Destiny: The Pro Scene Depends on the Casual Scene - Page 6

On October 20 2012 08:49 Lysenko wrote:


You can repeat it all you want, but since I pointed out the exact mechanism by which more players can lead to more viewers (advertisements or video streams on the splash screen), and since this has worked to add hugely to LoL stream numbers, I'd say you're flat-out wrong. Sorry.

On October 20 2012 08:52 VanGarde wrote:

But the LoL stream numbers are precisely that players playing the game. Most players are NOT stable customers they are transitional customers who come to a game when it is hyped and then disappear in three months. How can people be arguing that this is happening to sc2 right now while simultaneously being ignorant to the same process in other games?

On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote:
Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so.

On October 20 2012 08:59 mindspike wrote:


No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it.
The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier.

On October 20 2012 09:00 VanGarde wrote:

But then you are arguing something entirely different. You are arguing that the game is just bad, not for how to improve it as an e-sport. Go find a thread for that.

On October 20 2012 09:02 mindspike wrote:


No this is the exact thread for this. Have you even been reading what people are saying? Do you really need me to copy/paste all the replies in this thread?

On October 20 2012 09:05 VanGarde wrote:

.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.

On October 20 2012 09:05 VanGarde wrote:

.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.

On October 20 2012 08:59 mindspike wrote:


No this not what people are asking for. You don't get it.
The 1v1 game is not the problem. The problem is everything around it. The arcade sucks. BNET sucks. Team games suck (because random teams get matched up with arranged teams). The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with making 1v1 easier.

On October 20 2012 09:09 iky43210 wrote:

I disagree. If you have famous and popular UMS that can attract a large casual playerbase to continue playing sc2, most of them will at some point click on the tournament advertisements and get hook right back to the competitive scene. Outside of fans, most viewers will stray away from watching the competitive scene for a while. If there is nothing to remind them, they simply will leave the esport scene. Alot of times people get bored of sc2 tourney, leaves the game and never returns. Had I not been reminding a few of my friends about sc2 tourney they would probably not be watching the finals this weekend.

But I don't see this happening. This isn't the early 2000s anymore like where wc3 engine are amazing and one of the best for custom games. There are simply too many free and great engines out there for developers to go at and make games of their own for free

On October 20 2012 09:05 VanGarde wrote:
.... This is whole series of threads and arguments might be revolving around many things including suggestions for better ums and custom system but all of those discussions are with the emphasis on improving it so that sc2 stays competitive in e-sports. Seriously who is not reading the threads? This is not an sc2 bashing thread this comes from the question of what can be done to prevent other games from overrunning sc2 in terms of e-sports. My argument is that things like improving ums and what not might sure be good for the game in general but has little or no actual impact on the game as an esport.

On October 20 2012 09:13 Lysenko wrote:


The problem with your argument is that sports (e- or otherwise) don't get popular in a vacuum. Sports become spectator sports when they're commonly played by amateurs. Yes, once they achieve a certain media scale, they can take off in a way that's far out of proportion to their amateur player base, but for smaller sports, people watch them mainly when they play them, or have at least tried to play them in the past.

Jai-alai and polo are both very exciting sports to watch, but few people do because they're both not very common for amateurs and they haven't reached the scale necessary to take on a life of their own. That will only happen when there's enough money in broadcasting a sport to inspire major media companies to fight over the contracts to show the games.

On October 20 2012 09:18 VanGarde wrote:
Perhaps but that is more of an argument that ALL e-sport will inevitably be impossible because of how games work and because of how limited games lifespans are. No amount of artificial life support will keep LoL OR sc2 floating with a massive amateur playerbase for long enough. You might very well be right, but if you are right you are just proving that there will never ever be an e-sports scene, that will always only be short bubbles.

On October 20 2012 09:16 VanGarde wrote:

That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.

On October 20 2012 09:16 VanGarde wrote:


That does sound rational and sensible I agree. The problem. Every experiment in e-sports goes against this. Many games have attempted to be e-sports through the years and building a huge casual player base has just not translated into e-sports viewers ever. I hate to sound repetitive but again World of Warcraft, what 10 million players at the time they tried to get the wow Arena going as an e-sport? That many people playing the game you could compare those of those 10 million who did not play arena themselves to the people who play ums in sc2, and the millions who did play arena to people who play competitively on ladder. Despite that massive player base, LoL and sc2 could do everything right and would never ever have that player base, no game will. Despite all of that, wow arena failed in incredible fashion as an e-sport. People did not click in to view the arena even though they played the game, most of the people who did click in to view the arena didn't enjoy it. People who did not play wow for sure did not watch arena.

The point is that yes growing the player base is obviously not going to hurt the e-sport and you might get more viewers out of it but those are temporary viewers mostly. Working to improve ums and all of that is obviously fine, but it should not be done with the mentality that it is what you need to do to make the game bigger as an e-sport. Surely if we had statistics of broodwar players we would see massive losses in player base over the course of that game, the game did actually not take off as an e-sport until after most of the player base was gone.