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On November 12 2012 04:11 Dzerzhinsky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 03:13 Cinim wrote:On November 12 2012 02:19 SiguR wrote:
What a succinct and honest statement. I'm sad that the world championships might get fucked over because of the balance, but as long as we're constantly moving towards a better game, I'm happy. People currently overrate how good infestor is, it's mostly a defensive unit, recently Z just started to play more defensive and people feel they have to rush into it, it's like this all the time, people did it as well about the queen change, after short time no one cared about it, same happened when T was OP, etc. and every single time nothing changed, and suddenly it didn't matter at all. People are just too keen on looking on the presence, rather than trying to develop new ways to approach the game, not just like P are doing constantly, making new goals to do the same thing as different timings. Z started to play differently, so P and T should as well Plenty of people still care about the Queen change and think it was ridiculous, they just realise that it isn't going to change.
This. Queen buff + ovie buff were a joke, uncalled for and the main reason we got to this situation. But reverting that would take blizzard to say they made a mistake, so I'll take whatever attempt at balance they'll throw at us.
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On November 12 2012 04:00 aTnClouD wrote:
Yeah take more time, give more fame and money to undeserving players and take it away from hardworking ones. Perhaps it would be cool to send baldie and 50(per)cent a couple of red noses and fake green curly hair so they can be professional clowns without trying to hide it so hard.
Maybe come back when you can beat Goody in TvT. Unless T is overpowered.
As far as Browder's response, it makes complete sense, and I don't see what else they could do.
Considering it's only been very recently when Zerg has been super "OP" (as in >55% winrates on major competitions), and before that they were still about 50% in those same competitions, a knee jerk reaction would be dumb.
Changing something before WCS would also screw most people over, because zergs wouldn't be able to adapt, anything which impacts non-zerg (e.g. buff to counters) would potentially screw up the other two matchups, and it would make it even worse than playing with current metagame balance.
Maybe instead of bitching, people should experiment. And I don't just mean players, I mean competitions. If zerg is winning too much, look at the map pools being used and consider making some changes, or making new maps. Put in some maps which were biased against zerg to even it up.
In many years of unpatched Broodwar, the racial balance was changed regularly through maps, maybe people should start thinking about doing that now, rather than just complaining.
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On November 12 2012 04:10 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:06 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:00 aTnClouD wrote:
Yeah take more time, give more fame and money to undeserving players and take it away from hardworking ones. Perhaps it would be cool to send baldie and 50(per)cent a couple of red noses and fake green curly hair so they can be professional clowns without trying to hide it so hard. When terran was absurdly OP you never won anything either. Why do you assume I'm talking about myself. I always loathed how SC2 was designed and I never had enough passion to win stuff back then when it was all about who had the newest all in. This just adds up to the frustration I get when I realize how slow and incompetent SC2 designers are. Zerg has been a joke for months now and all they say is that they will wait until their own world tournament is screwed up just to start looking for solutions. This is RIDICOLOUS.
Don't worry ClouD, it's always far easier to just attack the person that makes the argument than the argument itself. Sad to see there's still an abudance of whiny zergs lusting for some childish form of revenge, along the lines of "OMG YOUR RACE WAS OP SO LONG WHY CANT WE HAVE THE SAME ASDFASDFASDF" ... Because that's going to be better for the game than a change in design to make it more interesting and fair. Right.
I can see why DBro wants to wait until after WCS though. As long as a signifcant change in the right direction is made, I don't think it's a huge deal if it's now or in a few weeks' time. We're gonna have to wait and see now.
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On November 12 2012 04:10 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:06 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:00 aTnClouD wrote:
Yeah take more time, give more fame and money to undeserving players and take it away from hardworking ones. Perhaps it would be cool to send baldie and 50(per)cent a couple of red noses and fake green curly hair so they can be professional clowns without trying to hide it so hard. When terran was absurdly OP you never won anything either. Why do you assume I'm talking about myself. I always loathed how SC2 was designed and I never had enough passion to win stuff back then when it was all about who had the newest all in. This just adds up to the frustration I get when I realize how slow and incompetent SC2 designers are. Zerg has been a joke for months now and all they say is that they will wait until their own world tournament is screwed up just to start looking for solutions. This is RIDICOLOUS.
What would be RIDICOLOUS is change the units 2 weeks before a major tournament. With all strategies getting screwed like that who knows what will happen. And besides don't tell me you're angry cause your fellow hard working terrans aren't winning and you're completely altruistic.
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On November 12 2012 04:00 aTnClouD wrote:
Yeah take more time, give more fame and money to undeserving players and take it away from hardworking ones. Perhaps it would be cool to send baldie and 50(per)cent a couple of red noses and fake green curly hair so they can be professional clowns without trying to hide it so hard. All you seem to do is whine in these shitty threads. Didn't you say you were going to quit if you didn't achieve anything in the near future? Get off the forums and go play some SC, dude.
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On November 12 2012 04:16 Shinespark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:10 aTnClouD wrote:On November 12 2012 04:06 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:00 aTnClouD wrote:
Yeah take more time, give more fame and money to undeserving players and take it away from hardworking ones. Perhaps it would be cool to send baldie and 50(per)cent a couple of red noses and fake green curly hair so they can be professional clowns without trying to hide it so hard. When terran was absurdly OP you never won anything either. Why do you assume I'm talking about myself. I always loathed how SC2 was designed and I never had enough passion to win stuff back then when it was all about who had the newest all in. This just adds up to the frustration I get when I realize how slow and incompetent SC2 designers are. Zerg has been a joke for months now and all they say is that they will wait until their own world tournament is screwed up just to start looking for solutions. This is RIDICOLOUS. What would be RIDICOLOUS is change the units 2 weeks before a major tournament. With all strategies getting screwed like that who knows what will happen. And besides don't tell me you're angry cause your fellow hard working terrans aren't winning and you're completely altruistic.
That would actually make some pretty fun games !
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On November 12 2012 02:45 c0sm0naut wrote:
"The majority of people on this website especially the older players with more RTS experience would tell you that the infestor is bad for Sc2 and bad for esports."
Nooooo ! BROFESTERS ARE KILLING ESPORTS ahah ! ... Yeah quake suffered a lot from the infestor ...
Well i mean yeah i think it makes for a "meh" game, but there's soooo many other things that should be changed / fixed that would make sc2 a much much better game than nerfing the infestor ...
... bad for "esports" seriously ahah
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On November 12 2012 04:10 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:06 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:00 aTnClouD wrote:
Yeah take more time, give more fame and money to undeserving players and take it away from hardworking ones. Perhaps it would be cool to send baldie and 50(per)cent a couple of red noses and fake green curly hair so they can be professional clowns without trying to hide it so hard. When terran was absurdly OP you never won anything either. Why do you assume I'm talking about myself. I always loathed how SC2 was designed and I never had enough passion to win stuff back then when it was all about who had the newest all in. This just adds up to the frustration I get when I realize how slow and incompetent SC2 designers are. Zerg has been a joke for months now and all they say is that they will wait until their own world tournament is screwed up just to start looking for solutions. This is RIDICOLOUS.
Because your statements have been extremely volatile and biased, lol.
Blizzard HAS been looking at solutions, the entire time! They're just giving the community TIME to come up with their own, as they made it clear several months ago and as they reaffirm to be clear now. The winrates never took any gigantic dips, so there was no urgency to patch it sooner. This is how balance patches SHOULD be happening: They give time to X to playout and see if it's really imbalanced or just a metagame that lasts for a month. X can't be solved over time, so they patch it. If you're confident it's broken then it WILL be fixed.
I don't know how you can be so upset when Blizzard has finally begun to approach balance with a much more appropriately slow caution, rather, no more instanerfs weeks after something appears OP -- JUST because your race is on the receiving end of it. No more kneejerk thor nerfs, which conversely comes at the cost of no more other instanerfs on other races in response to community/professional outcry.
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On November 12 2012 04:16 Shinespark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:10 aTnClouD wrote:On November 12 2012 04:06 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:00 aTnClouD wrote:
Yeah take more time, give more fame and money to undeserving players and take it away from hardworking ones. Perhaps it would be cool to send baldie and 50(per)cent a couple of red noses and fake green curly hair so they can be professional clowns without trying to hide it so hard. When terran was absurdly OP you never won anything either. Why do you assume I'm talking about myself. I always loathed how SC2 was designed and I never had enough passion to win stuff back then when it was all about who had the newest all in. This just adds up to the frustration I get when I realize how slow and incompetent SC2 designers are. Zerg has been a joke for months now and all they say is that they will wait until their own world tournament is screwed up just to start looking for solutions. This is RIDICOLOUS. What would be RIDICOLOUS is change the units 2 weeks before a major tournament. With all strategies getting screwed like that who knows what will happen. And besides don't tell me you're angry cause your fellow hard working terrans aren't winning and you're completely altruistic.
This is what makes me upset:
"- We are going to continue to watch games and gather data.
- We will discuss changes.
- We may try a balance map sometime after BWC."
So basically what they say is that they are waiting for WCS World Finals results to take a move. It's fine and it makes sense not to patch a game before a tournament but at least have the fucking answer ready when it's over.
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On November 12 2012 04:20 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:16 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:10 aTnClouD wrote:On November 12 2012 04:06 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:00 aTnClouD wrote:
Yeah take more time, give more fame and money to undeserving players and take it away from hardworking ones. Perhaps it would be cool to send baldie and 50(per)cent a couple of red noses and fake green curly hair so they can be professional clowns without trying to hide it so hard. When terran was absurdly OP you never won anything either. Why do you assume I'm talking about myself. I always loathed how SC2 was designed and I never had enough passion to win stuff back then when it was all about who had the newest all in. This just adds up to the frustration I get when I realize how slow and incompetent SC2 designers are. Zerg has been a joke for months now and all they say is that they will wait until their own world tournament is screwed up just to start looking for solutions. This is RIDICOLOUS. What would be RIDICOLOUS is change the units 2 weeks before a major tournament. With all strategies getting screwed like that who knows what will happen. And besides don't tell me you're angry cause your fellow hard working terrans aren't winning and you're completely altruistic. This is what makes me upset: "- We are going to continue to watch games and gather data. - We will discuss changes. - We may try a balance map sometime after BWC." So basically what they say is that they are waiting for WCS World Finals results to take a move. It's fine and it makes sense not to patch a game before a tournament but at least have the fucking answer ready when it's over.
How do you know they don't have an answer yet? There's probably a fix already implemented but will not put it on until after the tournament.
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That statement made by DB is just covering up for the shit fest that is going to be the WCS. Enjoy watching endless PvP PvZ ZvZ
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On November 12 2012 04:20 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:16 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:10 aTnClouD wrote:On November 12 2012 04:06 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:00 aTnClouD wrote:
Yeah take more time, give more fame and money to undeserving players and take it away from hardworking ones. Perhaps it would be cool to send baldie and 50(per)cent a couple of red noses and fake green curly hair so they can be professional clowns without trying to hide it so hard. When terran was absurdly OP you never won anything either. Why do you assume I'm talking about myself. I always loathed how SC2 was designed and I never had enough passion to win stuff back then when it was all about who had the newest all in. This just adds up to the frustration I get when I realize how slow and incompetent SC2 designers are. Zerg has been a joke for months now and all they say is that they will wait until their own world tournament is screwed up just to start looking for solutions. This is RIDICOLOUS. What would be RIDICOLOUS is change the units 2 weeks before a major tournament. With all strategies getting screwed like that who knows what will happen. And besides don't tell me you're angry cause your fellow hard working terrans aren't winning and you're completely altruistic. This is what makes me upset: "- We are going to continue to watch games and gather data. - We will discuss changes. - We may try a balance map sometime after BWC." So basically what they say is that they are waiting for WCS World Finals results to take a move. It's fine and it makes sense not to patch a game before a tournament but at least have the fucking answer ready when it's over.
It's true that they took too long. They always take too long. Terran was OP for the longest time, now Zerg is OP and we all know it and they still take too long. But you whine too much and I suggest you stop before you completely destroy your fanbase.
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France13021 Posts
On November 12 2012 04:15 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:00 aTnClouD wrote:
Yeah take more time, give more fame and money to undeserving players and take it away from hardworking ones. Perhaps it would be cool to send baldie and 50(per)cent a couple of red noses and fake green curly hair so they can be professional clowns without trying to hide it so hard. Maybe come back when you can beat Goody in TvT. Unless T is overpowered. As far as Browder's response, it makes complete sense, and I don't see what else they could do. Considering it's only been very recently when Zerg has been super "OP" (as in >55% winrates on major competitions), and before that they were still about 50% in those same competitions, a knee jerk reaction would be dumb. Changing something before WCS would also screw most people over, because zergs wouldn't be able to adapt, anything which impacts non-zerg (e.g. buff to counters) would potentially screw up the other two matchups, and it would make it even worse than playing with current metagame balance. Maybe instead of bitching, people should experiment. And I don't just mean players, I mean competitions. If zerg is winning too much, look at the map pools being used and consider making some changes, or making new maps. Put in some maps which were biased against zerg to even it up. In many years of unpatched Broodwar, the racial balance was changed regularly through maps, maybe people should start thinking about doing that now, rather than just complaining.
Why should we not bitch? I mean before that ridiculous queen+ovie buff, TvZ was very doable for koreans terrans. Foreigners pros got trashed by zergs at that time too (except LucifroN but he is korean level) but top terrans were able to win against mid-tier koreans zergs, and it was around 50% vs top tier zergs (DRG vs MKP series at MLG were cool as well as Stephano vs aLive, MMA, MKP, etc...).
Changing the mappool won't really help, the patch made no sense whatsoever so the correct response would be reverting it but I guess blizzard won't do it because they would not admit they failed that hard.
Lol at the GoOdy comment, I would take losing almost every TvT vs GoOdy if I could 3-2 ForGG and only lose 2-3 against LucifroN  ).
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On November 12 2012 04:24 Shinespark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:20 aTnClouD wrote:On November 12 2012 04:16 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:10 aTnClouD wrote:On November 12 2012 04:06 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:00 aTnClouD wrote:
Yeah take more time, give more fame and money to undeserving players and take it away from hardworking ones. Perhaps it would be cool to send baldie and 50(per)cent a couple of red noses and fake green curly hair so they can be professional clowns without trying to hide it so hard. When terran was absurdly OP you never won anything either. Why do you assume I'm talking about myself. I always loathed how SC2 was designed and I never had enough passion to win stuff back then when it was all about who had the newest all in. This just adds up to the frustration I get when I realize how slow and incompetent SC2 designers are. Zerg has been a joke for months now and all they say is that they will wait until their own world tournament is screwed up just to start looking for solutions. This is RIDICOLOUS. What would be RIDICOLOUS is change the units 2 weeks before a major tournament. With all strategies getting screwed like that who knows what will happen. And besides don't tell me you're angry cause your fellow hard working terrans aren't winning and you're completely altruistic. This is what makes me upset: "- We are going to continue to watch games and gather data. - We will discuss changes. - We may try a balance map sometime after BWC." So basically what they say is that they are waiting for WCS World Finals results to take a move. It's fine and it makes sense not to patch a game before a tournament but at least have the fucking answer ready when it's over. It's true that they took too long. They always take too long. Terran was OP for the longest time, now Zerg is OP and we all know it and they still take too long. But you whine too much and I suggest you stop before you completely destroy your fanbase.
I wish I cared enough about pr to not express my opinion. Too bad it's still what I think.
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LOL. For once, I like Browder's reaction : "Chill out nerds ! I'm the one who's in charge, so you just wait and see and stop bitching !" :D
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On November 12 2012 04:24 Shinespark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:20 aTnClouD wrote:On November 12 2012 04:16 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:10 aTnClouD wrote:On November 12 2012 04:06 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:00 aTnClouD wrote:
Yeah take more time, give more fame and money to undeserving players and take it away from hardworking ones. Perhaps it would be cool to send baldie and 50(per)cent a couple of red noses and fake green curly hair so they can be professional clowns without trying to hide it so hard. When terran was absurdly OP you never won anything either. Why do you assume I'm talking about myself. I always loathed how SC2 was designed and I never had enough passion to win stuff back then when it was all about who had the newest all in. This just adds up to the frustration I get when I realize how slow and incompetent SC2 designers are. Zerg has been a joke for months now and all they say is that they will wait until their own world tournament is screwed up just to start looking for solutions. This is RIDICOLOUS. What would be RIDICOLOUS is change the units 2 weeks before a major tournament. With all strategies getting screwed like that who knows what will happen. And besides don't tell me you're angry cause your fellow hard working terrans aren't winning and you're completely altruistic. This is what makes me upset: "- We are going to continue to watch games and gather data. - We will discuss changes. - We may try a balance map sometime after BWC." So basically what they say is that they are waiting for WCS World Finals results to take a move. It's fine and it makes sense not to patch a game before a tournament but at least have the fucking answer ready when it's over. It's true that they took too long. They always take too long. Terran was OP for the longest time, now Zerg is OP and we all know it and they still take too long. But you whine too much and I suggest you stop before you completely destroy your fanbase.
Lol, they always take too long. Unless it's a nerf to the thor. Then they're too fast, right? Balance patches should be taking this long. It's the only way to thoroughly examine the merits of a possible imbalance by letting the best players argue for or against it the best way they can: results, which have no bias. If there was a genius that had the foresight to see the imbalance coming, then hire him immediately, but even with the best minds this is often unrealistic.
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On November 12 2012 02:42 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:40 CajunMan wrote:On November 12 2012 02:38 floor exercise wrote:
They are just going to opt for the least volatile change that will bring win percents closer together. They aren't gonna change the game or the way it's played, which is my real problem with Blizzard and HotS. They are so concerned with balancing the game they don't realize how boring the game itself has become Ya basically the biggest issue is if they change it too much Zerg will lose every fucking game all of a sudden its back to roach hydra every PvZ so we can get rofl stomped by ffs Yea because Zerg never wins against Protoss outside of BL Infestor.
No but how many compositions mid game include infestor? All expect Muta ling and toss are getting rly good against that. Roach ling without infestor is terrible past 10 min, roach hydra past 2 collossus gets demolished.
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On November 12 2012 04:15 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:10 aTnClouD wrote:On November 12 2012 04:06 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:00 aTnClouD wrote:
Yeah take more time, give more fame and money to undeserving players and take it away from hardworking ones. Perhaps it would be cool to send baldie and 50(per)cent a couple of red noses and fake green curly hair so they can be professional clowns without trying to hide it so hard. When terran was absurdly OP you never won anything either. Why do you assume I'm talking about myself. I always loathed how SC2 was designed and I never had enough passion to win stuff back then when it was all about who had the newest all in. This just adds up to the frustration I get when I realize how slow and incompetent SC2 designers are. Zerg has been a joke for months now and all they say is that they will wait until their own world tournament is screwed up just to start looking for solutions. This is RIDICOLOUS. Don't worry ClouD, it's always far easier to just attack the person that makes the argument than the argument itself. Sad to see there's still an abudance of whiny zergs lusting for some childish form of revenge, along the lines of "OMG YOUR RACE WAS OP SO LONG WHY CANT WE HAVE THE SAME ASDFASDFASDF" ... Because that's going to be better for the game than a change in design to make it more interesting and fair. Right. I can see why DBro wants to wait until after WCS though. As long as a signifcant change in the right direction is made, I don't think it's a huge deal if it's now or in a few weeks' time. We're gonna have to wait and see now.
BWC won't be too much affected. In PvZ skilled Protoss still have a lot to work with, to dismantle inferior Zerg players. And we have the undoubted best 3 Protoss Players in the world (Rain, Parting, Creator) @ BWC while we only got Curious at the zerg front here(sorry EU Zergs, you just don't play in that league!). I don't expect these 4 players to get eliminated if not by each other. So there will be some decent protoss representation in the top ranks of that tournament.
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On November 12 2012 04:20 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 04:16 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:10 aTnClouD wrote:On November 12 2012 04:06 Shinespark wrote:On November 12 2012 04:00 aTnClouD wrote:
Yeah take more time, give more fame and money to undeserving players and take it away from hardworking ones. Perhaps it would be cool to send baldie and 50(per)cent a couple of red noses and fake green curly hair so they can be professional clowns without trying to hide it so hard. When terran was absurdly OP you never won anything either. Why do you assume I'm talking about myself. I always loathed how SC2 was designed and I never had enough passion to win stuff back then when it was all about who had the newest all in. This just adds up to the frustration I get when I realize how slow and incompetent SC2 designers are. Zerg has been a joke for months now and all they say is that they will wait until their own world tournament is screwed up just to start looking for solutions. This is RIDICOLOUS. What would be RIDICOLOUS is change the units 2 weeks before a major tournament. With all strategies getting screwed like that who knows what will happen. And besides don't tell me you're angry cause your fellow hard working terrans aren't winning and you're completely altruistic. This is what makes me upset: "- We are going to continue to watch games and gather data. - We will discuss changes. - We may try a balance map sometime after BWC." So basically what they say is that they are waiting for WCS World Finals results to take a move. It's fine and it makes sense not to patch a game before a tournament but at least have the fucking answer ready when it's over.
Probably going to revert any changes if a Terran wins, like during IEM Cologne.
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EPT
