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I want to be as clear as I can on our current position of the Infestor in Wings of Liberty.
- We are not going to make any changes before BWC.
- We are going to continue to watch games and gather data.
- We will discuss changes.
- We may try a balance map sometime after BWC.
- We may try some changes in Swarm Beta, using that as a test-bed for stuff we could bring back into Wings of Liberty.
At this time I could see these as possible outcomes:
- We nerf Infested Terrans, Fungal Growth or both.
- We make a change to the Infestor (hit points, movement speed, etc.).
- We do a change to how the unit is designed (add a projectile back to Fungal Growth, increase the visibility of burrowed units while they are moving, etc.).
- We buff some of the potential counters (EMP, Feedback).
- We do a combination of any of the above.
- We see something that makes us decide that doing nothing is the right answer. Obviously if this occurs we would share this data or reasoning.
For those of you who believe that this is too slow a response, I am sorry.
-Dustin Browder
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On November 12 2012 02:08 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +I want to be as clear as I can on our current position of the Infestor in Wings of Liberty.
- We are not going to make any changes before BWC.
- We are going to continue to watch games and gather data.
- We will discuss changes.
- We may try a balance map sometime after BWC.
- We may try some changes in Swarm Beta, using that as a test-bed for stuff we could bring back into Wings of Liberty.
At this time I could see these as possible outcomes:
- We nerf Infested Terrans, Fungal Growth or both.
- We make a change to the Infestor (hit points, movement speed, etc.).
- We do a change to how the unit is designed (add a projectile back to Fungal Growth, increase the visibility of burrowed units while they are moving, etc.).
- We buff some of the potential counters (EMP, Feedback).
- We do a combination of any of the above.
- We see something that makes us decide that doing nothing is the right answer. Obviously if this occurs we would share this data or reasoning.
For those of you who believe that this is too slow a response, I am sorry. -Dustin Browder
Good. I think it is fine that they won't tweak until after BWC, wouldn't be fair to the players. But at least it will be looked at before HoTS. Dec and Jan are actually good time for changes if they are needed since that is the low season for tournaments.
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On November 12 2012 02:08 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +I want to be as clear as I can on our current position of the Infestor in Wings of Liberty.
- We are not going to make any changes before BWC.
- We are going to continue to watch games and gather data.
- We will discuss changes.
- We may try a balance map sometime after BWC.
- We may try some changes in Swarm Beta, using that as a test-bed for stuff we could bring back into Wings of Liberty.
At this time I could see these as possible outcomes:
- We nerf Infested Terrans, Fungal Growth or both.
- We make a change to the Infestor (hit points, movement speed, etc.).
- We do a change to how the unit is designed (add a projectile back to Fungal Growth, increase the visibility of burrowed units while they are moving, etc.).
- We buff some of the potential counters (EMP, Feedback).
- We do a combination of any of the above.
- We see something that makes us decide that doing nothing is the right answer. Obviously if this occurs we would share this data or reasoning.
For those of you who believe that this is too slow a response, I am sorry. -Dustin Browder
Sounds fair.
This might sound dumb, but the late game for zerg currently has to be zerg favored, because currently, 2 base immortal pushes from Protoss are to a degree, overpowered. Some Korean Protosses even brag that the only time they lose with 2 base pushes, is when they make a mistake, and it doesn't matter how good the Zerg plays. I honestly think the reason Zerg stay in competition with Protoss, is because some Protoss will try to compete with Zerg in the late game, and we all know how that goes down.
I think ZvP is kind of broken at the moment, but I don't think Zerg is the only issue.
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BL should be 5 supply while Infestor should be 3 supply and have a 50-75% Fungal snare, that would be the least damaging nerf to the overall meta by mostly affecting the end game. It would fix ZvP, ZvT, and even ZvZ. If Zerg then seems too weak to certain compositions, they can look at the Hydra/Ultra/Baneling and see what they can do. But as far as I can tell, Muta/Bling/Ling and Roach/Ling have been handling things just fine, it's just Infestors handle things even easier.
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Halve the duration of ITs should be a change. I feel like once they are thrown and the battle is decided (in the Zerg's favor), they shouldn't be allowed to remain for another 15 seconds to shamble around and restrict movement or pick off a base. If all the Z player has is infestors after the battle is over, they should have to expend another round of ITs to do any further damage.
In this same vein, shorter duration IT's should allow the other player to back off from an engagement if necessary and wait a shorter amount of time before being able to engage again. This would punish the infestor and prevent it from being the primary core unit if it can't consistently rely on having energy for ITs.
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On November 12 2012 02:24 Cloak wrote:
BL should be 5 supply while Infestor should be 3 supply and have a 50-75% Fungal snare, that would be the least damaging nerf to the overall meta by mostly affecting the end game. It would fix ZvP, ZvT, and even ZvZ. If Zerg then seems too weak to certain compositions, they can look at the Hydra/Ultra/Baneling and see what they can do. But as far as I can tell, Muta/Bling/Ling and Roach/Ling have been handling things just fine, it's just Infestors handle things even easier.
Personally, I'd rather they nerf the units than increase their supply.  units should be supply-lite but weaker.
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You forgot an important change (who would probably be needed): increase Infested terran energy cost to 30.
Moonglade, QXC, Major seem to think it could be a good idea.
What would it change? An Infestor with max energy could only spawn 6 Infested terran instead of 8.
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On November 12 2012 02:27 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 02:24 Cloak wrote:
BL should be 5 supply while Infestor should be 3 supply and have a 50-75% Fungal snare, that would be the least damaging nerf to the overall meta by mostly affecting the end game. It would fix ZvP, ZvT, and even ZvZ. If Zerg then seems too weak to certain compositions, they can look at the Hydra/Ultra/Baneling and see what they can do. But as far as I can tell, Muta/Bling/Ling and Roach/Ling have been handling things just fine, it's just Infestors handle things even easier. Personally, I'd rather they nerf the units than increase their supply. units should be supply-lite but weaker.
True, I was considering balance elegance over unit identity. Terran seems to have the cheapest, most expendable units these days. If they can hit the lategame without affecting the early/mid, they could remove Protoss Vortex. But, as of right now, it's Vortex or GG, lategame supply efficiency is too strong.
Edit: If I were to keep the supply:
50-75% snare Fungal.
30 energy IT,
Spawn rate/damage nerf to BL. 4 supply flying Colossus too good.
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United Kingdom20327 Posts
Good, but this doesnt fix lategame. Infestors are overtuned - that is one issue - but it only compounds the other, primary one - Zerg can put so much money into a death blob because of supply efficiency and mobile spine/spore crawlers that no other race and particularly protoss can compete in any way.
I think whatever happens, the brood lord needs a supply change from 4 to 5-6, and mobile spinecrawler forest would need looking at in some way.
We need either a big nerf to infested terrans (stats on eggs, IT's themselves, energy cost to 30-40) OR fungal needs to not root at the very least air units, so he cant know >FOR A FACT that he has permanantly trapped your air fleet and drop 50-100+ IT's as you cannot escape under any circumstance.
Interceptors should not be 1-2 shot by fungal regardless of what happens and carrier build time at 120 seconds is too high and i think it should be lowered to ~100 seconds or even a touch lower.
All of these are reasonable and thought out changes.
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make infestors smaller so that emp can hit more of them.
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Dont change it; increase emp range on ghosts.
Remove vortex, add a AoE long range EMP to mothership. big aoe, as big as vortex or recall even.
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On November 12 2012 03:36 Snake.69 wrote:
Dont change it; increase emp range on ghosts.
Remove vortex, add a AoE long range EMP to mothership. big aoe, as big as vortex or recall even.
hmm interesting, will have to think on that hard to see what the implications of that would be,.
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I don´t think that increasing the supply costs of the infestor would be a purposeful change. The only thing that prevents the Zergs from building mass infestor are the 150 gas cost per unit. Zerg players would build more overlords, just like Stephano does before his roach all-in.
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On November 09 2012 03:01 Iodem wrote:Gonna repost what I suggested in another thread. I think infestors should have their model size reduced. The way zergs are able to just ball them up without fear of EMP/splash is kinda sad compared to the way ghosts and HTs are. It encourages spreading, and somewhat buffs EMP for terran by letting it hit a higher number of infestors per cast. One EMP can ruin a protoss army if he doesn't split his HTs. Clumped up Ghosts can get destroyed by colossus. It should be the same for zerg with infestors. Poll: Reduce infestor model sizeYes (20) 57% No (15) 43% 35 total votes Your vote: Reduce infestor model size (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Another idea of mine would be to reduce their off-creep movespeed.
Gonna bump my poll since it seems to have grown some support...
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slight nerf the fungal and hard nerf the infested terrans
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In the past Blizzard made fungal not hit air and people complained. Would that be a viable change now? People complain that they can't harass zerg anymore, fungal not hitting air would allow air units to do their job against broodlords and prevent the infestor from hard countering almost every unit in the game.
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Here is another idea as mentioned above. Its based on that going for a tech tree should make u weaker to another tech tree. Since zerg got spire, hydra den i don't see why infestors also should counter air even more effective then what the hydra tech or spire tech does. I love to see the old meta where protoss could force zerg make hydras with star gate tech . This also opens up that void rays,carriers,raven and vikings can be used more effectively against brodlord tech. Right now infested terrans are like mini hydras, isn't that enough anti air for the infestor tech .
Poll: Fungal growth don't affect Air UnitsYes (10) 71% No (4) 29% 14 total votes Your vote: Fungal growth don't affect Air Units (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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Infested Terrans really, really need a nerf. They are a huge part of the problem when paired with Fungal, they should either not be given upgrades (so they stay at 0/0) or their eggs should be able to be killed fast.
If Fungal were to be nerfed, i would be fine with it still rooting ground units, but it should just slow down Air units. This would still be beatable, and might actually inspire a bit more hydra play or at least more spire units than infestors as anit-air.
It would allow Air to actually be viable vs Zerg again, as right now Phoenix, Interceptors, Vikings, Mutas and yes, even Banshees fall ridiculously to Fungal. You get grabbed once and you die, this is overpowered, air units should not have such a stupid weakness.
Most of all, I think Pathogen Glands should be nerfed, by adding 20-30sec more time to it's research.
This would at least make up for the weakness Protoss has since Khydarin Amulet was removed, and it would add strategy as to whether to get the Pathogen glands right away, or get a few Infestors out faster. Right now it's "always start path glands asap" for Zergs, whereas adding more time to it's research would require a decision as to put it off for a few fast infestors.
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How would I change zerg?
1.Make uprooted spines/spores not count for the building counter. This means that a protoss could kite the zerg around the map with mother ship recall and hide the pylon. Also base trades are fun to watch but it could lead to draws where the zerg and protoss just sit on their last building until the draw counter ticks down.
2. make the mothership immune to neural this would allow the toss to send the mothershiparound for possible recall point without the risk of being taken out.
3. Make fungal not snare interceptors. Watching 10 infestors chain fungal 60 interceptors is one of the worst things in the game. The spell can keep its damage vs interceptors but they should be able to retreat.
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On November 12 2012 07:31 Anomi wrote:Here is another idea as mentioned above. Its based on that going for a tech tree should make u weaker to another tech tree. Since zerg got spire, hydra den i don't see why infestors also should counter air even more effective then what the hydra tech or spire tech does. I love to see the old meta where protoss could force zerg make hydras with star gate tech . This also opens up that void rays,carriers,raven and vikings can be used more effectively against brodlord tech. Right now infested terrans are like mini hydras, isn't that enough anti air for the infestor tech . Poll: Fungal growth don't affect Air UnitsYes (10) 71% No (4) 29% 14 total votes Your vote: Fungal growth don't affect Air Units (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Yes, if there's one thing Zerg has too much of, it's anti-air. Their compositions will totally not be absolute shit once they integrate hydras into them.
Hint: They tried this before, and it didn't work for a reason.
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EPT
