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how2TL
1197 Posts
On October 20 2012 05:22 BreakfastBurrito wrote: LoL stream numbers are massively inflated, I wonder what the real numbers are. Still higher than SC2 by far but not quite as staggering as some people suggest. Get used to reality. | ||
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PardonYou
United States1360 Posts
I really like Destiny's thoughts here, though. He usually has well thought out arguments. A lot this week. | ||
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alwinuz
Netherlands77 Posts
On October 20 2012 04:49 ETisME wrote: ... Some believe making a game harder to play would make the win more rewarding. Some believe making the game easier to play would allow the casual to enjoy more. But the game should just be fun to play, not harder/easier. On October 20 2012 05:17 r4pture wrote: People seem to misunderstand things like this. Catering to casual players doesn't mean dumbing down the 1v1. In fact, Casuals don't PLAY 1v1. SC, both BW and 2, are essentially two games packaged as one. You have the ladder, 1v1 tryhard, highly competitive, and then you have Custom/UMS games. Nexus Wars, Mineralz, Starjeweled, and the like. Fact is, I haven't played any form of ladder in over a year now. I'm a competitive gamer, but a competitive FPS player, and relearning my entire approach to play isn't really worth it because I always go back to FPS. The custom games however are great and I play at least every other day, they're fun and lower pressure. THATS what needs focus. Not only the custom side, but user interaction. Chat rooms, groups, etc etc. Battle.net 2.0 is a dead, empty place, with empty space and a hard to use interface when it comes to finding people and finding custom games. I agree that focusing almost entirely on ladder/melee was, and is a mistake. Sadly, from the screens released for HoTS, it doesn't seem thats changed much (just made prettier), and is likely not a game I or a LOT of other people are going to pick up because of that. Totally agree with both! I see myself playing less and less, the game is just becoming boring. Battle.net feels so lonely... Why dont they start the SC2 game with a big live chatroom and all kind of buttons to interact with others and play games just for fun? I hope this will get improved in HOTS. | ||
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radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
Anyway Destiny is right, but there will always be a niche market for SC2 that will allow people to have their tournaments, which is as it should be. The size and pool for tournaments should be proportional to the number of people who enjoy the game; if its small then its small. I feel like some people are in denial, some want SC2 to be the greatest esport of all time and can't accept that others like other games more, so they denigrate them as stupid or blame sponsors for not investing enough, or blame Blizzard for not advertising enough. The problem isn't anything except SC2 itself. The game is simply not appealing enough to the vast majority of people, and by now I doubt that anything is going to make people seriously reconsider. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On October 20 2012 04:29 bokeevboke wrote: I think you are alone with your opinion. Tons of people are switching to LoL (well not exactly 'switching' but devoting their time). Unfortunately very few people like you are around, which is clearly not enough for starcraft 2. Starcraft 2 and LoL are not that different in esports aspect. Its not like comparing Starcraft 2 to UEFA... He's not alone. I don't care about LoL or Dota, I would never play or watch them, they're not interesting to me. SC2 is for me a much deeper, more interesting game. | ||
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Inex
Bulgaria443 Posts
SC2 is a brilliant game, but I do miss the stupid titles on custom games, the public games with obs, the trivia bots in the chat, the clan wars, battle.net tournament, etc. These are all things Blizzard can improve on and HOTS is their chance to get back lost players and attract new people. They can do it and I am sure they will, I just hope it's not too late. | ||
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Supamang
United States2298 Posts
On October 20 2012 05:25 namori wrote: Wow people shunning artosis' passion and siding with someone like destiny who just want more casual players to watch his stream Wow youre being dramatic and prejudicial. Use your head. Youre just blindly infatuated with Artosis because of his stature in the community and blindly hating Destiny because of unrelated past incidences. Try actually listening to what he has to say and you'll probably agree with him. I like Artosis' passion, thats what makes the pro scene so great. People who care about the game can strive to reach new heights without much motivation other than their love for the game. Thats why there's such a separation between the pros and us casuals and thats what makes the major tournaments so impressive. However, Destiny is absolutely right in that going on and on about the "beauty" of this game does nothing to stop the dwindling of the fan base. Catering balance decisions towards the pro community is great for the legitimacy of the game, but ignoring the casual fan base in the process is just shooting yourself in the foot. | ||
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SilSol
Sweden2744 Posts
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namori
Japan26 Posts
On October 20 2012 05:52 Supamang wrote: Wow youre being dramatic and prejudicial. Use your head. Youre just blindly infatuated with Artosis because of his stature in the community and blindly hating Destiny because of unrelated past incidences. Try actually listening to what he has to say and you'll probably agree with him. I like Artosis' passion, thats what makes the pro scene so great. People who care about the game can strive to reach new heights without much motivation other than their love for the game. Thats why there's such a separation between the pros and us casuals and thats what makes the major tournaments so impressive. However, Destiny is absolutely right in that going on and on about the "beauty" of this game does nothing to stop the dwindling of the fan base. Catering balance decisions towards the pro community is great for the legitimacy of the game, but ignoring the casual fan base in the process is just shooting yourself in the foot. He's always pointing out viewers viewers viewers viewers viewers viewers viewers viewers which is the only thing he wants because he lives off of them. Artosis is caring about the game itself. I honestly don't care about viewer numbers, I want a great competitive game to watch and play | ||
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
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HeavenResign
United States702 Posts
Even the LoL people are saying a big reason tournaments aren't dull is because of new champions. New maps that haven't been figured out offer new strategies. Pros will keep saying it's too risky and will ruin tournaments like they've been since Steppes of War but at this point I'm not sure how much we have to lose in terms of viewership numbers. I guess that's sort of an aside since this doesn't have tons to do with casuals but there's obviously a ton of work to do on tha front as well - Starcraft is a really awesome part of my life but I'm not logged in nearly as much as I was in Brood War. Even though I only played a few games a day I was probably logged in 5 - 6 hours every day in the background just because. Now there's really no reason to unless I know I'm going to make time to ladder. | ||
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
SC2 ive found caters for the older gamer, its harder and requires more time to learn, the people i teach who bought the game dont play it any more but are level 30 [del]40+[/del](EDIT just bashing keys  ) on lol (im lvl11 cos id sooner play sc2) Starcraft is a great game, Destiny is right with the casual market, more players. FREE always dominates the polls. the bottom line is sc2 is harder, takes longer and you have to pay for it. lol is easy, free and . . .well free! | ||
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ProV1
United States980 Posts
On October 20 2012 06:13 StatixEx wrote: overall this is a pretty daft argument and there is just 1 factor which is ruling all of this and i cant believe ive not read it yet. BW was one of its kind, this shit was just starting out and gave us innovation. New games arent doing this anymore. LOL and all the other mobas soon became innovative as it was a different way to play the core game (wc3). You could argue sc and wc are the same game except the focus went on units rather than a char/hero . .its the same fucking game but you could choose what you liked best, micro v macro . . simple. A very good contrast of essentially the same game. My point is this however, games come out too thick and fast. The trends will always shift. sc2 seems like its in a slump, its not. i personally think we have been over saturated with it. Soon this will happen to lol and then some other shit will come out further dividing the fanbase. sc2 is not dead and is not going to die, lol is prosperous right now and WILL ALWAYS BE COS ITS FUCKING FREE this is the main factor which is driving the popularity, that and the fact its easy as shit to pick up and play and has an interface with loads of customisation. It specs like wow. 11 million people play that game dont you know?. Serious. im 32 years old, got a decent job and buy everything, i have been playing games sc(mostly) all my life. most of you reading and responding to this will still be at home with ur parents, no job and or below 20 . . YOU dont have a family and havent got much disposable income so dont buy sc2 and its patches which may be £30+ get lol and play it forever for free. Another point is this, i work with 11-16's. i have the xbox360 vs ps3 argument every day. Why do 90% of the people i teach have a ps3. Me and all my mates own them all, but just polay the xbox. Their first point in explaining why the ps3 is better is the online is free and that is their ONLY argument. they then start talkin shit like got uncharted and better graphics but we all know this is whatever speak. SC2 ive found caters for the older gamer, its harder and requires more time to learn, the people i teach who bought the game dont play it any more but are level 40+ on lol (im lvl11 cos id sooner play sc2) Starcraft is a great game, Destiny is right with the casual market, more players. FREE always dominates the polls. the bottom line is sc2 is harder, takes longer and you have to pay for it. lol is easy, free and . . .well free! The max lvl cap on LoL is 30. | ||
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AnalThermometer
Vatican City State334 Posts
I also disagree with the idea that it's a 95% crossover, but let's fly with that for a second. Destiny is seeing LoL much like record companies have seen the internet since about Napster. If there is a 95% crossover then the huge influx of people LoL is introducing to eSports will intermingle with the SC2 viewers, whether it be at "LANs" (lel) or online. It doesn't have to be portrayed as all one way traffic away from SC2, some of those LoL players will watch and try out Starcraft as well. All these different games help enrich the scene overall, bringing more investment. SC2 still has tricks up its sleeve. Blizzard have been working on this Blizzard Allstars game for quite a long time now to grab the casual audience, they've delayed it specifically to entice the casual gamer. Although I like playing DotA2 I'm actually interested in it because I'm pretty tired of the sa,e old DotA/HoN formula. Remember StarJeweled? It was a damn fun and what we need more of to keep SC2 fresh. I have to agree with what lalush said somewhere that Blizzard must know a lot of these problems but the team is probably operating almost barebones, once SC2 DotA is complete I think some extra manpower will be free'd up. HotS Beta is exactly the right time for feedback but I find all the panic kinda funny, I love watching the Destiny fanbase. | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
On October 20 2012 04:44 Thylacine wrote: He is 100% right but I don't think Artosis will bother trying to believe and understand what he actually says. Imho, Artosis is blinded by the ''beauty of Sc2'' and all that stuff. This song makes me think of how the actual SC2 situation is atm: How? Because it's the same thing. There are major problems, problems that must be fixed, and we, the people must unite and fix it... We must do everything in our power to make Blizzard wake the fuck up, theoretically we need to construct a 10 ton church bell and ring it so hard that Blizzard's headquarters shake and tremble. One day... Never....ever....use Nickelback as an example for anything. I repeat: never. Ever. Unless it is a scornful or mean spirited comparison. | ||
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Warzilla
Czech Republic311 Posts
 It was like he was imagining himself having to switch to lol or something... First time ever i got scared like crap because all of the points mentioned in the video are the goddamn truth... I hope sc2 is not gonna end like this.. | ||
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YokaY
United States108 Posts
On October 20 2012 04:29 bokeevboke wrote: I think you are alone with your opinion. Tons of people are switching to LoL (well not exactly 'switching' but devoting their time). Unfortunately very few people like you are around, which is clearly not enough for starcraft 2. Starcraft 2 and LoL are not that different in esports aspect. Its not like comparing Starcraft 2 to UEFA... What? You know people still play broodwar even though there's no money involved? People still play wc3 competitively and, there are still tournaments for it. Just cause there's no enormous e-sports scene doesn't mean the game is dead. | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
I played WC3 for almost 10 years. Even at the end, there was a small but hardcore group of players. That's all I, personally, need. And I know SC2 will be much larger than that for an extended period of time. I realize my desires don't necessarily coincide with community ambition. I want a hardcore competitive game that challenges me, and I want to be able to play it against 1k-10k people (at least). SC2 provides that, and more. If casuals want to play a game like LoL - let them. I'll be sniggering and queueing up another ladder game with the hardcore faithful. | ||
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Dexington
Canada7276 Posts
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
On October 20 2012 06:13 StatixEx wrote: overall this is a pretty daft argument and there is just 1 factor which is ruling all of this and i cant believe ive not read it yet. BW was one of its kind, this shit was just starting out and gave us innovation. New games arent doing this anymore. LOL and all the other mobas soon became innovative as it was a different way to play the core game (wc3). You could argue sc and wc are the same game except the focus went on units rather than a char/hero . .its the same fucking game but you could choose what you liked best, micro v macro . . simple. A very good contrast of essentially the same game. My point is this however, games come out too thick and fast. The trends will always shift. sc2 seems like its in a slump, its not. i personally think we have been over saturated with it. Soon this will happen to lol and then some other shit will come out further dividing the fanbase. sc2 is not dead and is not going to die, lol is prosperous right now and WILL ALWAYS BE COS ITS FUCKING FREE this is the main factor which is driving the popularity, that and the fact its easy as shit to pick up and play and has an interface with loads of customisation. It specs like wow. 11 million people play that game dont you know?. Serious. im 32 years old, got a decent job and buy everything, i have been playing games sc(mostly) all my life. most of you reading and responding to this will still be at home with ur parents, no job and or below 20 . . YOU dont have a family and havent got much disposable income so dont buy sc2 and its patches which may be £30+ get lol and play it forever for free. Another point is this, i work with 11-16's. i have the xbox360 vs ps3 argument every day. Why do 90% of the people i teach have a ps3. Me and all my mates own them all, but just polay the xbox. Their first point in explaining why the ps3 is better is the online is free and that is their ONLY argument. they then start talkin shit like got uncharted and better graphics but we all know this is whatever speak. SC2 ive found caters for the older gamer, its harder and requires more time to learn, the people i teach who bought the game dont play it any more but are level 40+ on lol (im lvl11 cos id sooner play sc2) Starcraft is a great game, Destiny is right with the casual market, more players. FREE always dominates the polls. the bottom line is sc2 is harder, takes longer and you have to pay for it. lol is easy, free and . . .well free! currently i am prefering LoL over SC2. Is it because i am cheap? No, i actually bought the game (SC2). Is it because i do not appreciate the strategy, because i am too stupid? I don't think so, and after about 300 games spread over two years i was promoted to masters, and while only playing about one week in 8 or so i can still keep up with top diamond. Am i just not the RTS-kind of guy? No, i played about 10 years on average ~3 hours every day of Settlers 2 Gold edition, Anno 1602, Age of Empires (I + II), pretty much every part of the command and conquer series, BW, WC 3, WLBC 2 + 3 and many more. Even two week in reinstalled Age of Empires 2 TC and started plowing through the campaign once more. The only RTS that i dislike playing however is SC2. Why? Because it feels like a mistake-game to me. If i win, i can pinpoint the mistake my opponent did, and do not feel very good about the win. If i lose, it usually is just one minor error as well. It is simply frustrating that all my efforts to build up, explore and set up are decided within two second, where i lose my banshee, or my army gets fungaled (and fungaled again and again), or i lose only very few roaches but it is enough that the enemy blink stalkers pile up and snowball into invincibility. Or i miss that one photon cannon, or i did not send one siege tank into battle, or i did not dodge that one storm perfectly, or my vikings were out of position, or my colossus took a weird path. Or i attack into forcefields + colossus and do not kill a single unit while losing my whole army, or suddenly there is a DT in every base and i lose, or there are 3 blue flame hellions roasting every single probe in about two seconds. There IS too much damage in this game, and it swings too fast in one's favour, thus abruptly pretty much deciding the game right there. How many epic comebacks can you remember? Probably less than 10. In LoL i can be far behind, but given the right team and cooperation we can work as hard as we can and still come back and win. I would even dare and say it is the case for at least 5% of my games in LoL, where i still win after a huge disadvantage early on. One early death may put you severely behind, but it can be fixed. Whereas the loss of one or two stalkers in an early PvP - go figure. As for those who say that it is a beautiful and complex game, and how hard it is to not make mistakes makes for a great pro scene due to a huge skill ceiling - true. But take this as an example: I once played a game, similar to Super Mario (you basically just run and jump and try to get from save point to save point). On average difficulty it was okay, and a nice game. On harder difficulty the stuns you had to pull were pretty difficult, and it took hours of finger muscle memory training to beat a couple rooms to make it to the next save point. On the hardest difficulty however, there was only one save point in the middle and one at the end (or none at all). When it took me hours to just train for a couple of those hindrances, doing them all without saving and restarting in between? Impossible. And that is how i feel about SC2 right now. It has so many downfalls, it is nearly impossible to play perfect. You just have to play the best you can and bank on your opponent to make a mistake. You do not win by a smart strategy or tactic, but rather by a plain misclick or badly taken fight of your opponent. Maybe he messed up in scouting, maybe he clumped up his high templar. Maybe you missed that little probe sneaking onto your ramp, blocking it with a pylon and a forge. In any case, the game is simply over, you do not get much of a satisfactory win, nor do you get a fair beating, it is just done and leaves you with a bad taste. Go play Age of Empires, where you CAN lose to early cheese, but a war still takes 10+ minutes of constant fighting, small skirmishes, runbys, incredible unit micro, correct counterunits and counterplay and factors in unique civilization attributes. Even if you lose, you usually had an epic fight, and not just 20 seconds. Thus, in my opinion, SC2 is not fun to play at all. A game can be hard to master but easy to learn (LoL), and can be hard to master and frustrating to play (SC2). That is my reasoning behind the constant decrease in active SC2 players (and following that, decreasing interest in SC2 tournaments/streams) | ||
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