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I hope something will be done before IPL5 and DHW.
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On November 12 2012 02:24 Valikyr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:19 SiguR wrote:
What a succinct and honest statement. I'm sad that the world championships might get fucked over because of the balance, but as long as we're constantly moving towards a better game, I'm happy. Changing the Infestor this close to World Championships would be a big mistake too though. I just hope they're not afraid to redesign the infestor more than nerfing dmg/supply. Fungal is toooo boring.
Why?
There are ALWAYS some championships or tournaments going on and someone will get screwed over by changes eventually. Thats the nature of changes that you have to adapt to them and that it takes time. Is "halfway through a GSL" a better time? Not really.
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Let's all hope BWC will be a near complete ZvZ fest in the Ro16.
Maybe that'll be enough data for this idiot to do something with.
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On November 12 2012 04:28 Kamwah wrote:
Let's all hope BWC will be a near complete ZvZ fest in the Ro16.
Maybe that'll be enough data for this idiot to do something with.
It won't be if you saw the player list.
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Cloud has a point, they should have come up with a result already and implement it after their tournament. Looking at the participant list, the NA and SEA Zergs are not really the best of the best, whereas half of the tosses are top Koreans. The tournament might see quite a few zergs drop out and getting dominated, but that is because their opponents were much, much better. That says nothing about balance per se.
tl;dr Stop looking at data. The nerfs should be ready to be implemented ASAP after the tourney and not based on the tourney.
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Turning Fungal Growth back into a projectile is one of the better ideas IMO. It raises the skill cap of using Infestors which is badly needed IMO and gives players a way of actually microing against Infestors which is something that's also badly needed.
Other than that, I think they should at least TRY adjusting the supply cost of Infestors from 2 supply to 3. This will cut back on a lot of the mass infestor builds we've been seeing lately, and force Zergs into using them more strategically. not as a blanket catch all unit that counters everything.
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On November 12 2012 04:16 Shinespark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:10 aTnClouD wrote:On November 12 2012 04:06 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:00 aTnClouD wrote:
Yeah take more time, give more fame and money to undeserving players and take it away from hardworking ones. Perhaps it would be cool to send baldie and 50(per)cent a couple of red noses and fake green curly hair so they can be professional clowns without trying to hide it so hard. When terran was absurdly OP you never won anything either. Why do you assume I'm talking about myself. I always loathed how SC2 was designed and I never had enough passion to win stuff back then when it was all about who had the newest all in. This just adds up to the frustration I get when I realize how slow and incompetent SC2 designers are. Zerg has been a joke for months now and all they say is that they will wait until their own world tournament is screwed up just to start looking for solutions. This is RIDICOLOUS. What would be RIDICOLOUS is change the units 2 weeks before a major tournament. With all strategies getting screwed like that who knows what will happen. And besides don't tell me you're angry cause your fellow hard working terrans aren't winning and you're completely altruistic.
Of course they are not completely altruistic. But being not good enough to be winning, and then seeing that even if you practiced hard and became good you still wouldnt be winning is highly demotivational.
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On November 12 2012 04:27 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:24 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:20 aTnClouD wrote:On November 12 2012 04:16 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:10 aTnClouD wrote:On November 12 2012 04:06 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:00 aTnClouD wrote:
Yeah take more time, give more fame and money to undeserving players and take it away from hardworking ones. Perhaps it would be cool to send baldie and 50(per)cent a couple of red noses and fake green curly hair so they can be professional clowns without trying to hide it so hard. When terran was absurdly OP you never won anything either. Why do you assume I'm talking about myself. I always loathed how SC2 was designed and I never had enough passion to win stuff back then when it was all about who had the newest all in. This just adds up to the frustration I get when I realize how slow and incompetent SC2 designers are. Zerg has been a joke for months now and all they say is that they will wait until their own world tournament is screwed up just to start looking for solutions. This is RIDICOLOUS. What would be RIDICOLOUS is change the units 2 weeks before a major tournament. With all strategies getting screwed like that who knows what will happen. And besides don't tell me you're angry cause your fellow hard working terrans aren't winning and you're completely altruistic. This is what makes me upset: "- We are going to continue to watch games and gather data. - We will discuss changes. - We may try a balance map sometime after BWC." So basically what they say is that they are waiting for WCS World Finals results to take a move. It's fine and it makes sense not to patch a game before a tournament but at least have the fucking answer ready when it's over. It's true that they took too long. They always take too long. Terran was OP for the longest time, now Zerg is OP and we all know it and they still take too long. But you whine too much and I suggest you stop before you completely destroy your fanbase. Lol, they always take too long. Unless it's a nerf to the thor. Then they're too fast, right? Balance patches should be taking this long. It's the only way to thoroughly examine the merits of a possible imbalance by letting the best players argue for or against it the best way they can: results, which have no bias.
Then they could use results from the ladder, where the races are more equally represented than in tournaments. Plus tournaments are fewer and therefore more prone to shot noise. Also, results are biased in favor of koreans regardless of race.
In any case, the infestor is poorly designed on a theoretical basis and that doesn't even need testing. It works versus literally EVERYTHING. The other guy is making lings? You make infestors. Going air? Make infestors. Is he making infestors? No problem, make infestors!
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On November 12 2012 04:29 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:28 Kamwah wrote:
Let's all hope BWC will be a near complete ZvZ fest in the Ro16.
Maybe that'll be enough data for this idiot to do something with.
It won't be if you saw the player list.
I saw the player list and I saw 4 terrans in the tournament. It might not be all zvz, but as a terran fan it sucks.
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Let's put this feud to a poll.
Poll: Do you agree with Browder's post?Thumbs up (59) 95% Thumbs down (3) 5% 62 total votes Your vote: Do you agree with Browder's post? (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
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France13023 Posts
On November 12 2012 04:28 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:20 aTnClouD wrote:On November 12 2012 04:16 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:10 aTnClouD wrote:On November 12 2012 04:06 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:00 aTnClouD wrote:
Yeah take more time, give more fame and money to undeserving players and take it away from hardworking ones. Perhaps it would be cool to send baldie and 50(per)cent a couple of red noses and fake green curly hair so they can be professional clowns without trying to hide it so hard. When terran was absurdly OP you never won anything either. Why do you assume I'm talking about myself. I always loathed how SC2 was designed and I never had enough passion to win stuff back then when it was all about who had the newest all in. This just adds up to the frustration I get when I realize how slow and incompetent SC2 designers are. Zerg has been a joke for months now and all they say is that they will wait until their own world tournament is screwed up just to start looking for solutions. This is RIDICOLOUS. What would be RIDICOLOUS is change the units 2 weeks before a major tournament. With all strategies getting screwed like that who knows what will happen. And besides don't tell me you're angry cause your fellow hard working terrans aren't winning and you're completely altruistic. This is what makes me upset: "- We are going to continue to watch games and gather data. - We will discuss changes. - We may try a balance map sometime after BWC." So basically what they say is that they are waiting for WCS World Finals results to take a move. It's fine and it makes sense not to patch a game before a tournament but at least have the fucking answer ready when it's over. Probably going to revert any changes if a Terran wins, like during IEM Cologne.
Yeah a 4 times korean GSL champion beating a polish zerg sure was proof that the game is fine lol. This was hilarious to see :D.
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On November 12 2012 04:28 Kamwah wrote:
Let's all hope BWC will be a near complete ZvZ fest in the Ro16.
Maybe that'll be enough data for this idiot to do something with.
It'll be a straight PvZ fest with a Protoss eventually winning the whole thing.
Like 90% of the koreans attending are Protoss players.
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On November 12 2012 04:30 Shinespark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:27 rd wrote:On November 12 2012 04:24 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:20 aTnClouD wrote:On November 12 2012 04:16 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:10 aTnClouD wrote:On November 12 2012 04:06 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:00 aTnClouD wrote:
Yeah take more time, give more fame and money to undeserving players and take it away from hardworking ones. Perhaps it would be cool to send baldie and 50(per)cent a couple of red noses and fake green curly hair so they can be professional clowns without trying to hide it so hard. When terran was absurdly OP you never won anything either. Why do you assume I'm talking about myself. I always loathed how SC2 was designed and I never had enough passion to win stuff back then when it was all about who had the newest all in. This just adds up to the frustration I get when I realize how slow and incompetent SC2 designers are. Zerg has been a joke for months now and all they say is that they will wait until their own world tournament is screwed up just to start looking for solutions. This is RIDICOLOUS. What would be RIDICOLOUS is change the units 2 weeks before a major tournament. With all strategies getting screwed like that who knows what will happen. And besides don't tell me you're angry cause your fellow hard working terrans aren't winning and you're completely altruistic. This is what makes me upset: "- We are going to continue to watch games and gather data. - We will discuss changes. - We may try a balance map sometime after BWC." So basically what they say is that they are waiting for WCS World Finals results to take a move. It's fine and it makes sense not to patch a game before a tournament but at least have the fucking answer ready when it's over. It's true that they took too long. They always take too long. Terran was OP for the longest time, now Zerg is OP and we all know it and they still take too long. But you whine too much and I suggest you stop before you completely destroy your fanbase. Lol, they always take too long. Unless it's a nerf to the thor. Then they're too fast, right? Balance patches should be taking this long. It's the only way to thoroughly examine the merits of a possible imbalance by letting the best players argue for or against it the best way they can: results, which have no bias. Then they could use results from the ladder, where the races are more equally represented than in tournaments. Plus tournaments are fewer and therefore more prone to shot noise. Also, results are biased in favor of koreans regardless of race. In any case, the infestor is poorly designed on a theoretical basis and that doesn't even need testing. It works versus literally EVERYTHING. The other guy is making lings? You make infestors. Going air? Make infestors. Is he making infestors? No problem, make infestors!
Results was a poor word. I didn't strictly mean winrates, as much as I meant analyzing the games and winrates. Either way, the central point was implying that the games have to be played out to reveal nothing can be done through innovation of what's currently available, reaffirming my point balance patches should take much longer than they normally do.
On November 12 2012 04:29 Vindicare605 wrote:
Turning Fungal Growth back into a projectile is one of the better ideas IMO. It raises the skill cap of using Infestors which is badly needed IMO and gives players a way of actually microing against Infestors which is something that's also badly needed.
Other than that, I think they should at least TRY adjusting the supply cost of Infestors from 2 supply to 3. This will cut back on a lot of the mass infestor builds we've been seeing lately, and force Zergs into using them more strategically. not as a blanket catch all unit that counters everything.
Nerfing mass infestor with supply also nerfs the unit in every other composition it'd normally support in smaller numbers though. I'd rather see the Infestor become more manageable to dissuade massing it, or a solution to the metagame that allows them to mass them so freely via turtle zerg style, if any solution should be required at all.
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On November 12 2012 04:31 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:28 Lunareste wrote:On November 12 2012 04:20 aTnClouD wrote:On November 12 2012 04:16 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:10 aTnClouD wrote:On November 12 2012 04:06 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:00 aTnClouD wrote:
Yeah take more time, give more fame and money to undeserving players and take it away from hardworking ones. Perhaps it would be cool to send baldie and 50(per)cent a couple of red noses and fake green curly hair so they can be professional clowns without trying to hide it so hard. When terran was absurdly OP you never won anything either. Why do you assume I'm talking about myself. I always loathed how SC2 was designed and I never had enough passion to win stuff back then when it was all about who had the newest all in. This just adds up to the frustration I get when I realize how slow and incompetent SC2 designers are. Zerg has been a joke for months now and all they say is that they will wait until their own world tournament is screwed up just to start looking for solutions. This is RIDICOLOUS. What would be RIDICOLOUS is change the units 2 weeks before a major tournament. With all strategies getting screwed like that who knows what will happen. And besides don't tell me you're angry cause your fellow hard working terrans aren't winning and you're completely altruistic. This is what makes me upset: "- We are going to continue to watch games and gather data. - We will discuss changes. - We may try a balance map sometime after BWC." So basically what they say is that they are waiting for WCS World Finals results to take a move. It's fine and it makes sense not to patch a game before a tournament but at least have the fucking answer ready when it's over. Probably going to revert any changes if a Terran wins, like during IEM Cologne. Yeah a 4 times korean GSL champion beating a polish zerg sure was proof that the game is fine lol. This was hilarious to see :D.
Its funny how blizzard only seemed to focus on the MVP games and not Bomber, Supernova, Forgg, and Puma getting destroyed by zergs. Everything is fine though who cares if theres next to no terrans in their own tournament.
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Ghost treatment:
"Fungal Growth no longer does damage"
(just kidding)
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On November 12 2012 04:39 Talack wrote:
Ghost treatment:
"Fungal Growth no longer does damage"
(just kidding)
By the way, even if not on its own, it's still a viable change.
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changes cant come soon enough if you ask me, im just glad that hes aware of the way the community feels at this point
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On November 12 2012 04:28 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:24 Valikyr wrote:On November 12 2012 02:19 SiguR wrote:
What a succinct and honest statement. I'm sad that the world championships might get fucked over because of the balance, but as long as we're constantly moving towards a better game, I'm happy. Changing the Infestor this close to World Championships would be a big mistake too though. I just hope they're not afraid to redesign the infestor more than nerfing dmg/supply. Fungal is toooo boring. Why? There are ALWAYS some championships or tournaments going on and someone will get screwed over by changes eventually. Thats the nature of changes that you have to adapt to them and that it takes time. Is "halfway through a GSL" a better time? Not really.
Because it is not fair to switch u the game with less than 5 days to go. It wasn't fair when they did it during GSL and it wouldn't be fair now. We asked Blizzard to pay attention and not patch in the middle of tournaments. Now they are and the side effect is that if a balance patch is necessary, it will happen at the end of a major tournament.
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On November 12 2012 04:41 JohnMadden wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:39 Talack wrote:
Ghost treatment:
"Fungal Growth no longer does damage"
(just kidding) By the way, even if not on its own, it's still a viable change.
How about protoss? Infestors own them too.
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EPT
