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In warcraft 3, there was a unit called the Necromancer. That unit was a tier 2 caster for 2 supply, and it had the ability to move faster in situations due to Unholy Aura (as opposed to creep). It produced summoned units (Skeletons) at a comparable mana cost to the energy cost of Infested Terrans, but it had a few serious restrictions:
1. Every race had access to strong AoE dispel abilities, so they could kill a big group of skeletons for a low cost and a minor (if any) deviation from their typical composition. You pay 75 mana per pair of skeletons; they pay 75 mana for one Dispel and AoE 8 skeletons. That was an effective counter. There were also a bunch of really strong anti-caster units, since they figured out that the game was really warped around casters and they had to do something about that with their expansion. In fact, the Night Elf worker could actually suicide itself to cast an AoE dispel that also drained mana from units within the AoE. Could you imagine the game changing if you could pop a Drone to dispel a storm-sized AoE, removing Infested Terrans, Broodlings, Fungal Growth, and 50 Energy from Infestors underneath it? I'm not saying that Detonate should be given to any of the workers in Starcraft 2, but it would nice to see some Dispel if Zerg is allowed to have 3 different types of "infinite summon" units that only draw supply from the spellcaster (Infestor, Swarm Host, or Brood Lord).
2. You needed Corpses to produce Skeletons. They didn't come out of thin air. If you wanted to use a Skeleton-heavy army in the mid-late game, you had to bring a siege unit called the Meat Wagon with your army. Since the Meat Wagon and the Necromancer were both very brittle, a strong flank could just wreck a NecroWagon army (if someone actually risked building it; it was ultra-rare to see that army in tournament play). Basically, if you were making skeletons, you were either making them halfway through a fight (potentially after your opponent had the time to just kill your brittle Necromancers), or you were committing to a very difficult NecroWagon tech path. That's what it took to use that unit as a summon generator in major armies.
3. You could only have a maximum of 24 skeletons on the map. Period. You couldn't keep making them and have an army of 30 Necromancers and 100+ skeletons; after about 6-8 Necromancers you just didn't need any more. With 6, you could cast Raise Dead twice and have a full set of 24 Skeletons. This is probably the biggest lesson we can take from this older game, to apply to the Infestor. Want to deal with the supply limit issue without giving summoned units actual supply costs? Just have a maximum count of Infested Terrans.
4. Raise Dead produced melee units until you got to tier 3 and researched Skeletal Mastery, at which point each cast would instead produce 1 melee unit and 1 ranged unit. And the melee unit did garbage DPS by the standards of that game. So you could have 12 tanky melee units and 12 decent ranged units (24 in total) maximum from Necromancers.
Maybe this can offer up some perspective about how the Infested Terran spell compares to a major predecessor from a relatively recent Blizzard RTS game. Food for thought, if nothing else.
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Maybe make fungal so that an unit has to be targeted with it, and it only effects the units on the level of the target (ground OR air).
it wouldn't solve all the problems but I think it's silly that you can kill 10 vikings and 23marines together with 3 fungals
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On November 12 2012 17:56 ineversmile wrote:
2. You needed Corpses to produce Skeletons. They didn't come out of thin air. If you wanted to use a Skeleton-heavy army in the mid-late game, you had to bring a siege unit called the Meat Wagon with your army. Since the Meat Wagon and the Necromancer were both very brittle, a strong flank could just wreck a NecroWagon army (if someone actually risked building it; it was ultra-rare to see that army in tournament play). Basically, if you were making skeletons, you were either making them halfway through a fight (potentially after your opponent had the time to just kill your brittle Necromancers), or you were committing to a very difficult NecroWagon tech path. That's what it took to use that unit as a summon generator in major armies.
That´s a nice insight from WC3. How about you have to tribute a zerglin for an infested terran? Or the infestor has to harvest larva and keep them to produce limited amount of IT (one per larva).
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What do you think about make Fungal slow AIR and freeze GROUND or simillar freeze LIght/ Biogical units and slow Armored and Psionic
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Personally I'd be glad to see the following changes:
1) definetely: make fungal affect both enemy and own units
2) probably: make fungal slow targets down gradually, so you can't stop and chain phoenixes for example
3) maybe: make infestor 3 supply
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On November 12 2012 19:02 Big-t wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 17:56 ineversmile wrote:
2. You needed Corpses to produce Skeletons. They didn't come out of thin air. If you wanted to use a Skeleton-heavy army in the mid-late game, you had to bring a siege unit called the Meat Wagon with your army. Since the Meat Wagon and the Necromancer were both very brittle, a strong flank could just wreck a NecroWagon army (if someone actually risked building it; it was ultra-rare to see that army in tournament play). Basically, if you were making skeletons, you were either making them halfway through a fight (potentially after your opponent had the time to just kill your brittle Necromancers), or you were committing to a very difficult NecroWagon tech path. That's what it took to use that unit as a summon generator in major armies.
That´s a nice insight from WC3. How about you have to tribute a zerglin for an infested terran? Or the infestor has to harvest larva and keep them to produce limited amount of IT (one per larva).
That's ridiculous, you'd need an extra hatch or 2 + queens to make IT useful.
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On November 12 2012 20:38 Giku wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 19:02 Big-t wrote:On November 12 2012 17:56 ineversmile wrote:
2. You needed Corpses to produce Skeletons. They didn't come out of thin air. If you wanted to use a Skeleton-heavy army in the mid-late game, you had to bring a siege unit called the Meat Wagon with your army. Since the Meat Wagon and the Necromancer were both very brittle, a strong flank could just wreck a NecroWagon army (if someone actually risked building it; it was ultra-rare to see that army in tournament play). Basically, if you were making skeletons, you were either making them halfway through a fight (potentially after your opponent had the time to just kill your brittle Necromancers), or you were committing to a very difficult NecroWagon tech path. That's what it took to use that unit as a summon generator in major armies.
That´s a nice insight from WC3. How about you have to tribute a zerglin for an infested terran? Or the infestor has to harvest larva and keep them to produce limited amount of IT (one per larva). That's ridiculous, you'd need an extra hatch or 2 + queens to make IT useful.
I don´t see that as a problem since zergs don´t have such a big larva problem in the late game. And you can´t turtle with infestors anymore, if you lost a base.
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Northern Ireland27207 Posts
Also, at the OP one thing some of us would really like to see is that Fungal doesn't delete commands. It's ridiculous that you have to keep spamming move commands at affected units like stalkers or medivacs to try and retreat them, only to have them reset after every chained fungal.
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-->Make fungal growth a strong slow instead of root. Or additionally make it to have a projectile as well. But it must DEFINATELY silence spell casting (or even blink only) or else blink stalker balls will become unkillable. Remember the days of when P with 100 supply could kill Z with 160...
-->Make IT spam less useful for agressive play: IT have 0,5 supply means no more over 200 supply pushes or instantly increasing your "effective" supply in response to an enemy attack that nullifies all agression.
Also the range of IT throwing could be reduced a little, so that:
a) it's harder to have the infestors spam them simultaneously
b) make infestors more vulnerable so that zerg loses some in the process and has to remake them instead of massing them to 20+ numbers (for example to colossi or tank shots)
-->Infestors being 3 supply or being smaller so they die more easily to aoe and are able to be emp'd or stormed also seems reasonable but a combination of the 2 points above seems like the best option to me.
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I'd also love to see a balance change that helps with chain fungal = 100% chance of death. I'm not certain if the slow instead of no movement would do that though.
I wonder about a cool down on casting infested terran...?
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The best part is, if they nerfed the infestor, maybe it will make the StarCraft Master custom game extra difficult to beat for people trying it post patch.
Game breaking, yo.
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How about infestors for 2.5 limit? Zergs only could order it like zerlings, 2 at once for double price.
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if nuke and strom hit ur own units why not fungal grow????
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On November 12 2012 21:52 clwzim wrote:
if nuke and strom hit ur own units why not fungal grow????
Cause zerg has the units with the least range -__-. I really hope TL Mods start to ban people and delete threads like this.
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On November 12 2012 21:55 gingerfluffmuff wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 21:52 clwzim wrote:
if nuke and strom hit ur own units why not fungal grow???? Cause zerg has the units with the least range -__-. I really hope TL Mods start to ban people and delete threads like this.
Zealots -- Zergling
Banelings -- DT
Archon -- Roach
Am I missing something? Ultras are not affected by fungal due to frenzy.
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On November 12 2012 21:52 clwzim wrote:
if nuke and strom hit ur own units why not fungal grow????
this is such a stupid comment.
they don't serve the same purpose at all
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On November 12 2012 16:23 Ansinjunger wrote:
I don't see how making infestors 3 supply does much ultimately. So you have to build a few more overlords, and later zergs will begin the build 20 evo chambers and cancel trick and boom, they got that nifty old infestor count back.
Well, honestly, they should fix that. Kill the Drone if it unmorphs at 200 supply. Also your argument doesn't make sense, because Zergs are perfectly capable of doing it now too, so their exploit would be 50% more effective with 2 supply Infestors.
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grunching sorry, but i think the easiest two changes to implement are:
* reducing the unit size (by half at least)
* fungal no longer locks units down
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On November 13 2012 00:12 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 16:23 Ansinjunger wrote:
I don't see how making infestors 3 supply does much ultimately. So you have to build a few more overlords, and later zergs will begin the build 20 evo chambers and cancel trick and boom, they got that nifty old infestor count back. Well, honestly, they should fix that. Kill the Drone if it unmorphs at 200 supply. Also your argument doesn't make sense, because Zergs are perfectly capable of doing it now too, so their exploit would be 50% more effective with 2 supply Infestors.
Fixing a mechanic that has been the race for more then 10years? What?
Sure, but then terran buildings can't fly and protoss buildings don't have energy anymore.
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What if fungal was altered slightly so that on initial cast the units are slowed x amount gradually increasing the slow amount until the units are rooted for a brief period.
If someone is a moving their units then this change would have little impact, but with micro the damage from fungal can be mitigated.
It also would fit well with the name of the spell, as the fungal grows the unit slows.
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EPT
