EPTThat's not to say those things should be focused on at the expense of the 1v1 game, as there's still plenty of things to be worked on there but in terms of the casual player base ideas like "one mistake loses you the game" doesn't even matter until you hit masters.
Destiny: The Pro Scene Depends on the Casual Scene - Page 4
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HeavenResign
United States702 Posts
That's not to say those things should be focused on at the expense of the 1v1 game, as there's still plenty of things to be worked on there but in terms of the casual player base ideas like "one mistake loses you the game" doesn't even matter until you hit masters. | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
ppl who want to be independent and have the balls will always play 1v1 . ppl who want to get carried by the team or are not confident will most likely play team games as their career . | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
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Kommatiazo
United States579 Posts
While watching this video, I was reminded FORCEFULLY of someone else when I heard Destiny. Case and Point: + Show Spoiler + I'm not saying he's douche like Mr. White, just the way they argue their points seemed similar to me and I lol'd. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1603 Posts
On October 20 2012 06:55 DrowSwordsman wrote: Brood War wasn't any less frustrating to play, it's just that everyone who didn't play on iccup/pgtour/etc weren't aware how terribly awful they were and just played for fun. Blizzard needs to make the custom games, team games, and the social aspects more accessible and not feel like a cheap aside - I don't think most LoL players play ranked either. And most (casual) people who play LoL also aren't aware of how awful they are because a ridiculous amount believe in ELO Hell so they never play ranked. That's not to say those things should be focused on at the expense of the 1v1 game, as there's still plenty of things to be worked on there but in terms of the casual player base ideas like "one mistake loses you the game" doesn't even matter until you hit masters. They didn't make a good map maker program for custom maps like bunker wars and golems ect. They didn't make a good game search engine even though brood war's was kinda shitty you could still easily find a game. They don't let friends play with friends from a different server easily. They also jerked this game around so hard with balance patches that a lot of people who would play, had to do too much work to simply play the game. Which in turn still causes the pro scene games to be quite boring. Even 2 years later I just don't find the actual gameplay appealing in most matches. There aren't the wow factors there were in brood war because they took them out, so a casual would never get stomped by carries, or walking into hold position lurkers, ect. And now, a casual won't watch the GSL because the matches are boring, meanwhile there isn't a reason to log in to battle.net because they're discouraged by patches, and bullshit, so the casual stops paying attention. | ||
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hai2u
688 Posts
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Golbat
United States499 Posts
Destiny made really great points in his response. 1: Betamax vs VHS: VHS had a better marketing scheme and reached more people, thus became the standard. He compared this to Artosis' blog where he talks about starcraft being a game that people need to take time with to truly appreciate and understand. LoL doesn't take much time to understand and is fun to play once you have a grasp of the basics and can play a hero or two good enough to enjoy yourself. Starcraft is difficult to play without an understanding of build orders. You could say, "well hey, you can just get one all-in build and win plenty of games", but one all-in build gets you a lot of hate on the ladder. Hate that you don't necessarily get while playing LoL. It's completely understandable why people enjoy playing LoL even without the pay vs free aspect. 2: Sponsorships: Why would someone want to play 15 hours a day to win a 100k tournament, when they could play the same 15 hours to win a 1000k tournament? Why would sponsors sponsor an event with 50k viewers when they could sponsor an event with 650k viewers and a 95% demographic crossover rate? These are also good points. Of course, we could argue until we are blue in the face about the actual demographics of both games, but let's assume that 650k people can buy more shit than 50k people can. If I were a sponsor, I'd kick myself if I didn't try to sponsor a LoL event. Of course, SC2 events get sponsors as well, because 50k is no small number of people. But at the end of the day, more numbers is more potential customers. And SC2 doesn't have the numbers right now. 3: Getting people back to SC2: I haven't played SC2 in months now. I have pretty bad ladder anxiety and I'm too lazy to practice builds against the AI, and there are other games to play. I loved playing hero attack, and tower defense, and all the other customs though. The problem was, I never had people to talk to in between games. The graveyard that is B.net 2.0 is slowly killing SC2. There are other games that do the social aspect better. I myself play mostly single player games, so I couldn't really name any off the top of my head, but I assume LoL does it just by having a team aspect. I think that if Blizzard implemented the good old chat channels of Brood War, gave us replays we could watch with friends, and just spent more time focusing on the casual player of SC2, we'd have more viewers, more sponsors, more money, and more fun for everybody. | ||
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Mouzone
3937 Posts
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so. Well, it's what Destiny wants. But then again he seems to be in it mainly for the money which is probably the underlying catalyst for him bringing this up. His only source of income is from the stream, so naturally he wants the casuals to flock to it to increase his profit. Who can blame him, right? He's streaming for a living seeing as he has no sponsors nor is he winning tournaments. | ||
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TangYiChen
Korea (South)195 Posts
For the most part, I kind of agree with him minus the prize pool thing (1m / 5 = 200k each). Some SC2 players can easily make more than that through prize money. Hopefully the SC2 scene will become somewhat big in Korea (as LoL is being the most dominant game there) if HotS is good... | ||
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uzushould
Austria122 Posts
Most of the units are fast cheap and do a lot of dmg but die really fast, that makes micro in battle so much more important. High apm and good unitcontrol benefits from this facts, strategy knowledge and smartness don t. This makes it pretty entertaining to watch because its like a soccerplayer outplaying 2-3 enemies and make a goal....its fast, its actionpacked its entertaining to watch. But it doen t even matter how entertaining it is, someone who has not fun at playing sc2 will rarely watch a lot of tornaments...its more important to have a lot of casual players play the game, they will then automaticly watch tornaments, just like destiny says. i was playing mid to high mastersleage and i d say my ability to micro and makro are limited (can t get more then 150 apm overall)....because .... well i think i m allready too old for this, this 15 year old guys have a huge advantage over me in this case. I realised this, when i started to play Tiberium wars (command and conquer) again, its not as competetiv and not as deep as sc2 is, but its just so much more fun, and some of my friends who started to play TW again agree....TW was allways more fun then sc2 and will allways be more fun.....the only reason we switched to sc2 was because there are so less players in TW its difficult to get good games and because sc2 was a new game, so we talked ourselfs into it. As well i think balance is broken on different skill levels and only balanced on the pro level....that is anyoing too and causes many players to stop playing sc2 | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On October 20 2012 07:22 hai2u wrote: its too late, even if Blizzard comes up with the greatest Bnet ever in HOTS, most of the casuals have already left, they're not coming back. Nah, the casual players who have quit will come back in droves to play through the campaign, and will probably give the multiplayer side a shot to see how they feel about it. If there's something great in place for them when they do that, it'll be possible to get them to stick around. | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On October 20 2012 07:23 Mouzone wrote: Well, it's what Destiny wants. But then again he seems to be in it mainly for the money which is probably the underlying catalyst for him bringing this up. His only source of income is from the stream, so naturally he wants the casuals to flock to it to increase his profit. Who can blame him, right? He's streaming for a living seeing as he has no sponsors nor is he winning tournaments. In a lot of ways, though, his self-interest lines up with all of our interests as people who are still playing (or at least watching) the game. More people more engaged means more viewers for him, a bigger community, more people playing the game, better support for better-produced professional content, shorter queue times in game, you name it, it all gets better. | ||
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BoggieMan
520 Posts
On October 20 2012 04:37 rift wrote: I'd like the community to be smaller and more mature. Fewer tournaments would be nice as well. Then all the proffessionals that were used to get somewhat big salaries are gonna leave and play LoL or do other stuff, and all the tournaments are gonna be with no prizes, and won by people who are now in platinium league. :/ I really agree with destiny regarding how little the proffesional players care about the casual players, even though they are what supports their income. Its like farming wheat without looking at your fields a single time during the entire year and then harvesting and hoping you get lucky with the weather. | ||
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Northern_iight
Canada363 Posts
On October 20 2012 04:35 jj33 wrote: Not trying to be argumentative, but I am not clear on this. I'm assuming most casual gamers do not watch sc2 tournaments much if at all. So how does making the game more "casual friendly" help? I remember in the bw days, (when I was still playing) most people that played BGH etc did not follow the pro scene anyways. I just think games like LoL is more appealing to the masses. I mean sc1/bw wasn't a game that had mass appeal too. Once again not trying to disagree or be argumentative. I don't think LoL is more appealing. The only reason why LoL has 500k viewers on a tourny is because more players play that game casually. Take note of how many SC2 players quit because of various reasons (mainly being ladder anxiety). It's not a casual game. The custom games suck in SC2, thus making it not a fund game to play casually. LoL is for the casual gamer. There is a pro scene but the game was always meant to be for casual players. Being free in the first place. Targeting the masses unlike SC2 with the larger learning curve targeted more hardcore players. Think of how many of your RL friends own sc2? I think 100% of my friends who actually play computer games... also own SC2. Currently only I'm left playing SC2 because I was the only one that moved from casual to competitive. I don't get what is so hard to understand from blizzard that they have to cater to the masses. Not by balancing the game to it's easier at the bronze league but improving the game that people have been complaining to all along. Things like the user interface, chat channels, name changes, and custom games. SC2 just isn't for the casual gamer so it will become less and less popular. | ||
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Leth0
856 Posts
On October 20 2012 07:04 VanGarde wrote: Although at some level I really hope that Blizzard overreacts and falls for all of this hysteria and does exactly what people want, focus on pandering to the casual player all in and make sc2 into a new LoL, a ridiculously dumbed down game that you can play half asleep. That is apparently what people want. It would be worth it just to be able to say I told you so. This is what I believe will happen too. The thing is blizzard moves so slow that it will just take forever for them to do it. | ||
Falling
Canada11524 Posts
On TL it probably felt like there's an over representation of ladder gamers, but I rather suspect these were the rare birds in SCBW. Of all my real life friends that I've ever played with in SCBW, I am the only one that has ever played online against strangers never mind 1v1 ranked games. And I am the only one that will bother practicing openings and specific maneuvers and builds over and over again. All my other friends just want to play a fun comp stomp or play 2v2v2's with each other or play some fun custom map. And so that's definitely where Battlenet 0.2 has failed. Let the ladder be what the ladder is and don't hinder crazy hard skills to master for fear of losing the casual. They probably won't naturally gravitate to ladder games anyways. That's certainly not what is going to draw them in. If at the beginning SC2 hadn't felt like a pristine graveyard with a terrible custom game lobby that felt like no-one was on, no chat channels (and even now chat channels are compatmentalized enough so as to not exist unless you seek them out) and no shared-replays, we could hold on to casuals. But that's where Blizzard should've thrown their energy if they wanted to keep casuals. Not this huge focus on getting everyone laddering and ignoring micro tricks. Casuals will ladder if they like the game enough, but 1v1 is not for everyone and I don't think it's as big a selling point as we competitive people would like to think. In addition, like any AAA gaming company, they really need to re-evaluate their pricing for a game that's been out for a year. Especially if you're planning on releasing sequels, that price needs to be dropping pretty quickly after the first year so the game spread even further. And they should've had a one click button to stream tournaments like LoL does if they want to open the casuals minds to the competitive scene. (Made a thread about this like a year ago.) Yeah Blizzard is finally promoting it with a text link, but it's still inferior to how LoL promotes their tournaments. edit tldr In short, Battlenet 0.2 feels like it was built around 1v1 ladder play with custom games/ the social side tacked on. I don't mind if the game itself is built around 1v1 ladder play. In fact for it to be a competitive game, I think it must. But in retrospect Battlenet ought not to have been built around 1v1 ladder play. | ||
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Mouzone
3937 Posts
On October 20 2012 07:43 Lysenko wrote: In a lot of ways, though, his self-interest lines up with all of our interests as people who are still playing (or at least watching) the game. More people more engaged means more viewers for him, a bigger community, more people playing the game, better support for better-produced professional content, shorter queue times in game, you name it, it all gets better. That's not entirely true. The premise was that Blizzard would dumb the game itself down for all that to happen, let's say to a... LoL state. That's not something i'd want, ever. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
It's pretty obvious the guys working at SC2 right now, aren't either putting enough effort or simply lack the necessary quality to make a good game. Even the music is shitty for crying out loud. Blizzard doesn't really seem what it used to be. | ||
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