|
On October 20 2012 09:17 mindspike wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:05 VanGarde wrote:
.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport. This would be our fundamental difference in opinion then. I do agree with you though that a significant number of a sport's viewers should come from people who don't play the sport at all. This, however, doesn't mean that you don't need a lot of casual players as well.
I don't disagree with that either, I just think that this massive overreaction seems to be based on overvaluing the influence of having more casual players.
Sc2 is doing just fine, it might have plateaued but that was obvious from the start that eventually that would happen. LoL is seeing a surge but that is because LoL atm is at the same place where sc2 was a year ago, it is in a growing phase and thus getting a lot of momentum, investing and positive attention.
I think it is surreal that people first though that sc2 would grow indefinitely and now when it plateaus they think the game is dying, yet at the same time they think that now LoL will grow indefinitely. There is some fantastic partitioning of mental faculties going on there.
|
|
|
On October 20 2012 09:22 mindspike wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:16 VanGarde wrote:
That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.
WoW had other major problems. First and foremost is that it was never designed to be a sport. I would argue that the fact that WoW had an e-sport at all was due to the fact that there was a lot of players. Also you should look up your facts: http://www.vgchartz.com/article/250466/league-of-legends-passes-32m-monthly-active-users/
Those numbers are bit hard to gauge to be honest. I can only assume that a montly active user is anyone who is logged in on any given month. Unless it is even active accounts. But I am one of those 32 million "active" players then. Despite the fact that I at best play one-two games over the course of a month. Then I might not play for 5 months.
|
On October 20 2012 09:18 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:13 Lysenko wrote:On October 20 2012 09:05 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:02 mindspike wrote:On October 20 2012 09:00 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 08:59 mindspike wrote:On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote:
Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so. No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier. But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that. No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread? .... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport. The problem with your argument is that sports (e- or otherwise) don't get popular in a vacuum. Sports become spectator sports when they're commonly played by amateurs. Yes, once they achieve a certain media scale, they can take off in a way that's far out of proportion to their amateur player base, but for smaller sports, people watch them mainly when they play them, or have at least tried to play them in the past. Jai-alai and polo are both very exciting sports to watch, but few people do because they're both not very common for amateurs and they haven't reached the scale necessary to take on a life of their own. That will only happen when there's enough money in broadcasting a sport to inspire major media companies to fight over the contracts to show the games. Perhaps but that is more of an argument that ALL e-sport will inevitably be impossible because of how games work and because of how limited games lifespans are. No amount of artificial life support will keep LoL OR sc2 floating with a massive amateur playerbase for long enough. You might very well be right, but if you are right you are just proving that there will never ever be an e-sports scene, that will always only be short bubbles.
BW sustained itself in Korea for 10 years. LoL is bigger than BW ever was.
|
probably alot less ppl actually plays LoL than the 32m advertise. I have 4 accounts on LoL that I log in at least once a month, i'm sure many are in the same boat.
being a free game and all, doesn't take much to make an account
|
On October 20 2012 09:31 act.hero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:18 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:13 Lysenko wrote:On October 20 2012 09:05 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:02 mindspike wrote:On October 20 2012 09:00 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 08:59 mindspike wrote:On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote:
Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so. No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier. But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that. No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread? .... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport. The problem with your argument is that sports (e- or otherwise) don't get popular in a vacuum. Sports become spectator sports when they're commonly played by amateurs. Yes, once they achieve a certain media scale, they can take off in a way that's far out of proportion to their amateur player base, but for smaller sports, people watch them mainly when they play them, or have at least tried to play them in the past. Jai-alai and polo are both very exciting sports to watch, but few people do because they're both not very common for amateurs and they haven't reached the scale necessary to take on a life of their own. That will only happen when there's enough money in broadcasting a sport to inspire major media companies to fight over the contracts to show the games. Perhaps but that is more of an argument that ALL e-sport will inevitably be impossible because of how games work and because of how limited games lifespans are. No amount of artificial life support will keep LoL OR sc2 floating with a massive amateur playerbase for long enough. You might very well be right, but if you are right you are just proving that there will never ever be an e-sports scene, that will always only be short bubbles. BW sustained itself in Korea for 10 years. LoL is bigger than BW ever was.
Yes, but I am saying that if you look at bw sales you could probably see a plateau and a decline there too. In retrospect we know that the game did not die because of that. But if you took the mentality that is going on here right now and applied it in the days when bnet basically became empty and you had to play on iccup etc to see other players people would had declared the death of bw too.
Also I have no problem with LoL being huge in Korea because I am not under the misconception that one of LoL or sc2 has to die for the other to live.
|
On October 20 2012 09:23 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:16 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:09 iky43210 wrote:On October 20 2012 09:05 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:02 mindspike wrote:On October 20 2012 09:00 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 08:59 mindspike wrote:On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote:
Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so. No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier. But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that. No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread? .... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport. I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend. But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena. The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone. wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular
dude, Blizzard killed BW for SC2.
AND poured in money for tournaments to happen...
why so ignorant.
|
On October 20 2012 09:34 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:23 iky43210 wrote:On October 20 2012 09:16 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:09 iky43210 wrote:On October 20 2012 09:05 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:02 mindspike wrote:On October 20 2012 09:00 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 08:59 mindspike wrote:On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote:
Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so. No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier. But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that. No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread? .... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport. I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend. But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena. The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone. wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular dude, Blizzard killed BW for SC2. AND poured in money for tournaments to happen... why so ignorant.
SC2 killed BW yes because SC2 is a new more popular game. Not because of a massive evil conspiracy by Blizzard. If you mean in the sense that Blizzard made SC2 thus it killed BW then I guess you are right but the community switched to SC2. It didn't have to, but it did. This is how games evolve, when a new game in the same genre comes out, they attract the player base. This is also why sc2 should be more concerned about rts games than about LoL and dota. But this is a topic for another thread.
|
On October 20 2012 09:34 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:23 iky43210 wrote:On October 20 2012 09:16 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:09 iky43210 wrote:On October 20 2012 09:05 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:02 mindspike wrote:On October 20 2012 09:00 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 08:59 mindspike wrote:On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote:
Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so. No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier. But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that. No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread? .... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport. I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend. But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena. The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone. wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular dude, Blizzard killed BW for SC2. AND poured in money for tournaments to happen... why so ignorant.
reading is hard
|
On October 20 2012 09:37 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:34 Xiphos wrote:On October 20 2012 09:23 iky43210 wrote:On October 20 2012 09:16 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:09 iky43210 wrote:On October 20 2012 09:05 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:02 mindspike wrote:On October 20 2012 09:00 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 08:59 mindspike wrote:On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote:
Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so. No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it. The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier. But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that. No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread? .... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport. I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend. But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena. The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone. wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular dude, Blizzard killed BW for SC2. AND poured in money for tournaments to happen... why so ignorant. SC2 killed BW yes because SC2 is a new more popular game. Not because of a massive evil conspiracy by Blizzard. If you mean in the sense that Blizzard made SC2 thus it killed BW then I guess you are right but the community switched to SC2. It didn't have to, but it did. This is how games evolve, when a new game in the same genre comes out, they attract the player base. This is also why sc2 should be more concerned about rts games than about LoL and dota. But this is a topic for another thread.
History lessons now.
Blizzard pretty much told the press that OGN/MBC was holding out illegal tournament which is a huge turn off to sponsors. And by suing MBC, he pretty much ended the game channel because the MBC HQ didn't want to go into ESPORT anymore because of this fiasco, thus effectively ending BW's 2nd line of hope.
Subsequently, after the departure of MBCGame, teams gave up hope because they have seen little to no hope in the industry anymore, namely Hwaseung Oz and WeMade Fox (which also terminated their other relations to esport). This whole deal was sparked by Blizzard. This had lead to sponsors being more and more unwilling to sponsor the tournaments.
Moreover, the recent OSL at the TVing's semifinal, Mike M. (the president of Blizzard Ent.) pretty much said "Oh yeah thanks a lot to BW and OGN for paving the road of progaming but stop toying around now because it really is the time to transition to SC2."
Don't make arguments w/o any research.
|
On October 20 2012 09:30 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:22 mindspike wrote:On October 20 2012 09:16 VanGarde wrote:
That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.
WoW had other major problems. First and foremost is that it was never designed to be a sport. I would argue that the fact that WoW had an e-sport at all was due to the fact that there was a lot of players. Also you should look up your facts: http://www.vgchartz.com/article/250466/league-of-legends-passes-32m-monthly-active-users/ Those numbers are bit hard to gauge to be honest. I can only assume that a montly active user is anyone who is logged in on any given month. Unless it is even active accounts. But I am one of those 32 million "active" players then. Despite the fact that I at best play one-two games over the course of a month. Then I might not play for 5 months.
Directly from RIOT:
http://majorleagueoflegends.s3.amazonaws.com/lol_infographic.png
3 million average concurrent users. That's far above even the peak of WoW (~ 2 mill based on what I can tell).
|
Destiny is right, as someone who doesn't play sc2 often at all anymore, and was really uninterested on seeing the HotS beta(actually considering not buying the game), everything he said pretty much lines up to why i stopped playing... I can especially relate to the feeling of logging on to bnet2.0 and it feeling like a graveyard.
|
On October 20 2012 09:40 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:37 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:34 Xiphos wrote:On October 20 2012 09:23 iky43210 wrote:On October 20 2012 09:16 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:09 iky43210 wrote:On October 20 2012 09:05 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:02 mindspike wrote:On October 20 2012 09:00 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 08:59 mindspike wrote:
[quote]
No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it.
The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier. But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that. No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread? .... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport. I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend. But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena. The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone. wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular dude, Blizzard killed BW for SC2. AND poured in money for tournaments to happen... why so ignorant. SC2 killed BW yes because SC2 is a new more popular game. Not because of a massive evil conspiracy by Blizzard. If you mean in the sense that Blizzard made SC2 thus it killed BW then I guess you are right but the community switched to SC2. It didn't have to, but it did. This is how games evolve, when a new game in the same genre comes out, they attract the player base. This is also why sc2 should be more concerned about rts games than about LoL and dota. But this is a topic for another thread. History lessons now. Blizzard pretty much told the press that OGN/MBC was holding out illegal tournament which is a huge turn off to sponsors. And by suing MBC, he pretty much ended the game channel because the MBC HQ didn't want to go into ESPORT anymore because of this fiasco, thus effectively ending BW's 2nd line of hope. Subsequently, after the departure of MBCGame, teams gave up hope because they have seen little to no hope in the industry anymore, namely Hwaseung Oz and WeMade Fox (which also terminated their other relations to esport). This whole deal was sparked by Blizzard. This had lead to sponsors being more and more unwilling to sponsor the tournaments. Moreover, the recent OSL at the TVing's semifinal, Mike M. (the president of Blizzard Ent.) pretty much said "Oh yeah thanks a lot to BW and OGN for paving the road of progaming but stop toying around now because it really is the time to transition to SC2." Don't make arguments w/o any research.
Blizzard told the press the tournaments were illegal because they were. They sued MBC because they broke copyright law. Blizzard was in the right.
|
On October 20 2012 09:42 mindspike wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:30 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:22 mindspike wrote:On October 20 2012 09:16 VanGarde wrote:
That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.
WoW had other major problems. First and foremost is that it was never designed to be a sport. I would argue that the fact that WoW had an e-sport at all was due to the fact that there was a lot of players. Also you should look up your facts: http://www.vgchartz.com/article/250466/league-of-legends-passes-32m-monthly-active-users/ Those numbers are bit hard to gauge to be honest. I can only assume that a montly active user is anyone who is logged in on any given month. Unless it is even active accounts. But I am one of those 32 million "active" players then. Despite the fact that I at best play one-two games over the course of a month. Then I might not play for 5 months. Directly from RIOT: http://majorleagueoflegends.s3.amazonaws.com/lol_infographic.png3 million average concurrent users. That's far above even the peak of WoW (~ 2 mill based on what I can tell).
So 3 million then instead of 32. So as I was saying, the numbers are hard to gauge, that sounds way more reasonable. But then again, I don't understand why people are so god damn terrified over this. Good for LoL that it is doing so well, it is a good game. We need more of those.
|
On October 20 2012 09:40 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:37 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:34 Xiphos wrote:On October 20 2012 09:23 iky43210 wrote:On October 20 2012 09:16 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:09 iky43210 wrote:On October 20 2012 09:05 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:02 mindspike wrote:On October 20 2012 09:00 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 08:59 mindspike wrote:
[quote]
No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it.
The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier. But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that. No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread? .... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport. I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend. But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena. The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone. wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular dude, Blizzard killed BW for SC2. AND poured in money for tournaments to happen... why so ignorant. SC2 killed BW yes because SC2 is a new more popular game. Not because of a massive evil conspiracy by Blizzard. If you mean in the sense that Blizzard made SC2 thus it killed BW then I guess you are right but the community switched to SC2. It didn't have to, but it did. This is how games evolve, when a new game in the same genre comes out, they attract the player base. This is also why sc2 should be more concerned about rts games than about LoL and dota. But this is a topic for another thread. History lessons now. Blizzard pretty much told the press that OGN/MBC was holding out illegal tournament which is a huge turn off to sponsors. And by suing MBC, he pretty much ended the game channel because the MBC HQ didn't want to go into ESPORT anymore because of this fiasco, thus effectively ending BW's 2nd line of hope. Subsequently, after the departure of MBCGame, teams gave up hope because they have seen little to no hope in the industry anymore, namely Hwaseung Oz and WeMade Fox (which also terminated their other relations to esport). This whole deal was sparked by Blizzard. This had lead to sponsors being more and more unwilling to sponsor the tournaments. Moreover, the recent OSL at the TVing's semifinal, Mike M. (the president of Blizzard Ent.) pretty much said "Oh yeah thanks a lot to BW and OGN for paving the road of progaming but stop toying around now because it really is the time to transition to SC2." Don't make arguments w/o any research.
They WERE holding illegal tournaments. Kespa could have just paid the god damn money but as I said this is a topic for another thread. The point is that in the west, players switched to sc2 without any need for evil blizzard to corrupt them. Day9 started changing his daily to sc2 content pretty early on. No one forced all of that to happen it is natural, I realize people who did not want to see that happen are still emotional about it but bw would had killed sc2 if people had not switched to it. The market rules.
|
On October 20 2012 09:43 act.hero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:40 Xiphos wrote:On October 20 2012 09:37 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:34 Xiphos wrote:On October 20 2012 09:23 iky43210 wrote:On October 20 2012 09:16 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:09 iky43210 wrote:On October 20 2012 09:05 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:02 mindspike wrote:On October 20 2012 09:00 VanGarde wrote:
[quote]
But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that. No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread? .... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport. I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend. But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena. The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone. wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular dude, Blizzard killed BW for SC2. AND poured in money for tournaments to happen... why so ignorant. SC2 killed BW yes because SC2 is a new more popular game. Not because of a massive evil conspiracy by Blizzard. If you mean in the sense that Blizzard made SC2 thus it killed BW then I guess you are right but the community switched to SC2. It didn't have to, but it did. This is how games evolve, when a new game in the same genre comes out, they attract the player base. This is also why sc2 should be more concerned about rts games than about LoL and dota. But this is a topic for another thread. History lessons now. Blizzard pretty much told the press that OGN/MBC was holding out illegal tournament which is a huge turn off to sponsors. And by suing MBC, he pretty much ended the game channel because the MBC HQ didn't want to go into ESPORT anymore because of this fiasco, thus effectively ending BW's 2nd line of hope. Subsequently, after the departure of MBCGame, teams gave up hope because they have seen little to no hope in the industry anymore, namely Hwaseung Oz and WeMade Fox (which also terminated their other relations to esport). This whole deal was sparked by Blizzard. This had lead to sponsors being more and more unwilling to sponsor the tournaments. Moreover, the recent OSL at the TVing's semifinal, Mike M. (the president of Blizzard Ent.) pretty much said "Oh yeah thanks a lot to BW and OGN for paving the road of progaming but stop toying around now because it really is the time to transition to SC2." Don't make arguments w/o any research. Blizzard told the press the tournaments were illegal because they were. They sued MBC because they broke copyright law. Blizzard was in the right.
If Blizzard were in the right, the wouldn't have abandoned their lawsuit with MBC.
The judge pretty much asked Blizzard about their definition of copyright infringement.
And then after some time Blizzard completely backed out because Kespa's argument was that the game is suppose to be a tool to entertain the world. While Blizzard only wanted monopoly to scene. This is why SC2 is in this such of a hellhole in the first place. Everyone relied on Blizzard. But they failed the expectation, nothing could have been done anymore.
If you want to call a game a 'sport', actually follow that model.
|
On October 20 2012 09:48 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:43 act.hero wrote:On October 20 2012 09:40 Xiphos wrote:On October 20 2012 09:37 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:34 Xiphos wrote:On October 20 2012 09:23 iky43210 wrote:On October 20 2012 09:16 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:09 iky43210 wrote:On October 20 2012 09:05 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:02 mindspike wrote:
[quote]
No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread? .... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport. I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend. But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena. The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone. wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular dude, Blizzard killed BW for SC2. AND poured in money for tournaments to happen... why so ignorant. SC2 killed BW yes because SC2 is a new more popular game. Not because of a massive evil conspiracy by Blizzard. If you mean in the sense that Blizzard made SC2 thus it killed BW then I guess you are right but the community switched to SC2. It didn't have to, but it did. This is how games evolve, when a new game in the same genre comes out, they attract the player base. This is also why sc2 should be more concerned about rts games than about LoL and dota. But this is a topic for another thread. History lessons now. Blizzard pretty much told the press that OGN/MBC was holding out illegal tournament which is a huge turn off to sponsors. And by suing MBC, he pretty much ended the game channel because the MBC HQ didn't want to go into ESPORT anymore because of this fiasco, thus effectively ending BW's 2nd line of hope. Subsequently, after the departure of MBCGame, teams gave up hope because they have seen little to no hope in the industry anymore, namely Hwaseung Oz and WeMade Fox (which also terminated their other relations to esport). This whole deal was sparked by Blizzard. This had lead to sponsors being more and more unwilling to sponsor the tournaments. Moreover, the recent OSL at the TVing's semifinal, Mike M. (the president of Blizzard Ent.) pretty much said "Oh yeah thanks a lot to BW and OGN for paving the road of progaming but stop toying around now because it really is the time to transition to SC2." Don't make arguments w/o any research. Blizzard told the press the tournaments were illegal because they were. They sued MBC because they broke copyright law. Blizzard was in the right. If Blizzard were in the right, the wouldn't have abandoned their lawsuit with MBC. The judge pretty much asked Blizzard about their definition of copyright infringement. And then after some time Blizzard completely backed out because Kespa's argument was that the game is suppose to be a tool to entertain the world. While Blizzard only wanted monopoly to scene. This is why SC2 is in this such of a hellhole in the first place. Everyone relied on Blizzard. But they failed the expectation, nothing could have been done anymore. If you want to call a game a 'sport', actually follow that model.
There are many threads around where we can all repeat "broodwar is like football, you don't pay copyright for the ball" "no broodwar works the way a professional league works where blizzard is the nhl or nfl and teams are licenced franchises" over and over again and get no where. It has nothing to do with this thread. It does not matter who was right between kespa and blizzard, it doesn't matter if they wanted to kill bw or not. The vast majority of players, casters and fans switched to sc2. They did not have to but they did, life sucks get over it.
|
On October 20 2012 09:46 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:40 Xiphos wrote:On October 20 2012 09:37 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:34 Xiphos wrote:On October 20 2012 09:23 iky43210 wrote:On October 20 2012 09:16 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:09 iky43210 wrote:On October 20 2012 09:05 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:02 mindspike wrote:On October 20 2012 09:00 VanGarde wrote:
[quote]
But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that. No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread? .... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport. I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend. But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena. The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone. wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular dude, Blizzard killed BW for SC2. AND poured in money for tournaments to happen... why so ignorant. SC2 killed BW yes because SC2 is a new more popular game. Not because of a massive evil conspiracy by Blizzard. If you mean in the sense that Blizzard made SC2 thus it killed BW then I guess you are right but the community switched to SC2. It didn't have to, but it did. This is how games evolve, when a new game in the same genre comes out, they attract the player base. This is also why sc2 should be more concerned about rts games than about LoL and dota. But this is a topic for another thread. History lessons now. Blizzard pretty much told the press that OGN/MBC was holding out illegal tournament which is a huge turn off to sponsors. And by suing MBC, he pretty much ended the game channel because the MBC HQ didn't want to go into ESPORT anymore because of this fiasco, thus effectively ending BW's 2nd line of hope. Subsequently, after the departure of MBCGame, teams gave up hope because they have seen little to no hope in the industry anymore, namely Hwaseung Oz and WeMade Fox (which also terminated their other relations to esport). This whole deal was sparked by Blizzard. This had lead to sponsors being more and more unwilling to sponsor the tournaments. Moreover, the recent OSL at the TVing's semifinal, Mike M. (the president of Blizzard Ent.) pretty much said "Oh yeah thanks a lot to BW and OGN for paving the road of progaming but stop toying around now because it really is the time to transition to SC2." Don't make arguments w/o any research. They WERE holding illegal tournaments. Kespa could have just paid the god damn money but as I said this is a topic for another thread. The point is that in the west, players switched to sc2 without any need for evil blizzard to corrupt them. Day9 started changing his daily to sc2 content pretty early on. No one forced all of that to happen it is natural, I realize people who did not want to see that happen are still emotional about it but bw would had killed sc2 if people had not switched to it. The market rules.
You do realize that even at BW's worth at recent years, it still managed to beat out SC2's viewership count by a relatively huge margin. In the JinAir OSL, BW had over 1.6 viewers from China.
Pre-hybrid bs, the stadium were filled to the absolute max with people standing by while GOM TV can barely fill up 50 people seats.
In one match of SKT vs KT, the national demography had listed 25% of the all teens from age 13 to 18 have watched it on TV.
All of those are in the recent 2 years.
The market is there but Blizzard killed it.
On October 20 2012 09:52 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:48 Xiphos wrote:On October 20 2012 09:43 act.hero wrote:On October 20 2012 09:40 Xiphos wrote:On October 20 2012 09:37 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:34 Xiphos wrote:On October 20 2012 09:23 iky43210 wrote:On October 20 2012 09:16 VanGarde wrote:On October 20 2012 09:09 iky43210 wrote:On October 20 2012 09:05 VanGarde wrote:
[quote]
.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport. I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend. But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena. The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone. wow as an esport was actually doing decently well for a couple of seasons by itself. Problem is not only is arena not balance, Blizzard did a terrible job advertising it as an esport. They basically said "we want this to be an esport" but never do anything with it but for something that receive almost no esport support and weren't designed for it, it still attracted a decently large amount of viewers on its time simply because it was popular dude, Blizzard killed BW for SC2. AND poured in money for tournaments to happen... why so ignorant. SC2 killed BW yes because SC2 is a new more popular game. Not because of a massive evil conspiracy by Blizzard. If you mean in the sense that Blizzard made SC2 thus it killed BW then I guess you are right but the community switched to SC2. It didn't have to, but it did. This is how games evolve, when a new game in the same genre comes out, they attract the player base. This is also why sc2 should be more concerned about rts games than about LoL and dota. But this is a topic for another thread. History lessons now. Blizzard pretty much told the press that OGN/MBC was holding out illegal tournament which is a huge turn off to sponsors. And by suing MBC, he pretty much ended the game channel because the MBC HQ didn't want to go into ESPORT anymore because of this fiasco, thus effectively ending BW's 2nd line of hope. Subsequently, after the departure of MBCGame, teams gave up hope because they have seen little to no hope in the industry anymore, namely Hwaseung Oz and WeMade Fox (which also terminated their other relations to esport). This whole deal was sparked by Blizzard. This had lead to sponsors being more and more unwilling to sponsor the tournaments. Moreover, the recent OSL at the TVing's semifinal, Mike M. (the president of Blizzard Ent.) pretty much said "Oh yeah thanks a lot to BW and OGN for paving the road of progaming but stop toying around now because it really is the time to transition to SC2." Don't make arguments w/o any research. Blizzard told the press the tournaments were illegal because they were. They sued MBC because they broke copyright law. Blizzard was in the right. If Blizzard were in the right, the wouldn't have abandoned their lawsuit with MBC. The judge pretty much asked Blizzard about their definition of copyright infringement. And then after some time Blizzard completely backed out because Kespa's argument was that the game is suppose to be a tool to entertain the world. While Blizzard only wanted monopoly to scene. This is why SC2 is in this such of a hellhole in the first place. Everyone relied on Blizzard. But they failed the expectation, nothing could have been done anymore. If you want to call a game a 'sport', actually follow that model. There are many threads around where we can all repeat "broodwar is like football, you don't pay copyright for the ball" "no broodwar works the way a professional league works where blizzard is the nhl or nfl and teams are licenced franchises" over and over again and get no where. It has nothing to do with this thread. It does not matter who was right between kespa and blizzard, it doesn't matter if they wanted to kill bw or not. The vast majority of players, casters and fans switched to sc2. They did not have to but they did, life sucks get over it.
Oh man, you really do need to learn some fundamental facts before ever posting on the industry.
The majority of the players stayed, ever read The Elephant in the Room?
And oh yeah Hybrid leagues had empty chairs with SC2 on the line.
|
in BW, ppl logged onto bnet to chat with friends, play 2v2/3v3 BGH, and play UMS games, not fucking 1v1 ladder.
|
Comparing LoL and SC2 (not sure how it works with dota2), both games work with a matchmaking system that gives you opponents that are around your skill level. If they are doing a good work, you should always be playing opponents picked for you, with harder opponents when you get better at the game.
With this in mind, I don't think you can say that these games have a hudge barrier of entry or that you must practice alot to be able to play and enjoy the game. Matchmaking makes it that if you are just a simple casual gamer, you will play other people like you, therefore you will be able to enjoy the game even if you're not good.
BW had none of this, if you wanted to play the "real game" (not UMS and other) you had to lose hundreds of games just to win one. It was brutal. 1v1 melee was brutal. That's why it was said to be a game for the hardcore population, to be able to even win once you need to get raped hundreds of time, and that takes alot of ressources that a more casual base is not willing to put into a single game. Had BW have some matchmaking, it would have been completly different, no matter how much you suck, you will play against people as bad as you. No more barrier of entry, welcome for casual gamers.
What I'm saying is those "games for hardcore gamers" ideas are BS, matchmaking welcomes every casual to the game, and it's a great thing. So what we have is simply casual gamers strafing from one casual game (sc2) to another one (for my example LoL, but it can be any other).
Why? that's where the speculation starts, maybe sc2 burns you out after a while, maybe it's simply not as fun playing it as other games.
The ridiculous aproach blizzard took while making the game is to blame imo, it looks like they went with the mindset of "this is going to be the best game because bw was so hudge, it doesn't matter what we do" and actually made the game how THEY wanted to do it, how to maximize profits (2 expansions, no cross region play) and simply ignoring other things that made bw online play great (as said before, no chat channels, super empthy ect..)
They need show some humility and give the game and the comunity the tools it needs to prosper, LAN, owned chat channels, name changes, region crossover ect
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
