[Poll] How Infestor could be changed? - Page 23

On November 10 2012 02:53 Henk wrote:


Yeah, good thing nobody listens to you then. Just because you don't play the matchup doesn't mean it can go to hell. Please, think rationally before you post.

On November 10 2012 02:56 S_SienZ wrote:

So you're saying one mirror match up trumps non-mirrors?

He's right in saying balance issues don't occur in mirrors, so what if you have to play Mutas. The matchup is volatile and coinflippy as fuck as it is already.

On November 10 2012 02:59 TheDwf wrote:

And exactly why would Mutalisk wars in ZvZ mean the ruin of the match-up? Is it currently more exciting to wonder at each battle which eggs are yours? Are Roaches wars that much more fascinating? I'm sorry but the ZvZ argument is quite derisory. It's like when you talk about reverting the Queen range buff and some Zerg comes and solemny says “but that would ruin ZvZ early game”. Yeah, OK...

On November 10 2012 03:21 Henk wrote:


Because right now you can do stuff like ling-inf-ultra, roach/hydra-inf, or ling muta. After the nerf of fungal only mutas would be viable, because these compositions don't have any anti-air other than the infestor. Hydras won't work vs mutas because they're just way, way too slow.

It's just idiotic. If fungal wouldn't hit air, storm shouldn't hit air either. Bring on ZvP mass muta After all, ruining one matchup isn't really a problem, right?

On November 10 2012 03:28 thehepp wrote:

Why the hell shouldn't storm hit air if fungal can't? That's like saying since zealots can't hit air marines shouldn't be able to hit air. Thor's can hit air, why can't my colossus hit air????

On November 10 2012 02:04 Jermstuddog wrote:


I personally don't have a problem with NP dissuading the use of high-powered single units. Mind Control was far worse in BW considering that ability was permanent and nobody was complaining about Dark Archon removing the viability of higher-tier units.

The effect of reducing high-powered units means that ZvX games should have a lot of small units running around on both sides. When SC2 was released, I didn't see a problem with Zerg lacking a high-powered unit of their own because they could always just borrow their opponents units as needed.

Since NP has been removed from viable use in standard ways, we have seen Zerg turn into this super turtle race because they are left without a way to engage the mid-late tier high-powered, costly units the other races have available to them (specifically thinking Protoss here). Zerg rushes for units that make free units and never engages with regular units because... well... they suck...

TLDR: I would much rather see an Infestor with a strong NP ability and a weak fungal ability than the current strong fungal, weak NP variant. I think that would be much more interesting to watch and play.

(Really, I don't get why anybody is talking about anything but fungal, is everyone so blinded by their hate that they can't see the clearly broken function of that spell?)

On November 10 2012 01:03 Henk wrote:


So every single ZvZ is mass muta? No thanks..

On November 10 2012 03:11 Assirra wrote:

You must confuse zvz with pvp.
There is a reason Nestea used and Life now is zvz monsters.
It is volatile but it is not not coinflippy at all.
Ruining 1 matchup for the sake of 2 others that maybe will be fixed is not the way it should go you know.

On November 10 2012 04:09 Caihead wrote:
I never even realized that fungals didn't hit friendly units, what other AOE doesn't hit friendly units?

On November 10 2012 04:10 TheDwf wrote:

Colossi, Hellions.

On November 10 2012 02:50 forsooth wrote:

it's interesting that suggesting Zerg players try difficult, micro-intensive styles that require lots of refinement and precise timing (you know, the same thing nearly every Terran and Protoss style revolve around) is always instantly decried as impossible. It's almost like using infestors for too long reduces your ability to play Starcraft.

On November 10 2012 04:05 Cloak wrote:


Most people are getting concerned about ITs because there's no upperbound to the usefulness of Infestors, at least Fungals have DRs in a given battle, seeing as the DPS can't be stacked, and the battle duration is usually less than 2-3 Fungal cycles. But, 100hp eggs that an Infestor can theoretically spawn 8 of each is useful even in the height of a ball vs. ball clash. Even 200 supply armies have a hard time with cost effectively trading with energy. This can be shown in the recent MLG tournaments, where your entire army can just be energy at this point. ITs are too energy efficient when you're forced to engage them, which is always, because that's precisely what Fungal does.

With the coming HotS Viper, I see a conflation of roles between Abduct and NP, seeing as they're both designed to eliminate single target threats. I personally think the Infestor with its AoE snare, and army spawning, should be enough utility on one unit, so I'd keep Abduct. If it's more because you want that single target eliminator on a ground unit, then you can swap Fungal or ITs with the Viper, but then they're a lot more vulnerable to the threats they're supposed to eliminate.

On November 10 2012 04:35 Jermstuddog wrote:


Thanks for the vote of confidence, but your strawman argument isn't going to work on me.

Let me give you some realistic, personal background: ZvP has historically been my worst MU. When I dominate Zerg and Terran alike, I will lose upwards of 70% or more of my ZvP games... that is... until I stopped being stubborn and started playing more with the infestor.

Here are some of my common problems when I use non-infestor based armies (trying to keep it as short as possible):

Zerg has no unit that really COUNTERS the Stalker. Roaches lose in equal supply, Lings are good if they can get adequate surface area, but Protoss has enough tools to mitigate ling surrounds, Brood Lords, Mutas, Ultralisks, none of these win cost-effectively vs Stalkers in a straight-up fight. The best part is that Stalkers are about 80% as mobile as Mutalisks, which Blizzard has already shown up they think are too powerful in the ZvP MU, but still... Zerg doesn't get a unit like the Phoenix is to the Mutalisk or the Immortal is to the Roach. So we lock Stalkers down with Fungal and watch die slowly, from a nice, safe distance.

Zerg doesn't really have anything that COUNTERS the Colossus. Same story, different problem. Colossus have 9 range (compared to the Roach's 4 or the Zergling's 0), any decent Protoss will have plenty of ground units to keep Roaches/Lings at a harmless distance while the Colossus pounds out 150+ collective damage per shot to the Zerg army. The go-to argument every Protoss player presents is "CORRUPTORS, NOOB!!!" but really... let me go back to my age old argument. Corruptors do less DPS-per-supply to Colossi than Stalkers. Remember all that talk Protoss players like to throw around about how bad of a unit the Stalker is? Well, imagine if they cost 2x as much gas, didn't have blink, and couldn't target ground units... yeah... that's what you're suggesting is my counter to the Colossus.

****Note - If you played SC2 right after the fungal change, Infestor/Ling armies were found to be incredibly effective in mid-game ZvP due to the lockdown from Fungal and NP on colossi. It was nice, shit, it was OP. Zerg could lock down the entire Protoss army and trade away Minerals for high-gas-cost units. Why weren't Zergs doing this before the fungal change? Simple: Infestors weren't viable until that point for the same reason that corruptors suck. Spending 1k gas to counter 1 Colossus and then immediately losing to the 40 Stalkers accompanying that Colossus is not a winning strategy.

Zerg DOES have counters to Force Field, but they're not really good vs anything else. Baneling drops and burrow roaches come to mind immediately. Unfortunately, neither one of those are really useful vs Blinking Stalker armies that are available by the same point in the game. If Protoss is smart enough to bring an observer for the roaches or simply spread out for the bling drops, they just won't be useful (this is why we don't see either one of these used regularly).

Mutalisks suck. When I use them and win, I feel like a badass. Unfortunately, Stalkers trade well enough vs Mutalisks and have the mobility to hold off almost all harassment if they have blink. I didn't have a problem with this, it was still my go-to strategy until the Phoenix buff. Then I played a few games vs blind phoenix and realized that mutas are generally a bad tech choice in mid-game ZvP. With their new-found +2 range, a handful of phoenix really can lock down a muta flock 2-3x their size with impunity. And it's not like they're worthless otherwise, the phoenix is probably the best harassment unit Protoss has in SC2. Without viable Mutalisks, I am forced back into trying to fight the Protoss triangle of bullshit. Colossus on top of Stalkers behind force fields.

Ultralisks are a fucking waste of money.

Hydralisks are the fastest way to throw ANY ZvP regardless of Protoss' unit composition.

Fail, fail, fail.

Sure, I could play well and win some, but then the next game I would play equally well and get absolutely crushed by good force fields or proper unit control.

Then I gave up and started using Infestors (rather recently too, only about 1 month ago). It's a completely different world. Engagements happen on MY terms, not my opponents. I can defend against mid-game timing pushes. I am not depending on my opponent just being fucking terrible at this game. I get to micro instead of click and pray. And best of all, my infestors immediately lend themselves to my Brood Lord army when I get to that point in the game. It just feels better all around.

So talk shit about me being a bad player and all. Have fun with that, hopefully it gets you somewhere. But I fucking tried... I tried for over a year to make non-infestors work. It doesn't. Non-infestor is only as good as your opponent is bad, and that is no way to play (or design) any RTS game.

On November 10 2012 04:43 TheDwf wrote:

So you're essentially telling us that Zergs can only play Infestors in ZvP because you can't manage to pull off with non-Infestors strategies?

On November 10 2012 05:01 Jermstuddog wrote:


Being at the top of Master league, if I can't do it, 99.9% of other SC2 players can't either. So, sure, I guess I'm ok with saying that.

On November 10 2012 03:31 Henk wrote:


Storms not hitting air is idiotic; just like fungal not hitting air. That was kind of my point, yes.