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On December 30 2012 00:07 sCCrooked wrote:
Pretty incredible how many whiners are stating the same old "Well you have to consider maps and the meta of the time". What, we're still not changing map designs and the meta? I thought the game was still evolving. My bad.
This was supposed to be sarcasm and its laughable how many are referencing it like it was some rally to their anti-zerg cause.
See I don't get that. I think this was not sarcasm at all, but a glimpse into the nature of TvZ and the inherent problems in the MU for Terran.
I think Blizzard will have a lot of trouble with HotS unless they do something with Terran. Otherwise what appeal will there be for a two-race game.
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lol still going on? tell you something:
Zerg is imba as any race at some point, due to? Infestors..
I was Z before the issue and switched to T, same league, same level..
Watch Day9 daily, and think to yourself if in an rts game you should actually think some.
Pros find it a bit difficult because they tend to stick with the "metagame" and what everybody else does, like gee helion banshee is not as effectice, let me keep doing it and complaint..
I have no problem with infestors (much less than HT) try to not let the Z macro for 20 minutes, apply pressure, snipe the pit and such, OMG it actually work..GG
And if not still happy dont play the game, Blizzard can't keep fixing your laziness.
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On December 30 2012 15:17 Gendo wrote:
lol still going on? tell you something:
Zerg is imba as any race at some point, due to? Infestors..
I was Z before the issue and switched to T, same league, same level..
Watch Day9 daily, and think to yourself if in an rts game you should actually think some.
Pros find it a bit difficult because they tend to stick with the "metagame" and what everybody else does, like gee helion banshee is not as effectice, let me keep doing it and complaint..
I have no problem with infestors (much less than HT) try to not let the Z macro for 20 minutes, apply pressure, snipe the pit and such, OMG it actually work..GG
And if not still happy dont play the game, Blizzard can't keep fixing your laziness.
I completely agree. All Terran players little dumb shit nubs who all live in caves and have trouble using their keyboards. omg it all makes so much FUCKING sense. Fucking terran nub cheezer shits are just subhumans. /sarcasm
You don't even try to address the issues that a lot of Terran players are having. Its fine to tell people to stop complaining, IF you have a valid solution to the problem. We all wish "sniping the infestor pit" was that easy to win the game. Unfortunately, any competent zerg player is able to shut that down very easily due to overlord spread and map awareness. Even if not, the substantial core of the zerg army that will face Bio (being the only Terran force that can easily snipe tech structures) is zerglings, focusing down the infestor pit is a tactic that simply doesn't work due to the speed of the zergling army and the nature of zerg structure placement means that the infestor pit will always be in a different location every game.
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On December 30 2012 15:29 mudkipkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 15:17 Gendo wrote:
lol still going on? tell you something:
Zerg is imba as any race at some point, due to? Infestors..
I was Z before the issue and switched to T, same league, same level..
Watch Day9 daily, and think to yourself if in an rts game you should actually think some.
Pros find it a bit difficult because they tend to stick with the "metagame" and what everybody else does, like gee helion banshee is not as effectice, let me keep doing it and complaint..
I have no problem with infestors (much less than HT) try to not let the Z macro for 20 minutes, apply pressure, snipe the pit and such, OMG it actually work..GG
And if not still happy dont play the game, Blizzard can't keep fixing your laziness. I completely agree. All Terran players little dumb shit nubs who all live in caves and have trouble using their keyboards. omg it all makes so much FUCKING sense. Fucking terran nub cheezer shits are just subhumans. /sarcasm You don't even try to address the issues that a lot of Terran players are having. Its fine to tell people to stop complaining, IF you have a valid solution to the problem. We all wish "sniping the infestor pit" was that easy to win the game. Unfortunately, any competent zerg player is able to shut that down very easily due to overlord spread and map awareness. Even if not, the substantial core of the zerg army that will face Bio (being the only Terran force that can easily snipe tech structures) is zerglings, focusing down the infestor pit is a tactic that simply doesn't work due to the speed of the zergling army and the nature of zerg structure placement means that the infestor pit will always be in a different location every game.
I can't tell exactly how, since i was Z i enjoy playing T a bit more "freestyle" i personally open up helion banshee, stay on it a bit longer (as in more than one) with the minerals i take the 3rd if i see tons of lings i'll add another fac for blue flame (always usefull anyways and 2 fac for tanks later on), bait roach and/or mutas while i've made tons of racks and upgrades, drop every single Z base (you should be 3v3 base) and from there Z will crumble and no chance to get any significant amount of Infestors since you'll see them popping out and could snipe them asap, keep up macro and over run them
Or mix in Ghosts as in TvP, since are essential there why not use them in TvZ (kind of same dynamic).
Or check out Day9 daily with Polt build, that works pretty well.
Or Marauders/hellion allin
Or just be aggressive...
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On December 30 2012 15:46 Gendo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 15:29 mudkipkilla wrote:On December 30 2012 15:17 Gendo wrote:
lol still going on? tell you something:
Zerg is imba as any race at some point, due to? Infestors..
I was Z before the issue and switched to T, same league, same level..
Watch Day9 daily, and think to yourself if in an rts game you should actually think some.
Pros find it a bit difficult because they tend to stick with the "metagame" and what everybody else does, like gee helion banshee is not as effectice, let me keep doing it and complaint..
I have no problem with infestors (much less than HT) try to not let the Z macro for 20 minutes, apply pressure, snipe the pit and such, OMG it actually work..GG
And if not still happy dont play the game, Blizzard can't keep fixing your laziness. I completely agree. All Terran players little dumb shit nubs who all live in caves and have trouble using their keyboards. omg it all makes so much FUCKING sense. Fucking terran nub cheezer shits are just subhumans. /sarcasm You don't even try to address the issues that a lot of Terran players are having. Its fine to tell people to stop complaining, IF you have a valid solution to the problem. We all wish "sniping the infestor pit" was that easy to win the game. Unfortunately, any competent zerg player is able to shut that down very easily due to overlord spread and map awareness. Even if not, the substantial core of the zerg army that will face Bio (being the only Terran force that can easily snipe tech structures) is zerglings, focusing down the infestor pit is a tactic that simply doesn't work due to the speed of the zergling army and the nature of zerg structure placement means that the infestor pit will always be in a different location every game. I can't tell exactly how, since i was Z i enjoy playing T a bit more "freestyle" i personally open up helion banshee, stay on it a bit longer (as in more than one) with the minerals i take the 3rd if i see tons of lings i'll add another fac for blue flame (always usefull anyways and 2 fac for tanks later on), bait roach and/or mutas while i've made tons of racks and upgrades, drop every single Z base (you should be 3v3 base) and from there Z will crumble and no chance to get any significant amount of Infestors since you'll see them popping out and could snipe them asap, keep up macro and over run them Or mix in Ghosts as in TvP, since are essential there why not use them in TvZ (kind of same dynamic). Or check out Day9 daily with Polt build, that works pretty well. Or Marauders/hellion allin Or just be aggressive...
About time you start "adding rax" a "good zerg" will have hive finished.
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Talking around the 8-9 minute mark...
Surely if you go mech you'll face broods immediately so why not go straight air mech?
Z on 3 base is a Z with no larvae, i always try to snipe queens first over drones or buildings even at the cost of a medivac, and if you let a Z get brood infestor on 3 base then sorry cant help.
Learn Z and you'll understand those fragile times with larvae/unit/money decisions.
Other than that i agree on Patchzerg thing, lots of irrelevant foreigners got suddenly better abusing the infestor, however if you look at the top players (like in GSL or SPL, not the average foreigner) the situation is mostly level.
But then every league has their imba unit or play based on easy and effective, can't generalize and something working in diamond may not work in silver, as top level is different from foreign level...
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On December 30 2012 16:53 Gendo wrote:
Talking around the 8-9 minute mark...
Surely if you go mech you'll face broods immediately so why not go straight air mech?
Z on 3 base is a Z with no larvae, i always try to snipe queens first over drones or buildings even at the cost of a medivac, and if you let a Z get brood infestor on 3 base then sorry cant help.
Learn Z and you'll understand those fragile times with larvae/unit/money decisions.
Other than that i agree on Patchzerg thing, lots of irrelevant foreigners got suddenly better abusing the infestor, however if you look at the top players (like in GSL or SPL, not the average foreigner) the situation is mostly level.
But then every league has their imba unit or play based on easy and effective, can't generalize and something working in diamond may not work in silver, as top level is different from foreign level...
I'm not really sure what you're talkin about.
Last post you were going into BFHellion/bansee opener and now you have a dropship full of marines at 8-9 minutes(I assume you're not doing this out of 1-base).
You've either never played terran or you don't really know what's going on in the game.
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man i just read the OP. good times.
also, if people are talking about the state of SC2; i think it is pretty clear what happened:
the progression of the "metagame" has always been to lengthen games and increase the importance of macro/decision making. players would make more and more greedy choices, while figuring better and better ways to support said greedy choices. eventually more and more games go to the late game, and lo and behold; there is no depth.
the economic design plateaued at 3 bases, at which point any tech could be reached and supported until max supply; while also making it a detriment, in both army supply and funds, to take and hold more than 3 mining bases.
so what happens to games in general? they go to the lategame, both players get max armies, and one army beats the other army. it isn't any particular racial imbalance making games boring. there just happens to be no reason and or advantage to playing differently.
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On December 30 2012 15:17 Gendo wrote:
lol still going on? tell you something:
Zerg is imba as any race at some point, due to? Infestors..
I was Z before the issue and switched to T, same league, same level..
Watch Day9 daily, and think to yourself if in an rts game you should actually think some.
Pros find it a bit difficult because they tend to stick with the "metagame" and what everybody else does, like gee helion banshee is not as effectice, let me keep doing it and complaint..
I have no problem with infestors (much less than HT) try to not let the Z macro for 20 minutes, apply pressure, snipe the pit and such, OMG it actually work..GG
And if not still happy dont play the game, Blizzard can't keep fixing your laziness.
I don't understand why zergs don't double up on their tech structures during late game when they're floating few thousand resources...it should be fairly simple to get another hive, pool, greater spire and infestation pit.
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On December 30 2012 18:41 tronix wrote:
man i just read the OP. good times.
also, if people are talking about the state of SC2; i think it is pretty clear what happened:
the progression of the "metagame" has always been to lengthen games and increase the importance of macro/decision making. players would make more and more greedy choices, while figuring better and better ways to support said greedy choices. eventually more and more games go to the late game, and lo and behold; there is no depth.
the economic design plateaued at 3 bases, at which point any tech could be reached and supported until max supply; while also making it a detriment, in both army supply and funds, to take and hold more than 3 mining bases.
so what happens to games in general? they go to the lategame, both players get max armies, and one army beats the other army. it isn't any particular racial imbalance making games boring. there just happens to be no reason and or advantage to playing differently.
This is also an interesting perspective. Especially interesting because of this:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/56JZY.png)
Because 3 base supplies ample income, and there there is no incentive to take more (more to defend with the same or less income), we are left with very delineated games.
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well I have waaaaay more trouble vs toss ^^
At masters level meching vs zergs after a hellion banshee with quick 3rd opening seems to work totally fine ^^
whenever I play zerg I have waaay more problems vs terran (particularly vs bio only) and a much easier time in vs P (well at least if they are not playing immo allin ^^ I lose to that every single fucking time haha)
I would wish people would stop crying imba and start playing it makes the game soooo much less fun to play
I mean come on whenever I play zerg every other dia terran (only high diamond/lowmasters with zerg) starts flaming befort the game even really started it's so fuckig annoying lol
When I tell them that I play terran (I even use the 750 wins with terran icon lol) they don't seem to believe me and say I should be ashamed if I build a single infestor,
So then I sometimes get so annoyed that I play roach hydry vs terran (stephano style yeah) and if I win (I rarely do with that style at least vs bio ^^) they say: see how imba this is I outplayed you all game and you didn't even need winfestors to win...
well that being said I do think that blizzard should definitely look at the situation some more but they CERTAINLY don't try favour zerg (just look at the first 1,5 years) or foreigners (lol just lol)
tldr: I hate balance whining it makes the game terribly annoying to play 
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On December 30 2012 18:01 DidYuhim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 16:53 Gendo wrote:
Talking around the 8-9 minute mark...
Surely if you go mech you'll face broods immediately so why not go straight air mech?
Z on 3 base is a Z with no larvae, i always try to snipe queens first over drones or buildings even at the cost of a medivac, and if you let a Z get brood infestor on 3 base then sorry cant help.
Learn Z and you'll understand those fragile times with larvae/unit/money decisions.
Other than that i agree on Patchzerg thing, lots of irrelevant foreigners got suddenly better abusing the infestor, however if you look at the top players (like in GSL or SPL, not the average foreigner) the situation is mostly level.
But then every league has their imba unit or play based on easy and effective, can't generalize and something working in diamond may not work in silver, as top level is different from foreign level... I'm not really sure what you're talkin about. Last post you were going into BFHellion/bansee opener and now you have a dropship full of marines at 8-9 minutes(I assume you're not doing this out of 1-base). You've either never played terran or you don't really know what's going on in the game.
Try and you will be surprised, at 9min 2 medivacs full, 8 hellions and 1 banshee (no cloak), bunker, 2 reactors no upgrades and all off 1 rax fe..
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On January 11 2013 16:09 Gendo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 18:01 DidYuhim wrote:On December 30 2012 16:53 Gendo wrote:
Talking around the 8-9 minute mark...
Surely if you go mech you'll face broods immediately so why not go straight air mech?
Z on 3 base is a Z with no larvae, i always try to snipe queens first over drones or buildings even at the cost of a medivac, and if you let a Z get brood infestor on 3 base then sorry cant help.
Learn Z and you'll understand those fragile times with larvae/unit/money decisions.
Other than that i agree on Patchzerg thing, lots of irrelevant foreigners got suddenly better abusing the infestor, however if you look at the top players (like in GSL or SPL, not the average foreigner) the situation is mostly level.
But then every league has their imba unit or play based on easy and effective, can't generalize and something working in diamond may not work in silver, as top level is different from foreign level... I'm not really sure what you're talkin about. Last post you were going into BFHellion/bansee opener and now you have a dropship full of marines at 8-9 minutes(I assume you're not doing this out of 1-base). You've either never played terran or you don't really know what's going on in the game. Try and you will be surprised, at 9min 2 medivacs full, 8 hellions and 1 banshee (no cloak), bunker, 2 reactors no upgrades and all off 1 rax fe..
Possible if you cut the faster 3rd CC.
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What the OP says is true and fits 100% to the current situation. If you took aways all this conspiracy shit this would actually be a very objectionable post for Blizzard, Teamliquid and the SC2 scene as a whole. Unfortunately the OP didn't have the balls to go through with that. Now people can just call it "satire" and laugh about some crazy conspiracy theory.
Well until just recently writing "patchzerg" would earn you at least warning on TL, so that's not a surprise he "camouflaged" it a little.
BTW how about a theory that DB and DK have a deal with zerg players and get like 30% of their winnings 
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On January 11 2013 16:17 TripleOSeven wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 16:09 Gendo wrote:On December 30 2012 18:01 DidYuhim wrote:On December 30 2012 16:53 Gendo wrote:
Talking around the 8-9 minute mark...
Surely if you go mech you'll face broods immediately so why not go straight air mech?
Z on 3 base is a Z with no larvae, i always try to snipe queens first over drones or buildings even at the cost of a medivac, and if you let a Z get brood infestor on 3 base then sorry cant help.
Learn Z and you'll understand those fragile times with larvae/unit/money decisions.
Other than that i agree on Patchzerg thing, lots of irrelevant foreigners got suddenly better abusing the infestor, however if you look at the top players (like in GSL or SPL, not the average foreigner) the situation is mostly level.
But then every league has their imba unit or play based on easy and effective, can't generalize and something working in diamond may not work in silver, as top level is different from foreign level... I'm not really sure what you're talkin about. Last post you were going into BFHellion/bansee opener and now you have a dropship full of marines at 8-9 minutes(I assume you're not doing this out of 1-base). You've either never played terran or you don't really know what's going on in the game. Try and you will be surprised, at 9min 2 medivacs full, 8 hellions and 1 banshee (no cloak), bunker, 2 reactors no upgrades and all off 1 rax fe.. Possible if you cut the faster 3rd CC.
Yeah no 3rd but you can take it as you move out, is not super powerful push but just to demonstrate you can mess up with zerg at any time..
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fungals effectively ruined tvz. i feel its become a one trick pony for zergs. no more baneling micro..no more split marines..nothing.
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doubling the dps of fungal just made the skill cap ridiculously low for zerg and ridiculously high for terran.
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On January 13 2013 07:00 karpotoss wrote:Show nested quote +
What the OP says is true and fits 100% to the current situation. If you took aways all this conspiracy shit this would actually be a very objectionable post for Blizzard, Teamliquid and the SC2 scene as a whole. Unfortunately the OP didn't have the balls to go through with that. Now people can just call it "satire" and laugh about some crazy conspiracy theory.
Well until just recently writing "patchzerg" would earn you at least warning on TL, so that's not a surprise he "camouflaged" it a little. BTW how about a theory that DB and DK have a deal with zerg players and get like 30% of their winnings
He's staff so he's given quite a lot of lenience in posting...
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I have disliked Infestors since SC2 came out. I would say that I've hated them since the big fungal patch ages ago.
I play Terran and Zerg equally. I used to play a lot of Terran in BW and it was always my favourite race but I switched to add Zerg to my repertoire in SC2 because I thought Blizzard completely dropped the ball on Terran's design and play style.
That being said, I don't feel as though I'm really biased either way, certainly not as biased as this article.
I think the problem with Infestors stems from the facts that:
1) Bio is really strong.
2) Banelings suck.
3) Lurkers were removed in beta.
4) Zerg has weak early/mid anti-air options.
That means that people will use Infestors as often as possible. Not because they want to abuse an "OP" unit, but because it's the best option available. Same goes for Terran, in most games, Terran players go some form of MMM - mech and air are (unfortunately) rare. Bio is strong as hell and it gets the job done, so why deviate? Infestor play is no different.
I would have absolutely loved it if Lurkers were still in the game. Think of how much Lurkers added to BW: positional defence or offence, forced detection, lethal killers of clumped units - but could be killed by a single marine with good micro, weak to tanks, weak to air; they were a niche unit that served a very specific role and did that job exceedingly well.
Banelings were supposed to be the answer to losing Lurkers; a potentially burrowed threat that had the power to move around and kill clumps of units (specifically marines/lings). Unfortunately Banelings suck against a competent opponent. Nobody used Infestors early on in SC2 because they had a weak (slow) FG damage - so it took a while (and a big buff) for people to realize that they actually had a use (which I suspect was originally meant to lock down units for your Banelings).
As it turns out, the way to deal with all threats has become Infestors. Which sucks for all players (and viewers). I feel the team working on SC2 has lost sight of what made BW such a fantastic game and they're too stubborn to admit it.
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EPT
