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Cyro
United Kingdom20326 Posts
On November 11 2012 15:34 Wolvmatt. wrote: The infestor isn't imbalanced. On September 6 2012 05:52 Wolymatt. wrote: I don't really play starcraft anymore Every single post you make is whining about stuff. | ||
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MrJoKer
France232 Posts
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petrox
Australia320 Posts
On November 11 2012 20:32 imPermanenCe wrote: Hadn't they tested projectile fungal before, and it sucked? And not Neuralling massive units makes the spell close to useless I think. Immortals and tanks will be neuralled then, I guess. The rest could all be decent options. it'd be nice if tanks were able to crush forcefields  + Show Spoiler + tanks aren't massive | ||
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Levi
Germany45 Posts
The thing with fungal becoming a projectile only solves TvZ, because PDD can block Fungal then and it's a war between PDD and Fungal, but PDD would be incredible more energyefficent, which buffs Terren incredible and dosn't solves anything in PVZ the higher energycost for Infested Terrans is also a good option imo. also they could change it, that it either effects ground or air units(decides of witch units are the most in the area). But thats probably too difficult to understand it isn't the "easy to learn hard to master" way. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20326 Posts
Its a t3 unit, more expensive than the ultralisk - which is 6 supply and also cannot shoot up. I think infestors are slightly overtuned, but regardless of that, as a 2 food unit they are extremely powerful - if templar or ghosts were similarly massable i would be worried because spellcasters are extremely food efficient and not designed to be used that way. To sum up, i think infestors are a little powerful as spellcasters regardless of cost/food, but that only adds to the already existing problem of BL+Infestor+Spine, firstly that they have obvious weaknesses - but their strengh's are too strong, and its too much - a speed nerf to the infestor for example would do nothing because reducing the mobility of an already immobile army does nothing to help you fight it - we can already bypass it and harass but its not enough. Primarily, though, food. 2 supply infestors, 4 supply brood lords and food-free moveable spine crawlers lets zerg create a death blob of as much as 2-3x the army value of the protoss - I think if you could compete with that, it would be broken - but zerg cannot be allowed to put so much money into a mobile army. 20 brood lords with a spine forest and 30 infestors under them is unbeatable via any composition. Ground with 50 gateways to instantly replace your army can barely touch it, and air is all in - when your fleet gets fungalled and dies to dozens or 100+ IT's you cant replace it and die - It is unbeatable and you cant elimination race it, starve it out, and due to the current state of PvZ, prevent it. In fact for a long term solution if there would never be any more balance patches i would even suggest abandoning the FFE and looking for other ways to play, but if zerg plays even close to perfectly i see no way to win in the current meta. I dont intend this as balance whine, just analysis. I am far from a good player, but i dont think anything here could be disagreed on in a massive way. | ||
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CrtBalorda
Slovenia704 Posts
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
On November 11 2012 21:51 Cyro wrote: Id like to see infestor supply changed to 3, IT's to cost 30-40 energy instead of 25, maybe a slight nerf to burrowed move speed and/or visibility, maybe small fungal range nerf (9+(1) makes it extremely powerful without requiring support or an army to land them often, i think opponents of all 3 races have to be just a little TOO careful to not get caught out by such a long range root that can be chained if you fuck up for a split second) and then regardless of what is done with the infestor, a brood lord supply change to 5 or 6. Everything from here based on current maps and their balance: Its a t3 unit, more expensive than the ultralisk - which is 6 supply and also cannot shoot up. I think infestors are slightly overtuned, but regardless of that, as a 2 food unit they are extremely powerful - if templar or ghosts were similarly massable i would be worried because spellcasters are extremely food efficient and not designed to be used that way. To sum up, i think infestors are a little powerful as spellcasters regardless of cost/food, but that only adds to the already existing problem of BL+Infestor+Spine, firstly that they have obvious weaknesses - but their strengh's are too strong, and its too much - a speed nerf to the infestor for example would do nothing because reducing the mobility of an already immobile army does nothing to help you fight it - we can already bypass it and harass but its not enough. Primarily, though, food. 2 supply infestors, 4 supply brood lords and food-free moveable spine crawlers lets zerg create a death blob of as much as 2-3x the army value of the protoss - I think if you could compete with that, it would be broken - but zerg cannot be allowed to put so much money into a mobile army. 20 brood lords with a spine forest and 30 infestors under them is unbeatable via any composition. Ground with 50 gateways to instantly replace your army can barely touch it, and air is all in - when your fleet gets fungalled and dies to dozens or 100+ IT's you cant replace it and die - It is unbeatable and you cant elimination race it, starve it out, and due to the current state of PvZ, prevent it. In fact for a long term solution if there would never be any more balance patches i would even suggest abandoning the FFE and looking for other ways to play, but if zerg plays even close to perfectly i see no way to win in the current meta. I dont intend this as balance whine, just analysis. I am far from a good player, but i dont think anything here could be disagreed on in a massive way. I bolded the part that made me basically give up on late game PvZ. 2 base immortal all in every games working fine for me anyway. I think snare instead of immobilize would be a good start for changes..or increased supply to 3. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20326 Posts
On November 11 2012 21:36 petrox wrote: it'd be nice if tanks were able to crush forcefields + Show Spoiler + tanks aren't massive Terran can get tanks really early though, they are essentially tier 1.5(1.7?) You can have 2 tanks with siege mode at like 6:30-7:00 with a couple rax of marines and if you could disable forcefields it would mean too much. That kind of play is already a pretty hard counter to sentry heavy PvT expands (see GSL MVP vs HuK in ~august 2011 on dual sight, ro8 i think) and just in general being able to crush forcefields so early would be a big buff. Terrans would probably build 1-2 tanks with their 1raxFE-medivac push on the factory, or proxy one with a stim timing, etc. | ||
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
On November 11 2012 21:59 Cyro wrote: Terran can get tanks really early though, they are essentially tier 1.5(1.7?) You can have 2 tanks with siege mode at like 6:30-7:00 with a couple rax of marines and if you could disable forcefields it would mean too much. That kind of play is already a pretty hard counter to sentry heavy PvT expands (see GSL MVP vs HuK in ~august 2011 on dual sight, ro8 i think) and just in general being able to crush forcefields so early would be a big buff. Terrans would probably build 1-2 tanks with their 1raxFE-medivac push on the factory, or proxy one with a stim timing, etc. Using them to crush FFs would mean you would be caught unsieged though. A Terran army with only 1 sieged tank and 1 in tank mode is beatable for Protoss I would think. Also if you get siege mode as well you need double gas to get them that quickly, your marine count will not be very high. Just speculation though, don't intend to derail the thread by pursuing this discussion any further. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20326 Posts
On November 11 2012 22:06 S_SienZ wrote: Using them to crush FFs would mean you would be caught unsieged though. A Terran army with only 1 sieged tank and 1 in tank mode is beatable for Protoss I would think. Also if you get siege mode as well you need double gas to get them that quickly, your marine count will not be very high. If you go rax-fact-rax from 1 gas and build 1-2 tanks then siege mode and pull half a dozen scvs vs a 1gate expand he cant exactly attack move into your force and kill you when you arrive and even an unsieged tank is powerful, in fact if it is held its usually after a minute or so of fucking around with bunkers and tanks shooting at your nexus if the map's natural doesnt have a ramp. Im not 1000% sure on details though, its been a while since i played or watched either of those styles. I just meant that tanks already remove sentries from viability in certain early game situations, and even further buffs against the sentry would be out of place IMO. Apologies for derail infestor thread, thought it was general balance for a few minutes | ||
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Fusa
Canada148 Posts
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
On November 11 2012 22:43 Fusa wrote: I have to disagree with everything in the OP, if you would like to just delete the only spell caster zerg has then implement any one of the proposed changes and you will see (0) infestors in play. 3 food? ... projectile?? LOL, no roots? might as well never make an infestor again. Stahp. Seriously, you're being dramatic. Don't de-rail this thread, some of these are actual legitimate suggestions that should be considered, people aren't going to stop making infestors if any of the changes you specifically mentioned actually occured. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
It definatly should be 3 suply btw, i thought it already was and realy suprised that its only 2 suply. Raven might be 3 suply as well, i dont think anny terran would care lol. If they make fungal slow (not sure this is needed) they should make it so that you still take at least all damage from the fungal, so not like you can move out of the damage zone like with storm, else fungal would be way to weak i think. | ||
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sorrowptoss
Canada1431 Posts
On November 08 2012 18:38 Artline wrote: - Fungal should be a projectile. EMP and Storm both make sense but fungal just occurs out of nowhere. I'm pretty sure Storm isn't a projectile. According to your definition of "occurring out of nowhere", Storm pretty much does that. | ||
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Puritas
Germany39 Posts
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
But Z really needs a power unit to compromise if infestor is going to be made into a true support caster... | ||
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Consummate
Australia191 Posts
Projectile fungal 3 supply Slow instead of snare That should balance it perfectly | ||
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
On November 11 2012 23:49 Psychobabas wrote: Personally I find it most likely that Blizzard would make fungal slow rather than root units. .. Or deny any problem with the infestor until we got HotS. I'm sure people are just as excited for the widow mine and firebat as I were for the dark templar when BW came. Blizzard loves that cyclical balance. | ||
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D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
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