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On October 23 2012 17:42 Azoryen wrote:
The problem with SC2 design is that it creates very frustrating and boring gameplay. You only get out what you put in. Does chess lead to boring gameplay? It depends on the player. Similar to SC2. Like in chess, most games are boring, only a handful are remembered. There are some issues in SC2 for sure, like ZvP late game. Those are tackled right now with HotS; but those issues are issues only for pros anyway.
There is a philosophical issue, too. What do you mean with "boring" gameplay? That it is predictable? If it would be hardly predictable at all, it would be random. We don't want that either.
I am not saying that the game couldn't be better, for example I would like to see more harassing in the early game and less macro-macro-macro-battle-GG. But if one reads you posting one could get the impression that SC2 is one of the worst RTS games.
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On October 23 2012 18:54 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 17:42 Azoryen wrote:
The problem with SC2 design is that it creates very frustrating and boring gameplay. You only get out what you put in. Does chess lead to boring gameplay? It depends on the player. Similar to SC2. Like in chess, most games are boring, only a handful are remembered. There are some issues in SC2 for sure, like ZvP late game. Those are tackled right now with HotS; but those issues are issues only for pros anyway. There is a philosophical issue, too. What do you mean with "boring" gameplay? That it is predictable? If it would be hardly predictable at all, it would be random. We don't want that either. I am not saying that the game couldn't be better, for example I would like to see more harassing in the early game and less macro-macro-macro-battle-GG. But if one reads you posting one could get the impression that SC2 is one of the worst RTS games.
You are dead wrong if you think only pros suffer from the design issues of SC2.
In fact, it's the other way round: the textbook counters to some design issues are only in the reach of the best players out there.
A casual is much more likely to loose all his his roaches to FF because he can't flank, induce energy waste, back and forwards, etc. He just a-moves and looses everything.
He is much more likely to loose all his broodlords to a vortex because he doesn't split.
He is much more likely to be unable to put enough pressure on a toss turteling on 2 bases, while gaining a macro advantage on 3 bases, because he lacks the apm to do so, so he will just be crushed by that deathball.
A few too many bad taste experiences like that and it's bye bye casual.
If 2 casuals play chess, it's fun because the game is balanced at all levels.
Good balance at casual level would look like this: If a casual has better harassing/multitasking, etc, he is able to gain an advantage by putting constant pressure.
If the game is designed in a way that race X can just turtle midgame and race Y MUST put constant pressure just to stand a chance... well that's simply doesn't work at low levels.
SC2 is much more imbalanced at casual level than pro level.
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On October 23 2012 19:20 Azoryen wrote:
SC2 is much more imbalanced at casual level than pro level.
Most casual gamers have so big macro issues that "imbalance" doesn't really factor into it. I guess ghat the perceived imbalance is great on the casual level, because you rather blame the race or the game than you own lack of skill.
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On October 23 2012 12:59 Filter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 12:14 Zaurus wrote:
RTS was never very popular. SC2 is capturing most of the market already. Be happy about it already.. That's one of the biggests myths I keep reading. RTS games have always been mainstays on pc. There was a period of time where a huge amount of them came out in a similar timeframe and all did really well. The RTS genre isn't unpopular, it's a lack of good RTS games that's the problem
Thats a truth. SC2 is the only good one in a long while and it doesn't really live up to its lineage. But then Browder et al were not involved in the successful blizard RTS games of old, in fact he was responsible for the competitions poorer examples of the genre. I doubt we'll ever see the game we really want from these guys, hopefully something new will arise, as broodwar did way back. In the meantime, its still a damn good game.
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On October 23 2012 12:59 Filter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 12:14 Zaurus wrote:
RTS was never very popular. SC2 is capturing most of the market already. Be happy about it already.. That's one of the biggests myths I keep reading. RTS games have always been mainstays on pc. There was a period of time where a huge amount of them came out in a similar timeframe and all did really well. The RTS genre isn't unpopular, it's a lack of good RTS games that's the problem
RTS has pretty much died out though. Hardly any releases for it and most have moved away from the classic RTS with actual resource/base management. SC2 isn't doing too bad but it will only shrink imo as many people simply prefer other types of games now. I really like RTS but I can't really play it casually as it requires huge attention all the time, lots of other games are just more relaxing and easier to play if you don't play often anymore
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On October 23 2012 20:33 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 19:20 Azoryen wrote:
SC2 is much more imbalanced at casual level than pro level. Most casual gamers have so big macro issues that "imbalance" doesn't really factor into it. I guess ghat the perceived imbalance is great on the casual level, because you rather blame the race or the game than you own lack of skill.
That's total BS.
The big difference between pros and casuals is multitasking, not macro alone.
That's why you create much more of an issue to casuals if you demand high multitasking/game knowledge or whatever other high level skill just to survive stage X of the game.
A zerg can inject flawlessly for 25 minutes just to have his broodlords archon toileted.
And he can saturate 3 bases pretty decently just to loose hopelessly to an immortal/sentry FF abuse because he can't deal with FF like a pro does. He will have equal army value and better income and be destroyed because a spell like FF is much easier to cast than to counter. It has more to do with micro/multitasking than macro really.
It's not about blaming the race, because later in the game, it's also pretty understandable that a P feels very frustrated against broodlord/infestor.
It's just that the game is designed in a way that a race is clearly inferior at a given time, even if both casuals are macroing pretty decently and at an equal level.
It's not frustarting to loose because you've been outplayed.
It's frustrating to loose because your race is known to be inferior at that stage in the game, unless you have gosu multitasking.
Stop repeating that standard crap that it's all the player's incompetence. It's NOT and posts like this have only contributed to increasing the frustration of casual players.
That's like saying: you have to go to a fist fight against me with your hands tied together from minute X to minute Y and if you can't run away from me fast enough during that period and I catch you and punch you do death... well, it's your fault for not being fast enough.
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I don't understand why people keep saying PvZ late game is frustration. TvZ late game is extremely frustrating for the pro's as well. (Hint: It has to do with BL/Infestor)
And its extremely more frustration for the casual player. That's why Zerg is the most played race except in Korea. Because the bulk of SC2 is casuals.
Azoryen:
It's not frustarting to loose because you've been outplayed.
It's frustrating to loose because your race is known to be inferior at that stage in the game, unless you have gosu multitasking.
Most people don't believe they've been outplayed. Hardly ever does someone say, "oh man, I suck" and actually believe it. They blame race, they blame the abuse of their opponent, hell, they blame lag, and they blame everyone but themselves and stay stuck in Gold League for it.
You can't balance the game around casuals because everyone has to potential to become better.
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On October 23 2012 21:48 PauseBreak wrote:I don't understand why people keep saying PvZ late game is frustration. TvZ late game is extremely frustrating for the pro's as well. (Hint: It has to do with BL/Infestor) And its extremely more frustration for the casual player. That's why Zerg is the most played race except in Korea. Because the bulk of SC2 is casuals. Show nested quote +
Azoryen:
It's not frustarting to loose because you've been outplayed.
It's frustrating to loose because your race is known to be inferior at that stage in the game, unless you have gosu multitasking.
Most people don't believe they've been outplayed. Hardly ever does someone say, "oh man, I suck" and actually believe it. They blame race, they blame the abuse of their opponent, hell, they blame lag, and they blame everyone but themselves and stay stuck in Gold League for it. You can't balance the game around casuals because everyone has to potential to become better.
You CAN balance the game for EVERYONE.
You just need to forget about the absurd design idea that asymmetrical balance is about making races stronger at early/mid/late game.
Make the 3 races different but balanced for the entire duration of a match-up, from start to finish, and the game will be better balanced to everyone, while more fun and less QQing.
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On October 23 2012 21:07 Azoryen wrote:
Stop repeating that standard crap that it's all the player's incompetence. It's NOT and posts like this have only contributed to increasing the frustration of casual players.
Unless both players have the same race, they will can be tempted to blamce the race balance instead of their own faults. I am close to get my achievement for 1000 zerg wins in 1v1, yet I am still in silver. Instead of complaining about the hardness of playing zerg in the early game, I rather try to build more drones without dying.
If you really try to minimise the QQ, you will end up with Farmville. Unless you are a top pro on a level where balance actually matters, the one who plays better, wins.
No exception.
That is the concept of winning (of course without hacking or cheating.) I recommend this Sirlin article http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html
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Starcraft 2 is not in a crisis. The beta is EXTREMELY early in development and testing and balancing. So early that its impossible to know the final product. They change things every week, and they change dramatic things! They haven't even implemented what they want to do with nydus networks.
Its at the bare basics and I have faith they'll make an amazing experience. People like Destiny, spouting about how its gonna die and how the UI is crap compared to LoL and Dota 2 etc etc... is stupid to believe that that is why people played in the first place. "OMG GUYS!!! There's a game out there, and have you seen the UI?!?!? Gameplay sucks, but the features are just incredible in the menus!!! Stats and figures!!! YES!!!" Naahhh, I'm sure people played because of the gameplay (and btw they are changing the UI). Destiny himself tried to be a pro player, but sucked too much and had to go to LoL cause he got domm'd every major tournie he entered. Not surprised to see him try to boycot the game he isn't playing anymore.
Now you say streams like Idra in the future will be at <1k viewers, and that this will destroy Starcraft in e-sports?!? IDC about Idra's stream, never watch it cause of the obnoxious dubstep and his attitude is woahful. Watching koreans or Stephano for example, is much more interesting. Hell atm IGN have a 24/7 stream running with always 2k+ viewers non-stop. Doing tournaments and random events, keeping the scene alive. I would rather watch IPL than MLG any day of the week. Also would rather watch the GSL finals more than all of that.
You end by complaining about balancing, "aw I pay zerg and I get hit with helions so I lose everytime".... here's a tip, build roaches and scout = you win. There was no need for your complaints about your lack of skill towards the end of the video.
This whole video has basically encouraged people to move to LoL instead of trying to promote how Starcraft 2 is still an amazing experience and an amazing game to watch with ever evolving meta-game. It requires the most skill and strategy to play and win, and will always be that. Just because you cant play and got bored of the pro scene, doesn't mean its in a "crisis"!!! IN FACT, the only news of this and how it got into everyones head atm, is because of people like yourself, or Sase's balancing bitch session, or Destiny's LoL pay-off rant. Why not make a video promoting how Starcraft 2 is still an amazing game, with a large community who plays and supports it still to this day. Promote excitement over what could be the next big unit change in HOTS. Promote it, don't say that its dying. All that accomplishes is turning people away from the game.
Hell I downloaded LoL after listening to your rant, THATS what you did. Congrats!
Im sorry, had to rant about this, in fact its the only real issue that's nearly ever made me rant like this, because people like me exist, people who LOVE Starcraft 2. We just all don't view it everyday and make bitch videos about it. Blizzard made an AMAZING game, my favourite ever game, and I have NO DOUBTS they will make HOTS an amazing and essential update to an already incredible game.
P.S. Its not a casual game on the ladder, exactly like BW, and the custom games(arcade) have plenty of the modes you complained it not having, like infinite money. Plenty of casual content mate, explore your game more, its truly amazing.
Starcraft 2 4ever! HOTS FTW!!!
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On October 23 2012 18:54 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 17:42 Azoryen wrote:
The problem with SC2 design is that it creates very frustrating and boring gameplay. You only get out what you put in. Does chess lead to boring gameplay? It depends on the player. Similar to SC2. Like in chess, most games are boring, only a handful are remembered.
Are you kidding me? calling chess boring, wtf happening with TL people these days?
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I AM THE GENERAL PUBLIC AND I AM EXCITED FOR HEART OF THE SWARM!!!!!
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On October 23 2012 22:04 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 21:48 PauseBreak wrote:I don't understand why people keep saying PvZ late game is frustration. TvZ late game is extremely frustrating for the pro's as well. (Hint: It has to do with BL/Infestor) And its extremely more frustration for the casual player. That's why Zerg is the most played race except in Korea. Because the bulk of SC2 is casuals.
Azoryen:
It's not frustarting to loose because you've been outplayed.
It's frustrating to loose because your race is known to be inferior at that stage in the game, unless you have gosu multitasking.
Most people don't believe they've been outplayed. Hardly ever does someone say, "oh man, I suck" and actually believe it. They blame race, they blame the abuse of their opponent, hell, they blame lag, and they blame everyone but themselves and stay stuck in Gold League for it. You can't balance the game around casuals because everyone has to potential to become better. You CAN balance the game for EVERYONE. You just need to forget about the absurd design idea that asymmetrical balance is about making races stronger at early/mid/late game. Make the 3 races different but balanced for the entire duration of a match-up, from start to finish, and the game will be better balanced to everyone, while more fun and less QQing.
No, you really can't. A Bronze player cannot use a unit the same way a Pro can. Its not going to happen. And FilterSc makes a great point that Blizzard should not cater to that Bronze because a casual can't utilize a unit that requires certain amount of micro and babysitting, like Tanks, BL's, or Colossus.
You cannot make the 3 races different and not have asymmetrical design. It would be playing the same races just with different names.
I think I'm going to stop, because I really think I'm getting trolled. Its so hard to tell now if people are being serious or not. And the more I think about your post the more I think its not.
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Broodwar is believed to be a great game for pros. I played some Broodwar versus a friend before SC2 came out. It was fun even though we sucked horribly. It is possible to have fun with a game which does not care much about balance for scrubs like me, all one needs is to accept the game as the actual game.
Starcraft 2 managed to get an RTS game into western esports. Well done, Blizzard.
I played and followed WC3 and remember the atmosphere when WC3 was played on an event: The crowd gasped at TPs because they wanted the game to be over to see Counter-Strike. When WC3 was replaced with SC2, the crowd hold the breath for the games.
SC2 is not yet all it could be, but it still is an extremely good and deep RTS game.
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I'm not excited about SC2 like I used to be. And I think many viewers are in my boat, it's part of the reason that viewership is declining.
But let's be honest, there's nothing we can do about it. It's all, entirely, 100% on Blizzard to wake up and start making an exciting esport. Where carrier micro and marine splitting become the norm, and fungal and forcefield are removed from the game. Where I can watch my 100th game that week and not see another 10 minute immortal sentry push that looks like any other, but marvel at players doing something so perfectly (and understanding how difficult it is) on a huge stage with tons of pressure.
If Blizzard insists on making a game instead of an esport, all the talk, all the posts, they mean nothing.
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On October 24 2012 02:24 PauseBreak wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 22:04 Azoryen wrote:On October 23 2012 21:48 PauseBreak wrote:I don't understand why people keep saying PvZ late game is frustration. TvZ late game is extremely frustrating for the pro's as well. (Hint: It has to do with BL/Infestor) And its extremely more frustration for the casual player. That's why Zerg is the most played race except in Korea. Because the bulk of SC2 is casuals.
Azoryen:
It's not frustarting to loose because you've been outplayed.
It's frustrating to loose because your race is known to be inferior at that stage in the game, unless you have gosu multitasking.
Most people don't believe they've been outplayed. Hardly ever does someone say, "oh man, I suck" and actually believe it. They blame race, they blame the abuse of their opponent, hell, they blame lag, and they blame everyone but themselves and stay stuck in Gold League for it. You can't balance the game around casuals because everyone has to potential to become better. You CAN balance the game for EVERYONE. You just need to forget about the absurd design idea that asymmetrical balance is about making races stronger at early/mid/late game. Make the 3 races different but balanced for the entire duration of a match-up, from start to finish, and the game will be better balanced to everyone, while more fun and less QQing. No, you really can't. A Bronze player cannot use a unit the same way a Pro can. Its not going to happen. And FilterSc makes a great point that Blizzard should not cater to that Bronze because a casual can't utilize a unit that requires certain amount of micro and babysitting, like Tanks, BL's, or Colossus. You cannot make the 3 races different and not have asymmetrical design. It would be playing the same races just with different names. I think I'm going to stop, because I really think I'm getting trolled. Its so hard to tell now if people are being serious or not. And the more I think about your post the more I think its not.
The game should have micro intensive units and it's even better if the most micro intensive units are also the most decisive ones. Then you have a clear separation in skill level based on how effectively people can use those units.
Look at BW: tanks, reavers and lurkers are all very different and all separate the best from the rest.
Micro intensive are great and even noobs love to use them! And they are not a balance problem if both sides use them poorly.
The problem with 'asymmetrical design' is making one race stronger in midgame and another race stronger lategame.
This promotes turtling, deathball and creates obvious and repetitive gameplay.
Also, the effect this has in lower leagues is that it's much harder for a casual to survive that stage when his race is weaker. Consider TvP for example, a pro T knows he MUST do damage when he's stronger (midgame MMM) to stand a change in the lategame. Even Blizzard has admitted this. And the pro knows that and he knows HOW to do it.
When you force a player to pressure midgame (or any stage) to stand a chance, you are basically requiring a lot of multitasking from that player. It's something pros respond to well, but casuals don't.
Why not have asymmetrical races but have them balanced at all stages?
Don't say it's impossible because I don't believe that for 1 second.
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"OMG GUYS!!! There's a game out there, and have you seen the UI?!?!? Gameplay sucks, but the features are just incredible in the menus!!! Stats and figures!!! YES!!!!
I lolled so hard when the OP mentioned DOTA 2 having the best UI in e-sports.
And, why is it a bad thing that MVP was in "yet another final"? So there is a pro player who is really good at the game, a true champ. Isn't that a good thing? Would you prefer a fully new roster every season? Maybe you just don't like that particular player, but that isn't his fault.
A lot of viewers (like myself) are very excited to see the BW pros in MLG and other tournaments, it will be great to see what they have to offer and how they will compete with players like MVP and MC, etc. What will they bring to the game? Can't wait to see.
LoL having a "radical shakeup" is just evidence that the game is as boring as watching paint dry. In SC2, a new map pool will change things dynamically enough (true, often in a frustrating way, we can all agree that hopefully Blizzard gets some better map making talent). LoL has one map for competitive play, and so they must make larger changes elsewhere in order to change anything at all.
That is not to say that SC2 is perfect, there are plenty of posts basing FF, Vortex, and fungal, and these things are def problems for the meta-game and for map making innovation, hopefully they will be addressed at some point. However, there is no crisis. So LoL has a large following? SC2 can benefit from a growth in E-Sports generally.
But you're right, those buttons in DOTA 2 sure are pretty.
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Ok, good opinions which led me to think about it, i will touch separately on some points you made on the vod.
- In-game streams and tourneys: cool, who do they appeal to? hardcore fans or to some casual trying the feature which is good, but i honestly prefer to keep the content out of the game as myself found out about SC via a youtube commentary
- Do the hardcore sustain the community, the game and the developers? NO
- Professionals will keep the game alive (as in out of a niche)? not likely, as you play BW lately, are you still hoping for an
update?
- LoL it's huge, why? it's free and it's an easier game to get into and to play without going into depression, do i know anything about the pro scene? nope, does it appeal to sponsors as much? don't think so (see the average LoL gamer and disposable income) and probably wouldn't need/want a high end keyboard...
- The average gamer? will read a review about SC think has cool story and campaign, play it, try out multiplayer, lose and never touch the game again and that's why i think IS and WILL be recognized as a skill game with sponsors knowing that
- Casual side: BW vs SC2? a "casual" will never go further than the campaign anyways and you can be a dick in bronze league as well if you just want to build BC
- Going to the previous point i think blizzard is doing well to not turn the game too hardcore because in that way will become niche sooner and they would have less resources to make it better overall
- Was BW better? depends, harder? probably because limitations in game design and tech, can you still prefer it? absolutely
- SC2 failed..where was Starcraft two years after release? after how long we've seen it reach the full potential? was Blizzard still selling it well? .....
- Are players switching game?, as all the rest of the world changes job.. shit happens, people changes..i wouldn't expect to see the same exact scene in 10 years anyways
All this to say that probably people feeling sad at the pace of changes probably wasn't around at BW early years and doesn't appreciate the intricacy and probabilities of something becoming that big and memorable, at least for Koreans at a "out of a basement" sort of way, and there we go into other discussions about a nation growth rate, economics, tech and pure coincidences.
And more likely than not victims of being of the "yearly release", "need to blow stuff up or get bored" generations
- Do you like it? play it, you don't? then please just...
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On December 27 2012 16:32 Gendo wrote:
Ok, good opinions which led me to think about it, i will touch separately on some points you made on the vod.
- In-game streams and tourneys: cool, who do they appeal to? hardcore fans or to some casual trying the feature which is good, but i honestly prefer to keep the content out of the game as myself found out about SC via a youtube commentary
- Do the hardcore sustain the community, the game and the developers? NO
- Professionals will keep the game alive (as in out of a niche)? not likely, as you play BW lately, are you still hoping for an
update?
- LoL it's huge, why? it's free and it's an easier game to get into and to play without going into depression, do i know anything about the pro scene? nope, does it appeal to sponsors as much? don't think so (see the average LoL gamer and disposable income) and probably wouldn't need/want a high end keyboard...
- The average gamer? will read a review about SC think has cool story and campaign, play it, try out multiplayer, lose and never touch the game again and that's why i think IS and WILL be recognized as a skill game with sponsors knowing that
- Casual side: BW vs SC2? a "casual" will never go further than the campaign anyways and you can be a dick in bronze league as well if you just want to build BC
- Going to the previous point i think blizzard is doing well to not turn the game too hardcore because in that way will become niche sooner and they would have less resources to make it better overall
- Was BW better? depends, harder? probably because limitations in game design and tech, can you still prefer it? absolutely
- SC2 failed..where was Starcraft two years after release? after how long we've seen it reach the full potential? was Blizzard still selling it well? .....
- Are players switching game?, as all the rest of the world changes job.. shit happens, people changes..i wouldn't expect to see the same exact scene in 10 years anyways
All this to say that probably people feeling sad at the pace of changes probably wasn't around at BW early years and doesn't appreciate the intricacy and probabilities of something becoming that big and memorable, at least for Koreans at a "out of a basement" sort of way, and there we go into other discussions about a nation growth rate, economics, tech and pure coincidences.
And more likely than not victims of being of the "yearly release", "need to blow stuff up or get bored" generations
- Do you like it? play it, you don't? then please just...
1) imo I would disagree with a lot of what you just said
2) I don't think you've added anything worth bumping the thread for so I won't go into it really..
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