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On December 04 2012 13:06 EnderCraft wrote:
You made a lot of sense until you got into the conspiracy theory that blizzard buffed Zerg so SC2 can have more stream viewers. This accusation is ludicrous and not very well thought out. Your information is quite dated in the fact that blizzard has stated numerous times that they want to nerf the infestor... Hard. Just look at David Kim's recent statements on new changes coming to HoTS:
"Zerg
1. Hydralisk movement speed upgrade to Lair
2. Mutalisk buff to speed and/or acceleration
3. Ultralisk changed to be good vs. all ground
4. Nerf Infestor quite heavily
5. Make it easier to unburrow and reposition Swarm Hosts"
They obviously recognize the problem and are looking into fixing herp derp fungal spam infested terran 1a blords.
The conspiracy part is a joke, ok?
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regardless of whether or not infestors are balanced, their current form has made SC2 an absolute bore to watch, and that in and of itself is enough to warrant a change.
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i find the thinly veiled sarcasm rather repugnant.
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1. Many of you seem to forget that due to the constant patching of other races, to change the Infestor in a way that wouldn't make it difficult for Zerg's the entire game before Infestor-Brood Lord would have to be a way where they don't get rid of fungal growth, otherwise many other areas would have to be patched and the game would continue to be imbalanced.
2. While I 100% agree that BL-Infestor is imbalanced, it is not due to the Infestor being extraordinarily imbalanced (it is stronger than most other units however, just not as much as people put on), or the Brood Lord being imbalanced, it is the synergy between the two units that make it imbalanced. Most things that counter Infestors are hard countered by Brood Lords (Siege Tank) or made significantly less efficient against them (High Templar, Ghost, Banshee in effect because of Corruptor's being made anyway), while counters to Brood Lords (Vikings, Ravens w/Seeker, many Marines, Blink Stalkers, Void Rays, Carriers, Mothership, High Templars for storm, Archons) are countered by fungal because they can't get close enough to attack or use their ability. The other races have almost perfect end game armies that still require you to get position on the other player so that you can trade effectively, due to each unit in your army having a weakness that needs to be addressed.
Put otherwise, they only seem imbalanced because of how well they mesh together. If the Infestor was like the other spell-casters (Damage spell e.g. Storm and Snipe, and Energy Drain spell e.g. EMP and Feedback) the Zerg would have too difficult of a time getting to end game, but the end game would be more fair. I simply think that changing the Brood Lord so it had the same DPS but didn't throw units infinite units for damage, and that they would have a normal attack like most other units in the game, that the synergy would be much more balanced.
Put more simply, while the Infestor is only slightly better than other units in the game, it's the mind set that each type of unit has a value, and that Infestor-Brood Lord must be more valuable than end game Terran or end game Protoss because the individual units themselves are higher "rated" that is causing the problem. However, it is not because of this, but because for some reason 1+1 with Infestor-BL doesn't equal 2 when combined, but more because of how well they work together, that is the reason for the imbalance. And it was only a matter of time until pro-gamers found out the most effective/efficient unit compositions to use for each stage of the game, that's just the natural evolution of every strategy based game.
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Sincerely hope this thread becomes a classic.
Zergcraft needs a community that is able to wake up Blizzard, the game is clearly going into a wrong direction right now.
Even MMA was so desperated to join a team consisting of purely Zergs.
Yes, this should actually be considered an alarming sign, hes the infested Terran now.
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On December 04 2012 12:45 Oboeman wrote:Haha, I can't tell exactly where the line is between the funny and the serious, because i am sure there is a bit of both in here. Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 12:25 Veloh15 wrote:
The statistics you have presented have been greatly swayed by the one foreigner who has consistently beaten Koreans. Stephano he is a Zerg, but he is not a patch Zerg, and has put up good results far before this was an issue. Besides Naniwa, a Protoss foreigners haven't put up that great of numbers vs Koreans. And in fact without Stephano and Naniwa the Foreigner wins vs Koreans would look alot like the Terran's. Although Infestors create silly gameplay they do not create an imbalance. The statistics you are pulling numbers from are just not enough. Its an interesting read but I would take those statistics with a grain of salt... Yeah out of the 45 foreign zerg wins against korea, 27 of them are stephano. does that really count?
Here's the real truth. The head and shoulders best foreigner plays Zerg.
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On December 04 2012 13:34 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 12:45 Oboeman wrote:Haha, I can't tell exactly where the line is between the funny and the serious, because i am sure there is a bit of both in here. On December 04 2012 12:25 Veloh15 wrote:
The statistics you have presented have been greatly swayed by the one foreigner who has consistently beaten Koreans. Stephano he is a Zerg, but he is not a patch Zerg, and has put up good results far before this was an issue. Besides Naniwa, a Protoss foreigners haven't put up that great of numbers vs Koreans. And in fact without Stephano and Naniwa the Foreigner wins vs Koreans would look alot like the Terran's. Although Infestors create silly gameplay they do not create an imbalance. The statistics you are pulling numbers from are just not enough. Its an interesting read but I would take those statistics with a grain of salt... Yeah out of the 45 foreign zerg wins against korea, 27 of them are stephano. does that really count? Here's the real truth. The head and shoulders best foreigner plays Zerg.
also the 2nd best, 3rd best and actually 4th best foreigner standing next in line (Nerchio, Scarlett, Vortix)
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so long and fun article 
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Interesting read. Some pretty legitimate points raised here (not necessarily the whole conspiracy) but everything up 'til then is a pretty good read.
And humourous.
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preach it brotha! great post
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Great, great, satirical, write-up that basically says what most everyone has known and been thinking, even though some choose to sweep it under the rug.
Really well articulated. Good job.
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Reading through this article, it actually looks more like Blizzard were buffing the hell out of Zerg because of the incoming Heart of the Swarm.
When Legacy of the Void or whatever it was starts getting worked on, Blizzard will probably buff the crap out of Protoss too.
Which leaves Terran being the punching bag for both races as usual.
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I've never had such an intense orgasm in my entire life; excuse the crude language. Ver is god. Absolutely god.
Jokes aside this is a very true, brilliant, and well-written article. This essentially hits the nail on the head on so many things that Zerg players feverishly try to deny for the sake of ego, and has statistics to boot.
I pray that, somehow or someway, this period of disgusting imbalance will end some day. It will easily go down as the worst period in the history of SC2.
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Lol this article is a true display of Terran rage against zergs... fungals! of course! the reason as to why sc2 is being played less... and a Blizzard conspiracy! those white people.. especially Stephano - just an abuser of that fungal, no wonder he wins so much! the truth has been revealed here today folks
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On December 04 2012 13:49 KanoCoke wrote:
Reading through this article, it actually looks more like Blizzard were buffing the hell out of Zerg because of the incoming Heart of the Swarm.
When Legacy of the Void or whatever it was starts getting worked on, Blizzard will probably buff the crap out of Protoss too.
Which leaves Terran being the punching bag for both races as usual.
Boxer was smart enough to leave the sinking boat, when he smelt something is going to become really ugly.
Being a manager, he wins either way, what a excellent strategist and decision maker.
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This...this article is AWESOME.
Everything I've felt about blord/infestor...but I couldn't articulate. Watching Bomber, Polt or MKP push a zerg is like watching Sisyphus push a rock. One slip, and it's all over.
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Here's a proposition: delete infestors and bring back defilers. Bring back the arbiter for Protoss, and bring back the science vessel for Terran.
Problem solved.
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The truth is races being easier or harder is just fine. Just like playing Mortal Kombat choosing Subzero is harder than choosing Goro. You choose the one you want based on your own confidence in your own skills.
The fungal growth is separate from that. Fungal and Infested Terran are bad in the sense that Vortex is bad. There's too much riding on those two spells. If fungals and infested terran doesn't change but the damage amount changes or the infestor costs more 50 more gas, the infestors themselves might be fun units to use, similar to ghosts. The problem is that the spells do too much. But the race being easy or not is not relevant to the infestor discussion.
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The conspiracy theory is a little much for me but you do make some valid points.
Z v anything has definitely gotten a bit stale as of late with the same strat being utilized ad nauseum. However, I cannot really fault the zerg for that since the other two races do similar things. It's natural to gravitate towards combinations and builds that have a high success rate (e.g. marine/tank, MMM, Chargelot/Archon, Stalkers/HT/Colossus, etc.). I don't think this is an issue with the game design itself but more an issue of progession or lack thereof.
With so many tournaments played over the course of the year, pro-gamers do not have much opportunity to innovate and create new strategies, tactics, or builds. So they stay with the same few builds over and over until someone comes up with something new and the whole community jumps on board. But even then I can't blame them too much because some combinations are simply that good. Doesn't mean they're imbalanced. It just means that it's a solid composition.
So if the grief isn't about stagnant unit compositions or the pros' lack of time to innovate, then what is it? Maybe it's what you touched upon in your writeup: the game's unforgiving nature.
Starcraft 2 is, more often than not, a game of that singular engagement. Sure, there will be little plays here and there (e.g. ling run bys, blink stalker harass, marine/medivac drop, etc.) but the game is too often decided by one major battle. That's what I mean by the game's unforgiving nature. One bad move loses you the game. One bad move can negate almost all the good moves you've made thus far.
Sure, you could write that up to player mistake or imbalance, but I don't think that losing a single engagement should put you so far back as to lose you the game. Of course, I don't mean nerf major engagements so that the game is now decided by small plays aimed at chipping away. But maybe make it less punishing so that the game has the chance to be more dynamic.
Again, I keep thinking to myself that many of the issues raised could be solved with better or more innovative play. I can't decry the lack of unit composition variety when BW falls into the same trap (e.g. tanks/vultures, speedlots/arbiters, etc.).
Now for something of actual substance (perhaps).
I think Blizzard should try and change Fungal Growth to slow instead of stop dead. It can still do damage over time but it'll slow movement by 25% or something instead of rooting units in place. That way, fungals can still give the zerg player quite an edge while not entirely negating the opponent's ability to micro and do something about it.
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EPT
