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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 10 2012 01:03 Henk wrote: So every single ZvZ is mass muta? No thanks.. You have to realize that neither Terrans nor Protoss particularly care about that. I couldn't care less if a weakened Infestor led to Mutalisks wars in ZvZ. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On November 10 2012 01:52 Cloak wrote: NP is very similar to the Replicant, in that if it's actually useful, it would dissuade the opponent from making certain compositions. Infestor can deal with having 2 spells; they already do. HTs only get Feedback/Storm/Morph. Infestors should be fine with Fungal/IT/Burrow-move. I personally don't have a problem with NP dissuading the use of high-powered single units. Mind Control was far worse in BW considering that ability was permanent and nobody was complaining about Dark Archon removing the viability of higher-tier units. The effect of reducing high-powered units means that ZvX games should have a lot of small units running around on both sides. When SC2 was released, I didn't see a problem with Zerg lacking a high-powered unit of their own because they could always just borrow their opponents units as needed. Since NP has been removed from viable use in standard ways, we have seen Zerg turn into this super turtle race because they are left without a way to engage the mid-late tier high-powered, costly units the other races have available to them (specifically thinking Protoss here). Zerg rushes for units that make free units and never engages with regular units because... well... they suck... TLDR: I would much rather see an Infestor with a strong NP ability and a weak fungal ability than the current strong fungal, weak NP variant. I think that would be much more interesting to watch and play. (Really, I don't get why anybody is talking about anything but fungal, is everyone so blinded by their hate that they can't see the clearly broken function of that spell?) | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 10 2012 02:04 Jermstuddog wrote: I personally don't have a problem with NP dissuading the use of high-powered single units. Mind Control was far worse in BW considering that ability was permanent and nobody was complaining about Dark Archon removing the viability of higher-tier units. The effect of reducing high-powered units means that ZvX games should have a lot of small units running around on both sides. When SC2 was released, I didn't see a problem with Zerg lacking a high-powered unit of their own because they could always just borrow their opponents units as needed. Since NP has been removed from viable use in standard ways, we have seen Zerg turn into this super turtle race because they are left without a way to engage the mid-late tier high-powered, costly units the other races have available to them (specifically thinking Protoss here). Zerg rushes for units that make free units and never engages with regular units because... well... they suck... TLDR: I would much rather see an Infestor with a strong NP ability and a weak fungal ability than the current strong fungal, weak NP variant. I think that would be much more interesting to watch and play. How can you even compare the Infestor to Dark Archons? | ||
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absalom86
Iceland1770 Posts
* Fungal working like a siege tank blast in terms of damage / rooting a.k.a. complete root at center, then 75% and 50% slow and damage in our rims. * Reduce infestor model by quite a bit. Making them more stackable will make them weaker to AoE and more micro splitting required, as well as make EMP better against them. Could also slow them down a bit off creep by 5-10% | ||
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Hryul
Austria2609 Posts
On November 10 2012 02:08 TheDwf wrote: How can you even compare the Infestor to Dark Archons? I found this post quite good as it shows a way how to change the Infestor and maybe change the way PvZ is played. This is out of the box thinking I like. | ||
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Raygun
348 Posts
When you look at everything other than Ghost v. Templar, a buff like that would greatly favor the HT and Protoss. Feedback is incredibly good against Ravens, Thors, Medivacs, and situationally Banshees. I think a change like what was suggested would be too strong against Medivac drop play and make Ravens and Thors even more difficult to use, which the match up definitely doesn't need. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On November 10 2012 01:58 TheDwf wrote: You have to realize that neither Terrans nor Protoss particularly care about that. I couldn't care less if a weakened Infestor led to Mutalisks wars in ZvZ. Good you are no balance designed then eh. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 10 2012 02:19 Raygun wrote: I don't think a range increase for Snipe and Feedback, like Mr. Bitter suggested, is a good solution at all. Twelve range Feedback would likely be way too strong in PvT. A Snipe range increase might look ok on paper to counter it, but in practice I can't see how it could work. Feedback neutralizes Ghosts much faster than Snipe does against High Templars as it takes two shots (with a short cooldown) to kill them. The interplay between HT and Ghosts is fine when EMP and Storms are also in play though (mostly EMP for the nearly instant effect.) When you look at everything other than Ghost v. Templar, a buff like that would greatly favor the HT and Protoss. Feedback is incredibly good against Ravens, Thors, Medivacs, and situationally Banshees. I think a change like what was suggested would be too strong against Medivac drop play and make Ravens and Thors even more difficult to use, which the match up definitely doesn't need. Anyway, the last thing SC2 needs is more of the bland “my opponent builds A so I have to build B, the counter to A” theme. On November 10 2012 02:24 Assirra wrote: Good you are no balance designed then eh. Are you aware that balance problems precisely don't exist in mirror match-ups? | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On November 10 2012 02:08 TheDwf wrote: How can you even compare the Infestor to Dark Archons? The question SHOULD be: Do you really like Colossus-based PvZ so much that you are willing to keep the current iteration of the MU? Personally, I don't like the Infestor, but it's my only option as a Zerg player. I can't fucking make anything else work because it's all worthless once Colossi hit the field. Give me an infestor that has nice harass through IT, is mildly useful in combat through a lesser fungal, and discourages Colossi, which (IMO) currently ruin the MU, and I would be a very happy man. | ||
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bjornkavist
Canada1235 Posts
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On November 10 2012 01:58 TheDwf wrote: You have to realize that neither Terrans nor Protoss particularly care about that. I couldn't care less if a weakened Infestor led to Mutalisks wars in ZvZ. BW ZvZ was muta exclusive forever, it's just how the matchup worked. Not the greatest thing ever to watch, but not exactly terrible because of the incredible intensity of the micro. It'd certainly be worth sending ZvZ down that path to save the non-mirrors, but I don't think it's really needed. 50% slow and hydras could work just fine against muta. | ||
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absalom86
Iceland1770 Posts
On November 08 2012 21:22 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: Ah but if you make EMP radius bigger then TvP is kinda screwed. I personally believe a change in fungal vs vikings/flying is good for TvZ, and in general perhaps remove the energy upgrade for infestors so they don't pop out ready to fight. A small change but it did a lot to ht. Can make infestors smaller to address that problem. | ||
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absalom86
Iceland1770 Posts
On November 10 2012 02:32 Jermstuddog wrote: The question SHOULD be: Do you really like Colossus-based PvZ so much that you are willing to keep the current iteration of the MU? Personally, I don't like the Infestor, but it's my only option as a Zerg player. I can't fucking make anything else work because it's all worthless once Colossi hit the field. Give me an infestor that has nice harass through IT, is mildly useful in combat through a lesser fungal, and discourages Colossi, which (IMO) currently ruin the MU, and I would be a very happy man. Game would be more interested if Colossi was just outright removed and reavers made a comeback. Would open up protoss air as well, instead of having one force a counter to both. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 10 2012 02:32 Jermstuddog wrote: The question SHOULD be: Do you really like Colossus-based PvZ so much that you are willing to keep the current iteration of the MU? Personally, I don't like the Infestor, but it's my only option as a Zerg player. I can't fucking make anything else work because it's all worthless once Colossi hit the field. Give me an infestor that has nice harass through IT, is mildly useful in combat through a lesser fungal, and discourages Colossi, which (IMO) currently ruin the MU, and I would be a very happy man. No one likes Colossi, why do you even ask? Yet forgive me, but stating that Infestors are your only option is laughable. I see many pro games in which Zergs win ZvP with Lair agression (Zerglings/Roaches multi-pronged attacks, Roaches drops, Mutalisks, etc.). | ||
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2stra
Netherlands928 Posts
What if Blizzard keeps the rooting effect but adds a small delay to fungal, with an added visual cue that the fungal is casted. (the targeted area lights up for a second or so prior to the fungal actually landing.) This way players have the possibility to dodge the fungal and zerg's have to anticipate the opponents movement in order to land the spell. In addition to this, if they make it so that fungals can't be chained anymore I believe it might solve some of the problems without changing the fundamentals of the unit. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On November 10 2012 02:40 TheDwf wrote: No one likes Colossi, why do you even ask? Yet forgive me, but stating that Infestors are your only option is laughable. I see many pro games in which Zergs win ZvP with Lair agression (Zerglings/Roaches multi-pronged attacks, Roaches drops, Mutalisks, etc.). it's interesting that suggesting Zerg players try difficult, micro-intensive styles that require lots of refinement and precise timing (you know, the same thing nearly every Terran and Protoss style revolve around) is always instantly decried as impossible. It's almost like using infestors for too long reduces your ability to play Starcraft. | ||
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KamikazeDurrrp
United States95 Posts
All the suggestions to just change fungal to a slow wouldn't work because as long as fungal does damage then the zerg would still mass infestor unless the slow was low enough to make it so that the opposing army could run away from chain fungals. The damage aspect of fungal has to be removed if we ever want to balance the infestor, and by removing it, we can give more utility to fungal itself. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On November 10 2012 01:58 TheDwf wrote: You have to realize that neither Terrans nor Protoss particularly care about that. I couldn't care less if a weakened Infestor led to Mutalisks wars in ZvZ. Yeah, good thing nobody listens to you then. Just because you don't play the matchup doesn't mean it can go to hell. Please, think rationally before you post. | ||
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
On November 10 2012 02:53 Henk wrote: Yeah, good thing nobody listens to you then. Just because you don't play the matchup doesn't mean it can go to hell. Please, think rationally before you post. So you're saying one mirror match up trumps non-mirrors? He's right in saying balance issues don't occur in mirrors, so what if you have to play Mutas. The matchup is volatile and coinflippy as fuck as it is already. | ||
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