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1 week of intense whining, and they decide that the infestor might not be balanced, really? Don't get me wrong, I think there are problems with the infestor, and I'm glad they're doing something about it, but the infestor's been like this for a long time. I wish they'd do their job at balancing the game, instead of relying on the community to be vocal.
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I'm surprised that Browder is at work on a Sunday.
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It doesn't have to be a projectile either. A projectile like the one in the OP would look silly when air is involved.
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On November 12 2012 05:10 Zoku wrote:
1 week of intense whining, and they decide that the infestor might not be balanced, really? Don't get me wrong, I think there are problems with the infestor, and I'm glad they're doing something about it, but the infestor's been like this for a long time. I wish they'd do their job at balancing the game, instead of relying on the community to be vocal. They release statements about the infestor pretty frequently actually...people choose to ignore them.
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On November 12 2012 04:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:45 trinxified wrote:On November 12 2012 04:43 Plansix wrote:On November 12 2012 04:28 Rabiator wrote:On November 12 2012 02:24 Valikyr wrote:On November 12 2012 02:19 SiguR wrote:
What a succinct and honest statement. I'm sad that the world championships might get fucked over because of the balance, but as long as we're constantly moving towards a better game, I'm happy. Changing the Infestor this close to World Championships would be a big mistake too though. I just hope they're not afraid to redesign the infestor more than nerfing dmg/supply. Fungal is toooo boring. Why? There are ALWAYS some championships or tournaments going on and someone will get screwed over by changes eventually. Thats the nature of changes that you have to adapt to them and that it takes time. Is "halfway through a GSL" a better time? Not really. Because it is not fair to switch u the game with less than 5 days to go. It wasn't fair when they did it during GSL and it wouldn't be fair now. We asked Blizzard to pay attention and not patch in the middle of tournaments. Now they are and the side effect is that if a balance patch is necessary, it will happen at the end of a major tournament. Blizzard is only waiting after WCS because that is THEIR tournament. If it was GSL/IPL/MLG/DH, etc. they wouldn't have waited to post what their plans are or quite possibly even the actual change. It is weird how they would consider the dates of their own tournament when making balance changes. I wonder if Riot does the same thing. Wait, yes they do.
Not really ... LoL tournaments are played on "patch X" and this is known beforehand, but they can add a patch 5 minutes before a tournament without changing anything in the tournament. Sadly SC2 has to be connected to the Battlenet at all times and thus you can only play on the most recent patch implemented.
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Phew. I was starting to seriously consider maybe seeing if I could retrain myself to play Zerg after all these seasons of learning how to Terran.
-_-'
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On November 12 2012 05:20 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:49 Plansix wrote:On November 12 2012 04:45 trinxified wrote:On November 12 2012 04:43 Plansix wrote:On November 12 2012 04:28 Rabiator wrote:On November 12 2012 02:24 Valikyr wrote:On November 12 2012 02:19 SiguR wrote:
What a succinct and honest statement. I'm sad that the world championships might get fucked over because of the balance, but as long as we're constantly moving towards a better game, I'm happy. Changing the Infestor this close to World Championships would be a big mistake too though. I just hope they're not afraid to redesign the infestor more than nerfing dmg/supply. Fungal is toooo boring. Why? There are ALWAYS some championships or tournaments going on and someone will get screwed over by changes eventually. Thats the nature of changes that you have to adapt to them and that it takes time. Is "halfway through a GSL" a better time? Not really. Because it is not fair to switch u the game with less than 5 days to go. It wasn't fair when they did it during GSL and it wouldn't be fair now. We asked Blizzard to pay attention and not patch in the middle of tournaments. Now they are and the side effect is that if a balance patch is necessary, it will happen at the end of a major tournament. Blizzard is only waiting after WCS because that is THEIR tournament. If it was GSL/IPL/MLG/DH, etc. they wouldn't have waited to post what their plans are or quite possibly even the actual change. It is weird how they would consider the dates of their own tournament when making balance changes. I wonder if Riot does the same thing. Wait, yes they do. Not really ... LoL tournaments are played on "patch X" and this is known beforehand, but they can add a patch 5 minutes before a tournament without changing anything in the tournament. Sadly SC2 has to be connected to the Battlenet at all times and thus you can only play on the most recent patch implemented.
Although you could in theory create maps with units that function differently from the ladder and play on them in tournaments, to achieve the same result.
Think of the test maps they put out for queen range/overlord speed and the raven change.
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On November 12 2012 05:20 felisconcolori wrote:
Phew. I was starting to seriously consider maybe seeing if I could retrain myself to play Zerg after all these seasons of learning how to Terran.
-_-'
The grass always seems greener on the other side  .
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Better late than never.
Looking forward to see which nerf they will try first, fungal nerf or infested terran nerf ( somehow I think they're gonna try different things ).
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On November 12 2012 03:26 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 03:16 Melaine wrote:On November 12 2012 03:13 rd wrote:On November 12 2012 03:07 Melaine wrote:On November 12 2012 03:00 Glurkenspurk wrote:On November 12 2012 02:41 Melaine wrote:
Fungle has been nerfed several times over the years......I don't understand the fuss.....Terran+protoss had their flavor of the month op, terran was op for 2 years and we had only Terran Gsl's, zerg has few months of great results......and people cry like mad???
This is the only Gsl season code s out of years and many seasons that we finnaly have alot of zergs in the group....and its not because of infestor.....infestors were the same as they were last year and zergs were losing.....only change was the Korean Zergs got better........you guys act like they did a major buff on infestors and all the sudden they are op.
Such silly things people choose to cry about just because their race is losing. I'm surprised Team Liquid puts up with the mass infestor posts and does not start deleting most of them. Why can't people just not cry, and just learn to get better in the game and have fun?? The Korean Pros get better and overcome anything because they do not cry and moan about things that are not even that OP.
..They should let infestor broodlord maintain its current state because another race was imba for a longer time? That's like letting black people enslave white people for a few years to make up for slavery in the US. You should try to reach a balance, not just periodically let one race be imba imba to make up for other balance mistakes. Also almost every code a interview had the players complaining about balance, even Nestea. Sometimes I think people like you just want to cry about anything they can. Infestors have not been buffed to all the sudden make them "op" People who are not pros, watch the GSL and see a certain thing win, then crawl back to the forums and state its "oP"....when the real fact is, it has not effect on people below gm, or even people in GM, because they lose due to their own skill lvl not a unit. Zergs were losing often and least represented in the GSL last year......infestor was the same back then, as it is now.........mmm what can it be??? o ya, Pros get better and the skill cap increases, they learned to use a certain unit combo well, and that makes it op??? come on now. Yeah. sometimes I think people do like to cry about anything they can. Infestor was buffed, as fungal now has way more dps -- enough to rip apart marines. The old fungal never did that. And just because players got better, doesn't mean anything can't not be imbalanced. The fact was, it could have been imbalanced the entire time until players learned how to use it correctly. Come on now. Stop trolling. or if you are srsr, did you just start playing sc2? infestors have never been buffed, I'm not sure what game u are playing.....the last balance of infestor nerfed the fungal dmg and the range of NP....Bad troll is Bad http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.1.2http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.0http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.4.0http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.4.2http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.4.3![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LWcdL.png) But the real kicker, the change that wasn't reverted on patch 1.4 was the reduction in Fungal Growth's duration. effectively increasing it's DPS by applying it's damage twice as fast.1.0 fungal, 36 dmg over 8s: 4.5 dps 1.4 fungal, 30 dmg over 4s: 7.5 dpsNah, the infestor was never touched, and the account made 10 days ago with 22 posts calls me a troll.
That is wrong, in patch 1.40 it was nerfed, in 1.3, the duration was halved, then it was 36 dmg normally and +30% vs armored,which is total of 46 dmg, not it's 40 vs armored and 30 normal, so it was nerfed in 1.4) So last change to infestor nerfed it's dmg, the one that buffed the dmg was 1.3 which is one and a half year ago......
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On November 12 2012 03:29 AndreiDaGiant wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 03:13 Cinim wrote:On November 12 2012 02:19 SiguR wrote:
What a succinct and honest statement. I'm sad that the world championships might get fucked over because of the balance, but as long as we're constantly moving towards a better game, I'm happy. People currently overrate how good infestor is, it's mostly a defensive unit, recently Z just started to play more defensive and people feel they have to rush into it, it's like this all the time, people did it as well about the queen change, after short time no one cared about it, same happened when T was OP, etc. and every single time nothing changed, and suddenly it didn't matter at all. People are just too keen on looking on the presence, rather than trying to develop new ways to approach the game, not just like P are doing constantly, making new goals to do the same thing as different timings. Z started to play differently, so P and T should as well no there is actually just no response for protoss to beat infestor broodlord other then praying for a nice vortex. vs terran infestor broodlord is also very hard to stop but i do admit ravens with seeker missle can be strong if you can get to that point. I think the main issue is that you build infestors in order to counter everything in the game and that is not good game design.
Say that to Babyknight who just now beat sheth with fully maxed out army, only getting 4 blords in vortex
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On November 12 2012 05:02 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:
Projectile change would be good, gives a chance to micro away from it at least, I'm not sure about changing it to a slow spell instead of root as many people have said. The IT egg armor change would be good as well.
Just because they are considered OP now doesn't mean they need to be nerffed to extinction.
Fungal is a terrible concept, because you basically force one player to "take his hands off his mouse and keyboard" due to the lockdown. The same is true for Forcefield. Thus the lockdown MUST GO regardless of the spell being OP or not. A comparable lockdown in BW was the Arbiter's Stasis Field, BUT that spell made the affected unit(s) invulnerable instead of killing it outright. Fungal is the "all-in-one package" with lockdown, damage and no damage immunity.
Unit micro *should be* forced onto the attacker and not the defender, because the attacker usually chooses the time and place for the engagement and has the initial advantage already. Putting all the micro on the defenders side - like the oh so awesome Marine split which "SC2-must-stay-as-it-is-fetishists" usually bring - is a terrible decision, because reacting to an engagement puts them behind already.
On November 12 2012 05:23 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 05:20 Rabiator wrote:On November 12 2012 04:49 Plansix wrote:On November 12 2012 04:45 trinxified wrote:On November 12 2012 04:43 Plansix wrote:On November 12 2012 04:28 Rabiator wrote:On November 12 2012 02:24 Valikyr wrote:On November 12 2012 02:19 SiguR wrote:
What a succinct and honest statement. I'm sad that the world championships might get fucked over because of the balance, but as long as we're constantly moving towards a better game, I'm happy. Changing the Infestor this close to World Championships would be a big mistake too though. I just hope they're not afraid to redesign the infestor more than nerfing dmg/supply. Fungal is toooo boring. Why? There are ALWAYS some championships or tournaments going on and someone will get screwed over by changes eventually. Thats the nature of changes that you have to adapt to them and that it takes time. Is "halfway through a GSL" a better time? Not really. Because it is not fair to switch u the game with less than 5 days to go. It wasn't fair when they did it during GSL and it wouldn't be fair now. We asked Blizzard to pay attention and not patch in the middle of tournaments. Now they are and the side effect is that if a balance patch is necessary, it will happen at the end of a major tournament. Blizzard is only waiting after WCS because that is THEIR tournament. If it was GSL/IPL/MLG/DH, etc. they wouldn't have waited to post what their plans are or quite possibly even the actual change. It is weird how they would consider the dates of their own tournament when making balance changes. I wonder if Riot does the same thing. Wait, yes they do. Not really ... LoL tournaments are played on "patch X" and this is known beforehand, but they can add a patch 5 minutes before a tournament without changing anything in the tournament. Sadly SC2 has to be connected to the Battlenet at all times and thus you can only play on the most recent patch implemented. Although you could in theory create maps with units that function differently from the ladder and play on them in tournaments, to achieve the same result. Think of the test maps they put out for queen range/overlord speed and the raven change.
Highly impractical when you think about the way in which custom maps are published. You basically need one account for every tournament and can you imagine the shitstorm when you make one tiny mistake with the numbers for one unit?
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On November 12 2012 05:29 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 05:02 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:
Projectile change would be good, gives a chance to micro away from it at least, I'm not sure about changing it to a slow spell instead of root as many people have said. The IT egg armor change would be good as well.
Just because they are considered OP now doesn't mean they need to be nerffed to extinction. Fungal is a terrible concept, because you basically force one player to "take his hands off his mouse and keyboard" due to the lockdown. The same is true for Forcefield. Thus the lockdown MUST GO regardless of the spell being OP or not. A comparable lockdown in BW was the Arbiter's Stasis Field, BUT that spell made the affected unit(s) invulnerable instead of killing it outright. Fungal is the "all-in-one package" with lockdown, damage and no damage immunity. Unit micro *should be* forced onto the attacker and not the defender, because the attacker usually chooses the time and place for the engagement and has the initial advantage already. Putting all the micro on the defenders side - like the oh so awesome Marine split which "SC2-must-stay-as-it-is-fetishists" usually bring - is a terrible decision, because reacting to an engagement puts them behind already.
It's more comparable to Maelstrom or Lockdown IMO.
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Hmm took them several months to realize that infestors are ridiculous.
My suggestion on nerfing fungal growth is to make it affect maximum up to 4 targets so it is not so strong against air or completely remove the root affect. I don't think making it a snare or projectile will fix infestor/broodlord combo as protoss still need to rely on blinking into the army to kill the broodlords or make voidrays and making it a snare or projectile won't solve it in my opinion.
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On November 12 2012 05:29 Cinim wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 03:29 AndreiDaGiant wrote:On November 12 2012 03:13 Cinim wrote:On November 12 2012 02:19 SiguR wrote:
What a succinct and honest statement. I'm sad that the world championships might get fucked over because of the balance, but as long as we're constantly moving towards a better game, I'm happy. People currently overrate how good infestor is, it's mostly a defensive unit, recently Z just started to play more defensive and people feel they have to rush into it, it's like this all the time, people did it as well about the queen change, after short time no one cared about it, same happened when T was OP, etc. and every single time nothing changed, and suddenly it didn't matter at all. People are just too keen on looking on the presence, rather than trying to develop new ways to approach the game, not just like P are doing constantly, making new goals to do the same thing as different timings. Z started to play differently, so P and T should as well no there is actually just no response for protoss to beat infestor broodlord other then praying for a nice vortex. vs terran infestor broodlord is also very hard to stop but i do admit ravens with seeker missle can be strong if you can get to that point. I think the main issue is that you build infestors in order to counter everything in the game and that is not good game design. Say that to Babyknight who just now beat sheth with fully maxed out army, only getting 4 blords in vortex
Is this the same engagement where it was 200 supply vs 140 supply? At that point, BK had 55 probes to Sheth's 75 drones. He had an enormous army and sheth had... well... nothing.
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On November 12 2012 05:32 Trumpstyle wrote:
Hmm took them several months to realize that infestors are ridiculous.
My suggestion on nerfing fungal growth is to make it affect maximum up to 4 targets so it is not so strong against air or completely remove the root affect. I don't think making it a snare or projectile will fix infestor/broodlord combo as protoss still need to rely on blinking into the army to kill the broodlords or make voidrays and making it a snare or projectile won't solve it in my opinion.
One fungal on 4 marines? wow best idea ever.
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On November 12 2012 05:31 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 05:29 Rabiator wrote:On November 12 2012 05:02 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:
Projectile change would be good, gives a chance to micro away from it at least, I'm not sure about changing it to a slow spell instead of root as many people have said. The IT egg armor change would be good as well.
Just because they are considered OP now doesn't mean they need to be nerffed to extinction. Fungal is a terrible concept, because you basically force one player to "take his hands off his mouse and keyboard" due to the lockdown. The same is true for Forcefield. Thus the lockdown MUST GO regardless of the spell being OP or not. A comparable lockdown in BW was the Arbiter's Stasis Field, BUT that spell made the affected unit(s) invulnerable instead of killing it outright. Fungal is the "all-in-one package" with lockdown, damage and no damage immunity. Unit micro *should be* forced onto the attacker and not the defender, because the attacker usually chooses the time and place for the engagement and has the initial advantage already. Putting all the micro on the defenders side - like the oh so awesome Marine split which "SC2-must-stay-as-it-is-fetishists" usually bring - is a terrible decision, because reacting to an engagement puts them behind already. It's more comparable to Maelstrom or Lockdown IMO.
You are right, BUT neither of those spells deals damage in addition to the stun AND both of them are limited to a certain group of targets (bio / mech). So Fungal Growth is the "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" [egg-laying, wooly, milk-giving pig ... german term created in the 50s or so in the Bundeswehr for weapon systems which could "do it all"] of stun spells.
You also couldnt really stack your whole army in BW so much as to "lose half of it" to 3-4 spells ... so that brings us back to one of the things I have been complaining about for some time now.
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HOPE 2012. Projectile would be great
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On November 12 2012 05:34 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 05:29 Cinim wrote:On November 12 2012 03:29 AndreiDaGiant wrote:On November 12 2012 03:13 Cinim wrote:On November 12 2012 02:19 SiguR wrote:
What a succinct and honest statement. I'm sad that the world championships might get fucked over because of the balance, but as long as we're constantly moving towards a better game, I'm happy. People currently overrate how good infestor is, it's mostly a defensive unit, recently Z just started to play more defensive and people feel they have to rush into it, it's like this all the time, people did it as well about the queen change, after short time no one cared about it, same happened when T was OP, etc. and every single time nothing changed, and suddenly it didn't matter at all. People are just too keen on looking on the presence, rather than trying to develop new ways to approach the game, not just like P are doing constantly, making new goals to do the same thing as different timings. Z started to play differently, so P and T should as well no there is actually just no response for protoss to beat infestor broodlord other then praying for a nice vortex. vs terran infestor broodlord is also very hard to stop but i do admit ravens with seeker missle can be strong if you can get to that point. I think the main issue is that you build infestors in order to counter everything in the game and that is not good game design. Say that to Babyknight who just now beat sheth with fully maxed out army, only getting 4 blords in vortex Is this the same engagement where it was 200 supply vs 140 supply? At that point, BK had 55 probes to Sheth's 75 drones. He had an enormous army and sheth had... well... nothing.
No, they started with them being 200 vs 200 after that Sheth had no economy, and then the 200 vs 140 fight came.
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On November 12 2012 05:36 NightOfTheDead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 05:32 Trumpstyle wrote:
Hmm took them several months to realize that infestors are ridiculous.
My suggestion on nerfing fungal growth is to make it affect maximum up to 4 targets so it is not so strong against air or completely remove the root affect. I don't think making it a snare or projectile will fix infestor/broodlord combo as protoss still need to rely on blinking into the army to kill the broodlords or make voidrays and making it a snare or projectile won't solve it in my opinion. One fungal on 4 marines? wow best idea ever.
Zerg has banelings. Don't need fungal to counter marines.
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EPT
