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On October 19 2012 05:53 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 05:49 MugenXBanksy wrote:On October 19 2012 05:40 mordk wrote:On October 19 2012 05:04 bri9and wrote:On October 19 2012 04:55 wcr.4fun wrote:On October 19 2012 04:47 bri9and wrote:On October 19 2012 04:34 Butterednuts wrote:On October 19 2012 04:25 bri9and wrote:
people want games like LoL where you can faceroll your way to the top of every game with a minor amount of understanding of hero mechanics. Something tells me that you have never played ANY moba-styled games. Not true.. I had to play LoL to find out where all of my buddies who failed at SC2 went.. I gave it a honest college try because there must be something that kept them coming back.. But in the end, the reality of it was that they can't handle the stress and learning curve of SC2 and decided to play a more user friendly game. Ironically, the worst SC2 players of my group became some of the best LoL players.. So, yes, I have played LoL but I can't for the life of me understand why someone would play it over SC2. I guess what it comes down to is this.. LoL is easier to master and this day and age that is what people want.. unless you've played dota or hon before S2 ruined it, stop acting like you know a damn thing about the 'moba' genre. fucking lol lmao. lol is to dota what sc2 is to bw. Dota and bw are the real skill games with actual exciting play. Lol is way to easy and too error-proof (gotta hit a thousand spells before you can kill someone). Sc2 game is incredibly boring and only shows a glimps of skill compared to broodwar (marine micro is about the only thing sc2 has going for it) Your bias towards SC2 is almost as transparent as your motivations for playing DOTA. SC2's skill ceiling is far and away higher than any level of MOBA competition and to deny that shows ignorance and a denial of the truth. Marine micro is the only thing SC2 has going for it? Really? That is an interesting position, but one I'm sure you will hold on to as your fire up your MOBA game and faceroll yourself to the top tier of players. Face it, the SC2 pros at the top would destroy your top DOTA players if they didn't get bored out of their mind while playing it. Flash agrees: http://i.qkme.me/3opksh.jpg If they could actually settle a team yeah.... What you fail to understand is that a skilled DotA team is far more than the sum of each player's individual skills, that is what mostly makes the higher echelon of skill ceiling, and even within individual skill there is a HUGE, GIGANTIC difference between "good" guys (akin to masters in SC2) and pro level players. You know nothing about Dota, just face it and stop talking about things you don't know. DotA and SC2 are very different games requiring very different skillsets, it makes no sense to compare them. SC2 is of course extremely difficult, everyone knows that, but the way you talk about DotA is evidence as to how ignorant you are about this game. Popularity is an entirely different thing. You are more likely to watch something you actually play, and having DotA-like games in general being more "fun" to play at a casual level means a lot more people will play, and hence, watch, there is nothing more to it. The reason SC2 is dwindling in popularity is not because of how difficult it is, but rather how bad of a social experience it is (mind you, I play most of my games completely alone, and personally don't care, but this issue is evident). Most gamers nowadays go to the internet for a social thing, this is also a big part of why D3's popularity falls. Battle.net 2.0 has failed to deliver the social experience most people want out of their online games, DotA-likes are social by nature, which makes them more popular at base-level. I fail to see the social aspect in game of lol of playing it for 3 months and got tired of the weird new hereos who were also like weird crappy knockoffs dota heroes and lame sense of balance . Dota2 has those cool chat boxes that are brood war-esque which is cool. I can respect dota for what it is and some of its mechanics. The things Dendi does gives me a better light of dota and a reason to no hate it like I do to lol. The fact that it is a team game already makes it social, despite having mostly trolls and ragers on low level games, and most people tag in with a friend from the start.
When I got my friends who went from playing sc2 and got tired of the frustration implored me to play lol that was dumb as fuck and they raged more then I did when playing. The fact that the game is a team game can make being mad easier though because you can blame your team for being fuckups. I got into the Dota2 beta and enjoyed the cleaner interface and graphics compared to the childish lol who people I have talked to say looks better then D2 which is just not true. Gave my friends didn't like D2 for some reason despite it being the better game actually in terms of mobas. And in D2 they have a voice chat function built in which imo makes communicating way easier. though obviously if you are playing as a team you use a third party program to have voicechat (fill in the blank program).
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One major point of yours is slightly misinformed. Blizz is reforming the WoL units after the HotS units.
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On October 19 2012 05:04 bri9and wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 04:55 wcr.4fun wrote:On October 19 2012 04:47 bri9and wrote:On October 19 2012 04:34 Butterednuts wrote:On October 19 2012 04:25 bri9and wrote:
people want games like LoL where you can faceroll your way to the top of every game with a minor amount of understanding of hero mechanics. Something tells me that you have never played ANY moba-styled games. Not true.. I had to play LoL to find out where all of my buddies who failed at SC2 went.. I gave it a honest college try because there must be something that kept them coming back.. But in the end, the reality of it was that they can't handle the stress and learning curve of SC2 and decided to play a more user friendly game. Ironically, the worst SC2 players of my group became some of the best LoL players.. So, yes, I have played LoL but I can't for the life of me understand why someone would play it over SC2. I guess what it comes down to is this.. LoL is easier to master and this day and age that is what people want.. unless you've played dota or hon before S2 ruined it, stop acting like you know a damn thing about the 'moba' genre. fucking lol lmao. lol is to dota what sc2 is to bw. Dota and bw are the real skill games with actual exciting play. Lol is way to easy and too error-proof (gotta hit a thousand spells before you can kill someone). Sc2 game is incredibly boring and only shows a glimps of skill compared to broodwar (marine micro is about the only thing sc2 has going for it) Your bias towards SC2 is almost as transparent as your motivations for playing DOTA. SC2's skill ceiling is far and away higher than any level of MOBA competition and to deny that shows ignorance and a denial of the truth. Marine micro is the only thing SC2 has going for it? Really? That is an interesting position, but one I'm sure you will hold on to as your fire up your MOBA game and faceroll yourself to the top tier of players. Face it, the SC2 pros at the top would destroy your top DOTA players if they didn't get bored out of their mind while playing it. Flash agrees: http://i.qkme.me/3opksh.jpg
Skill ceiling? How lovely of you to pull out that word. True, any game with multiple units has a higher skillceiling. It's purely statistical. You can easily check this when you give control to a micro bot; a micro bot can individually micro every unit while macroing everything in his base while doing drone micro to improve his harvest rate while .... The more objects you give it to interact with, the more decisions it has to make. Every decision can become optimal and a bot would know all the optimal decisions (disregarding strategy for now). It can do everything at the same time, you're just adding parameters and objects to control. But skill ceiling is not something you can use to measure the amount of skill it requires for a human being (mechanical or tactical). You'd have to be a fool to believe that the pro's of sc2 would be instant wonders at dota. You clearly have no clue of dota. The competition at the highest level of dota is insane, you don't just start owning the place. If I'm great at guitar, I don't instantly start owning on the piano. It's a different game, different instrument. If you had mentioned bw pro's instead of sc2 pro's I'd be more inclined to agree because the kespa players are just godly and even though there skill wouldn't transfer immediately either, because they are so talented and mechanical beasts they would become great at it. (but not necessarily the best).
Marine micro is about the only thing sc2 has going for it. Care to enligthen me on the other amazing aspects of sc2? Fungal? Forcefield? A-move with collussi? Emp? Mutalisk micro? Hellion moving shot? loool summing up all these things makes me quite sad that we'll never see reaver dropship control, mutalisk micro, vulture patrol, dragoon micro,...
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On October 18 2012 14:01 Filter wrote:
The Middle of 2012
Prize pools started to stagnate and the big sponsors weren't coming. Another game was starting to show promise as an esport, and their community was getting behind them. Day9 only had 8000 viewers when he streamed instead of the usual 20k. The builds players were using and struggling against were basically the same as they were 6 months ago.
You could watch a high level pro game of SC2 and know exactly how it was going to pan out after the players opened, with some rare exceptions (TvT excluded of course). 75% of the games played had no combat at all for the first 10 minutes of the game, and of those another large batch would end in a single fight instead of sustained action.
Something did indeed happen around the middle of 2012:
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/StarCraft_II_version_history
Balance Update 5.10.12 was released on May 10, 2012.
Protoss
■Observer build time decreased from 40 to 30 seconds
Zerg
■Overlord movement speed increased from 0.4687 to 0.586
■Queen anti-ground weapon attack range increased from 3 to 5
At the time there were heated arguments (which persist to this day) over whether the changes were necessary and whether they broke the balance of the game. IMO, while the changes didn't imbalance the game, they did have the net effect which the OP describes. Early aggression in any games featuring Zergs was essentially neutered. Every game thus devolved into a boring as hell match where nothing happens for the first 10 minutes. I don't fault any of the players for this, since they are simply trying their best to win and these kinds of games were the only reliable style left to them.
Essentially, SC2 has become perceived (rightfully or not...) as solved game: one in which all the best moves and correct choices are already known. It is this lack of strategic depth that has killed interest in the game. Especially when SC2 is supposed to be a strategy game. SC2 has an additional problem in that it has a very high barrier of entry for newcomers compared to something like LoL due to the mechanics and build knowledge required to even perform decently well at a professional level. This barrier prevents new blood from coming into the scene (with exceptions like Kespa) and possibly inventing new strategies that could shake up the scene and make things interesting again.
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to anyone who says "its only a beta stage"....
remember when we said the same thing about bnet 2.0?
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On October 19 2012 04:02 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
Moba's are missing depth to keep up long term interest/motivation. Additionally its much harder to watch/understand for non-players. It has zero chance to extend beyond the players community. Building up an e-sports game is a long term process requiring several generations of gamers, a complex game with a high skill ceiling.
Anybody who watched BW is likely to watch/be interested in watching SC2. There are a lot of 30+ people in SC2. To get broad interest we at least need to wait like 10 years.
Anyway, Blizzard should consider a F2Play model. This is probably more important than tweaking the game
your first sentence is incorrect. DotA is played to this day, along with HoN, and along with other mobas that're similar.
FPS games are as simple as can be for the eye to see, the only differences between games are the objectives, the guns, and the way that players handle the guns and situations. if you were to have any more depth to an existing game (and the understanding of it all was necessary to understand and appreciate it)... well, lets just say that a lot of gamers would not understand that they *need* to juggle several aspects of the game in order to stay competitive at all.
if several years isn't enough to be considered long-term though (when it comes to established mobas), i'm not sure how long you expect these renditions of starcraft to last for.
i've heard complete non-spectators of LoL say it's like watching their kid with a dwarf, killing other dwarfs (is that not true?).
deeper yet there are two teams with supposedly determined roles that have a clear goal of killing the other team's tower.
deeper once again, and we have over a hundred different playable characters with unique abilities.
&&better yet, your friends seem to meet up online every other night to play and seem to talk about it a lot in school and on skype. same thing for videos on youtube, it is not likely that a video with high view count will get you to randomly give it a try and add onto its tally? popularity goes a long, long way before it starts to die down on its own.
i'm not going to pretend that i know what this generation of young gamers is interested in, but i'm going to have to say LoL is a strong contender for the most popular in this day and age of young gaming. i consider popularity, ease of play, and community aspect all part of that depth..
so the same thing can be said of starcraft with what you've said about mobas...
or rather a question of, 'how can i make the community more accessible that non-members can find their way around and sift through to the information they need?' i certainly do not see a 11 y/o looking through teamliquid to find belial's thread of the drone flower arrangement of death, and how it could help him improve against his cheesy buddies.
sometimes, this starcraft community (not just TL) just takes the game too seriously and ends up shunning complete new-comers. even as a veteran of the game, i wouldn't even consider visiting the blizz-boards to see what's up with the sc2 posting there... because i feel like i know what to expect. many, MANY casuals don't even visit teamliquid because they find it hard to navigate or never tried doing so.. and this is just teamliquid, the hub of all starcraft esports.
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I am gonna add a little spice to this. Giving GOM exclusive rights for sc2 in korea killed the game there and that's why it never took off in the first palce in the country we needed it the most :o
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weren't there about 100000 people watching the wcs eu finals? I don't think it's that bad.
well, broodwar was also dying for about 10 years, so I guess, we'll have to get used to these kind of threads.
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On October 19 2012 04:47 bri9and wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 04:34 Butterednuts wrote:On October 19 2012 04:25 bri9and wrote:
people want games like LoL where you can faceroll your way to the top of every game with a minor amount of understanding of hero mechanics. Something tells me that you have never played ANY moba-styled games. Not true.. I had to play LoL to find out where all of my buddies who failed at SC2 went.. I gave it a honest college try because there must be something that kept them coming back.. But in the end, the reality of it was that they can't handle the stress and learning curve of SC2 and decided to play a more user friendly game. Ironically, the worst SC2 players of my group became some of the best LoL players.. So, yes, I have played LoL but I can't for the life of me understand why someone would play it over SC2. I guess what it comes down to is this.. LoL is easier to master and this day and age that is what people want..
If its easier to master, wouldnt you take advantage of the huge prize pool that they have? If its easier to master, you should easily have 2000 elo right?
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You love RTS or you don't. Builds are not all figured out because new timings and new pressures, new mind games are
always develop. The game is really hard and that is why i think a lot of people are quitting the game ; they realize they aren't
good at multitasking. I played LoL and it is teamwork and requires not much multitasking. I am not saying it's easy but it does
not require the same field of skills as sc2. My personnal opinion is that the game is evolving constantly but the game is so
meta oriented that new strategies and timings that actually are viable at top levels dont appears each week, but they actually
appears and evolve steadily. This game will get and is getting better after each tounrament or code s seasons.
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Brunei Darussalam566 Posts
On October 19 2012 06:50 matiK23 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 04:47 bri9and wrote:On October 19 2012 04:34 Butterednuts wrote:On October 19 2012 04:25 bri9and wrote:
people want games like LoL where you can faceroll your way to the top of every game with a minor amount of understanding of hero mechanics. Something tells me that you have never played ANY moba-styled games. Not true.. I had to play LoL to find out where all of my buddies who failed at SC2 went.. I gave it a honest college try because there must be something that kept them coming back.. But in the end, the reality of it was that they can't handle the stress and learning curve of SC2 and decided to play a more user friendly game. Ironically, the worst SC2 players of my group became some of the best LoL players.. So, yes, I have played LoL but I can't for the life of me understand why someone would play it over SC2. I guess what it comes down to is this.. LoL is easier to master and this day and age that is what people want.. If its easier to master, wouldnt you take advantage of the huge prize pool that they have? If its easier to master, you should easily have 2000 elo right?
Usually, the whole SC2 vs. LoL discussion is useless and merely tangential to the topic at hand. In this case, however, it can shed some light on why SC2 seems to be struggling of late, so I'll bite.
Discussing whether SC2 or LoL is easier to master, in the end, boils down to what exactly "mastering" a game means. If the word is employed in the sense of reaching the top of the ladder and/or reaching pro-status, then bri9and's argument makes no sense, since the game's (theoretical) higher or lower difficulty will (or should) affect every player in a similar way.
However, if the verb "to master" is employed in a different way, especifically in the sense of grasping and learning the game's core mechanics in order to play in an efficient manner, then I'll go out on a limb here and claim that SC2 is clearly the more challenging game. When you take in consideration other factors, such as the prevalence of cheese in lower leagues, the absence of official and easy to access guides on the game, as welll as SC2's solo nature, it's no wonder that new players are often put-off from playing the game.
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Starcraft II will never die imo but Blizzard needs to do something if they want their game to be successful like LOL or something.
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On October 18 2012 15:44 kochanfe wrote:
meh. seems like a giant over-dramatization to me.
Agreed. With Kespa on the scene I'm more excited about SC2 than ever.
Also you can't compare SC2 to LoL or DotA, they're completely different genres.
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On October 19 2012 07:45 Dionyseus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 15:44 kochanfe wrote:
meh. seems like a giant over-dramatization to me. Agreed. With Kespa on the scene I'm more excited about SC2 than ever. Also you can't compare SC2 to LoL or DotA, they're completely different genres.
Yeah. This thread is trying to make drama when none would arise.
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The problem I have with HotS is not that it doesn't interest me, it just feels more like an alpha test given that the "balance" changes are quite significant from week to week that its pointless to try to follow. I am personally quite excited to play it once it comes out but there's no reason for the community to pay much attention to the game when its so far away from a final product given that WoL is still pretty active. Adding new units to multiplayer is obviously going to attract attention but has major implications when minor adjustments (building/unit/research time) already have huge consequences. WoL was fairly balanced and Blizzard has no freaking clue how to add new units to HotS without greatly altering the gameplay already established.
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Yes, there seems to be quite a few pros switching, but I don't see this being as big of a problem as its being made out to be.
It's not like SC2 is losing all their players and fans. I know many people who play LoL now, but still spend a lot of time with SC2. LoL is getting bigger crowds, but its not stealing them away from Starcraft fans. I don't see why it has to be a problem that a game has more people interested in it. Obviously I would like SC2 to be #1, but its not the end if it isn't.
I feel like we CAN bring more people to Starcraft because of the interface and in game changes. Not sure how exactly, but I hope someone is able to find a way.
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There are a few points above that I agree with 100%
Namely that SC2 (and D3 for that matter) feel "disconnected".. There is no social aspect to the game. I know this all too well as I am a 1v1 player and have logged close to 20k games since beta. I don't mind it, I'm a lone wolf, but I'm sure more social people do. Even an embedded IRC channel would suffice.. heck, just put me in a room with 500+ other people so if I *want* to talk to someone, I can chime in, say my piece, and maybe pickup a challenge, KOTH, etc.. SC2 can very easily be a social game with a few minor tweaks (real chat, clan support, etc).
As far as SC2 being dead.. hell no.. it just aint so.
When the KESPA players announced that they were starting to play, it pumped new life blood into the entire system. Everyone got excited again and I was one of them. Seeing Flash play current top tier SC2 players was something that I've dreamed about for years and now it is a reality.. SC2 pros are fun to watch and seeing this influx of excellent top tier talent is exciting as hell! This website was a beacon for us SC1 players in a time we needed it the most and now that SC2 is out the community is growing.. With that growth comes some negative nancies, but trust me, SC2 isn't going anywhere.. regardless of how bad the beta looks right now.
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One big difference I think what makes LoL so popular is that its a teamgame and therefore you dont take losses so hard. Thats also why you have a lot of imbalanced talk and cheating accusations, when Sc2 from an objective standpoint is one of the most balanced games ever created.
In LoL and other mobas ( I think Dota2 would be close to LoL now if they just have released the fucking game lol) you can just blame your teammates and dont have to accept your own failure.
I think Sc2 needs more ways to be played without ladder pressure also. Its sounds silly, but after a really nice and long game I always felt frightened to lose points/rank w/e to some stupid shit in the next game. Most people that play games just wanna relax after a hard day of work/studying w/e.
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People saying MOBAs have no depth are about as ignorant as people who deny Evolution or the fact that the Earth revolves around the Sun. I'm not even exaggerating. If you truly believe that you are either entirely too dense to grasp the game's concepts or you've relegated yourself to mindless trolling.
The reality is DOTA and DOTA2 have more depth to them than SC2 could ever hope to achieve in it's current state. The metagame is CONSTANTLY shifting. Heroes come and go in the competitive scene and there's players and teams innovating the game still to this day. Just this morning I watched a 20 minute game between M5 and NaVi where M5 took down a side of rax at 10 minutes following a level 1 Rosh kill. Tell me that's a typical game and I'll know to ignore you... It's idiotic to think that a game with a virtually limitless array of possible Hero combinations would lack depth. And Heroes are just a single aspect of the game. 2 teams could play the exact same lineup completely differently. Each heroes items are subject to individual preference or the strategy a team employs. DOTA is a game which I believe will never truly stagnate. DOTA has enjoyed almost 10 years of dynamic gameplay; StarCraft 2 is struggling after 2. Don't get me wrong, I love both games but to say DOTA lacks for depth? You gotta try harder than that...
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On October 19 2012 10:47 SupLilSon wrote:
People saying MOBAs have no depth are about as ignorant as people who deny Evolution or the fact that the Earth revolves around the Sun. I'm not even exaggerating. If you truly believe that you are either entirely too dense to grasp the game's concepts or you've relegated yourself to mindless trolling.
The reality is DOTA and DOTA2 have more depth to them than SC2 could ever hope to achieve in it's current state. The metagame is CONSTANTLY shifting. Heroes come and go in the competitive scene and there's players and teams innovating the game still to this day. Just this morning I watched a 20 minute game between M5 and NaVi where M5 took down a side of rax at 10 minutes following a level 1 Rosh kill. Tell me that's a typical game and I'll know to ignore you... It's idiotic to think that a game with a virtually limitless array of possible Hero combinations would lack depth. And Heroes are just a single aspect of the game. 2 teams could play the exact same lineup completely differently. Each heroes items are subject to individual preference or the strategy a team employs. DOTA is a game which I believe will never truly stagnate. DOTA has enjoyed almost 10 years of dynamic gameplay; StarCraft 2 is struggling after 2. Don't get me wrong, I love both games but to say DOTA lacks for depth? You gotta try harder than that...
Just to be clear, there is a big difference between providing evidence like the earth revolves around the sun and moba has depth evidence. One has solid evidence (I.e Eyesight,calculations of stars and the planets), the other is just what you think because of what you see and perceived. (I.e since there are many heroes there are more depth when you mix their skills and such) You have loop holes in your theory which isn't back up by solid facts and that is not the same as solid evidence.
Its fine defending Moba, I enjoy Dota2 and LoL, but don't try and make your reasoning look as if its undeniable proof when there is a lot of space for debates.
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EPT
