EPTHaving played and loved both I think LoL is a superior game over the long term, as it remains fun and doesn't become a job like sc2 does.
Destiny: The Pro Scene Depends on the Casual Scene - Page 2
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mememolly
4765 Posts
Having played and loved both I think LoL is a superior game over the long term, as it remains fun and doesn't become a job like sc2 does. | ||
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Penev
28431 Posts
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Sega92
United States467 Posts
"Do you think people are going to want to bust their balls playing 15 hours a day of a game like Starcraft 2 and make like maybe $100K when there are million dollar tournaments for League of Legends?" its not about the FUCKING MONEY if you're only here or only playing sc2 to make money the gtfo! we don't want you if thats the case...we're all here because we love the game and if someone is exploiting its popularity to make money then fuck them I'll be playing sc2 for years to come as i have these last few years and as i did with brood war all the years before it and yes sc2 is shrinking but this is long overdue, the tournaments with less money will die out and then we will have ourselves a set # of tourneys that we all watch and love. but now with a new tournament every fucking week and 10 streams across all languages and X amount of prize money and blah blah blah. im sick of it, i would rather play the game and only watch like 1 or maybe 2 tournaments that i follow like the gsl and osl and MAYBE MLG but that is usually a waste of my weekend because there is one casted match then 3 hours staring at a screen showing the audience (maybe thats changed recently but last time i watched mlg that was the case) i think the reason that viewership has dropped is because people are realizing they'd rather PLAY the game than just sit around and watch it all the time | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
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mememolly
4765 Posts
On October 20 2012 04:57 Sega92 wrote: its not about the FUCKING MONEY if you're only here or only playing sc2 to make money the gtfo! we don't want you if thats the case...we're all here because we love the game and if someone is exploiting its popularity to make money then fuck them I'll be playing sc2 for years to come as i have these last few years and as i did with brood war all the years before it and yes sc2 is shrinking but this is long overdue, the tournaments with less money will die out and then we will have ourselves a set # of tourneys that we all watch and love. but now with a new tournament every fucking week and 10 streams across all languages and X amount of prize money and blah blah blah. im sick of it, i would rather play the game and only watch like 1 or maybe 2 tournaments that i follow like the gsl and osl and MAYBE MLG but that is usually a waste of my weekend because there is one casted match then 3 hours staring at a screen showing the audience (maybe thats changed recently but last time i watched mlg that was the case) i think the reason that viewership has dropped is because people are realizing they'd rather PLAY the game than just sit around and watch it all the time dude, every company in sc2 wants to make money, that will not happen if there is a small audience for sc2 and a big one for LoL, we need to forget this "everyone's in it for the luv of esports" bullshit | ||
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Davron
United States86 Posts
It's hard to imagine how Blizzard can "save" SC2 and shoot up to 650,000 viewer tournaments. The game isn't suddenly going to be transformed and be made appealing for a large audience. It is now becoming the core game of the tournament scene and we will be playing second fiddle to LoL and DOTA2 from here on out. Don't be sad until it's gone forever, just continue supporting your favorite pros! | ||
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jj33
802 Posts
On October 20 2012 04:59 Davron wrote: When it comes down to it, money will overpower any beauty and technicality that any game has to offer. If LoL can generate more money, that's where sponsors will go. Destiny can not be wrong here as this is basic business fundamentals since as long as modern economics has existed. It's hard to imagine how Blizzard can "save" SC2 and shoot up to 650,000 viewer tournaments. The game isn't suddenly going to be transformed and be made appealing for a large audience. It is now becoming the core game of the tournament scene and we will be playing second fiddle to LoL and DOTA2 from here on out. Don't be sad until it's gone forever, just continue supporting your favorite pros! that's the thing, I never had this expectation of sc2 to grow so large. LIke I said, it's an RTS. RTS in general was never a huge genre. Like you said, maybe it's the natural order of things, that a game like sc2 will never be as appealing / big to the masses like LoL or dota. | ||
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VPVanek
Canada238 Posts
I remember with WC3, they had daily tournaments ran by blizzard, TONS of UMS, chat channels for your friends, and ofcourse you could ban people out of your channel if they were annyoing! Watching replays with buddies. So what does SC2 have, a game that was released way after. The sad thing? It has NONE of those. So as a player, what drive do I have to keep playing? Rank up the ladder points? The options for selecting UMS is garbage, and if it isn't on the "front page" nobody will every join my damn game. I don't really think Destiny is right in a sense. Blizzard can market SC2 all they want, but how do you know people will tune into these streams and what not? Well... The reason why LoL suceeds and Starcraft doesn't is because of the skill cap. LoL is very easy to start playing and understand, you can get fairly good pretty easily. But with starcraft that really isn't the case. It takes quite the long time to fully understand what is going on, and to grasp the game. I think that reason alone is why starcraft wont grow. | ||
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Mouzone
3937 Posts
With that said, I want to bring up a few things to balance his rather biased stance in the questions. First off he assumes that big prize pools equal success and a healthy game. While that is possible, in this case it's known that Riot sponsor many and most importantly the biggest tournaments themselves so we really don't know. Does Blizzard sponsor any tournaments? A few as far as I know, but the rest of SC2 tournaments are built on outside parties' willingness to put in cash. Furthermore there aren't as many tournaments in LoL as there are in SC2, so I wouldn't be too quick about deeming LoL the unconditional victor because there is one or a few tournaments with very high prizes. Also he seems to be disregarding the fact that prizes in LoL are split on what, 5-6 players (starting line-up + eventual standins) and potentially the gaming organisation behind the players takes a cut aswell. The thing with LoL I think is that the prize pools don't really reflect the difficulty of the game so it's a semi-bubble that way, but I suppose it won't be a problem as long as long as money is being put in. Second: does Destiny have any information regarding the demographics of those "650k viewers" or is he pulling supposed knowledge regarding those peoples' preferences out of his arse? As far as I know LoL is particularly big in asian countries, the same countries where the wages are extremely low internationally speaking and people spend a lot of time in internet cafés because they simply can't afford computers and especially not fancy gaming peripherals. The fact that LoL is a free game is imperative to those people even playing the game, and them showing interest in it. Hell, i'd estimate the purchasing power among many of the western LoL players is weak aswell, as many are drawn to the game because it's free. Now, exactly how much effect does he think marketing will have when a big portion of the audience can't even afford the products marketed? LoL is known for directing people to tournament streams from within the game browser itself, so logically you'd expect the viewers of the stream to consist of a lot of the beforementioned people because they are probably a majority of the LoL player base. I remember Destiny being fond of the marketing term conversion rate, and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the aggregated CR for those 50k SC2 viewers wasn't that much less than for those "650k" LoL viewers. | ||
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Eventine
United States307 Posts
On October 20 2012 04:37 rift wrote: I'd like the community to be smaller and more mature. Fewer tournaments would be nice as well. I don't know about smaller, but more mature definitely. And fewer tourneys too, I feel like i've watched enough gaming streams for a life time in the last 2 years | ||
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Eventine
United States307 Posts
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jj33
802 Posts
On October 20 2012 05:06 VPVanek wrote: I think the big problem with starcraft 2 is that it doesn't have something to keep casual players there, and to keep playing. I remember with WC3, they had daily tournaments ran by blizzard, TONS of UMS, chat channels for your friends, and ofcourse you could ban people out of your channel if they were annyoing! Watching replays with buddies. So what does SC2 have, a game that was released way after. The sad thing? It has NONE of those. So as a player, what drive do I have to keep playing? Rank up the ladder points? The options for selecting UMS is garbage, and if it isn't on the "front page" nobody will every join my damn game. I don't really think Destiny is right in a sense. Blizzard can market SC2 all they want, but how do you know people will tune into these streams and what not? Well... The reason why LoL suceeds and Starcraft doesn't is because of the skill cap. LoL is very easy to start playing and understand, you can get fairly good pretty easily. But with starcraft that really isn't the case. It takes quite the long time to fully understand what is going on, and to grasp the game. I think that reason alone is why starcraft wont grow. Even with all those features you listed that wc3 had, I remember when dota popped up, it still kicked wc3's ass. I agree, as I said as well, games like LoL naturally have more appeal than a game like sc2. | ||
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Northern_iight
Canada363 Posts
On October 20 2012 04:52 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: I don't think we really need a pro scene. The game won't die (there is no comparable RTS out there), so there will be enough opponents on bnet and there will be streams and high level play even with only 'amateurs' playing. RTS are nerdish games comparable to (partially) chess, i don't think they have real mass-potential. They'll have a stable slowly growing audience and player base, but will not be mainstream ever. soccer > chess  .A big plus is that RTS tend to keep long term interest (if blizzard does not decide to simplify Starcraft further). This will make the fan base much more stable which is important long term. I think LOL will peak and fade away. A good, complex RTS will stay. So it is probably not a good idea to make sc2 more simple long term, as you'll get bored once the optimal builds+compositions are figured out. It was a major plus of BW micro-heavy design, that even after 5 years of play, new players and playstyles rose relying on specializing in microing specific units . I agree with you there but the point is that we SC2 players want SC2 to be THE esport game. We want it to be the biggest and best game out there. SC2 was support to revitalize the BW scene but it didn't happen. The foreign community did embrace it but it's now slowly deteriorating due to several reasons. Mainly lack of sponsorship. And there isn't much sponsorship because of viewership. That's just one of the reasons. Not to mention the whole balance side of things and how hard it is to watch zvp. | ||
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LoLAdriankat
United States4307 Posts
On October 20 2012 05:07 Mouzone wrote: Why does Destiny make it out like LoL is just some random game just lying there, open for anyone to just pick up and win a million bucks? It takes some effort to win even in LoL. + Show Spoiler + With that said, I want to bring up a few things to balance his rather biased stance in the questions. First off he assumes that big prize pools equal success and a healthy game. While that is possible, in this case it's known that Riot sponsor many and most importantly the biggest tournaments themselves so we really don't know. Does Blizzard sponsor any tournaments? A few as far as I know, but the rest of SC2 tournaments are built on outside parties' willingness to put in cash. Furthermore there aren't as many tournaments in LoL as there are in SC2, so I wouldn't be too quick about deeming LoL the unconditional victor because there is one or a few tournaments with very high prizes. Also he seems to be disregarding the fact that prizes in LoL are split on what, 5-6 players (starting line-up + eventual standins) and potentially the gaming organisation behind the players takes a cut aswell. The thing with LoL I think is that the prize pools don't really reflect the difficulty of the game so it's a semi-bubble that way, but I suppose it won't be a problem as long as long as money is being put in. Second: does Destiny have any information regarding the demographics of those "650k viewers" or is he pulling supposed knowledge regarding those peoples' preferences out of his arse? As far as I know LoL is particularly big in asian countries, the same countries where the wages are extremely low internationally speaking and people spend a lot of time in internet cafés because they simply can't afford computers and especially not fancy gaming peripherals. The fact that LoL is a free game is imperative to those people even playing the game, and them showing interest in it. Hell, i'd estimate the purchasing power among many of the western LoL players is weak aswell, as many are drawn to the game because it's free. Now, exactly how much effect does he think marketing will have when a big portion of the audience can't even afford the products marketed? LoL is known for directing people to tournament streams from within the game browser itself, so logically you'd expect the viewers of the stream to consist of a lot of the beforementioned people because they are probably a majority of the LoL player base. I remember Destiny being fond of the marketing term conversion rate, and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the aggregated CR for those 50k SC2 viewers wasn't that much less than for those "650k" LoL viewers. Strawman fallacy much? That's not the point he made. The point he's making is that Riot caters to casual gamers very well to a point that those gamers will play the same game over a long period of time, compared to SC2 which is very hardcore in comparision. Log into b.net and it tries to get you to ladder which is intimidating to casuals. Look at it from the perspective of a gold leaguer who plays for fun. Most people who ladder get burned out in a few months and when they want to relax and play customs, the system for custom games just sucks. And yes, League of Legends actually did get 650k viewers. And no, this is not just Riot doing their usual direct players to stream as you've pointed out. The actual venue of the championships was filled to the brim with people. | ||
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r4pture
United States397 Posts
Fact is, I haven't played any form of ladder in over a year now. I'm a competitive gamer, but a competitive FPS player, and relearning my entire approach to play isn't really worth it because I always go back to FPS. The custom games however are great and I play at least every other day, they're fun and lower pressure. THATS what needs focus. Not only the custom side, but user interaction. Chat rooms, groups, etc etc. Battle.net 2.0 is a dead, empty place, with empty space and a hard to use interface when it comes to finding people and finding custom games. I agree that focusing almost entirely on ladder/melee was, and is a mistake. Sadly, from the screens released for HoTS, it doesn't seem thats changed much (just made prettier), and is likely not a game I or a LOT of other people are going to pick up because of that. | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
On October 20 2012 05:07 Mouzone wrote: Why does Destiny make it out like LoL is just some random game just lying there, open for anyone to just pick up and win a million bucks? It takes some effort to win even in LoL. With that said, I want to bring up a few things to balance his rather biased stance in the questions. First off he assumes that big prize pools equal success and a healthy game. While that is possible, in this case it's known that Riot sponsor many and most importantly the biggest tournaments themselves so we really don't know. Does Blizzard sponsor any tournaments? A few as far as I know, but the rest of SC2 tournaments are built on outside parties' willingness to put in cash. Furthermore there aren't as many tournaments in LoL as there are in SC2, so I wouldn't be too quick about deeming LoL the unconditional victor because there is one or a few tournaments with very high prizes. Also he seems to be disregarding the fact that prizes in LoL are split on what, 5-6 players (starting line-up + eventual standins) and potentially the gaming organisation behind the players takes a cut aswell. The thing with LoL I think is that the prize pools don't really reflect the difficulty of the game so it's a semi-bubble that way, but I suppose it won't be a problem as long as long as money is being put in. Second: does Destiny have any information regarding the demographics of those "650k viewers" or is he pulling supposed knowledge regarding those peoples' preferences out of his arse? As far as I know LoL is particularly big in asian countries, the same countries where the wages are extremely low internationally speaking and people spend a lot of time in internet cafés because they simply can't afford computers and especially not fancy gaming peripherals. The fact that LoL is a free game is imperative to those people even playing the game, and them showing interest in it. Hell, i'd estimate the purchasing power among many of the western LoL players is weak aswell, as many are drawn to the game because it's free. Now, exactly how much effect does he think marketing will have when a big portion of the audience can't even afford the products marketed? LoL is known for directing people to tournament streams from within the game browser itself, so logically you'd expect the viewers of the stream to consist of a lot of the beforementioned people because they are probably a majority of the LoL player base. I remember Destiny being fond of the marketing term conversion rate, and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the aggregated CR for those 50k SC2 viewers wasn't that much less than for those "650k" LoL viewers. I measure success of any game by amount of people playing it. Viewership and tournaments are just a secondary stuff which completely depend on number of players. For example, if 10m people play the game there is a good chance that 50k will be interested in watching it, hence there is a reason to sponsor a tournament. Delibarately making a game difficult, and hoping that ordinary people will come to watch how some guys pulling off some stuff they could never do, is at the very least stupid. | ||
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Sega92
United States467 Posts
On October 20 2012 04:59 mememolly wrote: dude, every company in sc2 wants to make money, that will not happen if there is a small audience for sc2 and a big one for LoL, we need to forget this "everyone's in it for the luv of esports" bullshit all im saying is if the players are here for the money, the quote was talking about the players, if you're only playing to make money of course you're going to want to stop because there is no genuine love of the game. and with koreans being so much better than us anyone only playing for money is going to become real poor real quick because they don't have the passion to back up the time spent playing so they'll eventually spend less time playing and more time doing other things because they can't keep up with the practice, thus they'll lose more and make less. let's look at counter strike for example MOST top level players in cs actually have full time jobs while playing on the side because they love it and its because of that love the cs has managed to stay somewhat alive for so long whereas many sc2 players ONLY play sc2 which just isn't profitable unless you are a top player. right now there are too many players and not enough money in the scene to keep them all here so we need to see a shrinking of the scene so that the few genuinely skilled players remaining so that we can see not only top level games but people who can actually play full time. Right now the definition of sc2 pro seems to be any chump who gets into masters and make a little money doing playhem tourney's and such and that just isn't sustainable | ||
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BreakfastBurrito
United States893 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On October 20 2012 05:07 Mouzone wrote: Why does Destiny make it out like LoL is just some random game just lying there, open for anyone to just pick up and win a million bucks? It takes some effort to win even in LoL. With that said, I want to bring up a few things to balance his rather biased stance in the questions. First off he assumes that big prize pools equal success and a healthy game. While that is possible, in this case it's known that Riot sponsor many and most importantly the biggest tournaments themselves so we really don't know. Does Blizzard sponsor any tournaments? A few as far as I know, but the rest of SC2 tournaments are built on outside parties' willingness to put in cash. Furthermore there aren't as many tournaments in LoL as there are in SC2, so I wouldn't be too quick about deeming LoL the unconditional victor because there is one or a few tournaments with very high prizes. Also he seems to be disregarding the fact that prizes in LoL are split on what, 5-6 players (starting line-up + eventual standins) and potentially the gaming organisation behind the players takes a cut aswell. The thing with LoL I think is that the prize pools don't really reflect the difficulty of the game so it's a semi-bubble that way, but I suppose it won't be a problem as long as long as money is being put in. Second: does Destiny have any information regarding the demographics of those "650k viewers" or is he pulling supposed knowledge regarding those peoples' preferences out of his arse? As far as I know LoL is particularly big in asian countries, the same countries where the wages are extremely low internationally speaking and people spend a lot of time in internet cafés because they simply can't afford computers and especially not fancy gaming peripherals. The fact that LoL is a free game is imperative to those people even playing the game, and them showing interest in it. Hell, i'd estimate the purchasing power among many of the western LoL players is weak aswell, as many are drawn to the game because it's free. Now, exactly how much effect does he think marketing will have when a big portion of the audience can't even afford the products marketed? LoL is known for directing people to tournament streams from within the game browser itself, so logically you'd expect the viewers of the stream to consist of a lot of the beforementioned people because they are probably a majority of the LoL player base. I remember Destiny being fond of the marketing term conversion rate, and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the aggregated CR for those 50k SC2 viewers wasn't that much less than for those "650k" LoL viewers. I was about to argue your point but you've made it for me. I'd clarify however, that the simplicity and accessibility of LoL means a lot of people play it. I'd assume most people interested in watching League of Legends are more likely to be players for those two reasons. On October 20 2012 05:20 bokeevboke wrote: Delibarately making a game difficult, and hoping that ordinary people will come to watch how some guys pulling off some stuff they could never do, is at the very least stupid. You're gonna have to elaborate on that logic. | ||
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namori
Japan26 Posts
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