" and "fun" the event may be, if being all sportsmanlike and giving up a won game because of a disconnect is going to potentially cost you 10k then don't do it man.
Oh and as for "fans", no offence but Idra is about as sportsmanlike and as good mannered as an unflushed turd in the Olympic village but still somehow maintains a trillion salivating nerds who all drape on his every word. Don't think Xlord has much to worry about.
The point is Xlord had NOT won the game. It was in dispute. This was clear because the admins and pro-gamers could not agree that the game was won, therefore it is well established that a regame is the only option. It sucks for the player with an advantage but that is how it is.
I have stated my opinion. I don't actually care whether you share it or not.
so much hate. Maybe u should judge first yourself before you judge about other ppl. I think everything is fine. They talked to each other and found a solution. Of course there is no perfect solution but I would understand if it would be a regame or a extended bo5 or a freewin. It is something which should not decided by us. So please stop acting like a god and try to judge every shit .... I am really mad about the chat that some people wishes cancer and so on because of that. Seriously some ppl need to grow up.
On December 22 2012 09:56 Forgottenfrog wrote: xlord, please don't listen to all the haters/stephano fanboys. If people decided that you won the match then by all means take the win. It is a competition and it would be unfair if a re-game was decided when you had such a definitive lead. Remember that you can't please everyone on the internet so try to stay on top of your game and not be affected by such drama for tomorrow.
As for people who's calling this a free win-- Please watch the game again, xlord was winning so stop being bias.
There were no "people" who decided that he won the match, people argued that he didnt but he said he would have won it easily. Then Stephano (his opponent) said "Just give him the fucking win then so we can go on to the next match".
I could almost have guessed where you are from by just reading your comment, please get a clue before you decide what side you are on.
None of yot should've been put in this situation, but since you were it was only right to defend your win since you had the game 90% won. Respect to you and Stephano alike!
In the first fight between my 2nd and 3rd base I took a similar fight against him (Infestor Roach on my side - and Hydra Roach on his side) and I fungaled <- the left side to fight on the right for a few seconds uncontested by the left side which couldnt move (obviously) and took the fight pretty convincingly.
I was going to do the exact same thing in the fight in front of his natural when the game dropped. I would've fight the left side (just a few hydras and roaches) and fungaled the right side (the main army). I also had 5 roaches at his 4th base (it was gone basically) while my base was up already. So the game was mine and I knew that.
What you thought was going to happen is irrelevant. People do not care about what you thought was going to happen. They care about what Did happen. What Did happen was a disconnect before a large engagement occurred. Crying about it and demanding a disconnect be counted as a win is pretty childish. Why not state your opinion to the admins, and then shut your mouth and be mature about the situation like stephano?
Pfft, you don't hate on the player in those situations you hate on the admins ! People that go after the players are just drama queens. Would have probably ended in a regame anyway if Stephano wouldn't have taken the loss.
hokay so Im NOT gonna make an opinion on what should or should not have happened. THATs all in the past. what i will say is: 1) it was an incredibly good mannered thing for stephano to agree to giving XlorD the win, while he could have sat there and argued it (im betting 999 out of 1000 ppl would argue it) it took lots of courage
2) it was not good for the stream to be live during the discussions BUT it's not XlorD's fault they were live, nor is it bad mannered that he argued for the win(once again im betting 999 out of 1000 ppl would argue it^^^ ), nor is it his fault that the admins/tourney organizers were just flabbergasted about what to do (and seemingly scared to make a decision so they forced it onto 3 players which should never EVER EVER have happened)
3)coming here and explaining his thoughts and feelings about the whole thing took a ton of courage also and shows that XlorD really does have good sportsmanship
The interesting thing actually is how often disconnects and pc shutdowns happen to Stephano in live Tournaments. Especially when he's in a disadvantagous position. he also likes to play with bare feet or socks. There might be a connection.........
Do you remember his behavior in the game vs BabyK. Delaying the games by eating/BEING ON THE PHONE (WTF???). In general I'd be pretty reluctant to decide anything in Stephano's favor.
Maybe Stephano would have had to drop the game anyway because he BMed XLord in the first place. What's that even supposed to mean "I have to admit you played amazingly well last game"?
Gamewise though it was still far from over. Stephano had a SLIGHT supply disadvantage which is nothing at this point in ZvZ. In the series vs Goswser in the Numerical M-House cup Stephano dropped to 130 to 190 supply after a 200 v 200 fight and yet was still able to take the game convincingly.
What could be done as a form of compensation now would be to give Stephano the option to choose whether he wants to play against Xlords opponent (Bratok) in the next round or stick with his future match (MarineKing).
On December 22 2012 10:20 Ryuhou)aS( wrote: 2) it was not good for the stream to be live during the discussions BUT it's not XlorD's fault they were live, nor is it bad mannered that he argued for the win(once again im betting 999 out of 1000 ppl would argue it^^^ ), nor is it his fault that the admins/tourney organizers were just flabbergasted about what to do (and seemingly scared to make a decision so they forced it onto 3 players which should never EVER EVER have happened)
This was actually one of the most entertaining things to happen in any tournament ever so far.
If a player used that kind of tone and speech with an official in any real league his ass would be kicked out instantly. It's part of why still think esports is a joke. In the NBA if you get uppity with a ref you get tossed out and if you still refuse to leave the court you get a suspension most likely. It's harder for admins to do their jobs when people try to fuck with them. At the same time admins need to make a decision and tell players to deal with it and don't show up to the tournament next time if you're that upset.
On December 22 2012 10:21 NeutralDepot wrote: The interesting thing actually is how often disconnects and pc shutdowns happen to Stephano in live Tournaments. Especially when he's in a disadvantagous position. he also likes to play with bare feet or socks. There might be a connection.........
Do you remember his behavior in the game vs BabyK. Delaying the games by eating/BEING ON THE PHONE (WTF???). In generally I'd be pretty reluctant to decide anything in Stephano's favor.
He was on the phone because there was a problem with his computer which needed addressing, they could not play until it got fixed. Next you'll be blaming his socks for the streams going down...
On December 22 2012 09:37 Morrisson wrote: Bullshit explanation, easy to say what you could have done. It the heat of the moment, it's something different, especially agains stephano. We have seen games were people were more behind and came back.
yes but a judgement call has to be made if the comeback chance is approaching zero.. i mean.. a lot of us remember the gsl 5base vs 1base zvp game where the ladder ended up winning..
If he had half the balls and character of MKP he wouldn't have cried so hard for a free win, thats all that matters to 99% of the people complaining.
This. Koreans don't hesitate for a regame, whereas this self entitled, whiny crybaby BM'd and sweared his way to a free win. Congrats Xlord, too scared to take on Stephano in a BO5 where all you would have had to win is 1 more game?
This should have been resolved off-camera by the admins alone.
You must not let other players who are still in the tournament decide the fate of their potential opponents in rounds to come.
When you ask other pros for their input and to make a judgment call, the players affected should not be present to interfere and influence the outcome.
Xlord should have better kept his cool and show sportsmanship. A moot point if the above had been heeded.
On December 22 2012 10:22 Serpico wrote: If a player used that kind of tone and speech with an official in any real league his ass would be kicked out instantly. It's part of why still think esports is a joke. In the NBA if you get uppity with a ref you get tossed out and if you still refuse to leave the court you get a suspension most likely. It's harder for admins to do their jobs when people try to fuck with them. At the same time admins need to make a decision and tell players to deal with it and don't show up to the tournament next time if you're that upset.
On December 22 2012 10:21 NeutralDepot wrote: The interesting thing actually is how often disconnects and pc shutdowns happen to Stephano in live Tournaments. Especially when he's in a disadvantagous position. he also likes to play with bare feet or socks. There might be a connection.........
Do you remember his behavior in the game vs BabyK. Delaying the games by eating/BEING ON THE PHONE (WTF???). In generally I'd be pretty reluctant to decide anything in Stephano's favor.
He was on the phone because there was a problem with his computer which needed addressing, they could not play until it got fixed. Next you'll be blaming his socks for the streams going down...
He was also texting after one game. Was that because there was another problem with his computer? Or do you remember when he used an Ipod in the MLG booth during a game against Sase? He was probably listening to some engineer about fixing his computer midgame.
this was your game, admins should have called it but i can totaly understand that you wouldnt go for a bo5.. sad hsc crew gets all the shit now, but you can only learn from your mistakes.
On December 22 2012 10:22 Serpico wrote: If a player used that kind of tone and speech with an official in any real league his ass would be kicked out instantly. It's part of why still think esports is a joke. In the NBA if you get uppity with a ref you get tossed out and if you still refuse to leave the court you get a suspension most likely. It's harder for admins to do their jobs when people try to fuck with them. At the same time admins need to make a decision and tell players to deal with it and don't show up to the tournament next time if you're that upset.
He's not a native speaker. Just look at all those people casting saying "fuck".
On December 22 2012 10:32 KT(Rolster)HaunteR wrote: It should've 100% been a re-game.
Unless there's a 100% chance to win, which it wasn't. Whining about it didn't help. Should've taken the Bo5 and not acted like a child.
+1 crying like a child "it was a freewin, i was a freewin" when both were somewhere near supply and where everything depends on engagement and even best of players screw up in realy easy situations... Yes, Xlord was realy ahead and most likely to win that game but its not near 100%. Especialy on that map, especialy in ZvZ, especialy vs Stephano. That game was much closer than Parting vs MKP in GSTL Finals.
On December 22 2012 10:32 KT(Rolster)HaunteR wrote: It should've 100% been a re-game.
Unless there's a 100% chance to win, which it wasn't. Whining about it didn't help. Should've taken the Bo5 and not acted like a child.
+1 crying like a child "it was a freewin, i was a freewin" when both were somewhere near supply and where everything depends on engagement and even best of players screw up in realy easy situations... Yes, Xlord was realy ahead and most likely to win that game but its not near 100%. Especialy on that map, especialy in ZvZ, especialy vs Stephano. That game was much closer than Parting vs MKP in GSTL Finals.
It should have been re-game.
I completely disagree it was probably going to be a win for him? Why force a re match if he was going to win anyway and it was clear then don't take it away from him. I don't think it was crying I think he's right.
It tells a lot about you that you don't even consider apologizing for your behaviour. 99% in here doesn't care about you getting the win, it is the matter of how you (and HSC) acted...
On December 22 2012 10:21 NeutralDepot wrote: The interesting thing actually is how often disconnects and pc shutdowns happen to Stephano in live Tournaments. Especially when he's in a disadvantagous position. he also likes to play with bare feet or socks. There might be a connection.........
Do you remember his behavior in the game vs BabyK. Delaying the games by eating/BEING ON THE PHONE (WTF???). In generally I'd be pretty reluctant to decide anything in Stephano's favor.
He was on the phone because there was a problem with his computer which needed addressing, they could not play until it got fixed. Next you'll be blaming his socks for the streams going down...
He was also texting after one game. Was that because there was another problem with his computer? Or do you remember when he used an Ipod in the MLG booth during a game against Sase? He was probably listening to some engineer about fixing his computer midgame.
Texting in between games is fairly common. Scarlett does it often. She sometimes actually posts here at TL in between games. Your conspiracies are very amusing though.
Not accepting the Bo5 just made you bad mannered. That's your fail, you lost a lot of followers, sad really :/
Good player, but just as he was ahead when he pushed on you and took an unfavourable engagement, you could have blown it the same way. You had some "plan" to win the engagement the same way again, but you didn't know everything, he could have maybe turned it his way in that engagement, but you didn't even accept 2-0 lead in bo5 so you really just let all the fans down, and your own reputation, I think you will have very people rooting for you tomorrow.
Bad manner or not i think we can all agree it was a cowardly act. If you truly believe you are the superior player i see no reason to deny the re-game or at least the Bo5.
I wonder how many of you would have acted differently with $10,000 on the line.
No problems with how this went down, shit happens. Notice how nobody is saying "well Stephano should have just conceded the game earlier because it's likely it was over". I find far more problems with a player who was very behind not saying "yeah ok, you had that" than I do with someone who was clearly ahead getting up in arms about a win they had in the bag that may be taken away from them.
Pretty disgusting to go ape shit and demand win over disconnect game especially at HSC. This whole Xlord attitude reminds me of pub tryhards. Kinda sad.
I think what you did was BM. I think posting on here makes things worse not better. I can't say this for certain, but I think you might have marred your possible win.
Your tone here and the tone you portrayed during the second match against Stephano today does not completely match up. I think a majority of us can agree that you were most likely going to win, but like anyone it was not definitive. It's easy to say you could have done this and that, given that you've had time to analyze your situation and to make a persuasive argument as to how you could have won. Although this completely ignores the side of Stephano where you can't predict a player's reaction completely, so things may have not gone as planned. There's also the issues of positioning and micro. You can say I would have put my army here and there, and fungal this and that, but when you play an RTS game it doesn't always happen to be like that. Sometimes people's control mess up, and we've seen that plenty with progamers even. I'm not trying to take credit away from you, but rather point out that nothing is definitive.
That said, I truly do understand why you would not want a re-game. Most people would agree that you were going to beat Stephano in the second match. In spite of that, it would have been mannered to either re-game or take Snute's advice and extend it to a best of five. If you truly believe you are better than Stephano, then I don't see any reason for you not to heed that suggestion. You would have been up 2-0 in a best of five, and Stephano would have to win three consecutive times in a row. That's pretty difficult, especially when it's a mirror match-up. What you did is not considered illegal or morally wrong, but its not what the fans wanted to see out of a progamer. Sportsmanship is one of the key factors to creating an entertaining sport. E-sports is not an exception. I always like seeing other players leave their booths at tournaments to shake their opponent's hand, no matter whether they lost or won. It's just a matter of sportsmanship. It keeps things civil, the fans are calm, and everyone is happy in general. Although what you did was considered bad sportsmanship, and that sir, is why you are receiving so much hate. Is Stephano had even won three consecutive times in a row to defeat you in a best of five, then does he not deserve it? It's going to be a difficult, bumpy road in order to gain fans and to gain back the ones you have already lost. Especially when you are being individually sponsored by a company like XMG, bad sportsmanship goes a long way in biting in the ass.
No one cares. The admin made a judgment that both players can accept. The viewer's opinion--the opinion of every person in this thread, save take, xlord, and stephano--doesn't matter. There really is no reason to create this thread.
Watched the VOD closely and what a bullshit call. and incredibly bad manner shown by Xlord. He is up in supply, and I think he was making 6 roaches. Stephano was down in supply but he made 15 roaches. Stephano had 2-2 upgrades and more hydras by a large amount. Xlord is on 2-0 upgrades but has infestors. All 3 casters say it's too hard to call which automatically should make it a regame since they can't tell what the end result would be. Xlord is killing the 4th which would get cancelled by Stephano so they have a very equal bank but Xlord has his 4th almost finishing but really it's not enough to decide a game over 1 base especially since Stephano could win the fight and either counter attack and win or kill the 4th of Xlord while he takes his own 4th again.
I'm cringing just watching this how Xlord stood over the caster and calling this a bronze league victory and that's it's 100% win when it's clearly not and how he is hellbent on not accepting any sort of compromise or middle ground.
Gotta say though a big fault in all of this is Take. Sitting on the cough telling the casters to vote(wtf?) and he seems to almost enjoy the situation. Sort your tournament out ffs and get an admin who can make an unbiased call. Having a fun and relaxed tournament is great but this was just trash management.
On December 22 2012 11:37 casualman wrote: No one cares. The admin made a judgment that both players can accept. The viewer's opinion--the opinion of every person in this thread, save take, xlord, and stephano--doesn't matter. There really is no reason to create this thread.
What admin? There was no admin anywhere to be seen. It was Stephano who asked Xlord what he wanted to do since he didn't want to take 2-0 and he didn't want to take 2-0 into a bo5. It was Stephano who stepped up and gave it away because he was pressured into the situation.
"Stephano said he could have the win if he wants it"
So I can tell thru text and not having been there.... and not even seeing this part on stream... that Stephano was just being polite and his usual carefree self. That does NOT warrant you actually going thru with it and giving Xlord the win. Take, you can't tell this when you're in the fucking room with them?
Just as one of the first posts said: If you had to discuss it for more than 2 seconds = Regame.
Xlord typing up a little reasoning as to why he thought he had the game won does nothing but continue to show a desperate person trying desperately to get a win any way he can. If he was a real competitor there would be no doubt in his mind that a re-game is the only avenue.... instead it was the exact opposite.
The wise decision is to call regame. You can never account for all the mistakes a player is able to make in one game and should not even try. Dont ever let it seems like there is no referee, in the end the referee HIMSELF should announce the decision, even if players agreed. The referee has to show his approval of the decision publicaly and put a close to the case (referee always right, no arguing, the ones who would argue this are stupid.) .
Just watched the VOD, my opinion is that Xlord would've lost the fight if he engaged and would've been still ahead yet Stephano would've had time to his fourth plus get a decent infestor count and once you have 8+ all bets are off. Main point is when nobody can definitively say that the game is over, it should be a re-game. None of the zergs on the couch seemed comfortable to call that unwinnable for Stephano. The smartest thing said was when TLO initially joined and said "what I think is a game should be almost 100% won for it to be (over)". Nobody was making that call but Xlord.
I'm not going to rake Xlord over the coals for trying to justify getting the win, but I do think the admins shouldn't have even offered a player involved in the game to even have an opinion. Its quite literally a worthless opinion. Getting opinions from other pros is definitely OK but clearly they were uncomfortable with being asked to make the call, again another signal that it should be a re-game.
On December 22 2012 11:47 DwD wrote: Watched the VOD closely and what a bullshit call. and incredibly bad manner shown by Xlord. He is up in supply, and I think he was making 6 roaches. Stephano was down in supply but he made 15 roaches. Stephano had 2-2 upgrades and more hydras by a large amount. Xlord is on 2-0 upgrades but has infestors. All 3 casters say it's too hard to call which automatically should make it a regame since they can't tell what the end result would be. Xlord is killing the 4th which would get cancelled by Stephano so they have a very equal bank but Xlord has his 4th almost finishing but really it's not enough to decide a game over 1 base especially since Stephano could win the fight and either counter attack and win or kill the 4th of Xlord while he takes his own 4th again.
I'm cringing just watching this how Xlord stood over the caster and calling this a bronze league victory and that's it's 100% win when it's clearly not and how he is hellbent on not accepting any sort of compromise or middle ground.
Gotta say though a big fault in all of this is Take. Sitting on the cough telling the casters to vote(wtf?) and he seems to almost enjoy the situation. Sort your tournament out ffs and get an admin who can make an unbiased call. Having a fun and relaxed tournament is great but this was just trash management.
On December 22 2012 11:37 casualman wrote: No one cares. The admin made a judgment that both players can accept. The viewer's opinion--the opinion of every person in this thread, save take, xlord, and stephano--doesn't matter. There really is no reason to create this thread.
What admin? There was no admin anywhere to be seen. It was Stephano who asked Xlord what he wanted to do since he didn't want to take 2-0 and he didn't want to take 2-0 into a bo5. It was Stephano who stepped up and gave it away because he was pressured into the situation.
Infestors are 'kind of a big deal' in zvz ( and every other matchup.. ) it was like ~90% xlords game, it was NOT a a-move scenario, but if he would have not fucked up realy bad this was his win. all casters agreed on that.
Like take said in his post, he thought about 'the friendly atmosphere' and thats kind of stupid.. the situation was handled bad, but xlord shouldnt have to take any blame.. he was asked about the bo5 lead, he didnt just jump into the discussion like people are saying here.. thats a big difference.
On December 22 2012 06:43 Bupi wrote: The moment when denis said, lets extend it to a bo5 and you stood there crying was the moment when i saw that u have 0% sportmanship You wont get any respect by me and i hope you get kicked out of your team
You, "Bupi", are a bad person. I hope you take this statement as personally as you meant the stuff you wrote, because it was a only a few sentences and already a horrible read.
Just chiming in as another that is quite disappointed with the behavior of Xlord. Very immature. The Bo5 compromise offered was extremely reasonable and accepting it would have made you look favorable.
Instead, you chose to look childish and fight over a tiny win. You have now tarnished your entire reputation for one rather insignificant game in one tournament.
Calling a position against one of the world's best Zergs "bronze league" and belligerently disagreeing with the opinions of a room full of seasoned progamers makes you look extremely selfish and naive.
On December 22 2012 10:32 KT(Rolster)HaunteR wrote: It should've 100% been a re-game.
Unless there's a 100% chance to win, which it wasn't. Whining about it didn't help. Should've taken the Bo5 and not acted like a child.
+1 crying like a child "it was a freewin, i was a freewin" when both were somewhere near supply and where everything depends on engagement and even best of players screw up in realy easy situations... Yes, Xlord was realy ahead and most likely to win that game but its not near 100%. Especialy on that map, especialy in ZvZ, especialy vs Stephano. That game was much closer than Parting vs MKP in GSTL Finals.
It should have been re-game.
The problem is that this can causes major rigging. Someone could cause a disconnect when they think they are going to lose.
On December 22 2012 11:47 DwD wrote: Watched the VOD closely and what a bullshit call. and incredibly bad manner shown by Xlord. He is up in supply, and I think he was making 6 roaches. Stephano was down in supply but he made 15 roaches. Stephano had 2-2 upgrades and more hydras by a large amount. Xlord is on 2-0 upgrades but has infestors. All 3 casters say it's too hard to call which automatically should make it a regame since they can't tell what the end result would be. Xlord is killing the 4th which would get cancelled by Stephano so they have a very equal bank but Xlord has his 4th almost finishing but really it's not enough to decide a game over 1 base especially since Stephano could win the fight and either counter attack and win or kill the 4th of Xlord while he takes his own 4th again.
I'm cringing just watching this how Xlord stood over the caster and calling this a bronze league victory and that's it's 100% win when it's clearly not and how he is hellbent on not accepting any sort of compromise or middle ground.
Gotta say though a big fault in all of this is Take. Sitting on the cough telling the casters to vote(wtf?) and he seems to almost enjoy the situation. Sort your tournament out ffs and get an admin who can make an unbiased call. Having a fun and relaxed tournament is great but this was just trash management.
On December 22 2012 11:37 casualman wrote: No one cares. The admin made a judgment that both players can accept. The viewer's opinion--the opinion of every person in this thread, save take, xlord, and stephano--doesn't matter. There really is no reason to create this thread.
What admin? There was no admin anywhere to be seen. It was Stephano who asked Xlord what he wanted to do since he didn't want to take 2-0 and he didn't want to take 2-0 into a bo5. It was Stephano who stepped up and gave it away because he was pressured into the situation.
Infestors are 'kind of a big deal' in zvz ( and every other matchup.. ) it was like ~90% xlords game, it was NOT a a-move scenario, but if he would have not fucked up realy bad this was his win. all casters agreed on that.
Like take said in his post, he thought about 'the friendly atmosphere' and thats kind of stupid.. the situation was handled bad, but xlord shouldnt have to take any blame.. he was asked about the bo5 lead, he didnt just jump into the discussion like people are saying here.. thats a big difference.
What this dude said is correct. Yeah, XLord had that game basically and Take did not manage the situation well, made a mistake. So what? If you do all kinds of stuff for the community, mistakes here and there are bound to happen. Now he gets flamed by dudes, who in the large majority never did anything for the community. Bloody unthankful!
The whole thing gets so blown out of proportion, XLord basically has already 400 flames on reddit. Shameful like the Destiny or Stephano affair, certain parts of this community do nothing but bitching and telling others what to do from their armchairs, without actually getting something done for the community as a whole. Should be called witchhunting syndrome...
On December 22 2012 11:51 SicPro wrote: "Stephano said he could have the win if he wants it"
So I can tell thru text and not having been there.... and not even seeing this part on stream... that Stephano was just being polite and his usual carefree self. That does NOT warrant you actually going thru with it and giving Xlord the win. Take, you can't tell this when you're in the fucking room with them?
Just as one of the first posts said: If you had to discuss it for more than 2 seconds = Regame.
Xlord typing up a little reasoning as to why he thought he had the game won does nothing but continue to show a desperate person trying desperately to get a win any way he can. If he was a real competitor there would be no doubt in his mind that a re-game is the only avenue.... instead it was the exact opposite.
What an unthankfull situation for Xlord created by the Admins. To be put on the spot and asked for his opinion in front of a ~25k audiance on a livestream is a situation where there is no winning move. Either he agrees for a rematch / Bo5 and definitly revokes his hard worked for advantage. Or on the other hand if he dares to argue for his case he looses face. Maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but Xlord seems like the true loser here cause he was put in an such a ungreatfull situation?
Personally I think that a rule that extands the series to the next higher gamecount should be the fixed outcome of unclear matches.
Well, can't blame the players for this situation, every other competitor of some kind of game would've acted just like Xlord.
The whole situation is clearly Blizzard's fault and they should get much more hate for this shit, but it seems like people are getting used to the shit of Blizzard.
The admins should never ever have placed the decision upon three PLAYERS. That is probably the most unprofessional thing I've ever seen. The fact that happened is terrible enough, but the fact it was streamed and that XlorD was anywhere near them is even worse.
You shouldn't feel too bad about it, but you could have handled yourself with a bit more grace(not argued with people discussing the game). Anyway, gl tomorrow you played extremely well.
Why is the judgement call being made on stream in the first place? Admins should be doing this all off camera (and SHOULD be listening to appeals from the players as well as any third parties should they need unbiased expert opinions) not in front of viewers.
In my opinion I think it was a really bad attitude from your part, If you are really confident in your skills why not take a regame and beat him again, or if the rules apply maybe extend it to a Bo5?
On December 22 2012 12:38 Champloo wrote: Well, can't blame the players for this situation, every other competitor of some kind of game would've acted just like Xlord
Besides 90% of players maybe. Shit, wasnt incontrol telling a story about how Idra regamed a 100% won game agaisnt Artosis in BW? And he was one BM sob.
2:38:00
If Idra could do this... why xlord couldnt?
Oh yeah because every player would act like xlord... lol priceless.
Have two good zerg players completely reanact this situation and and play it out.
What XLord did was completely right. He is not a financially loaded player and should take any opportunity to secure money. Everybody who says Xlord has lost fans in this process is bullshitting around. It's not like Xlord had a large fanbase to begin with. Look at professional football. Players do everything to get an advantage there from arguing to rough play and dives.
His argument in the discussion is completely flawed though and nobody noticed. ;-) He had NO IDEA AT ALL what was on the high ground of Stephanos main. It's completely possible at this point of the game to have like three infestors waiting there to fungal Xlords whole army. When he made his statement he did it with the knowledge of the replay not with the knowledge he had ingame.
Initially when reading about it, I was pretty much in the "xlord is an immature douchebag" corner. But after watching it live, it's not nearly as bad as I thought. xlord was a bit immature, but in the end he's a player who wanted to win in a game where he had an advantage. Who's to say what would've happened in that game? His behavior was a bit immature but I can understand where he's coming from and especially after the way the game ended. A regame wouldn't be "fair" (though it probably was the best option, it still wouldn't be fair. You would be taking away the advantage he had gained in that game)
However the way this was handled (or wasn't) by Take was really disappointing. Watching the VOD it didn't really seem like he took it as seriously as it needed to be taken, especially trying to get player/casters to make a decision in front of 25k people on live stream. That shit shouldn't happen.
there are a variety of ways it could've been handled. In a situation like this nobody is really going to be happy with the outcome 100%, but you gotta do what is most fair for both players. Snute's idea was neat but I think unnecessary, a simple regame was the best possible solution to a shitty situation, and you needed whoever was running the tournament that being some kind of admin, Take, or whoever to make that executive decision. It's not fair, but the best possible outcome.
I'd watch out for stephano now though, I think he might just take the whole thing now
On December 22 2012 10:32 KT(Rolster)HaunteR wrote: It should've 100% been a re-game.
Unless there's a 100% chance to win, which it wasn't. Whining about it didn't help. Should've taken the Bo5 and not acted like a child.
+1 crying like a child "it was a freewin, i was a freewin" when both were somewhere near supply and where everything depends on engagement and even best of players screw up in realy easy situations... Yes, Xlord was realy ahead and most likely to win that game but its not near 100%. Especialy on that map, especialy in ZvZ, especialy vs Stephano. That game was much closer than Parting vs MKP in GSTL Finals.
It should have been re-game.
The problem is that this can causes major rigging. Someone could cause a disconnect when they think they are going to lose.
As far as the TSL is concerned, we never award def wins to the player who disconnects as it is his responsibility to ensure that his internet is stable. But if someone is winning and the opponent disconnects, and it is a 100% def win then we give the game. Otherwise, regame. However at a LAN situation you would expect that obvious self-disconnects to be caught by other players and horrible repercussions going to the dc'er.
On December 22 2012 06:34 Hardigan wrote: the games had to be discussed for more than 10 sec. Hence: regame
Logic approved. Anything that has a SLIVER of doubt should be regamed. 50 supply lead is bad, a really bad disadvantage for any player but we've seen bigger come backs!
I don't get why if there is any sliver of doubt there needs to be a regame. It seems obvious to me that you should regame if the game was less than 75% (well, the fact that the number should be 75% isn't completely apparent, but the general idea persists...) won for one player (i.e. if they played it out a million times, they'd win 75% of the time).
If someone is in a 90% win situation it's unfair to take away their advantage, just like it would be unfair to award a win to a player with a 60% win situation.
An example where this happens in "real" sport is baseball, where, if a game is delayed, and ultimately cancelled in the middle because of inclement weather, the team in the lead is awarded the game if at least four and a half innings have been played and the losing side has had at least the same number of innings at bat as the winning side. (If those conditions are not met then the game is resumed at a later date -- baseball being a game where you can save and resume, of course) A team obviously has a good chance to come back from a 2-1 deficit in the sixth inning, but you award the game to the leading team anyway.
On December 22 2012 14:11 Kentredenite wrote: I don't get why if there is any sliver of doubt there needs to be a regame. It seems obvious to me that you should regame if the game was less than 75% (well, the fact that the number should be 75% isn't completely apparent, but the general idea persists...) won for one player (i.e. if they played it out a million times, they'd win 75% of the time).
If someone is in a 90% win situation it's unfair to take away their advantage, just like it would be unfair to award a win to a player with a 60% win situation.
An example where this happens in "real" sport is baseball, where, if a game is delayed, and ultimately cancelled in the middle because of inclement weather, the team in the lead is awarded the game if at least four and a half innings have been played and the losing side has had at least the same number of innings at bat as the winning side. (If those conditions are not met then the game is resumed at a later date -- baseball being a game where you can save and resume, of course) A team obviously has a good chance to come back from a 2-1 deficit in the sixth inning, but you award the game to the leading team anyway.
starcraft is not baseball, in baseball if its the final inning and one team has a 50 point lead the other team cant just win it all right there
in starcraft, ESPECIALLY in ZvZ no matter how grim things look its entirely possible for you to come back, hell being behind in the early/mid game could even wind up helping you in the late game if it means you have fresher bases then your opponent
On December 22 2012 14:11 Kentredenite wrote: I don't get why if there is any sliver of doubt there needs to be a regame. It seems obvious to me that you should regame if the game was less than 75% (well, the fact that the number should be 75% isn't completely apparent, but the general idea persists...) won for one player (i.e. if they played it out a million times, they'd win 75% of the time).
If someone is in a 90% win situation it's unfair to take away their advantage, just like it would be unfair to award a win to a player with a 60% win situation.
An example where this happens in "real" sport is baseball, where, if a game is delayed, and ultimately cancelled in the middle because of inclement weather, the team in the lead is awarded the game if at least four and a half innings have been played and the losing side has had at least the same number of innings at bat as the winning side. (If those conditions are not met then the game is resumed at a later date -- baseball being a game where you can save and resume, of course) A team obviously has a good chance to come back from a 2-1 deficit in the sixth inning, but you award the game to the leading team anyway.
starcraft is not baseball, in baseball if its the final inning and one team has a 50 point lead the other team cant just win it all right there
in starcraft, ESPECIALLY in ZvZ no matter how grim things look its entirely possible for you to come back, hell being behind in the early/mid game could even wind up helping you in the late game if it means you have fresher bases then your opponent
Kind of a bad analogy, because in baseball, there is no timer. A team can literally ALWAYS technically make a comeback as long as they have outs left to give.
I went to bed after that disc, so I don't know what happend afterwards. But in my mind there was no doubt that this would be a regame, very surprised they just gave that to xlord. Worst possible decision. Xlord had a lead but it wasn't over. Of course a regame would have been kind of unfair too, but that's just the way it is. A Bo5 would have been the best decision imo.
On December 22 2012 12:38 Champloo wrote: Well, can't blame the players for this situation, every other competitor of some kind of game would've acted just like Xlord
Besides 90% of players maybe. Shit, wasnt incontrol telling a story about how Idra regamed a 100% won game agaisnt Artosis in BW? And he was one BM sob.
On December 22 2012 06:35 Kenny_oro wrote: You're not seen as bad mannered for playing a good game. The disconnect wasn't your fault.
But what's the pont of arguing with the casters which already were forced in the uncomfortable situation to make a decission.
You should've just leaned back to wait for the decission instead of arguing with TLO on stream like a madman.
If you're that confident in your skill - why not just take the 20 and extend it to the BO5?
Nobody argued about your lead in that game - But a lead doesn't mean freewin. You should know that.
TL;DR version - "I say that you aren't bad mannered but arguing like a gypsy at a market for a free win, means that you are indeed a bad mannered player relying on free wins" Yep, I totally support that thinking too, Kenny_oro
why are people writing this.... of course he wants to argue for his, rightly deserved win. I would do that too... hell everyone would do that in that situation.
I feel bad for Xlord in this situation, because he was put in a lose lose situation: either his work to get an advantage over stephano is nullified, or he loses face by accepting a win that was by no means guaranteed. I think it is fair for the players' decision to determine the outcome, if they agree. But the way Stephano presented it (when on camera) the win was not offered because the game was won, it was offered because Stephano was fed up with the b.s. This, while understandable, unfortunately put Xlord in a situation of having to appear to accept a win that he didn't earn. I think that is why he got very excited on stream in defending his position. I would have like to see Xlord defer to Take's judgment in response to Stephano's resignation offer. That would've been the classiest move. While there is nothing wrong with accepting an opponent's resignation in the right circumstances, there are circumstances in which it is right to decline.
On December 22 2012 14:55 Dwayn wrote: I went to bed after that disc, so I don't know what happend afterwards. But in my mind there was no doubt that this would be a regame, very surprised they just gave that to xlord. Worst possible decision. Xlord had a lead but it wasn't over. Of course a regame would have been kind of unfair too, but that's just the way it is. A Bo5 would have been the best decision imo.
It was over.. unless xlord basically lost all his skills and knowledge as a progamer or he suddenly got very drunk out of nothing, he would close that game.
No matter what decision is made in cases like this there will always be some people upset. Obviously Stephano has a lot more fans so most will be taking his side but think if the roles were reversed and Stephano had the lead- wouldn't you be disappointed if he had to regame? I'm not saying this was definitely the best decision but you have to see it from both sides and how difficult these kind of decisions are for admins. Also if you make regaming standard practice no matter what kind of lead there is then there's more chance that players will deliberately DC when they're losing.
On December 22 2012 14:55 Dwayn wrote: I went to bed after that disc, so I don't know what happend afterwards. But in my mind there was no doubt that this would be a regame, very surprised they just gave that to xlord. Worst possible decision. Xlord had a lead but it wasn't over. Of course a regame would have been kind of unfair too, but that's just the way it is. A Bo5 would have been the best decision imo.
It was over.. unless xlord basically lost all his skills and knowledge as a progamer or he suddenly got very drunk out of nothing, he would close that game.
aparently progamers getting very drunk out of nothing or losing all there skills and knowledge happens pretty often becuase ive seen tons of comebacks from worse position then Stephanos
On December 22 2012 14:55 Dwayn wrote: I went to bed after that disc, so I don't know what happend afterwards. But in my mind there was no doubt that this would be a regame, very surprised they just gave that to xlord. Worst possible decision. Xlord had a lead but it wasn't over. Of course a regame would have been kind of unfair too, but that's just the way it is. A Bo5 would have been the best decision imo.
It was over.. unless xlord basically lost all his skills and knowledge as a progamer or he suddenly got very drunk out of nothing, he would close that game.
i remember when mkp got a regame against parting( or a really good protoss ) in the gstl finals after he 150% lost the game, it was on entombed, people were argueing he had units making in his baracks but the protoss was camping like 3 of them and was about to go kill him. I hated the admins of gom for that decision, im really glad with this decision now, good job !
Xlord was very ahead but still his manner is pretty lacking.
Everybody who was watching saw XlorD's attitude while shouting "It's FREEWIN,see,it's freewin,why regame? "
That's just a bad attitude for a competitor,doesnt matter if he was actually really ahead.
And it's bad to act that way in an event such as HomestoryCup. It should be a friendly event with the best of manners
sorry if my english is not the best.
On December 22 2012 15:56 Keldrath wrote: If it was me in that situation I personally would have asked for a regame rather than a defwin. I mean, if I win a series or a match, I wouldn't want there to be any question over whether I did or not. It would take away from the legitimacy of the win, and it would make me look like a poor sport as well.
If it was me in that situation I personally would have asked for a regame rather than a defwin. I mean, if I win a series or a match, I wouldn't want there to be any question over whether I did or not. It would take away from the legitimacy of the win, and it would make me look like a poor sport as well.
On December 22 2012 15:56 Keldrath wrote: If it was me in that situation I personally would have asked for a regame rather than a defwin. I mean, if I win a series or a match, I wouldn't want there to be any question over whether I did or not. It would take away from the legitimacy of the win, and it would make me look like a poor sport as well.
yeah ofc. you are way..way ahead in a game about a lot of money and moments after the disconnect you are just really calm and ask for a regame,because thats so obvious and exactly everyone all the time acts like that.
i mean i cant argue against your statement,it may be true or it may be bs but i dont understand at all,how (edit: ) people (/edit) can be mad about someone reacting like xlord did in this kind of situation. but i guess its so easy to judge if you are watching the scenario on a stream.
edit2 : i personally think its a close decision towards a regame considering previous incidents. but i also think its bullshit that you have to have a 98% win to get the win. you are just punishing the winning player so hard by that..
On December 22 2012 15:56 Keldrath wrote: If it was me in that situation I personally would have asked for a regame rather than a defwin. I mean, if I win a series or a match, I wouldn't want there to be any question over whether I did or not. It would take away from the legitimacy of the win, and it would make me look like a poor sport as well.
yeah ofc. you are way..way ahead in a game about a lot of money and moments after the disconnect you are just really calm and ask for a regame,because thats so obvious and exactly everyone all the time acts like that.
i mean i cant argue against your statement,it may be true or it may be bs but i dont understand at all,how you can be mad about someone reacting like xlord did in this kind of situation. but i guess its so easy to judge if you are watching the scenario on a stream.
Why don't mods here just close threads once they've run their course?
Nothing new or interesting will happen here 15 pages in. We all know the facts, do we need another 14 pages of people saying "lel ur bad m8" or "ur fine m8 xD".
Xlord, this is how I see it. Deserve the win or not, hard to say, I'm not here to argue that.
You are a strong player, and congrats on getting through, and however because of your immature shenanigans and arguing on stream, I have lost all my like for you as a player. You have one less fan here , probably more others feel the same.
Even though you got farther in the tourney, I think what you did will impact you negatively.
On December 22 2012 16:47 DwarfTherapist wrote: Why don't mods here just close threads once they've run their course?
Nothing new or interesting will happen here 15 pages in. We all know the facts, do we need another 14 pages of people saying "lel ur bad m8" or "ur fine m8 xD".
Please stop.
If it's closed nobody else will see the thread. Everyone deserves to offer their input if they're following forum etiquette imo.
On December 22 2012 10:32 KT(Rolster)HaunteR wrote: It should've 100% been a re-game.
Unless there's a 100% chance to win, which it wasn't. Whining about it didn't help. Should've taken the Bo5 and not acted like a child.
+1 crying like a child "it was a freewin, i was a freewin" when both were somewhere near supply and where everything depends on engagement and even best of players screw up in realy easy situations... Yes, Xlord was realy ahead and most likely to win that game but its not near 100%. Especialy on that map, especialy in ZvZ, especialy vs Stephano. That game was much closer than Parting vs MKP in GSTL Finals.
It should have been re-game.
The problem is that this can causes major rigging. Someone could cause a disconnect when they think they are going to lose.
As far as the TSL is concerned, we never award def wins to the player who disconnects as it is his responsibility to ensure that his internet is stable. But if someone is winning and the opponent disconnects, and it is a 100% def win then we give the game. Otherwise, regame. However at a LAN situation you would expect that obvious self-disconnects to be caught by other players and horrible repercussions going to the dc'er.
And thats what Take and admins of HSC should have thought, but sadly, they didnt. Yes, it would be shitty for xlord to not have a free win in that game, but thats what about SC2 without LAN, its not Stephanos fault that SC2 does not have LAN so then he has to get free loss...
And the thing is xlord have rights to be BM, "be like a child" etc. cause he is on emotions, he is a player. Its up to admins to have cold heads to think fairly and make right decisions.
On December 22 2012 17:08 FiWiFaKi wrote: Xlord, this is how I see it. Deserve the win or not, hard to say, I'm not here to argue that.
You are a strong player, and congrats on getting through, and however because of your immature shenanigans and arguing on stream, I have lost all my like for you as a player. You have one less fan here , probably more others feel the same.
Even though you got farther in the tourney, I think what you did will impact you negatively.
This. It will drag along you as develop your career. What people will remember from this, is not the fact that you were ahead or behind in this game, but rather you jumping to the admins' desk and trying to extort the win.
On December 22 2012 17:08 FiWiFaKi wrote: Xlord, this is how I see it. Deserve the win or not, hard to say, I'm not here to argue that.
You are a strong player, and congrats on getting through, and however because of your immature shenanigans and arguing on stream, I have lost all my like for you as a player. You have one less fan here , probably more others feel the same.
Even though you got farther in the tourney, I think what you did will impact you negatively.
This. It will drag along you as develop your career. What people will remember from this, is not the fact that you were ahead or behind in this game, but rather you jumping to the admins' desk and trying to extort the win.
Yet, professional athletes argue with refs all the time. It is just the nature of competing. It is up to the admins to make the call.
On December 22 2012 17:08 FiWiFaKi wrote: Xlord, this is how I see it. Deserve the win or not, hard to say, I'm not here to argue that.
You are a strong player, and congrats on getting through, and however because of your immature shenanigans and arguing on stream, I have lost all my like for you as a player. You have one less fan here , probably more others feel the same.
Even though you got farther in the tourney, I think what you did will impact you negatively.
This. It will drag along you as develop your career. What people will remember from this, is not the fact that you were ahead or behind in this game, but rather you jumping to the admins' desk and trying to extort the win.
Yet, professional athletes argue with refs all the time. It is just the nature of competing. It is up to the admins to make the call.
It is HSC, I mean we can't treat everything black and white. What I am saying, is that he will be remembered for doing this at HSC which is supposed to be friendly, with some slack, competition.
Gimme a break guys, XLord was on the best run of his SC2 career, 4-0'ing Bly, 2-0'ing MMA, and a game plus a huge lead ahead of Stephano. To those guys, HSC is a bit of a blow-off tournament, but in SC2 you gotta take every chance you get to make a name for yourself. Of course XLord would take the opportunity seriously, and of course he was upset that it could all get destroyed by a DC and 2 more notoriously coin-flippy ZvZs. He had every right to argue his position and to do so forcefully.
If you want to get your flame on, go after the admins for their horrible decision-making process. Or worse, for streaming the whole thing. Heated, emotional discussions and internal decision-making should never, ever be broadcast like that. Simply horrible handling by the tournament organizers.
A lot of armchair nobodies making hypocritical statements in this thread. To be expected I guess. People blame XLord for getting heated when he has a lot of money and prestige on the line, while they themselves seem pretty heated with nothing on the line except wanting their favourite player to win. The more embittered their expressions of "I will never you like you again XLord" is, the more they demonstrate that put in a similar situation they would have acted exactly the same...
Just think about the situatioN: you start playing sc2 fulltime as a pro and at your breakout tournament you are about to win vs the best foreigner and favourite to win it all to advance to the playoffs. Then you get a DC and the opponent the regame. Now go ahead and tell me that you wouldn´t be fighting for your case because HSC is such a nice tournament and everybody is like hugs love and flowers there anyway..
I caught the end of this, saw xlord pointing at the screen and seeming upset, while others discussed.
But anyway, if stephano said it's xlord's win, it's xlord's win. Also, the player commentators said it was xlord's win, so that's that.
Doesn't matter if xlord was BM or not, as that's all subjective, if xlord is going to necessarily win he was going to necessarily win.
Glad to see stephano still in the tourney and I personally hope he wins :D But, I'm also super impressed with xlord's run and would be happy to see him go further.
No need to make any sort of admin decision from HSC into more than it needs to be - HSC is for showing a more personal side of things and when stupid shit like a DC happens, we should ignore it, or bitch about it in a different manner (to blizz specifically) rather than take it out on this particular tourney or players
On December 22 2012 18:02 JeanLuc wrote: A lot of armchair nobodies making hypocritical statements in this thread. To be expected I guess. People blame XLord for getting heated when he has a lot of money and prestige on the line, while they themselves seem pretty heated with nothing on the line except wanting their favourite player to win. The more embittered their expressions of "I will never you like you again XLord" is, the more they demonstrate that put in a similar situation they would have acted exactly the same...
On December 22 2012 18:01 Boiler Bandsman wrote: Gimme a break guys, XLord was on the best run of his SC2 career, 4-0'ing Bly, 2-0'ing MMA, and a game plus a huge lead ahead of Stephano. To those guys, HSC is a bit of a blow-off tournament, but in SC2 you gotta take every chance you get to make a name for yourself. Of course XLord would take the opportunity seriously, and of course he was upset that it could all get destroyed by a DC and 2 more notoriously coin-flippy ZvZs. He had every right to argue his position and to do so forcefully.
If you want to get your flame on, go after the admins for their horrible decision-making process. Or worse, for streaming the whole thing. Heated, emotional discussions and internal decision-making should never, ever be broadcast like that. Simply horrible handling by the tournament organizers.
It's exactly what those two said. I can understand people blaming the admins, even if all take wanted to do was the right thing. But you can't really blame XlorD for arguing for himself in a at least discussable situation.
I can understand why you took the win since the game was really in your favor. Still they offered you a way which would have gave you a big advantage and which would have made you look like a class act, you didn't choose it. (talking about the 2-0 bo5) Since it's the first time you ever reach a final bracket in sc2, I guess securing the win was more important than class.
/QUOTE] And thats what Take and admins of HSC should have thought, but sadly, they didnt. Yes, it would be shitty for xlord to not have a free win in that game, but thats what about SC2 without LAN, its not Stephanos fault that SC2 does not have LAN so then he has to get free loss...
And the thing is xlord have rights to be BM, "be like a child" etc. cause he is on emotions, he is a player. Its up to admins to have cold heads to think fairly and make right decisions.[/QUOTE]
Can't be a players fault. He was in the lead and wanted the win. The admins have to deceide if he gets it or not. Asking everyone for an opinion is not deceiding. Most of the drama was caused by the admins/Take trying to be "nice".
On December 22 2012 18:01 Boiler Bandsman wrote: Gimme a break guys, XLord was on the best run of his SC2 career, 4-0'ing Bly, 2-0'ing MMA, and a game plus a huge lead ahead of Stephano. To those guys, HSC is a bit of a blow-off tournament, but in SC2 you gotta take every chance you get to make a name for yourself. Of course XLord would take the opportunity seriously, and of course he was upset that it could all get destroyed by a DC and 2 more notoriously coin-flippy ZvZs. He had every right to argue his position and to do so forcefully.
If you want to get your flame on, go after the admins for their horrible decision-making process. Or worse, for streaming the whole thing. Heated, emotional discussions and internal decision-making should never, ever be broadcast like that. Simply horrible handling by the tournament organizers.
The fuck dude, you want to blame the admins (which is normal) and not condamn xlord attitude?
"It's a free win! Even bronze can win from this position!!!" Not only he is really bad manered but it's like his life is on the line. You cant have this attitude in a tournament. Like he wold have done that in a MLG, he wasnt in a position to argue, he doesnt have the right to and i can't understand how you can defend this attitude. The only sport where you can argue is football and even there you can get yellow cards.
To me he seemed like a very frustrated child, the stereotype of the gamer. But like you said yo have to do everything to win, even ruin the ambiance, it's just a wrong attitude, egoistic and immature. Did you see the casters face after Stephano said he can have the win? They were like "Wtf?" and didnt say anything for 30 seconds, it was so awkard and im sure they thought that Xlord was just bad manered and were embarrassed for his attitude. Nobody should caution this attitude, casters, take and stephano are only protecting Xlord to not ruin the ambiance more, they just step it up to not give him more hate (that he deserves in my opinion).
His post is also completely stupid, just add more to the stereotype. An explanation on why he should have won 100% won't resolve this because it's not the point (and even then it was not 100% win like he makes it out to be), the point is about yelling and raging trying to change the casters point of view. If i was him i would make public apologies about my bad attitude not this half-assed post, "it was the caster's and stephano's decision, no need for drama i didn't do anyhing bad, it's not m fault it turned out to be a drama subject".
After this, we talk about the bad jokes of Nerchio, Stephano, Idra, Cloud but wtf they never did something so bad manered in their life. Anyway i don't think i can change your way of thinking nor your attitude (and i suppose you are the same as Xlord in life if you defend him), do everything to win and be a real dick if you have to.
On December 22 2012 18:49 Acertos wrote:After this, we talk about the bad jokes of Nerchio, Stephano, Idra, Cloud but wtf they never did something so bad manered in their life. Anyway i don't think i can change your way of thinking nor your attitude (and i suppose you are the same as Xlord in life if you defend him), do everything to win and be a real dick if you have to.
If you think jokes about sexual abuse of minors is better than arguing over a rules decision there is something seriously wrong with you.
Yes you would have probably won the game, but as long as their is a chance for Stephano to win, be it as small as a 1% chance you regame.
I'm just upset that you handled the situation so unprofessionally by arguing about it on stream, 'What the fuck, its a fucking freewin' when Snute suggested a BO5 is a quote I remember amongst other things.
Thankfully this kind of problem will never have to happen again in HOTS.
I got eye cancer and several brain metastasis reading the angry posts on this thread. Good that you can throw your frustration here, hope you guys are better people in real life.
On December 22 2012 19:03 Bostock wrote: Yes you would have probably won the game, but as long as their is a chance for Stephano to win, be it as small as a 1% chance you regame.
I'm just upset that you handled the situation so unprofessionally by arguing about it on stream, 'What the fuck, its a fucking freewin' when Snute suggested a BO5 is a quote I remember amongst other things.
Thankfully this kind of problem will never have to happen again in HOTS.
That's not how it works, at all. It's a concept called "reasonable doubt" which is definitely not 1% vs 99%. Regaming is always unfair towards the winner, you've revealed your winning strategy. At one point a regame is not equitable at all, because you can always argue that someone has a >0% chance to win, with out drawing the line at some point simply isn't fair. You can argue about where the line is drawn, but that's a completely different argument from saying that deferred wins shouldn't be rewarded.
On December 22 2012 18:49 Acertos wrote:After this, we talk about the bad jokes of Nerchio, Stephano, Idra, Cloud but wtf they never did something so bad manered in their life. Anyway i don't think i can change your way of thinking nor your attitude (and i suppose you are the same as Xlord in life if you defend him), do everything to win and be a real dick if you have to.
If you think jokes about sexual abuse of minors is better than arguing over a rules decision there is something seriously wrong with you.
Yeah retardedd jokes to a friend going on the net then making real apologies and not getting salary is better than arguing and yelling on casters for no reason in a friendly tournament, putting shame on everybody and ruining the ambiance then making a silly post about "How it was 100% win".
You just have to put things in their context, and i didnt say it was better, i said that they never did something so bad manered like Xlord did last night.
On December 22 2012 18:49 Acertos wrote:After this, we talk about the bad jokes of Nerchio, Stephano, Idra, Cloud but wtf they never did something so bad manered in their life. Anyway i don't think i can change your way of thinking nor your attitude (and i suppose you are the same as Xlord in life if you defend him), do everything to win and be a real dick if you have to.
If you think jokes about sexual abuse of minors is better than arguing over a rules decision there is something seriously wrong with you.
Yeah retardedd jokes to a friend going on the net then making real apologies and not getting salary is better than arguing and yelling on casters for no reason in a friendly tournament, putting shame on everybody and ruining the ambiance then making a silly post about "How it was 100% win".
You just have to put things in their context, and i didnt say it was better, i said that they never did something so bad manered like Xlord did last night.
On December 22 2012 18:49 Acertos wrote:After this, we talk about the bad jokes of Nerchio, Stephano, Idra, Cloud but wtf they never did something so bad manered in their life. Anyway i don't think i can change your way of thinking nor your attitude (and i suppose you are the same as Xlord in life if you defend him), do everything to win and be a real dick if you have to.
If you think jokes about sexual abuse of minors is better than arguing over a rules decision there is something seriously wrong with you.
Yeah retardedd jokes to a friend going on the net then making real apologies and not getting salary is better than arguing and yelling on casters for no reason in a friendly tournament, putting shame on everybody and ruining the ambiance then making a silly post about "How it was 100% win".
You just have to put things in their context, and i didnt say it was better, i said that they never did something so bad manered like Xlord did last night.
Stephano's comment is not a joke.
Yeah it's not a joke you are right, in France going for 10 yrs old is totally normal it goes without saying.
On December 22 2012 18:49 Acertos wrote:After this, we talk about the bad jokes of Nerchio, Stephano, Idra, Cloud but wtf they never did something so bad manered in their life. Anyway i don't think i can change your way of thinking nor your attitude (and i suppose you are the same as Xlord in life if you defend him), do everything to win and be a real dick if you have to.
If you think jokes about sexual abuse of minors is better than arguing over a rules decision there is something seriously wrong with you.
Yeah retardedd jokes to a friend going on the net then making real apologies and not getting salary is better than arguing and yelling on casters for no reason in a friendly tournament, putting shame on everybody and ruining the ambiance then making a silly post about "How it was 100% win".
You just have to put things in their context, and i didnt say it was better, i said that they never did something so bad manered like Xlord did last night.
Stephano's comment is not a joke.
Yeah it's not a joke you are right, in France going for 10 yrs old is totally normal it goes without saying.
Glad you agreed. Nice culture in France though, thanks for the info. Didn't know that before.
Wow, people have a way to throw things out of proportions...
I just watched the scene and I can't say that Xlord reacted abusively. The fact that the discussion about the game happened just in front of the players was a mistake and it would have been impossible (abnormal) for the players to not react. Furthermore, they had a lot of pressure and frustration piled up, thus the kinda emotionnal response.
Xlord beleiving in victory gets robbed of it at last second and sees the possibility for even more nerve-wrecking games... I can understand he would argue. The fact that Stephano frustrated too gave him the win made both players feel even worse (i would) and after that there was no way to argue anymore. It made it so that Xlord was the bad guy (while his reaction was completely normal in the situation), thus the need for him to justify his win even after the decision.
I think that it was an unfortunate situation that was nobody's fault but as it caused much frustration, people needed a scapegoat, Xlord in this situation.
Finally I liked the way of playing of both players and hope they can make it even further in this tournament, without getting affected by the brainless attacks on this forum
Edit : "Yeah it's not a joke you are right, in France going for 10 yrs old is totally normal it goes without saying"./sarcasm? or just stupid?
In the heat of the battle.. Ofc Xlord is getting heated up after winning a major battle, and probably making the best results so far in his career. The admins should decide for themselves and not getting influenced by players, because they are obviously emotional involved. GG Xlord, continue your epic run!
In general, admins should have the confidence to make the call without consulting any players. Especially, the disconnecting parties should not be listened while making the decision. Just look at the rules and play by them. If the game has to be 100% over for it to be a win for either player, then it should not be hard to look at the replay and see if it was really over. I have made a few regame calls, but never had to give a win in a disconnect. Usually an admin decision is not even needed because the disconnect happens in an even situation and the players just agree to a regame.
The offered BO5 was a bad idea in my opinion because it clearly wasn't in the rules. Of course the admins usually retain the right to change the rules if necessary, but that is normally reserved for surprising situations, not for cases that are already clearly stated in the rules. However, I don't know if they have any rules at HCS6, but I assume they do.
In the heat of the battle.. Ofc Xlord is getting heated up after winning a major battle, and probably making the best results so far in his career. The admins should decide for themselves and not getting influenced by players, because they are obviously emotional involved. GG Xlord, continue your epic run!
On December 22 2012 19:40 Kanaz wrote: In the heat of the battle.. Ofc Xlord is getting heated up after winning a major battle, and probably making the best results so far in his career. The admins should decide for themselves and not getting influenced by players, because they are obviously emotional involved. GG Xlord, continue your epic run!
There should not be such thing as a heat of the battle, anger and emotion at HSC. But, as some people pointed out, it is a breaktrough tournament for him, I can partially understand why he did what he did. Probably emotions took the best of him. I don't hold any grudge against the guy, hell I don't know what I would do there, I wish him all the best in his career.
I think that in the future he should be more mindful of how his actions are going to be perceived, because as of the moment many people consider him to be a top dickhead of SC2 and if he wont produce any results in the future he will be either competely forgotten about or remembered as the one who put a crack on HSC image with that stunt.
On December 22 2012 19:40 Kanaz wrote: In the heat of the battle.. Ofc Xlord is getting heated up after winning a major battle, and probably making the best results so far in his career. The admins should decide for themselves and not getting influenced by players, because they are obviously emotional involved. GG Xlord, continue your epic run!
There should not be such thing as a heat of the battle, anger and emotion at HSC. But, as some people pointed out, it is a breaktrough tournament for him, I can partially understand why he did what he did. Probably emotions took the best of him. I don't hold any grudge against the guy, hell I don't know what I would do there, I wish him all the best in his career.
I think that in the future he should be more mindful of how his actions are going to be perceived, because as of the moment many people consider him to be a top dickhead of SC2 and if he wont produce any results in the future he will be either competely forgotten about or remembered as the one who put a crack on HSC image with that stunt.
Only for some people. For me his actions were completely understandable and justified. He had the game won, there was no need for false modesty. I bet the people whining about his actions are the same people that whine about emotionless Koreans.
How do you want someone not to react when all his efforts to a close victory might be considered NULL just before him. He had the right to argue about his victory, the admins had the duty not to take him into account This is why, usually protagonists aren't present in these cases.
Edit: same as above Edit 2 : I don't say that the victory should have been given to him or the game should have been replayed, just that he did nothing wrong and all the rage on this thread is stupid.
Next time Stephano meets Xlord in a tournament again he should pull his own networkplug in the first 10 seconds of the game. From there enforce the rules of: I'm 66:33 favorite in this game (since all the admins thought at least so), so it's a clear win for me. Do that 2 times in a BO3. <1min win.
During 2012 Summer Olympics a sudden accident shocked the audience. In the middle of a highly anticipated 100m sprint a meteor, 2m in radius, hit the track fully destroying it. Luckly nobody was hurt. At the time of the hit Usain Bolt was 5 meters ahead of his opponents and was sure to win. Everybody knew his lead and skill was substantial and insurmountable. As a result the judges decided not to repeat the run and award Usain the gold medal due to his early lead.
On December 22 2012 20:06 GunSec wrote: ffs just let him get the win, its his first time cashing in a big tournament and maybe last time as well(?)
Why would it be the last time? xlord had a great wc3 career and is now a full-time pro, he definitely showed his potential in this tournament.
People really need to give this guy a break. Ofc he was pissed and emotional after a disconnect like this. I guess there wasn't enough drama lately so people need to blow this out of proportion.
I really don't like that XlorD continues to call the situation a freewin or "defwin". Of course the pros, and even the players involved, can analyze the replay all they want but unless the game is completely and obviously 100% won, pros can make mistakes, and pros can make comebacks. I don't think a 15 minute long discussion between 4-5 people with multiple replay viewings indicates this as an obvious choice.
people only hating on xlord cause he isn't well know If roles were reversed and stephano had a noticeable lead when connection dropped and he argued for a defwin all of you would be here defending him stfu and stop acting like children If you can honestly say you wouldn't have reacted the same you either have neurological or psychological condition prohibiting proper emotional responses or you simply don't care enough to be able to make it to such a tournament
On December 22 2012 20:12 Baptista wrote: During 2012 Summer Olympics a sudden accident shocked the audience. In the middle of a highly anticipated 100m sprint a meteor, 2m in radius, hit the track fully destroying it. Luckly nobody was hurt. At the time of the hit Usain Bolt was 5 meters ahead of his opponents and was sure to win. Everybody knew his lead and skill was substantial and insurmountable. As a result the judges decided not to repeat the run and award Usain the gold medal due to his early lead.
On December 22 2012 20:08 Prox wrote: Next time Stephano meets Xlord in a tournament again he should pull his own networkplug in the first 10 seconds of the game. From there enforce the rules of: I'm 66:33 favorite in this game (since all the admins thought at least so), so it's a clear win for me. Do that 2 times in a BO3. <1min win.
I've seen some retarded post in my life, and this is definitely top 10. A replay if the game is not 100% win is a pretty dumb rule also. Using these logic and argument. Any time a player find themselves making a bad judgement call such as getting cheesed or having a failed cheese. They can simply "pull the plug" and demand a regame.
The Xlord have a big enough advantage as it is so that if the game proceed as it normally would, Xlord would be the winner. Sure, there could be a ling run by, or someone taken a wrench to Xlord knee, but that still doesn't change the fact that he was heavily favored to win at the time of the disconnect. If I was the ref, I would of given Xlord the win but offer him the option of a regame if he want to be a good sport about it. Either way, the game was advantageous enough right before the disconnect for Xlord that the decision for a regame should be left to him.
On December 22 2012 20:12 Baptista wrote: During 2012 Summer Olympics a sudden accident shocked the audience. In the middle of a highly anticipated 100m sprint a meteor, 2m in radius, hit the track fully destroying it. Luckly nobody was hurt. At the time of the hit Usain Bolt was 5 meters ahead of his opponents and was sure to win. Everybody knew his lead and skill was substantial and insurmountable. As a result the judges decided not to repeat the run and award Usain the gold medal due to his early lead.
i don't understand, what are you trying to say?
He was trying to say that Xlord was ahead enough that it would be a bad call for any ref not to offer him the win especially since he wasn't responsible for the disconnect.
Stephano just came off as a boss, and well, X-lord as a good zerg player, but thats about it. Sports is about PR man, you should know that. Imagine if you had been the one just saying rematch, you would be the boss, and you fanbase would grow. But instead ya focused on the short term win. I understand why you did it, i just think it was the wrong call. Perception is reality, if ya wanna be a winner, appear as a winner.
On December 22 2012 07:23 TaKeSeN wrote: Before we were discussing the disconnect live on stream we have been talking to xlord and Stephano offcamera,
Well thats the problem you shouldnt be talking to the 2 players about this... most of the time they will be hugely based and you just end up with players looking good/bad to their fans. There is a reason players are not included in the decisions in many major tournaments.
It should only be admin's or other pro players who are not based makeing the decision. If Stephano had any real chance to comeback it should a regame and if not Xlord wins and then people wouldnt be mad at Xlord if you made that decision.
Also you could clearly se the way Stephano responded on stream he wasent realy happy about it and Xlord got alot of hate that he dident need to get.
On December 22 2012 20:54 Benkestok wrote: Stephano just came off as a boss, and well, X-lord as a good zerg player, but thats about it. Sports is about PR man, you should know that. Imagine if you had been the one just saying rematch, you would be the boss, and you fanbase would grow. But instead ya focused on the short term win. I understand why you did it, i just think it was the wrong call. Perception is reality, if ya wanna be a winner, appear as a winner.
Wrong. If a person doesn't have enough desire to win and willing to do everything in his power to win fairly, they can't ever become an amazing player. I remember when people bitch about how Naniwar was being disrespectful not trying he know there no possible way for him to advance. Now people are bitching about a player who take the game seriously enough to fight for a win that was fairly and rightfully his.
On December 22 2012 20:54 Benkestok wrote: Stephano just came off as a boss, and well, X-lord as a good zerg player, but thats about it. Sports is about PR man, you should know that. Imagine if you had been the one just saying rematch, you would be the boss, and you fanbase would grow. But instead ya focused on the short term win. I understand why you did it, i just think it was the wrong call. Perception is reality, if ya wanna be a winner, appear as a winner.
Wrong. If a person doesn't have enough desire to win and willing to do everything in his power to win fairly, they can't ever become an amazing player. I remember when people bitch about how Naniwar was being disrespectful not trying he know there no possible way for him to advance. Now people are bitching about a player who take the game seriously enough to fight for a win that was fairly and rightfully his.
To me this is the clearest sign that SC2 as game is actually not interesting or appealing enough to people so they have to go witch hunting, riding bandwagons and opening threads about non-existent controversies. Pretty similar to other sports where the actual sport is largely uninteresting to certain viewers but they feed off related drama and conflicts. Sadly this is not a good perspective for SC2 as an Esport longterm-wise.
On December 22 2012 20:54 Benkestok wrote: Stephano just came off as a boss, and well, X-lord as a good zerg player, but thats about it. Sports is about PR man, you should know that. Imagine if you had been the one just saying rematch, you would be the boss, and you fanbase would grow. But instead ya focused on the short term win. I understand why you did it, i just think it was the wrong call. Perception is reality, if ya wanna be a winner, appear as a winner.
Wrong. If a person doesn't have enough desire to win and willing to do everything in his power to win fairly, they can't ever become an amazing player. I remember when people bitch about how Naniwar was being disrespectful not trying he know there no possible way for him to advance. Now people are bitching about a player who take the game seriously enough to fight for a win that was fairly and rightfully his.
To me this is the clearest sign that SC2 as game is actually not interesting or appealing enough to people so they have to go witch hunting, riding bandwagons and opening threads about non-existent controversies. Pretty similar to other sports where the actual sport is largely uninteresting to certain viewers but they feed off related drama and conflicts. Sadly this is not a good perspective for SC2 as an Esport longterm-wise.
What is this interesting sport that doesn't have drama? Not tennis, not football, not soccer, not basketball, not golf, not ...
The problem was that the players (Xlord and Stephano) were able to influence the decision makers (guys on the couch). If you are going to let TLO, Dimaga and Snute make a decision then the players should not be able to talk with them while they are making their decision.
They were not going to give the win to Xlord, but then Xlord influenced them and Stephano did not want to get involved in that, so he conceeded.
On December 22 2012 21:40 hzflank wrote: The problem was that the players (Xlord and Stephano) were able to influence the decision makers (guys on the couch). If you are going to let TLO, Dimaga and Snute make a decision then the players should not be able to talk with them while they are making their decision.
They were not going to give the win to Xlord, but then Xlord influenced them and Stephano did not want to get involved in that, so he conceeded.
I agree but i thinkl in this case it was just bad luck. At the GSTL Finals Prime vs. Startale the Coaches were also arguing with the refree and nobody gave a s...
I also want to add that TLO and Snute were still in the tournament and could potentially meet Xlord or Stephano in later rounds. So if you are going to let players decide, at least use players that are already eliminated.
On December 22 2012 20:12 Baptista wrote: During 2012 Summer Olympics a sudden accident shocked the audience. In the middle of a highly anticipated 100m sprint a meteor, 2m in radius, hit the track fully destroying it. Luckly nobody was hurt. At the time of the hit Usain Bolt was 5 meters ahead of his opponents and was sure to win. Everybody knew his lead and skill was substantial and insurmountable. As a result the judges decided not to repeat the run and award Usain the gold medal due to his early lead.
On December 22 2012 21:45 hzflank wrote: I also want to add that TLO and Snute were still in the tournament and could potentially meet Xlord or Stephano in later rounds. So if you are going to let players decide, at least use players that are already eliminated.
The decision to let TLO decide was indeed abysmal. On top of what you said he is a team member of Stephano in Proleague and a fellow-countryman of XLord. Not that I suggest that TLO would actively let bias influence his decision, but the TO has put him in a very bad place there.
XlorD's behavior in this case was completely acceptable imho.
The biggest mistake was no official stopped him from talking to the "jury", but nobody was perceptive and witty enough to realize how this was a bad idea when XlorD started explaining himself in the heat of the situation. What I mean is that it's natural for XlorD to start talking but what should have happened is that someone should have stopped him.
I don't get why people call XlorD whiny and bitchy (well maybe bitchy is appropriate in a distant sense). He didn't ask that the game was magically given to him. He didn't refuse to play because Stephano was 1min late or something. He asks that he is awarded the win that he earned (from his view). He was defending against a concession made lightly in this point (again, he shouldn't have been allowed to speak at that moment).
In my notion of "sportsmanship", it has nothing to do with it either. It would be bad sportsmanship.if he started screaming, fighting under false pretenses, or if he fought a jury decision after it was decided. Sportsmanship for me doesn't equal giving in on every oppurtunity. This devalues and doesn't respect the competetive spirit of sports. Koreans might do this often, but nobody should be forced to do the same. In important and expectedly close matches, Koreans don't give regames lightly as well.
I don't think that calling in a jury is bad in general. We had admin decisions before in esports and most of the time they were fucking awful. Not no-matter-what-decisions-like-that-are-always-bad-awful but awful-awful. See the StarTale vs Prime GSTL finals. Yes, officials rule these kind of things in real sports, but no, an unresumable game that is decided if the leading player doesn't fuck up hard multiple times is not comparable to that. People argue that it should be purely officials ruling because of how they think it should be in an ideal situation but not how things are in actuality, namely that admins are most of the times platinum players at best. They don't decide if a ball has crossed a line, if the time has run out or not, or if a player showed unsportsmanlike behavior, but something they cannot judge well - namely, what would be the expected outcome of the game.
In my opinion, the involved players should be able to back off from their position in at any time during the decision taking, but the decision taking process should not depend on it. And the notion of a jury consisting of other players is acceptable. I don't think a jury decision is the best solution for this but it's not a bad idea. However, Dimaga was uncomfortable on casting a vote. What I think would have been better is that the jury should just have been counselling the admins behind closed doors instead, leaving the ultimate decision to the admins.
What I wrote in the LR thread as well is that in a pure admin decision, giving a win to XlorD would have created far, far more drama. TaKe is XlorD's discoverer and mentor, the whole tournament is sponsored by XMG. And various people have the perception that Germans are always scheming towards the favor of their countrymen. Giving XlorD a win by pure admin decision is completely off the table because of these circumstances alone which would make a unfair vote.
Snute's BO5 idea was probably the best (but it should not be taken too lightly). What could have happened as well is that they delay the decision and play out the third map to see if the decision does even matter (this has strong implications on players' mindset though).
Oh and let's hope these things are remedied in HotS with the resume function.
On December 22 2012 22:00 Nyarly wrote: Isn't this a non issue ?
I think so. This comes up over and over (in BW too, remember power outage?) and when the situation arises, there is no satisfying solution. It wasn't handled optimally, but it's over, Stephano is still in and Take said there will be procedures in place next time. Not to mention resume from replay will solve it once and for all from march onwards. Bygones.
On December 22 2012 20:08 Prox wrote: Next time Stephano meets Xlord in a tournament again he should pull his own networkplug in the first 10 seconds of the game. From there enforce the rules of: I'm 66:33 favorite in this game (since all the admins thought at least so), so it's a clear win for me. Do that 2 times in a BO3. <1min win.
I've seen some retarded post in my life, and this is definitely top 10. A replay if the game is not 100% win is a pretty dumb rule also. Using these logic and argument. Any time a player find themselves making a bad judgement call such as getting cheesed or having a failed cheese. They can simply "pull the plug" and demand a regame.
The Xlord have a big enough advantage as it is so that if the game proceed as it normally would, Xlord would be the winner. Sure, there could be a ling run by, or someone taken a wrench to Xlord knee, but that still doesn't change the fact that he was heavily favored to win at the time of the disconnect. If I was the ref, I would of given Xlord the win but offer him the option of a regame if he want to be a good sport about it. Either way, the game was advantageous enough right before the disconnect for Xlord that the decision for a regame should be left to him.
thats imo a really douchy way to let the player become the bad guy, if the win was rightfully his, he should have to choose between coming off as a good guy for the community (people would flame him if he choose to take the victory) OR claim something that is rightfully (imo) his.
Anyways I cant believe that people are making such a big deal out of this, to anyone who has any kind of sense whatsoever when it comes to analyzing and predicting whats going to happen, it was a CLEAR win for xlord.
On December 22 2012 22:57 asdf3455 wrote: You had like 80% chance to win that game and you decided to steal Stephano's 20% chance to win by acting like a child.
You might consider not calling other people a child, when you look at what text you're producing.
Everything is said here, let this thread die now and have fun with HSC Day 4
Wait, so Xlord shit his pants to get a default win after a disconnection? And we're somehow okay with it? What if during the GSTL drop one of the players got up and started shitting himself when they called a regame? He would have been DQ'd is what. But somehow, when it's a foreigner, we say "Oh, okay. That's fine. Stephano was the bigger man and refused to act unprofessionally, so we're going to assume that everything is okay with the situation."
No. Just because Stephano didn't stoop down to Xlord's level doesn't mean that Stephano is either okay with what happened or that what Xlord did is okay. All that means is that Stephano has a fucking 100,000 dollar contract to worry about, and Xlord had....a 2-0 over Stephano to worry about.
I'm all for Alex Garfield barring EG players from the next HSC. Whenever you have admins, but you let a three pros decide in an effort to promote fairness, but then you let one of the players pitch an epic shit fit to sway them, you don't know what you're doing. That was at least two times (not using admins, letting Xlord weigh in) where Take failed Stephano. And we're supposed to just say okay because Stephano advanced?
Please. If this happened at an MLG where Idra/Demuslim DC'd and Idra pitched a fit until he got the win from the admins these boards would call for no less than Sundance to fire whichever admin let it happen. I'm not calling for that from Take, far from it, I'm just calling for people to hold tournaments to the same level of "okay, you fucked up."
I think Xlord had the game 85-95%. With Stephano agreeing to a defwin I think everything is ok. However it would definately have been better to decide it of stream and without the players in question nearby.
It's a bad situation for everyone involved and nobodies fault really. We should just move on since Take already said that he will try to handle future situations like this one in a better way. There is nothing more to this. HSC is such a great event and should have enough credit built up that we as a community shouldn't whine and bitch about every mistake. Xlord is a great character to have in Esports and I will continue to root for him.
On December 22 2012 20:45 Shade_CsT wrote: Resume from Replay feature will save eSports in situation like this one.
Would have been truly awesome because you then you could get a bronze player to resume vs Stephano and let the outcome decide the controversy.
On December 22 2012 11:37 casualman wrote: No one cares. The admin made a judgment that both players can accept. The viewer's opinion--the opinion of every person in this thread, save take, xlord, and stephano--doesn't matter. There really is no reason to create this thread.
It seems a lot of viewers care. And if a lot of viewers care, then the sponsors care. And if the sponsors care, everyone cares. Glad I could clear this up for you.
Xlord cud have gain a huge amount of fan by his performance but he rly acted like a douche and it wasnt professional at all.
Everyone know this should be a regame in any other official league. They should at least keep the decision between Admin or ppl outside the game, they made a decision and Xlord just cry for a freewin ?
He shoudnt be able to influence the decision, That's retarded.
If we disregard the fact, he did a great run at homestory cup, So congratz to him. but its sad, even if he win the tournament now, a lot of PPL (me included) won't give a shit. he gain a lot of haters that day
On December 22 2012 19:05 aTnClouD wrote: I got eye cancer and several brain metastasis reading the angry posts on this thread. Good that you can throw your frustration here, hope you guys are better people in real life.
I can't agree more. Holy fuck people spewing out nonsense these days.
That is not a decided game, I have to say. It should most definitely have been a regame. To say that it was 90-95% decided is plain wrong. I rate the advantage of XlorD as being in the 65-70% range.
It is very hard being the aggressor in ZvZ. We've seen time and time again how advantages can easily be given away through over-extensions. In this situation, XlorD has a 22 food advantage (8 from drones; 189 vs 167), a 700 mineral advantage, both are on three bases mining bases (XlorD will be able to take his 4th faster). Stephano has 2-2 versus the 2-0 of XlorD. If XlorD fights immediately, he will be taking a fight down in army-supply at the area of fighting (Part of his army is coming across the map, part of his army is at stephano's fourth) and 10 hydras down.
It is certainly not obvious that he would win that fight. How many times have we seen Stephano taking great engagements?
If XlorD takes out the fourth, Stephano can turtle, produce infestors (tech is ready) and retake his fourth. Then we would be in "let's get to hive" area, and it is very much up in the air who wins.
The game should certainly not have been given to XlorD. I even doubt whether Snute's solution of giving XlorD the map and changing into a bo5 would have been fair to Stephano. Stephano acted kindly to the agitated XlorD and the tournament, but it was a sacrifice he should never have been asked to make.
On December 22 2012 22:57 asdf3455 wrote: You had like 80% chance to win that game and you decided to steal Stephano's 20% chance to win by acting like a child.
You had like 80% chance to not post something ridiculous and you decided to take your 20% chance to embarass yourself by acting like a child.
On December 22 2012 22:57 asdf3455 wrote: You had like 80% chance to win that game and you decided to steal Stephano's 20% chance to win by acting like a child.
Ok, then by your number, regame will steal Xlord's 30%(80%-50%) chance to win.
On December 22 2012 19:05 aTnClouD wrote: I got eye cancer and several brain metastasis reading the angry posts on this thread. Good that you can throw your frustration here, hope you guys are better people in real life.
Funny how the post of the guy actually there gets completely ignored because it points out the idiocy in this thread. I guess completely blow things out of proportion is fine if it makes sure you can use your beloved pitchforks.
Well you just wanted to take the win eventhough you knew that lead in the game doesnt really mean a free win. You didnt deserve the free win, the bo5 would have been fair. So yes, you are seen as bad mannered, because thats what you did, sorry but this is how it is.
On December 23 2012 00:38 Kompicek wrote: Well you just wanted to take the win eventhough you knew that lead in the game doesnt really mean a free win. You didnt deserve the free win, the bo5 would have been fair. So yes, you are seen as bad mannered, because thats what you did, sorry but this is how it is.
Please use words appropriately. A "free win" is when your opponent forfeits or just gets run over. A "free win" is NOT when you play the game, gather an advantage, and then there's a disconnect while you have that advantage.
On December 22 2012 23:01 Mauldo wrote: Wait, so Xlord shit his pants to get a default win after a disconnection? And we're somehow okay with it? What if during the GSTL drop one of the players got up and started shitting himself when they called a regame? He would have been DQ'd is what. But somehow, when it's a foreigner, we say "Oh, okay. That's fine. Stephano was the bigger man and refused to act unprofessionally, so we're going to assume that everything is okay with the situation."
No. Just because Stephano didn't stoop down to Xlord's level doesn't mean that Stephano is either okay with what happened or that what Xlord did is okay. All that means is that Stephano has a fucking 100,000 dollar contract to worry about, and Xlord had....a 2-0 over Stephano to worry about.
I'm all for Alex Garfield barring EG players from the next HSC. Whenever you have admins, but you let a three pros decide in an effort to promote fairness, but then you let one of the players pitch an epic shit fit to sway them, you don't know what you're doing. That was at least two times (not using admins, letting Xlord weigh in) where Take failed Stephano. And we're supposed to just say okay because Stephano advanced?
Please. If this happened at an MLG where Idra/Demuslim DC'd and Idra pitched a fit until he got the win from the admins these boards would call for no less than Sundance to fire whichever admin let it happen. I'm not calling for that from Take, far from it, I'm just calling for people to hold tournaments to the same level of "okay, you fucked up."
Take already admitted he fucked up, and everybody agrees it wasn't all fine. What do you want? You're free to hate xlord now, but do you think every player who argues with a referee should be disqualified? Would that apply to conventional sports as well?
There is no optimal solution to half-won games crashing. You award the win, you rob the disadvantaged player of his 20% chance; you replay the match, you rob the leading player of his lead, and possibly his strategy which now has been revealed.
I'm not sure it was that much of an advantage for Xlord at all. Supplies were similar and in this game, one engagement can tip the battle into anyone's favor.
Sure Xlord had his 4th coming up, but he wouldn't have mined enough gas for it to show up as a huge advantage yet. If Stephano took the won the battle, he could've easily double expanded and be in a better position. Also, he's playing against Stephano, so it's very hard to say that you're going to outposition 100% of the time and engage better.
Some really bad manner posts here, you would think the posters were the ones in the tournament! It's these guys job to get the win, this merely shows that they take it seriously. Hell if it was me I would do the same as xlord. Not one person here can say otherwise, honestly.
Anyway, this should just be like rugby. Doesn't matter what your opinion is, all that matters is when the ref says happened. When the admins say purple is red, well.... purple is red
On December 22 2012 23:01 Mauldo wrote: Wait, so Xlord shit his pants to get a default win after a disconnection? And we're somehow okay with it? What if during the GSTL drop one of the players got up and started shitting himself when they called a regame? He would have been DQ'd is what. But somehow, when it's a foreigner, we say "Oh, okay. That's fine. Stephano was the bigger man and refused to act unprofessionally, so we're going to assume that everything is okay with the situation."
No. Just because Stephano didn't stoop down to Xlord's level doesn't mean that Stephano is either okay with what happened or that what Xlord did is okay. All that means is that Stephano has a fucking 100,000 dollar contract to worry about, and Xlord had....a 2-0 over Stephano to worry about.
I'm all for Alex Garfield barring EG players from the next HSC. Whenever you have admins, but you let a three pros decide in an effort to promote fairness, but then you let one of the players pitch an epic shit fit to sway them, you don't know what you're doing. That was at least two times (not using admins, letting Xlord weigh in) where Take failed Stephano. And we're supposed to just say okay because Stephano advanced?
Please. If this happened at an MLG where Idra/Demuslim DC'd and Idra pitched a fit until he got the win from the admins these boards would call for no less than Sundance to fire whichever admin let it happen. I'm not calling for that from Take, far from it, I'm just calling for people to hold tournaments to the same level of "okay, you fucked up."
People like you is what's wrong with the internet. And killing e-sports, but that's another story.
That game should not have been a freewin. It also sucks if it is a regame because Xlord had the advantage. It does not look like Xlord was going to commit to a direct attack right then and there and Stephano looked like he was about to start massing infestors which he had the bank to do so. Xlord did not have the ability to increase his army size just yet due to oversupply and lack of gas.
Xlord would have had 2 primary advantages. Higher worker count and just starting a new base while Stephano was 100% going to lose his. Stephano had an upgrade advantage and his army was more concentrated because Xlord had part of his army killing an expansion. If Xlord commits to battle he is also in a bad position because Stephano can flank.
I would wager Xlord had 90% chance to win the game if he made no mistakes based on the knowledge that he had.
1. A shitty disconnect happened (WE WANT LAN!!!). 2. XLord reacted emotionally, which is understandable. 3. HSC did their job really poorly, and swayed to the emotion. 4. Stefano advanced anyways, and everyone involved apologized
This is hardly the worst thing to happen to esports, or to Stefano, in the last week... really worth a **** storm?
I am really disappointed that the game had to end like this (connection somehow broke) and I am sad aswell, since now I seem like a bad mannered player.
I just don't get why you declined a BO5 with 2:0 lead. A.) More exposure for you. B.) Would actually have been the mannered thing to do, as you admit yourself, games have been won from positions like this.
I am happy to see stephano making it out of the group and I would like to face him again while HSC VI and I appreciate his courage, to agree to the Win as it stands.
So you are happy because people not gonna be as mad? Or because you really believe he deserved a regame?. If the later, then poor MMA. I personally and think most of us would prefer an apology like: Sorry, I got very emotional. Not that half ass justification.
You are just breaking through in sc2 and stephano really fast agreed to accept the loss, so I think it is ok to cut you some slack. If you want to be a mannered player, manner up. Thats it, gl in the rest of the tourney.
On December 22 2012 20:29 Meatex wrote: people only hating on xlord cause he isn't well know
It's a little toooo obvious who the Stephano fans are... -------------------------------- Xlord was clearly upset. He played better that game, he was definitely ahead. Barring any major herp-derps he was on the path of victory. BUT it was not such a big lead that it was a "free win"...
Could Xlord have handled the situation better? Definitely Was he wrong for feeling he had a favorable enough position to have the win? not really, it's easy to pull the old sportsmanship/esports card when it's not YOUR tournament on trial
Was there such a big fire, when Stephano said Babyknight wasn't the type of player you need to practice for? ------------------------------- The disconnect put everyone in a bad situation. Emotions were stirred. Admins were indecisive. Controversy ensues. Posts/tweets heard around the interwebs. Much to my dismay, this is the stuff promoters/producers have wet dreams about. Yes, folks the drama, aka the "Storyline"...
The next tournament: "XLord vs Stephano II" Rumble in the Jungle!
Will Xlord kick Stephanos dog? will Stephano give a shit? Tune in next week for the exciting... well you get the idea...
I don't really care one way or another. Situation resolved well. I gained a little respect for Steph and lost some for XlorD. You come out and say your going to crush a guy, it's in bad taste to take a free win. If you really thought you were the better player, you should not have had a problem playing another game.
XlorD basically showed he's slightly more talk then action. Steph did the opposite.
On December 22 2012 23:01 Mauldo wrote: Wait, so Xlord shit his pants to get a default win after a disconnection? And we're somehow okay with it? What if during the GSTL drop one of the players got up and started shitting himself when they called a regame? He would have been DQ'd is what. But somehow, when it's a foreigner, we say "Oh, okay. That's fine. Stephano was the bigger man and refused to act unprofessionally, so we're going to assume that everything is okay with the situation."
No. Just because Stephano didn't stoop down to Xlord's level doesn't mean that Stephano is either okay with what happened or that what Xlord did is okay. All that means is that Stephano has a fucking 100,000 dollar contract to worry about, and Xlord had....a 2-0 over Stephano to worry about.
I'm all for Alex Garfield barring EG players from the next HSC. Whenever you have admins, but you let a three pros decide in an effort to promote fairness, but then you let one of the players pitch an epic shit fit to sway them, you don't know what you're doing. That was at least two times (not using admins, letting Xlord weigh in) where Take failed Stephano. And we're supposed to just say okay because Stephano advanced?
Please. If this happened at an MLG where Idra/Demuslim DC'd and Idra pitched a fit until he got the win from the admins these boards would call for no less than Sundance to fire whichever admin let it happen. I'm not calling for that from Take, far from it, I'm just calling for people to hold tournaments to the same level of "okay, you fucked up."
lol @ how outraged you are. I guess forum arguments are fun huh? The fucking guy who lost cares less than you. One game in HSC VI group stage is not that important bro
On December 24 2012 05:10 derpface wrote: Such a fail.
Not from XlorD, Stephano or the Admins or Take for that matter.
But from the Stephano lover boiz who whine so hard. I mean cmon it was handled poorly but it was still fair wasnt it?
Pretty sure no one on either side agrees a free win was fair
It wasnt fair but instead of make alot of drama of it just make it a win for XlorD since its the most appropiate. Lets say that its 70% ok to make it a win for XlorD there. Ofcourse you would go with that since its the best solution even if its not maximum "fair" for all parts.
On December 24 2012 05:10 derpface wrote: Such a fail.
Not from XlorD, Stephano or the Admins or Take for that matter.
But from the Stephano lover boiz who whine so hard. I mean cmon it was handled poorly but it was still fair wasnt it?
Pretty sure no one on either side agrees a free win was fair
It wasnt fair but instead of make alot of drama of it just make it a win for XlorD since its the most appropiate. Lets say that its 70% ok to make it a win for XlorD there. Ofcourse you would go with that since its the best solution even if its not maximum "fair" for all parts.
On December 24 2012 05:10 derpface wrote: Such a fail.
Not from XlorD, Stephano or the Admins or Take for that matter.
But from the Stephano lover boiz who whine so hard. I mean cmon it was handled poorly but it was still fair wasnt it?
Pretty sure no one on either side agrees a free win was fair
It wasnt fair but instead of make alot of drama of it just make it a win for XlorD since its the most appropiate. Lets say that its 70% ok to make it a win for XlorD there. Ofcourse you would go with that since its the best solution even if its not maximum "fair" for all parts.
Well all this shows, like every single time we have a disc, is that blizzard doesn't give a shit, because otherwise we'd have fucking lan at tournaments. This always sucks, and there are only 2 choices when a disc happen, and this time they didn't go for the regame, big fucking deal, until blizzard steps it up and gives us what every starcraft 2 tournament ever should have had, shit like this will keep happening.
No need to fuck with xlord though, he was a total unknown to me before this weekend, but throughout hsc I have really started to like him.
On December 24 2012 08:20 Lorch wrote: Well all this shows, like every single time we have a disc, is that blizzard doesn't give a shit, because otherwise we'd have fucking lan at tournaments. This always sucks, and there are only 2 choices when a disc happen, and this time they didn't go for the regame, big fucking deal, until blizzard steps it up and gives us what every starcraft 2 tournament ever should have had, shit like this will keep happening.
No need to fuck with xlord though, he was a total unknown to me before this weekend, but throughout hsc I have really started to like him.
you are awared, like most of this thread , that people are mostly pissed about xlord agresssive behavior towards admin or judges *casting players in same tournament as him lol * trying to persuade them. that it worked or not is not the poin.t Just the fact that he simply did it,Altough im pretty indifferent sbout stephano ,xlord was showed the perfect way to act by remaining at a distance and silently .
i couldnt care less about the rematch or not,to me its almost irrelevant compared to what he did during the deliberation
On December 22 2012 20:12 Baptista wrote: During 2012 Summer Olympics a sudden accident shocked the audience. In the middle of a highly anticipated 100m sprint a meteor, 2m in radius, hit the track fully destroying it. Luckly nobody was hurt. At the time of the hit Usain Bolt was 5 meters ahead of his opponents and was sure to win. Everybody knew his lead and skill was substantial and insurmountable. As a result the judges decided not to repeat the run and award Usain the gold medal due to his early lead.
On December 22 2012 22:57 asdf3455 wrote: You had like 80% chance to win that game and you decided to steal Stephano's 20% chance to win by acting like a child.
You might consider not calling other people a child, when you look at what text you're producing.
Everything is said here, let this thread die now and have fun with HSC Day 4
I produce text full of truth and intelligence;) He had like XX% chance to win that game and decided to steal Stephano's XX% chance to win by acting like a child, despite being offered 2-0 lead in best of 5 which would mean that if they are equally good he wins series 87,5% of time. He should acknowledge that he stole this series and apologize.
EPT
