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Being at the top of Master league, if I can't do it, 99.9% of other SC2 players can't either. So, sure, I guess I'm ok with saying that.
But on a more personal level, it's the WAY i lose.
When I lose ZvZ or ZvT, I know where I fucked up and can make a small adjustment in my mechanics to fix that problem. There is a clear path before me on how to get better results. When I lose ZvP without using large amounts of infestors, it's a giant question-mark. In order to consistently beat THAT THING that just killed me (mind you, there are lots of these things in ZvP, we're just talking about whatever that last game was), I would have to do EVERYTHING several notches better. Tighter macro, better multi-tasking, better positioning, etc etc etc. Not that I'm not working on all these things when I play, but in ZvP, it's no contest. I don't barely lose fights and the game topples down from there, I don't point back at a stupid engagement where I gave away too many X and that cost me the game. It's 1 fight and Protoss ended it with more supply than he started. How the fuck do I fight against that?
With infestors...
What you've just described is the EXACT feeling that both a good amount of terrans and protoss players feel every time they play against zerg. By using your own arguments we can see that a large amount of zergs are doing well it seems only because of the overpowerd state of infestors and bl/infestor. The disparity between the skill of using this unit mix and defeating it is so extremely huge, that we even saw korean professional terrans, who get PAID to play this game, lose to zergs who by far do not get as much money at the last MLG. This isnt just in the profession scene, as you can easily lose a game as terran or protoss that you had a huge advantage in as soon as infestors hit the field and the zerg simply turtles to bl/infestor and just laughs at you.
And about you protoss dilemma, how would changing the root of fungal to a slow affect army movement for the toss? Simple, it allows him to actually move during the battle, allowing blink stalkers to blink forward, archons to move in range and he will be able to actually retreat if he gets into a bad position. How OP is that?! A player who is able to actually control his units is unheard of!
Do you actually see how ridiculous your argument is? So what, if he blinks into your force he will kill some brood lords, he could even beat your army if he has an advantage. If he wins, he deserves it, because as it is right now, zergs are winning engagements where they are outnumbered and should lose, but fungals and the sheer amount of broodlings kills the protoss army before it gets in range. Stalkers die to broodlings, it doesnt matter if they're away from your broodlords or under them.
Terrans on the other hand will actually be able to move and micro their marines and marauders out of the chain fungals, preventing the terran army from dying to basically two fungals. Dont believe me? Then watch flash vs life on entombed valley where flash is in a good position all game, get out of position ONCE and instantly loses. Its not a matter of skill at that point, its the fact that no matter how far into the game you are, two seconds is all it takes as a terran to lose the game, no matter how well off he was before that point.
Its this sheer power of infestors that dont simply change the game within two seconds, but win it, that frustrates basically all terran and protoss players. So who are you to say that infestors must not be nerfed at the expense of almost 2/3 of the community? What country do you rule as dictator, please tell us...
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^ Don't make me out to be defending Fungal, I'm not. That ability is broke as fuck and stupid.
The whole conversation that lead up to this specific discussion started a few pages back. I mentioned how I would much rather see NP be a significant spell on the Infestor and fungal be more of a "support" type ability rather than the powerhouse AoE nuke/lockdown function that it currently provides.
Then people started talking about how OP NP is and IT and all that stuff.
Then I responded with how that sounds far better to me than what we currently have. ZvP without fungal death traps, and Colossus sounds quite good to me.
Mr. dwf over here tried to make me sound like a noob bitching cuz I don't know how to micro, and I am just trying to put things into perspective.
Micro isn't the problem, or at least, it's not the ONLY problem.
Force Field does as much anti-micro to Zerg as Fungal does to Protoss. To make matters worse, Protoss has useful units behind those Force Fields. Both Colossi and Blink Stalkers enjoy basically unchecked domination of all non-Infestor Zerg units.
I, personally, have never liked Infestor play and stubbornly refused to embrace it until just recently. I still don't use large amounts of infestors in ZvZ or ZvT and I do just fine, but that shit doesn't fucking work in ZvP, unless you like losing matches randomly and having no simple answer to how you could have won. That is all I'm saying.
I am not standing on a soap box toting how its Zergs time to shine and P and T players are FINALLY SEEING THINGS FROM MY END SO HA!
No... Fungal is bullshit, it feels bad, it makes games boring, I'd LOVE to see it changed.
I can't say the same for IT or NP though, I think IT is fine, I'd like to see NP buffed quite honestly because I feel that it pushes the metagame forward in a GOOD way by discouraging bad play rather than encouraging it.
But fungal isn't the only problem in SC2. ZvP specifically is full of bullshit mechanics. Blizzard has a lot of work to do, but they're too busy trying to make widow-mine-turret-things work.
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On November 10 2012 04:06 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 03:11 Assirra wrote:On November 10 2012 02:56 S_SienZ wrote:On November 10 2012 02:53 Henk wrote:On November 10 2012 01:58 TheDwf wrote:On November 10 2012 01:03 Henk wrote:On November 10 2012 00:46 thomulus wrote:
How about fungal doesn`t affect air units. So every single ZvZ is mass muta? No thanks.. You have to realize that neither Terrans nor Protoss particularly care about that. I couldn't care less if a weakened Infestor led to Mutalisks wars in ZvZ. Yeah, good thing nobody listens to you then. Just because you don't play the matchup doesn't mean it can go to hell. Please, think rationally before you post. So you're saying one mirror match up trumps non-mirrors? He's right in saying balance issues don't occur in mirrors, so what if you have to play Mutas. The matchup is volatile and coinflippy as fuck as it is already. You must confuse zvz with pvp. There is a reason Nestea used and Life now is zvz monsters. It is volatile but it is not not coinflippy at all. Ruining 1 matchup for the sake of 2 others that maybe will be fixed is not the way it should go you know. In the long run yes, but short term makes zero sense to put up knowing that 2 match ups can be fixed but not doing anything for the sake of one.
Actually, you don't know 2 match ups will be fixed however you do know that one will be ruined.
You are just gambling in the hope it will fix something.
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On November 10 2012 05:15 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 05:01 Jermstuddog wrote:On November 10 2012 04:43 TheDwf wrote:On November 10 2012 04:35 Jermstuddog wrote:On November 10 2012 02:50 forsooth wrote:On November 10 2012 02:40 TheDwf wrote:On November 10 2012 02:32 Jermstuddog wrote:On November 10 2012 02:08 TheDwf wrote:On November 10 2012 02:04 Jermstuddog wrote:On November 10 2012 01:52 Cloak wrote:
[quote]
NP is very similar to the Replicant, in that if it's actually useful, it would dissuade the opponent from making certain compositions. Infestor can deal with having 2 spells; they already do. HTs only get Feedback/Storm/Morph. Infestors should be fine with Fungal/IT/Burrow-move. I personally don't have a problem with NP dissuading the use of high-powered single units. Mind Control was far worse in BW considering that ability was permanent and nobody was complaining about Dark Archon removing the viability of higher-tier units. The effect of reducing high-powered units means that ZvX games should have a lot of small units running around on both sides. When SC2 was released, I didn't see a problem with Zerg lacking a high-powered unit of their own because they could always just borrow their opponents units as needed. Since NP has been removed from viable use in standard ways, we have seen Zerg turn into this super turtle race because they are left without a way to engage the mid-late tier high-powered, costly units the other races have available to them (specifically thinking Protoss here). Zerg rushes for units that make free units and never engages with regular units because... well... they suck... TLDR: I would much rather see an Infestor with a strong NP ability and a weak fungal ability than the current strong fungal, weak NP variant. I think that would be much more interesting to watch and play. How can you even compare the Infestor to Dark Archons? The question SHOULD be: Do you really like Colossus-based PvZ so much that you are willing to keep the current iteration of the MU? Personally, I don't like the Infestor, but it's my only option as a Zerg player. I can't fucking make anything else work because it's all worthless once Colossi hit the field. Give me an infestor that has nice harass through IT, is mildly useful in combat through a lesser fungal, and discourages Colossi, which (IMO) currently ruin the MU, and I would be a very happy man. No one likes Colossi, why do you even ask? Yet forgive me, but stating that Infestors are your only option is laughable. I see many pro games in which Zergs win ZvP with Lair agression (Zerglings/Roaches multi-pronged attacks, Roaches drops, Mutalisks, etc.). it's interesting that suggesting Zerg players try difficult, micro-intensive styles that require lots of refinement and precise timing (you know, the same thing nearly every Terran and Protoss style revolve around) is always instantly decried as impossible. It's almost like using infestors for too long reduces your ability to play Starcraft. Thanks for the vote of confidence, but your strawman argument isn't going to work on me. Let me give you some realistic, personal background: ZvP has historically been my worst MU. When I dominate Zerg and Terran alike, I will lose upwards of 70% or more of my ZvP games... that is... until I stopped being stubborn and started playing more with the infestor. Here are some of my common problems when I use non-infestor based armies (trying to keep it as short as possible): Zerg has no unit that really COUNTERS the Stalker. Roaches lose in equal supply, Lings are good if they can get adequate surface area, but Protoss has enough tools to mitigate ling surrounds, Brood Lords, Mutas, Ultralisks, none of these win cost-effectively vs Stalkers in a straight-up fight. The best part is that Stalkers are about 80% as mobile as Mutalisks, which Blizzard has already shown up they think are too powerful in the ZvP MU, but still... Zerg doesn't get a unit like the Phoenix is to the Mutalisk or the Immortal is to the Roach. So we lock Stalkers down with Fungal and watch die slowly, from a nice, safe distance. Zerg doesn't really have anything that COUNTERS the Colossus. Same story, different problem. Colossus have 9 range (compared to the Roach's 4 or the Zergling's 0), any decent Protoss will have plenty of ground units to keep Roaches/Lings at a harmless distance while the Colossus pounds out 150+ collective damage per shot to the Zerg army. The go-to argument every Protoss player presents is "CORRUPTORS, NOOB!!!" but really... let me go back to my age old argument. Corruptors do less DPS-per-supply to Colossi than Stalkers. Remember all that talk Protoss players like to throw around about how bad of a unit the Stalker is? Well, imagine if they cost 2x as much gas, didn't have blink, and couldn't target ground units... yeah... that's what you're suggesting is my counter to the Colossus. ****Note - If you played SC2 right after the fungal change, Infestor/Ling armies were found to be incredibly effective in mid-game ZvP due to the lockdown from Fungal and NP on colossi. It was nice, shit, it was OP. Zerg could lock down the entire Protoss army and trade away Minerals for high-gas-cost units. Why weren't Zergs doing this before the fungal change? Simple: Infestors weren't viable until that point for the same reason that corruptors suck. Spending 1k gas to counter 1 Colossus and then immediately losing to the 40 Stalkers accompanying that Colossus is not a winning strategy. Zerg DOES have counters to Force Field, but they're not really good vs anything else. Baneling drops and burrow roaches come to mind immediately. Unfortunately, neither one of those are really useful vs Blinking Stalker armies that are available by the same point in the game. If Protoss is smart enough to bring an observer for the roaches or simply spread out for the bling drops, they just won't be useful (this is why we don't see either one of these used regularly). Mutalisks suck. When I use them and win, I feel like a badass. Unfortunately, Stalkers trade well enough vs Mutalisks and have the mobility to hold off almost all harassment if they have blink. I didn't have a problem with this, it was still my go-to strategy until the Phoenix buff. Then I played a few games vs blind phoenix and realized that mutas are generally a bad tech choice in mid-game ZvP. With their new-found +2 range, a handful of phoenix really can lock down a muta flock 2-3x their size with impunity. And it's not like they're worthless otherwise, the phoenix is probably the best harassment unit Protoss has in SC2. Without viable Mutalisks, I am forced back into trying to fight the Protoss triangle of bullshit. Colossus on top of Stalkers behind force fields. Ultralisks are a fucking waste of money. Hydralisks are the fastest way to throw ANY ZvP regardless of Protoss' unit composition. Fail, fail, fail. Sure, I could play well and win some, but then the next game I would play equally well and get absolutely crushed by good force fields or proper unit control. Then I gave up and started using Infestors (rather recently too, only about 1 month ago). It's a completely different world. Engagements happen on MY terms, not my opponents. I can defend against mid-game timing pushes. I am not depending on my opponent just being fucking terrible at this game. I get to micro instead of click and pray. And best of all, my infestors immediately lend themselves to my Brood Lord army when I get to that point in the game. It just feels better all around. So talk shit about me being a bad player and all. Have fun with that, hopefully it gets you somewhere. But I fucking tried... I tried for over a year to make non-infestors work. It doesn't. Non-infestor is only as good as your opponent is bad, and that is no way to play (or design) any RTS game. So you're essentially telling us that Zergs can only play Infestors in ZvP because you can't manage to pull off with non-Infestors strategies? Being at the top of Master league, if I can't do it, 99.9% of other SC2 players can't either. So, sure, I guess I'm ok with saying that. Nice logic then. I'm mid-GM and I'm awful with mech in TvT, so since I'm better than 99,9999% of the other Terrans they should not play mech in TvT because I can't pull it off. Makes any sense? Besides, the point of Lair agression in ZvP is precisely to harass/trade so the Protoss can't easily reach his Sentry/Stalker/Colossi (or Storm if Mutas) max army, but whatever. The sure thing is you have absolutely no right to peremptorily assert that “only Infestors are viable in ZvP” because you fail when playing something else.
And you are talking preference vs viability here. Being a Terran, you enjoy a MU where multiple timings, unit compositions, and play styles are all considered equally viable, even at the highest levels of play... Must be nice...
Unfortunately, there is no reasonable way to compare that to ZvP where EVERY successful Zerg is going for heavy Infestor play past the 20 minute mark and EVERY successful Protoss wins late-game engagements immediately after landing a Vortex.
It must be because all us Z and P players just aren't good enough... we can't pull it off, right?
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On November 10 2012 06:12 Jermstuddog wrote:
Unfortunately, there is no reasonable way to compare that to ZvP where EVERY successful Zerg is going for heavy Infestor play past the 20 minute mark and EVERY successful Protoss wins late-game engagements immediately after landing a Vortex.
What about Stephano's max roach push and numerous roach timings? What about leenock's 6/10 pool against protoss? What about Life's constant use of zergling timings to catch protoss off guard? What about when mutalisks were the units that protoss were complaining about? Your statement is so exaggerated and absurd it's no wonder you lose so many times to protoss.
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I would enjoy seeing an infestor change but what are the chances of seeing bliz do this when they are so focused on the release of hots. A change to the infestor may be seen as too game changing to deal with at this time. For that reason only I root for whichever change would have the least drastic effect on the game, and could be implemented without any serious testing (if this is even feasible).
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On November 10 2012 06:24 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 06:12 Jermstuddog wrote:
Unfortunately, there is no reasonable way to compare that to ZvP where EVERY successful Zerg is going for heavy Infestor play past the 20 minute mark and EVERY successful Protoss wins late-game engagements immediately after landing a Vortex. What about Stephano's max roach push and numerous roach timings? What about leenock's 6/10 pool against protoss? What about Life's constant use of zergling timings to catch protoss off guard? What about when mutalisks were the units that protoss were complaining about? Your statement is so exaggerated and absurd it's no wonder you lose so many times to protoss.
These both happen in the early game, roach max hitting around 12 min and the early pools around the 4 minute mark.
Not even talking about pre-infestor timing builds.
This is a thread about infestors, i'm talking about infestors and the problems surrounding them.
Unfortunately, people would rather skip past 1/2 the stuff I'm typing and take cheap shots at me for being the bad guy.
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you guys crying about infestors... watch Lucifron vs Stephano (LIVE) @ Stim to the Win  .. all i can say now to you ragekids and flamers L2P!
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On November 10 2012 05:56 Jermstuddog wrote:
Force Field does as much anti-micro to Zerg as Fungal does to Protoss.
Ah yes, I forgot that Force Field did damage on its own, affected air units and that on top of that, Sentries had the ability to shower the opponent's army in little crystal capsules which, upon exploding, free a temporary mini-Zealot packed with a psionic Gauss gun. No, seriously, first comparing Infestors to Dark Archons, then Fungal to Force Field? Do you see Sentries used in lategame in any match-up? Sentries are one of the worst things in SC2 from a design perspective, OK, but at least at some point they just fade out. They're only dominant for a while.
On November 10 2012 06:12 Jermstuddog wrote:
And you are talking preference vs viability here. Being a Terran, you enjoy a MU where multiple timings, unit compositions, and play styles are all considered equally viable, even at the highest levels of play... Must be nice...
Unfortunately, there is no reasonable way to compare that to ZvP where EVERY successful Zerg is going for heavy Infestor play past the 20 minute mark and EVERY successful Protoss wins late-game engagements immediately after landing a Vortex.
It must be because all us Z and P players just aren't good enough... we can't pull it off, right?
Bolded the important part. We're talking about midgame possibilities and you answer saying “but you have to get Infestors by lategame”. So? Makes as much sense as someone talking about the different possibilities in midgame TvT and then someone else coming and replying “but you have to get BC/Vikings/Ravens by lategame !” It's simply irrelevant. There are Infestor-free possibilities in midgame ZvP; then, indeed, when Zerg transitions to Hive/lategame, he gets Infestors. But before, he may have played midgame without them (Mutalisks, Zerglings/Roaches, etc.).
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On November 10 2012 06:29 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 05:56 Jermstuddog wrote:
Force Field does as much anti-micro to Zerg as Fungal does to Protoss. Ah yes, I forgot that Force Field did damage on its own, affected air units and that on top of that, Sentries had the ability to shower the opponent's army in little crystal capsules which, upon exploding, free a temporary mini-Zealot packed with a psionic Gauss gun. No, seriously, first comparing Infestors to Dark Archons, then Fungal to Force Field? Do you see Sentries used in lategame in any match-up? Sentries are one of the worst things in SC2 from a design perspective, OK, but at least at some point they just fade out. They're only dominant for a while. Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 06:12 Jermstuddog wrote:
And you are talking preference vs viability here. Being a Terran, you enjoy a MU where multiple timings, unit compositions, and play styles are all considered equally viable, even at the highest levels of play... Must be nice...
Unfortunately, there is no reasonable way to compare that to ZvP where EVERY successful Zerg is going for heavy Infestor play past the 20 minute mark and EVERY successful Protoss wins late-game engagements immediately after landing a Vortex.
It must be because all us Z and P players just aren't good enough... we can't pull it off, right? Bolded the important part. We're talking about midgame possibilities and you answer saying “but you have to get Infestors by lategame”. So? Makes as much sense as someone talking about the different possibilities in midgame TvT and then someone else coming and replying “but you have to get BC/Vikings/Ravens by lategame !” It's simply irrelevant. There are Infestor-free possibilities in midgame ZvP; then, indeed, when Zerg transitions to Hive/lategame, he gets Infestors. But before, he may have played midgame without them (Mutalisks, Zerglings/Roaches, etc.).
So... we both agree then that ZvP isn't horrible before the ~15 minute mark where Colossi start hitting the field and making the entire Zerg army irrelevant?
I don't disagree with basically any of your points in this post except that I still don't see any problem with the Infested Terran ability in general. When Zerg doesn't have 20-30 Infestors, ITs are not problematic in the slightest.
I guess we go back to when you jumped all over me for seeing ZvP as one bullshit mechanic countering the other. Outside of Infestors, how does Zerg fight a late-game Protoss army?
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@dwf: I just went back 2 pages and just noticed your post about mid-game aggression. Seriously didn't even see that until now. Think that's what got you going down this path?
I wasn't even talking about Lair-aggression or anything like that. It's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. ZvP is fine until that point.
I am even of the mind that if Blizzard could somehow force ZvP back into a 1 base P vs 2 base Z scenario like we had 2 years ago, the MU would be a lot more interesting. Early engagements are fun and interesting to watch from both sides.
The problem is that ZvP has an incredibly linear path it follows with only a handful of variations, but they all end up in the same place by the 20 minute mark, and that's when everything goes to shit.
Infestors are part of the problem, but so are Colossi.
Again, the personal side of things, I only bothered to start using infestors because I can't fucking fight Colossi without them. There is just no way once they get up to meaningful numbers. Then, the more you play with infestors, the more you notice that they're the only damn thing worth making. Everything else is just a waste of money. The Protoss army is THAT MUCH better than the Zerg army.
I am not arguing against a fungal nerf, I think that should be obvious. But for ZvP, I think its just a shitty MU that heavily favors infestor usage over ANYTHING else. Reduce Fungal effectiveness without addressing the other things, and we'll just see the MU get completely dominated by Protoss.
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I don't think the Infestor should change at all. Where's the question?
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A good balance change would be to change the lead designers into different people who actually followed and understood the professional Brood War scene, but also who have the will and talent to avoid the "New Super Mario Bros" syndrome
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On November 10 2012 08:03 President Dead wrote:
I don't think the Infestor should change at all. Where's the question?
This thread is given the infestor should be changed, how should it be changed? Feel free to make your own thread, asking your own question, if you feel that this thread is somehow unfair.
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On November 10 2012 01:03 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 00:46 thomulus wrote:
How about fungal doesn`t affect air units. So every single ZvZ is mass muta? No thanks..
Dude, every ZvZ is mass roach infestor or snipe 3rd with zerglings into roach infestor.
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On November 10 2012 06:27 NesquiKGG wrote:you guys crying about infestors... watch Lucifron vs Stephano (LIVE) @ Stim to the Win .. all i can say now to you ragekids and flamers L2P!
i love how zerg users make such comments when talking about balance issues + come up with a theory that one tournament doesnt mean much when zerg dominates in it.
I think the main problem is infestors counter all in large numbers . So blizz gotta find a way to make zerg users to not make "only" infestors. I think 3 supply and slight a bit of IT nerf would be fine.
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Fungal no longer roots, no burrow movement, 3 larvae spawn each cycle, 6 larva max per hatch, buff other units. Problems solved.
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Seriously, fungal should be able to affect your own units, its completely illogical otherwise.. EMP affects your own units, Storm, Siege tank fire, HSM, Forcefields (lol)...
I'm glad at least people finally have realized how imba zerg is ^^ excited to see what they decide to change, nice poll
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On November 10 2012 16:52 dde wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 06:27 NesquiKGG wrote:you guys crying about infestors... watch Lucifron vs Stephano (LIVE) @ Stim to the Win .. all i can say now to you ragekids and flamers L2P! i love how zerg users make such comments when talking about balance issues + come up with a theory that one tournament doesnt mean much when zerg dominates in it. I think the main problem is infestors counter all in large numbers . So blizz gotta find a way to make zerg users to not make "only" infestors. I think 3 supply and slight a bit of IT nerf would be fine.
They're still only gonna make infestors. Just less of them. There is no other units I would prefer over broodlord infestor. I don't give a shit if you cut my max infestors from 20+ to 8.
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Something I dont understand.
In PvT if Protoss builds HT's Terran answers asap with ghosts. But in ZvT I never see ghosts when Zerg builds infestors. Gas doesnt seem to be the problem. Why?
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EPT
