EPTLings of Liberty: The Rise of the Patchzergs - Page 95
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remarq
3 Posts
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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Steglich
Denmark282 Posts
On December 28 2012 09:37 Emzeeshady wrote: you do realize that most of it (especially the conspiracy part) was satire right? The article is imo a weird mix of facts (like the factual imbalance) and satirical absurd arguments, which makes the article anything but credible, even though it is extremely well-written, witty and actual contains some factual statistics. | ||
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Krakoskk
United Kingdom51 Posts
On December 27 2012 05:07 Protosnake wrote: When Terrans were winning everything by spamming A, the situation was pretty much the same, if not worse PS : And at the time, no one asked for a removal of the marine Just like the terrans, Zerg will take time to get nerfed, just wait That never happened...Terrans won quite a lot but they never won as much as zerg is now. Zero asian terrans (4 total) in the ro32 of WCS Blizzard? No terrans top 13 Korean finals? Sniper won a GSL? In "Terrran domination", fruitdealer and MC were winning GSLs, doesn't sound that fucking bad to me. Plus, Marines weren't even changed, so people can still spam A now, it just never worked. | ||
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Consummate
Australia191 Posts
The main nerfs (blue flame, snipe and emp) still would and should have happened, but their impact wouldn't have been anywhere near as great as on those horrid 2011 maps. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On December 29 2012 01:25 Krakoskk wrote: That never happened...Terrans won quite a lot but they never won as much as zerg is now. Zero asian terrans (4 total) in the ro32 of WCS Blizzard? No terrans top 13 Korean finals? Sniper won a GSL? In "Terrran domination", fruitdealer and MC were winning GSLs, doesn't sound that fucking bad to me. Plus, Marines weren't even changed, so people can still spam A now, it just never worked. Some of the Terran nerfs were done specifically to prevent abuses like mousewheel-snipe. These strategies have always been banned in major tournaments so you never saw them there, but on bnet it was ridiculous since there's no way to police it. Since Snipe can't overkill, players could just bind it to their mousewheel or some other method of clicking extremely quickly, and spin their mousewheel to get off 20+ snipes a second. This tactic made it literally impossible for Zerg to do anything about a large enough mass of ghosts, even huge amounts of Zerglings or Roaches would simply never get in range to do any damage, they would just insta-explode from massed snipes the second they entered vision range. It was even worse against Protoss as all your Zealots would evaporate mid-charge without ever hitting anything. | ||
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remarq
3 Posts
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On December 29 2012 05:18 remarq wrote: Honestly I didn't even realize it was 100% satire. I thought it was half kidding/half serious. In great sarcasm, you almost have to question whether it really is sarcasm or not  | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On December 29 2012 05:19 sCCrooked wrote: In great sarcasm, you almost have to question whether it really is sarcasm or not This is a historical piece that will be read some time from now, whereupon Blizzard will realize where they went wrong. | ||
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NeutralDepot
80 Posts
On December 29 2012 05:17 Xequecal wrote: Some of the Terran nerfs were done specifically to prevent abuses like mousewheel-snipe. These strategies have always been banned in major tournaments so you never saw them there, but on bnet it was ridiculous since there's no way to police it. Since Snipe can't overkill, players could just bind it to their mousewheel or some other method of clicking extremely quickly, and spin their mousewheel to get off 20+ snipes a second. This tactic made it literally impossible for Zerg to do anything about a large enough mass of ghosts, even huge amounts of Zerglings or Roaches would simply never get in range to do any damage, they would just insta-explode from massed snipes the second they entered vision range. It was even worse against Protoss as all your Zealots would evaporate mid-charge without ever hitting anything. Im usually starting off the day quite well. Then I go to teamliquid, read such retarded posts and go into maximum over rustle. You have no idea....no fuckin idea...what you are talking about. It's completely retarded and so wrong that I don't even know what to say. 1) It was never said anywhere by Blizzard that Snipe Nerf was due to mousewheel-spinning. In fact Blizzard to this day has never ever acknowledged the mouse wheel problem at all. How else would you explain that there was no change for Infested Terran Mouse Wheel Spamming which is at least as potent as Mouse Wheel Snipe. 2) Mouse Wheel Snipe is absurdly prone to bugs and wrong unit selection. Nobody would never ever snipe a roach ling force in a bigger numbers. Nobody ever did that. And how could it be even worse for Protoss when all there is that you can snipe are Zealots and HTs while every Zerg unit can be sniped. Nobody ever mass sniped Zealots. They were usually sniped in smaller battles after main battles. 3) Ghosts were extremely strong in Late game TvZ due to: 1) the combination of turtling potential (massing up energy behind Tanks and PFs/Split Map Situations) 2) the relatively invulnerability of Ghosts to any Zerg unit: Not light nor armored = No Zerg unit does bonus Damage to Ghosts. 3) Plus Damage to light makes zerglings against large Ghosts groups ineffective. 4) Sniping of KEY UNITS. KEY UNITS!!!!! NOT ROACH LING!!!!!. Ultralisks, Broodlords, Banelings to some extend and Infestors. 5) Abuse of Cloack: Ghosts directly countered any mobile Zerg Detection by Sniping/EMPing Infestors and Sniping Overseers. 6) Harssment potential by nuking expos with often cloaked ghosts. Mass Ghost really only worked because you could safely turtle to them WITH ADDITIONAL UNITS IN SPLIT MAP SITUATIONS. It's not like Ghosts would win vs a mixed Ultralisk Roach Baneling army in an open field. | ||
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NeutralDepot
80 Posts
On December 29 2012 05:18 remarq wrote: Honestly I didn't even realize it was 100% satire. I thought it was half kidding/half serious. Everybody calls it satire/sarcasm/troll while the underlying basis is completely true and what most people are thinking right now. Zerg is a joke at the moment and half-time european kids are able to wipe out full-time elite korean terrans and protosses who choose to not allin before bl/inf due to having such an advantageous meta game and a retardedly powerful late game army. At the moment it is really on the Zerg not to screw up big time to win the game while playing protoss and especially terran completely fine and standard ultimately leads to defeat. Terran can have a strong eco, good army control and good scouting information and easily lose the game to a roflstomp mass infestor plus T3 support army while Zerg nearly automatically wins if he doesn't lose 20 drones to harassment early on or moves his infestors into the opponents army. Thanks to advantageous meta game and early defense Zerg has such ridiculous recovery potential that they automatically win if they don't have to recover at all. What the OP says is true and fits 100% to the current situation. If you took aways all this conspiracy shit this would actually be a very objectionable post for Blizzard, Teamliquid and the SC2 scene as a whole. Unfortunately the OP didn't have the balls to go through with that. Now people can just call it "satire" and laugh about some crazy conspiracy theory. If the article is all fun and games please explain why Korean Top Zergs are nearly invincible at the moment, why foreign zergs are the only foreigners who do well at the moment and even stomp Koreans, why part-time foreign zerg players stomp Korean terrans who have been playing at the highest level of TvZ since the beginning and were known for their special strength in the match-up. Explain: Vortix 3-0 Gumiho Lowley 3-1 Gumiho Lowley 2-0 Marineking Stephano 3-1 Marineking Goswser 2-3 Marineking Goswser 2-1 Polt Goswser 2-1 MMA Stephano 2-0 MMA Xlord 2-0 MMA Stephano 2-0 MVP Scarlett 2-0 Ryung Scarlett 2-0 Marineking Scarlett 2-0 ForGG I can literally continue this list for the next two pages. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
On December 29 2012 18:39 monkybone wrote: You have to filter out cross server matches. TvZ cross server is a bad joke. Isn't that related to the whole issue? | ||
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NeutralDepot
80 Posts
On December 29 2012 18:39 monkybone wrote: You have to filter out cross server matches. TvZ cross server is a bad joke. A good portion of these matches were played offline and just denying results because of server related issues is pushing it. I mean a server related problem is instantly another terran disadvantage and this seems to be completely acceptable? As far as I know tourneys alter the played server in a match to ensure equal disadvantages. If this is still a significant disadvantage for Terran I don't even know why Terran Pros don't start boycotting the match-up. I have seen Vortix/Lowley - Gumiho and I can safely say that Gumiho did not lose because of the server but because of the state of TvZ at the moment. | ||
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m0ck
4194 Posts
What a brilliant line of inquiry, let's decide balance by when Koreans you think of as 'good' are beat by players outside of Korea. | ||
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Krakoskk
United Kingdom51 Posts
On December 29 2012 19:11 NeutralDepot wrote: A good portion of these matches were played offline and just denying results because of server related issues is pushing it. I mean a server related problem is instantly another terran disadvantage and this seems to be completely acceptable? As far as I know tourneys alter the played server in a match to ensure equal disadvantages. If this is still a significant disadvantage for Terran I don't even know why Terran Pros don't start boycotting the match-up. I have seen Vortix/Lowley - Gumiho and I can safely say that Gumiho did not lose because of the server but because of the state of TvZ at the moment. I don't know if the stephano games should be there though, because stephano is a player who can genuinely beat koreans consistently even before queen change (back when TvZ, and starcraft 2, was still dynamic, beautiful and not dying). Vortix, lowely, goswer Xlord? LOL! They should definately stay on the list though. On December 29 2012 19:34 m0ck wrote: ..and Stephano beat MKP the first time in the autumn of 2011, TvZ has been broken much longer than we suspected! What a brilliant line of inquiry, let's decide balance by when Koreans you think of as 'good' are beat by players outside of Korea. Just like vortix right? no? | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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NeutralDepot
80 Posts
On December 29 2012 19:36 Krakoskk wrote: I don't know if the stephano games should be there though, because stephano is a player who can genuinely beat koreans consistently even before queen change (back when TvZ, and starcraft 2, was still dynamic, beautiful and not dying). Vortix, lowely, goswer Xlord? LOL! They should definately stay on the list though. Just like vortix right? no? Stephano is a special case I agree. Normally I would not have put him on the list BUT in the past Stephano has nearly always lost against Top Korean Terrans. He has a losing record vs them in general. Be it jjakji, Taeja, Marineking, MMA or Polt. But now suddenly in a time when he is slumping HARD vs Zerg and is only mediocre vs Protoss - a match-up which he used to dominate like nobody else in the world - and his only significant statement in interviews nowadays is that he doesn't practice at all and doesn't really care I'm not buying that he has suddenly become a monster vs Korean Terrans. His style shows what's wrong in the match-up besides the infestor. Terran has such a hard time vs the strong zerg economy that he has to play immensily greedy himself or go for ridiculously fragile harassment builds. What happens when Zerg punishes this with units instead of teching to the ultimate weapon (no not flash unfortunately - i mean the infestor) is what we can see in the recent matches of Stephano vs MMA, MVP and MKP. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
This was supposed to be sarcasm and its laughable how many are referencing it like it was some rally to their anti-zerg cause. | ||
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