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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On December 08 2012 06:45 sc14s wrote: its an organization that i really dont like and never have. why would i give them anything? How have you given them anything unless you are a corporate sponsor or paid real money for their products? Seems to me you are the one that takes for granted their services over the past... decade. | ||
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felisconcolori
United States6168 Posts
On December 08 2012 07:06 Rekrul wrote: aka they weren't planning an english cast as you originally posted but after seeing your post and the community reaction decided to do one and make you look bad in the process if they were really planning it they would have already had casters and not need you, or told you in advance kespa so transparent lol Much better and more aptly put than I did, and I think you've got it. Of course, I think they weren't planning an English cast so much as they were planning that OGN would do the English cast for them, because of course how could they not? | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On December 08 2012 07:23 Prplppleatr wrote: It's jumping the gun when it's a day or two before said event? really?...sounds like waiting closer to the last minute than to jumping the gun. Also, since kespa has no casters lined up and Doa will be casting it, it doesn't seem like kespa had any actually plans to do one before his post. (Ie. if they really were going to have a cast but hadn't said anything you would think they would be prepared with something like, lets say, casters...they're a little important to a cast, you know. you are correct: day one or two before the event is not jumping the gun, day9 may have been though. | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
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Taipoka
Brazil1224 Posts
On December 08 2012 07:35 Salazarz wrote: I don't get your logic, people. If KeSPA doesn't care about foreign audience and wasn't concerned with providing an English cast, why would some nerds posting angry rage on Teamliquid suddenly make them change their minds? How does that make any sense at all... As posted before you. They did it just to make Doa looks bad to foreign audience. Those who they don´t care about. This because they saw the reaction of the foreign audience they don´t care about. So in the end, they are spending money (Stream) on the people they don´t care about, instead of letting OGN do this. Makes sense. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On December 08 2012 05:03 felisconcolori wrote: 1) Nitpicking, no. A major corporation has a strong profit motive driven by a product for sale. An NGO may have a profit motive, but it is often not the primary motive behind their actions. KeSPA as an NGO has as a primary motive that is not related to profit, but to their stated purpose. (Which is here.) They also have a stance (possibly because of their NGO status) that KeSPA is, should be, and must be, the sole driving and guiding force in their industry. Their history consists in part of strong arm tactics intended to cause other organizations to join with them, subject to their decisions. That there is a negotiation to create a consortium (of which, I have no doubt KeSPA will head) that can impact the PL broadcast is a little telling here. They already have a relationship with IEG and OGN. Why is this consortium negotiation's status affecting the English broadcast? What about that negotiation touches on or is causing OGN to not provide English broadcast services to someone already a partner? 2) Again, reading comprehension. The consortium negotiations are NOT solely for the specific purpose of international broadcast services. Otherwise, they would have stated it in those terms. They instead said, specifically, "By bundling the Starleague and Proleague, the goal was to prevent cannibalization of the market between the two, and create synergy to stabilize international broadcast services." They are creating a single package in which OSL and PL are, more or less, a solo tournament and a team league, packaged and delivered together. They are reducing competition between OSL and PL, gaining PL something which apparently they didn't have (an English broadcast ability) and had little preparation for, and are creating a relationship far closer than their past partnerships. What about international broadcast services requires stabilization from OGN? They already have the capability and demonstrated ability. KeSPA doesn't. Neither does IEG. What actually needs to be stabilized? Except that it will reduce any pressure on IEG/KeSPA due to a lack of such ability, and eliminate the need for OGN and IEG/KeSPA to compete against each other in a global audience. I think I can sum up your point quite succinctly - "Guys, KeSPA is a lovely organization and DoA messed up. KeSPA would not do the kinds of things people are saying they do, and they aren't being mean to DoA for causing a fuss." Given that I expect KeSPA to have reasonably decent translators on staff, I imagine the word choice in their statement is deliberate even if they don't wholly understand the connotations connected. From a historical perspective, I think that it's quite possible for KeSPA to be engaging in shenanigans, that there was an intent to respond very harshly towards DoA. They claim DoA has apologized - something DoA has stated quite firmly he has not done. Yes, DoA might have been incorrect, but be realistic - KeSPA's own actions in the past make it entirely too believable that they are continuing in this tradition to the future. 1) that's a cool distinction but it doesn't refute my point about people having a tendency to assume big organizations are guilty until proven innocent. They will do so regardless of whether the motive they've dreamed up is profit-based or a desire to strong arm and control an industry. Both of those types of motives give people ammo to concoct conspiracy theories about big organizations. 2) Even if we assume that international broadcasts are only one component of the negotiations (which I question because the placement in the op of the phrase "the year international broadcasts began" and the placing if "international broadcast service" both at the beginning and end of the paragtaph), you still aren't refuting my point because you're admitting that negotiations are going on. Do you agree with me that doa was incorrect in claiming negotiations had ended? That was my point in posting in this thread. Other posters are failing to comprehend that doa's and Kespa's statements were different on the facts. I still don't get why you haven't addressed the crux of my point and instead are going on tangents that ramble a bit and don't get their point across very clearly. You did say "yes, DoA might have been incorrect" but it was in the middle of a meandering paragraph the point of which wasn't very clear. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
take fault in kespa's late preparations but thats the only fault i see in this "incident". feels to me all this should have been taken care of without public knowledge since it doesnt need to be, perhaps it was their intention until doa's post that made it public. with that said, i think its arrogant and double standard-like to accuse kespa of trying to use doa as an escape goat...when doa's post was just about losing his position of casting sc2 for ogn. doa's post was about OnGameNet not casting in english, NOT kespa canceling english cast. the above fact some how changed to "proleague will not have english cast" for some reason and people went apeshit as for kespa run event/cast vs ogn run event/cast, no one, absolutely no one here should have a say and its totally up to those two company/organization. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
On December 08 2012 08:28 jinorazi wrote: i thought english cast process was in the works outside ogn before doa's post. why would this action automatically deduct into the idea that doa's post changed their position? take fault in kespa's late preparations but thats the only fault i see in this "incident". feels to me all this should have been taken care of without public knowledge since it doesnt need to be, perhaps it was their intention until doa's post that made it public. Because people like believing in a foreigner hero that sticks it to the evil Korean organization. | ||
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Jacmert
Canada1709 Posts
On December 08 2012 08:28 jinorazi wrote: doa's post was about OnGameNet not casting in english, NOT kespa canceling english cast. the above fact some how changed to "proleague will not have english cast" for some reason and people went apeshit This ^^ I'm starting to form the opinion that: a) Kespa wanted to do their own English cast via IEG, not OGN b) They shut OGN out from the English cast (because of (a)) c) They weren't ready to roll out their English broadcast via IEG yet (perhaps they were planning on providing it "soon" after Proleague starts, once they were ready) d) Their hand was forced by DoA's post because, ultimately, they do want English/foreign viewers and so they decided they had to provide something from Day 1 of Proleague, lest give extra weight to DoA's report In summary: Kespa is still reneging/breaking-off on their agreement with OGN to let them do the English cast, but it's evident that they really weren't ready yet with their own IEG solution but are scrambling to throw something together: as evidenced by the fact that they are getting DoA and Montecristo, the OGN casters, to do the Day 1 casting. Is that not RIDICULOUSLY ironic? Kespa told OGN, "no, your months of preparing for the English cast is now going to be thrown away. We/IEG will do the English cast," followed by, "sorry, we aren't ready yet. Can we borrow your OGN casters? Including DoA, who we just attempted to disgrace?" | ||
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Icekommander
Canada483 Posts
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MountainDewJunkie
United States10346 Posts
Casting smoothly with 2 people is tough, let alone 3. OGN and MSL were great at that with korean casters, but letting Kespa handpick English casters... I have my doubts. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On December 08 2012 09:17 MountainDewJunkie wrote: I'm worried who these casters will be. Kespa never had the most perfect grasp on foreigner tastes, so I'm thinking we might see a really bizarre and out of sync team. Casting smoothly with 2 people is tough, let alone 3. OGN and MSL were great at that with korean casters, but letting Kespa handpick English casters... I have my doubts. best route: recruit the best translator/interpreter/typist the country has to offer per caster and have them subtitle the event live. lol | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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Mauldo
United States750 Posts
On December 08 2012 07:26 felisconcolori wrote: Much better and more aptly put than I did, and I think you've got it. Of course, I think they weren't planning an English cast so much as they were planning that OGN would do the English cast for them, because of course how could they not? Called it about ten pages ago, but yeah. It's kinda obvious that they made DoA fall on his sword. They figured they could get away without an English broadcast, but realized they couldn't, so they made sacrificed Doa to save face. Nice. | ||
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sc14s
United States5052 Posts
On December 08 2012 07:25 Caihead wrote: How have you given them anything unless you are a corporate sponsor or paid real money for their products? Seems to me you are the one that takes for granted their services over the past... decade. by "give them anything" i meant as in be positive about the decisions they made.. nothing to do with money *whoosh* like when you say "give someone the benefit of the doubt" you are basically taking their word for it.. which im not. | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On December 08 2012 09:35 sc14s wrote: by "give them anything" i meant as in be positive about the decisions they made.. nothing to do with money *whoosh* like when you say "give someone the benefit of the doubt" you are basically taking their word for it.. which im not. It's a pretty big inference to draw from "why would i give them anything" to "why would i give them the benefit of the doubt", I can't read your mind and the dialogue doesn't suggest that was what you were talking about. | ||
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sc14s
United States5052 Posts
On December 08 2012 09:48 Caihead wrote: It's a pretty big inference to draw from "why would i give them anything" to "why would i give them the benefit of the doubt", I can't read your mind and the dialogue doesn't suggest that was what you were talking about. it also doesnt suggest anything about money.. | ||
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AceOfCakez
United States72 Posts
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felisconcolori
United States6168 Posts
On December 08 2012 07:49 Doodsmack wrote: 1) that's a cool distinction but it doesn't refute my point about people having a tendency to assume big organizations are guilty until proven innocent. They will do so regardless of whether the motive they've dreamed up is profit-based or a desire to strong arm and control an industry. Both of those types of motives give people ammo to concoct conspiracy theories about big organizations. 2) Even if we assume that international broadcasts are only one component of the negotiations (which I question because the placement in the op of the phrase "the year international broadcasts began" and the placing if "international broadcast service" both at the beginning and end of the paragtaph), you still aren't refuting my point because you're admitting that negotiations are going on. Do you agree with me that doa was incorrect in claiming negotiations had ended? That was my point in posting in this thread. Other posters are failing to comprehend that doa's and Kespa's statements were different on the facts. I still don't get why you haven't addressed the crux of my point and instead are going on tangents that ramble a bit and don't get their point across very clearly. You did say "yes, DoA might have been incorrect" but it was in the middle of a meandering paragraph the point of which wasn't very clear. 1) It's not a conspiracy theory if it's a pattern of historic behavior that has remained unchanged. This is not about shady large organizations doing things being adjudged guilty until proven innocent. There is no guilty or innocent here. This is a specific organization with a documented track history of making decisions and taking actions that are similar. The motive is fairly important. You have no evidence to back up your claim that common practice is to assume large organizations are guilty - otherwise, I would be off right now busy ripping into the Red Cross for slowing down aid operations in NYC in order to boost their image. To actually refute your theory, however, research + Show Spoiler + such as, but not limited to this 2) The simple, TL; dr version of refutation - DoA and KeSPA's statements were different on facts. Which one of them outright lied about the actions of the other, from a very high level, versus the one that was probably not entirely right about everything as one of a few employees that does not speak the language the company does business with? What I'm starting to see is that your entire point is "DoA was wrong" and possibly "DoA wanted to hurt KeSPA". Would you agree with that? Because if the entirety of your discussion is focused on "DoA" is a bad man, we're having two different discussions. | ||
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Severian
Australia2052 Posts
On December 07 2012 23:47 Ammanas wrote: It amazes me, how people can say things like "without Doa's post we probably wouldn't have english stream at all" when the ORIGINAL ISSUE was that Kespa wanted to have ENGLISH ONLY stream with FREE HD and VODs.... imo there was a little bit of struggle because OGN didn't want to lose money from paid HD and VODs. That's understandable. Kespa wants to reach out to foreign viewers and they don't want to have fee based stream. That's also understandable. There is no "enemy". In the end, it actually worked for the best for us - foreign viewers. We will get FREE HD and VODs for ALL Proleague matches. Weekends will probably still be OGN feed anyway. The only problem I see here is that we are discovering this now, few hours before the PL actually starts. I wish some people would just stop looking for drama, shut up and enjoy the games -.- In case anyone was wondering, this was indeed a load of bullshit. The stream is 360p unless you pay $5. You can currently access VODs for free but the description on the subscribe popup says that subscription gets you access to "exclusive twitch archives", so that may be a mistake. I don't even remember reading anything about free HD anywhere. It's amazing what people come up with. | ||
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