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On October 22 2012 14:29 bokeevboke wrote:I think main problem is game-play itself rather than UI. You could witness it in most recent finals where Zerg was all about getting lategame compo and others not letting it happen. I don't think its horrible but its getting boring coz every game is the same.
The lategame PvZ matchup has little to do with the declining viewership of sc2. Lategame PvZ is one of the reason why most hardcore fans who still care about sc2 are currently not so happy, true, but it is not the reason why most casuals are gone. They are gone because the core feature of sc2 is extremly competitive and demanding while there is no other content that makes the everyday casual player happy.
sc2 social experience: not existent during the first year, pretty bad right now.
custom games and arcade: simply doesn't work.
of course it doesn't help that even the hardcore fans don't like watching your everday tournament anymore...
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the game is definitely in decline, and given what we've seen in HOTS so far, it's not coming back.
the most massive problem right now is that blizzard just can't innovate anymore. we've been sitting here with the promise that design flaws in the game would be fixed, and with the new expansion revealed it has become clear that blizzard just can't come up with anything worth getting excited about. to be honest the company as a whole appears to have lost direction. they were revered for taking their time to produce brilliantly crafted games, but now it just looks like they take forever to release something that is mediocre at best. look at the state of D3 when it was released... and after how many years of development?? they've supposedly been working on HOTS for 2 years. and frankly it looks like they devoted that entire time to the campaign, which isn't going to do anything for the long term.
they have no idea what to do with terran without making redundancies in the race.
they have no idea how to make protoss more interesting.
they have no idea how to strike a balance with zerg to keep it from being too weak or too powerful.
and then there's the overarching problem they have with not being able to make the game fun to watch or play. they've tried to respond to these complaints by making micro "easier" (shift-click oracle, wanting to make forcefielding easier), when really it's the repetitive macro mechanics that make the game dull and tedious. they've tried to balance the game so much that they've pigeonholed each race into a small number of strategies in any given matchup. it's awful.
and to make it worse it appears blizzard is afraid to touch even the easiest things to fix, like bnet. no one is going to play on a graveyard. sure they want to "preserve the quality of the user experience", but it's killed the spirit of the game. you feel alone. you sit alone at your computer executing repetitive macro mechanics to fulfill one of the small number of strategies you know you can do in the match.
and thus we see a mass exodus of players from the game. a majority of us likely don't even play the game anymore. we just watch streams. but now that's less exciting, because we are seeing streamers play less starcraft and more of other games. you used to be able to look on the featured streamer list and see 20 starcraft streams. now there's more LOL and BW streams than there are SC2. it's dead.
blizzard is resting on its laurels while the game stagnates, and they don't even come close to the amount of effort and urgency in producing new ideas that will revive this game.
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On October 22 2012 14:48 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 14:11 don_kyuhote wrote:On October 22 2012 13:54 Epoch wrote:
There is actually no "Starcraft Crisis". What has happened is the game has stopped growing. It grew and it grew and reached many people and it's still this huge powerful, yet niche community. But then it stopped growing. Now what did you expect? Did you expect it to continue to grow non stop until we were bigger than soccer? Or what?
It's fine that you are fanatical about this game, I am too. But not everyone else is. Or will be. Believe it or not, starcraft is not everyones cup of tea. We're not dying. We're still the number 2 esport.
You people are just going crazy. Yea sure, blizzard is to "blame" for some of this. They could have implemented stuff to cater to more casuals, but that would only do so much more anyway. Starcraft isn't a casual game. It's a hardcore game and there's no reason for anyone to play it unless they really like it and are wanting to challenge themselves. I'm fine with that. Why aren't any of you? Because some of us read this blog http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=287965Because some of us believe Starcraft should be a #1 esports and not anything less. Because some of us believe that sc2 has an obligation to live up to the standards that its predecessor set. so be big in one small country and practically unknown every where else? hasnt SC2 already surpassed BW at least in amount of people watching it?
You seem to forget technology.. Streaming and the internet 2.0 have made it so easy for Blizzard to surpass BW with SC2.
But they didn't really. If you had seen the CRAZE of BW in 2005 to 2009. Offline tournaments could full up a stadium.
SC2 gets many viewers, but with streaming. what happened in 2005 is different from what is happening now. SC2 should have been bigger, but KESPA didn't follow at first... that's blizzard's first error. Then there is Battle.net 2.0, where chatrooms (when they decided to implement them) are almost always empty or inactive. No LAN supports.. teamhouses do not have the same meaning anymore.. Boring gameplay where mechanics take a backseat to memorized build orders. I don't feel that the pros im watching in SC2 are that good, even the top tier. In BW however, I considered as almost inhuman the players' ability to make all of their strat works. I still pay for GSL but i do not even watch all the games.
By no means is Starcraft 2 bad, but it is not as good as BW, not even remotely. Blizzard's gotta understand this. Dumbing down the game so casuals can play it is not the right thing to do. Casuals will grind the fuck out of a game where they admire the pro players.
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On October 22 2012 16:47 Grummler wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 14:29 bokeevboke wrote:I think main problem is game-play itself rather than UI. You could witness it in most recent finals where Zerg was all about getting lategame compo and others not letting it happen. I don't think its horrible but its getting boring coz every game is the same. The lategame PvZ matchup has little to do with the declining viewership of sc2. Lategame PvZ is one of the reason why most hardcore fans who still care about sc2 are currently not so happy, true, but it is not the reason why most casuals are gone. They are gone because the core feature of sc2 is extremly competitive and demanding while there is no other content that makes the everyday casual player happy. sc2 social experience: not existent during the first year, pretty bad right now. custom games and arcade: simply doesn't work. of course it doesn't help that even the hardcore fans don't like watching your everday tournament anymore...
People stop playing because gameplay is very frustrating:
- Too many badly designed impairing spells like FF, FG, vortex
- Too much deathball
- Imbalanced timings where one race has an unfair advantage (this is true for all races!!)
That last one is the worst of all imo.
Just think about it: imbalance claims is an obsession in the community.
And why is that? Are SC2 players really such endless whinners?
No, I believe there are many valid reasons for all that frustration because all races feel very UP at some situations.
And this is all because the design team thinks 'asymmetrical balance' is about switching between being OP earlygame to being UP lategame when it's not.
Asymmetrical balance is giving different races different tools and weapons but having a fair fight from start to finish.
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Why are sc2 not as popular as LoL?
Easy to answer.
The main reason: Easy access to fun games - SC2 focuses way to much on hardcore laddering (for futher reading, check out destinys recent rant here)
Included in "access" it is important to realize that the casual fan will find it easier to enjoy watching if you play yourself. And guess what, LoL is free...!
But that aside.
Everytime a big tournament is held in LoL. There will be super super super easy access to watch it. When you log into LoL the entire background of your client will metaphorically speaking be a HUUUGE link to the stream. And (correct me if I'm wrong) only around 6-8 big events are held/year.
In sc2, there are 5-7 random tournaments a week, there is no way to keep track on which are "important" and most times when you (casually) browse through the TL streams to check out if there might be something worth watching you get some sort of message like: FOR ONLY 9.99$ you can watch "insert tournament name".
Thats all fine, if you knew what tournaments to watch, instead you might get some smaller tournament with players whom you dont know and dont care for. And most times, the fee you need to pay will only provide you with 1/2 or 1/3 of a tournament since it started long ago. Too the casual, that is not very appealing since you most likely doesnt have the entirety of a weekend to watch anyway.¨
Another thing that I wont get to far into is SC2 vs SC:BW, where I think that SC:BW as a game was a far more fun game to spectate. But we can discuss that to death and never agree. However some of the things that could change that can be found in gretorps recent very well written post about that here.
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On October 22 2012 16:39 Azoryen wrote:
Most people here are missing the point.
The issue with SC2 is gameplay.
Solve gameplay and all the rest becomes irrelevant.
this.
I find most threads going wrong direction, discussing unimportant stuff like UI, LAN and etc. The problem is gameplay itself. Remember when LoL had shitty UI and buggy game. Game used to crash and have lag issues, people would play anyway. Because gameplay was great.
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Pls change this Blizzard:
- Reaver for colossus
- Lurker for Swarm host
- Defiler for Infestor
- Sc1 Carrier-Micro-Mechanics back
- Speed upgrade for Hydras should need only Lair not Hive
- Remove 250mm Cannons of Thors
- Remove Reaper from Terran and move it to Protoss in changed look
- Spore Crawler need Evolution Chamber again
Good Job Blizzard for things they did and things they announced:
- New Hots Inteface
- Warhound removed
- Widow Mine
- Baneling
- Ultra-Charge
- Stalker and Blink
- Warp in Mechanic of Protoss and Warp Prism
- Hallucination of Sentry without Tech
- Multiplayer resume from replay
- Multiplayer replay viewing
- Unranked matchmaking
- Clan/group system
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On October 22 2012 18:02 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 16:39 Azoryen wrote:
Most people here are missing the point.
The issue with SC2 is gameplay.
Solve gameplay and all the rest becomes irrelevant. this.I find most threads going wrong direction, discussing unimportant stuff like UI, LAN and etc. The problem is gameplay itself. Remember when LoL had shitty UI and buggy game. Game used to crash and have lag issues, people would play anyway. Because gameplay was great.
I believe is the other way around. That most people believed before that the problem was the game play itself and destiny post actually started the discussion on the real issue for the community. I stop playing dota 2 and lol because most of my friends don't play games anymore. I enjoy dota 2 but is not as much fun when u dont have friends playing it. Same with sc2. Most of my friends played it at the begining and we did compete with are different lader ranks and play matches. Its more fun and relaxing to play 1vs1 against friends then on ladder. Sc2 can have the greatest game play of all time but if cant share the experience with anyone then whats the point??. My friends still watch sc2 sometimes with me if there is a big event even if they haven't played for more then 1 year but they would never watch a dota 2 match or lol(i do time to time).
Since sc2 is a 1vs1 game that cant give allot of social engament while playing its even more important to focus on the off game social aspect. I'm glad destiny started the topic opening my eyes and many others i believe on how important the offgame social aspect of the game is.
Edite:
Disclaimer: Everything expressed is my own opinion on the subject and is in no sense based on facts .
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On October 22 2012 14:29 bokeevboke wrote:I think main problem is game-play itself rather than UI. You could witness it in most recent finals where Zerg was all about getting lategame compo and others not letting it happen. I don't think its horrible but its getting boring coz every game is the same.
That's not actually SUCH a bad thing.
WC3 for instance:
Vs Orc it was about not allowing the BM to get stacked and criting your whole army
Vs UD it was about not allowing the UD to get Tier 3, Frost/Destro/Abom and Tri-Hero Coil-Nova-Impale
Vs Hu it was about not allowing them to get expos + mass towers + Tri-Hero.
Vs NE it was about not allowing them to snowball with Bear/Dryad by cutting their wood, harassing at tier 1 or killing the DH.
However, due to luck factors, creeping and the ability to win with any composition so long as you had the micro, the versatility of these match ups remained at a peak point even till this day.
More on the topic, I don't regret buying SC2, I just regret being part of such a retarded community. WC3 is at an alltime low as an e-sport and 90% of the community are trolls - but each and every single person loves the games and does his part for the enjoyment of others. Here we have constant whiners, naysayers, doomsayers and straight up bitches who ruin the experience for other people.
You people need to check yourselves before you start screaming that the world is ending.
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On October 22 2012 20:24 Anomi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 18:02 bokeevboke wrote:On October 22 2012 16:39 Azoryen wrote:
Most people here are missing the point.
The issue with SC2 is gameplay.
Solve gameplay and all the rest becomes irrelevant. this.I find most threads going wrong direction, discussing unimportant stuff like UI, LAN and etc. The problem is gameplay itself. Remember when LoL had shitty UI and buggy game. Game used to crash and have lag issues, people would play anyway. Because gameplay was great. I believe is the other way around. That most people believed before that the problem was the game play itself and destiny post actually started the discussion on the real issue for the community. I stop playing dota 2 and lol because most of my friends don't play games anymore. I enjoy dota 2 but is not as much fun when u dont have friends playing it. Same with sc2. Most of my friends played it at the begining and we did compete with are different lader ranks and play matches. Its more fun and relaxing to play 1vs1 against friends then on ladder. Sc2 can have the greatest game play of all time but if cant share the experience with anyone then whats the point??. My friends still watch sc2 sometimes with me if there is a big event even if they haven't played for more then 1 year but they would never watch a dota 2 match or lol(i do time to time). Since sc2 is a 1vs1 game that cant give allot of social engament while playing its even more important to focus on the off game social aspect. I'm glad destiny started the topic opening my eyes and many others i believe on how important the offgame social aspect of the game is.
You are wrong,
The problem IS gameplay alone and you explained why yourself in the end: it's a 1v1 game.
There are hundreds of millions of chess players playing online and they don't do it for the social aspect.
They do it because it's an amazing game with amazing gameplay.
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On October 22 2012 21:44 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 20:24 Anomi wrote:On October 22 2012 18:02 bokeevboke wrote:On October 22 2012 16:39 Azoryen wrote:
Most people here are missing the point.
The issue with SC2 is gameplay.
Solve gameplay and all the rest becomes irrelevant. this.I find most threads going wrong direction, discussing unimportant stuff like UI, LAN and etc. The problem is gameplay itself. Remember when LoL had shitty UI and buggy game. Game used to crash and have lag issues, people would play anyway. Because gameplay was great. I believe is the other way around. That most people believed before that the problem was the game play itself and destiny post actually started the discussion on the real issue for the community. I stop playing dota 2 and lol because most of my friends don't play games anymore. I enjoy dota 2 but is not as much fun when u dont have friends playing it. Same with sc2. Most of my friends played it at the begining and we did compete with are different lader ranks and play matches. Its more fun and relaxing to play 1vs1 against friends then on ladder. Sc2 can have the greatest game play of all time but if cant share the experience with anyone then whats the point??. My friends still watch sc2 sometimes with me if there is a big event even if they haven't played for more then 1 year but they would never watch a dota 2 match or lol(i do time to time). Since sc2 is a 1vs1 game that cant give allot of social engament while playing its even more important to focus on the off game social aspect. I'm glad destiny started the topic opening my eyes and many others i believe on how important the offgame social aspect of the game is. You are wrong, The problem IS gameplay alone and you explained why yourself in the end: it's a 1v1 game. There are hundreds of millions of chess players playing online and they don't do it for the social aspect. They do it because it's an amazing game with amazing gameplay.
Can you explain on how a opinion can be wrong. I can understand if you don't agree with my opinion but saying saying its wrong only shows lack of maturity on your side.
Your opinion is just as theory base with out any facts at all like my opinion.
You don't speak for the masses you speak for one person only and that's yourself. If u read what i wrote again u see i use the word believe. I am not saying your wrong and i am right i am just stating a different opinion.
Since u cant read between the lines i add a note on that what i wright is my own opinion and not facts. IF u still believe your opinion is more right then others just based on that its your opinion. Then i believe there is no point in discussing the subject with you at all.
Disclaimer: Everything expressed is my own opinion on the subject and is in no sense based on facts .
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On October 22 2012 21:44 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 20:24 Anomi wrote:On October 22 2012 18:02 bokeevboke wrote:On October 22 2012 16:39 Azoryen wrote:
Most people here are missing the point.
The issue with SC2 is gameplay.
Solve gameplay and all the rest becomes irrelevant. this.I find most threads going wrong direction, discussing unimportant stuff like UI, LAN and etc. The problem is gameplay itself. Remember when LoL had shitty UI and buggy game. Game used to crash and have lag issues, people would play anyway. Because gameplay was great. I believe is the other way around. That most people believed before that the problem was the game play itself and destiny post actually started the discussion on the real issue for the community. I stop playing dota 2 and lol because most of my friends don't play games anymore. I enjoy dota 2 but is not as much fun when u dont have friends playing it. Same with sc2. Most of my friends played it at the begining and we did compete with are different lader ranks and play matches. Its more fun and relaxing to play 1vs1 against friends then on ladder. Sc2 can have the greatest game play of all time but if cant share the experience with anyone then whats the point??. My friends still watch sc2 sometimes with me if there is a big event even if they haven't played for more then 1 year but they would never watch a dota 2 match or lol(i do time to time). Since sc2 is a 1vs1 game that cant give allot of social engament while playing its even more important to focus on the off game social aspect. I'm glad destiny started the topic opening my eyes and many others i believe on how important the offgame social aspect of the game is. You are wrong, The problem IS gameplay alone and you explained why yourself in the end: it's a 1v1 game. There are hundreds of millions of chess players playing online and they don't do it for the social aspect. They do it because it's an amazing game with amazing gameplay.
3 things:
1) Gameplay is indeed very important and blizzard should have done much more to prevent ladder anxiety.
2) social also aspect very important, and blizzard completely failed/ignored this asspect with bnet 2.0
3) e-sports dedicated game is the least important actual. blizzard did okay'ish here, though obv. they failed in a lot of ways (collosus), and they could have improved sc2 from an esports active without casual gameplay or social aspect suffering.
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On October 22 2012 23:02 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 21:44 Azoryen wrote:On October 22 2012 20:24 Anomi wrote:On October 22 2012 18:02 bokeevboke wrote:On October 22 2012 16:39 Azoryen wrote:
Most people here are missing the point.
The issue with SC2 is gameplay.
Solve gameplay and all the rest becomes irrelevant. this.I find most threads going wrong direction, discussing unimportant stuff like UI, LAN and etc. The problem is gameplay itself. Remember when LoL had shitty UI and buggy game. Game used to crash and have lag issues, people would play anyway. Because gameplay was great. I believe is the other way around. That most people believed before that the problem was the game play itself and destiny post actually started the discussion on the real issue for the community. I stop playing dota 2 and lol because most of my friends don't play games anymore. I enjoy dota 2 but is not as much fun when u dont have friends playing it. Same with sc2. Most of my friends played it at the begining and we did compete with are different lader ranks and play matches. Its more fun and relaxing to play 1vs1 against friends then on ladder. Sc2 can have the greatest game play of all time but if cant share the experience with anyone then whats the point??. My friends still watch sc2 sometimes with me if there is a big event even if they haven't played for more then 1 year but they would never watch a dota 2 match or lol(i do time to time). Since sc2 is a 1vs1 game that cant give allot of social engament while playing its even more important to focus on the off game social aspect. I'm glad destiny started the topic opening my eyes and many others i believe on how important the offgame social aspect of the game is. You are wrong, The problem IS gameplay alone and you explained why yourself in the end: it's a 1v1 game. There are hundreds of millions of chess players playing online and they don't do it for the social aspect. They do it because it's an amazing game with amazing gameplay. 3 things: 1) Gameplay is indeed very important and blizzard should have done much more to prevent ladder anxiety. 2) social also aspect very important, and blizzard completely failed/ignored this asspect with bnet 2.0 3) e-sports dedicated game is the least important actual. blizzard did okay'ish here, though obv. they failed in a lot of ways (collosus), and they could have improved sc2 from an esports active without casual gameplay or social aspect suffering.
Might be more things then 3 but the one u stated so far i agree to some extent 
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On October 22 2012 22:55 Anomi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 21:44 Azoryen wrote:On October 22 2012 20:24 Anomi wrote:On October 22 2012 18:02 bokeevboke wrote:On October 22 2012 16:39 Azoryen wrote:
Most people here are missing the point.
The issue with SC2 is gameplay.
Solve gameplay and all the rest becomes irrelevant. this.I find most threads going wrong direction, discussing unimportant stuff like UI, LAN and etc. The problem is gameplay itself. Remember when LoL had shitty UI and buggy game. Game used to crash and have lag issues, people would play anyway. Because gameplay was great. I believe is the other way around. That most people believed before that the problem was the game play itself and destiny post actually started the discussion on the real issue for the community. I stop playing dota 2 and lol because most of my friends don't play games anymore. I enjoy dota 2 but is not as much fun when u dont have friends playing it. Same with sc2. Most of my friends played it at the begining and we did compete with are different lader ranks and play matches. Its more fun and relaxing to play 1vs1 against friends then on ladder. Sc2 can have the greatest game play of all time but if cant share the experience with anyone then whats the point??. My friends still watch sc2 sometimes with me if there is a big event even if they haven't played for more then 1 year but they would never watch a dota 2 match or lol(i do time to time). Since sc2 is a 1vs1 game that cant give allot of social engament while playing its even more important to focus on the off game social aspect. I'm glad destiny started the topic opening my eyes and many others i believe on how important the offgame social aspect of the game is. You are wrong, The problem IS gameplay alone and you explained why yourself in the end: it's a 1v1 game. There are hundreds of millions of chess players playing online and they don't do it for the social aspect. They do it because it's an amazing game with amazing gameplay. Can you explain on how a opinion can be wrong. I can understand if you don't agree with my opinion but saying saying its wrong only shows lack of maturity on your side. Your opinion is just as theory base with out any facts at all like my opinion. You don't speak for the masses you speak for one person only and that's yourself. If u read what i wrote again u see i use the word believe. I am not saying your wrong and i am right i am just stating a different opinion. Since u cant read between the lines i add a note on that what i wright is my own opinion and not facts. IF u still believe your opinion is more right then others just based on that its your opinion. Then i believe there is no point in discussing the subject with you at all. Disclaimer: Everything expressed is my own opinion on the subject and is in no sense based on facts .
When a game has amazing gameplay people play it. Period.
No need for social aspects or friends, especially if it's a 1s1 game.
Why should you worry so much that I provide hard data about something so obvious?
Just look at any good 1v1 online game in the world. Many have succeeded with very little social features at all. I gave you the chess example.
The problem with SC2 is that it's a very frustarting game, dominated by frustrating spells and situations where you feel completely hopeless (UP). Every race is hopeless at least in some stages of some match-ups. And that's no fun at all.
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On October 22 2012 23:12 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 22:55 Anomi wrote:On October 22 2012 21:44 Azoryen wrote:On October 22 2012 20:24 Anomi wrote:On October 22 2012 18:02 bokeevboke wrote:On October 22 2012 16:39 Azoryen wrote:
Most people here are missing the point.
The issue with SC2 is gameplay.
Solve gameplay and all the rest becomes irrelevant. this.I find most threads going wrong direction, discussing unimportant stuff like UI, LAN and etc. The problem is gameplay itself. Remember when LoL had shitty UI and buggy game. Game used to crash and have lag issues, people would play anyway. Because gameplay was great. I believe is the other way around. That most people believed before that the problem was the game play itself and destiny post actually started the discussion on the real issue for the community. I stop playing dota 2 and lol because most of my friends don't play games anymore. I enjoy dota 2 but is not as much fun when u dont have friends playing it. Same with sc2. Most of my friends played it at the begining and we did compete with are different lader ranks and play matches. Its more fun and relaxing to play 1vs1 against friends then on ladder. Sc2 can have the greatest game play of all time but if cant share the experience with anyone then whats the point??. My friends still watch sc2 sometimes with me if there is a big event even if they haven't played for more then 1 year but they would never watch a dota 2 match or lol(i do time to time). Since sc2 is a 1vs1 game that cant give allot of social engament while playing its even more important to focus on the off game social aspect. I'm glad destiny started the topic opening my eyes and many others i believe on how important the offgame social aspect of the game is. You are wrong, The problem IS gameplay alone and you explained why yourself in the end: it's a 1v1 game. There are hundreds of millions of chess players playing online and they don't do it for the social aspect. They do it because it's an amazing game with amazing gameplay. Can you explain on how a opinion can be wrong. I can understand if you don't agree with my opinion but saying saying its wrong only shows lack of maturity on your side. Your opinion is just as theory base with out any facts at all like my opinion. You don't speak for the masses you speak for one person only and that's yourself. If u read what i wrote again u see i use the word believe. I am not saying your wrong and i am right i am just stating a different opinion. Since u cant read between the lines i add a note on that what i wright is my own opinion and not facts. IF u still believe your opinion is more right then others just based on that its your opinion. Then i believe there is no point in discussing the subject with you at all. Disclaimer: Everything expressed is my own opinion on the subject and is in no sense based on facts . When a game has amazing gameplay people play it. Period. No need for social aspects or friends, especially if it's a 1s1 game. Why should you worry so much that I provide hard data about something so obvious? Just look at any good 1v1 online game in the world. Many have succeeded with very little social features at all. I gave you the chess example. The problem with SC2 is that it's a very frustarting game, dominated by frustrating spells and situations where you feel completely hopeless (UP). Every race is hopeless at least in some stages of some match-ups. And that's no fun at all.
Last time i look i was a human being i so i am fairly certain that i am included in the people category. I am also fairly certain that i don't only play the game for its amazing game play. Maybe i am wrong ,maybe u know better on what my own opinion is. Maybe i am not a person. Maybe you have a friend named people .
Your line of argumentation is for me frustrating. picking specific part of the post and interpreting in your own way so your still believe we are talking about wrong and right. Here it hows i would look like i would argument like u are now:
When a game has amazing social aspects or friends playing people play it. Period.
No need for game play , especially if it's a 1s1 game.
Why should you worry so much that I provide hard data about something so obvious?
Just look at any good online game in the world. Many have succeeded with very little game play features at all.
This not what i think but i hope u see how this way of argumentation is another word of bulshitt you might be right u might be wrong but believing there is only one way to see things is just being short minded.
Disclaimer. This only my own opinion on the subject and does not reflect anything more then that
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On October 22 2012 23:30 Anomi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 23:12 Azoryen wrote:On October 22 2012 22:55 Anomi wrote:On October 22 2012 21:44 Azoryen wrote:On October 22 2012 20:24 Anomi wrote:On October 22 2012 18:02 bokeevboke wrote:On October 22 2012 16:39 Azoryen wrote:
Most people here are missing the point.
The issue with SC2 is gameplay.
Solve gameplay and all the rest becomes irrelevant. this.I find most threads going wrong direction, discussing unimportant stuff like UI, LAN and etc. The problem is gameplay itself. Remember when LoL had shitty UI and buggy game. Game used to crash and have lag issues, people would play anyway. Because gameplay was great. I believe is the other way around. That most people believed before that the problem was the game play itself and destiny post actually started the discussion on the real issue for the community. I stop playing dota 2 and lol because most of my friends don't play games anymore. I enjoy dota 2 but is not as much fun when u dont have friends playing it. Same with sc2. Most of my friends played it at the begining and we did compete with are different lader ranks and play matches. Its more fun and relaxing to play 1vs1 against friends then on ladder. Sc2 can have the greatest game play of all time but if cant share the experience with anyone then whats the point??. My friends still watch sc2 sometimes with me if there is a big event even if they haven't played for more then 1 year but they would never watch a dota 2 match or lol(i do time to time). Since sc2 is a 1vs1 game that cant give allot of social engament while playing its even more important to focus on the off game social aspect. I'm glad destiny started the topic opening my eyes and many others i believe on how important the offgame social aspect of the game is. You are wrong, The problem IS gameplay alone and you explained why yourself in the end: it's a 1v1 game. There are hundreds of millions of chess players playing online and they don't do it for the social aspect. They do it because it's an amazing game with amazing gameplay. Can you explain on how a opinion can be wrong. I can understand if you don't agree with my opinion but saying saying its wrong only shows lack of maturity on your side. Your opinion is just as theory base with out any facts at all like my opinion. You don't speak for the masses you speak for one person only and that's yourself. If u read what i wrote again u see i use the word believe. I am not saying your wrong and i am right i am just stating a different opinion. Since u cant read between the lines i add a note on that what i wright is my own opinion and not facts. IF u still believe your opinion is more right then others just based on that its your opinion. Then i believe there is no point in discussing the subject with you at all. Disclaimer: Everything expressed is my own opinion on the subject and is in no sense based on facts . When a game has amazing gameplay people play it. Period. No need for social aspects or friends, especially if it's a 1s1 game. Why should you worry so much that I provide hard data about something so obvious? Just look at any good 1v1 online game in the world. Many have succeeded with very little social features at all. I gave you the chess example. The problem with SC2 is that it's a very frustarting game, dominated by frustrating spells and situations where you feel completely hopeless (UP). Every race is hopeless at least in some stages of some match-ups. And that's no fun at all. Last time i look i was a human being i so i am fairly certain that i am included in the people category. I am also fairly certain that i don't only play the game for its amazing game play. Maybe i am wrong ,maybe u know better on what my own opinion is. Maybe i am not a person. Maybe you have a friend named people . Your line of argumentation is for me frustrating. picking specific part of the post and interpreting in your own way so your still believe we are talking about wrong and right. Here it hows i would look like i would argument like u are now: When a game has amazing social aspects or friends playing people play it. Period.
No need for game play , especially if it's a 1s1 game.
Why should you worry so much that I provide hard data about something so obvious?
Just look at any good online game in the world. Many have succeeded with very little game play features at all. This not what i think but i hope u see how this way of argumentation is another word of bulshitt you might be right u might be wrong but believing there is only one way to see things is just being short minded. Disclaimer. This only my own opinion on the subject and does not reflect anything more then that
I have 2 questions for you:
1) What's your favorite hobbie? (including sports, video games, arts, anything)
2) Would you stop doing it if your friends stopped doing it?
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Do we have a crisis or just a consolidation?
We have so many tournaments where only some of them are special. In my opinion, most tournaments are horribly supported. I want to find the stream and get a link with the current bracked, a readable schedule and links to all VODs without searching my ass off. I want the casters to talk about the story line involved and to not
- overhype a game (do we ever don't see an "amazing" game? How come that every game is "so important"?)
- call GG early. This must not be done. This hurts esports because it lessens the entertainment for many viewers. If a viewer sees that it is over, he doesn't need to be told. Average Joe might think consider the final battle the climax of the game but gets interested because a caster already called the game over. Casters do not just comment a competetion, they create an entertainment product.
We need to create a welcoming athmosphere, we don't need too much jargon. If a new guy watches a cast, he will be left confused.
Tournaments should use more player cards (a picture of a player and some words about his strenghts.) Some real interview questions, not only the hype style of Clutch which gets boring very quickly.
The viewers need to be more involved, tournaments should show their cheerfuls, interview them about their opinion. Let a newbie see "heys, those nerds are guys like me."
We as a community need to voice our support for the game. If a new guy reads this forum, he gets the impression that SC2 is a terrible game, made by dumbasses who are neither able to balance the game, nor to have any understanding about how the game should be played anyway.
We need any caster in the community, we do need Husky, HD and TotalBiscuit because they are good to get new nerds into the game. We need to stop to whine about Moletrap.
Yes, there is real player competition, but most of us don't play the game because of the competition, rather to have an experience together with a friend when playing a 2v2 or a custom game. The game is rather a medium through which great stories are told and funny content is produced (like Funday Monday, Trial of the Xel'Naga, some of TB's events and so on.)
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On October 22 2012 23:52 [F_]aths wrote:
We as a community need to voice our support for the game. If a new guy reads this forum, he gets the impression that SC2 is a terrible game, made by dumbasses who are neither able to balance the game, nor to have any understanding about how the game should be played anyway.
Sorry, but what we all need to voice is how displeased we are with the game design they created.
Then maybe someone will get rid of this crapy design team and put someone on the job who actually knows what they're doing.
If I challenged you for a 10 minute fight where you fight blindfolded for the first 5 minutes and I fight with my hands tied together for the next 5 minutes would you accept it?
Then why are we all playing a game where they openly admit that one race is weaker midgame and the other is weaker late game and call this 'asymmetrical design'?
Asymmetrical design is not this, is giving races different weapons and different feels, while keeping the game fair to both sides at any moment.
I don't get, for example, how it's possible that David Kim publicly admits that, in PvT, T is stronger midgame and P is stronger lategame and no one gets fired the very next day.
It's completely obvious to anyone but them that this creates frustrating gameplay, because you feel it's unfair to loose at a stage in the game when your race is known to be weaker. And this happens to all races.
It also leads to obvious turtling play, because people will run away from fights until they feel they have the upper hand.
Add to this all the impairing spells like FF, FG or vortex and you have the most stupidly frustrating game ever.
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One point that isn't nearly stressed enough in all of these recent discussion about SC2 decline of popularity is the complete lack of a direct competitor for Blizzard in SC2. Just have a look a the situation with MOBA games: Right now we have at least LoL, DOTA 2, HoN and the original DOTA competing for the same player base. There are thus at least three (!) major game developing companies that are competing for the same customers.
What this means (amongs others) is that these companies must treat the customers right if they want to be successful. For example, they cannot simply announce features for the release and then postpone them to the next addon (which costs $$$ of course). If Riot doesn't treat their players right, then they're just gonna switch to DOTA 2 or whatnot. This gives a huge advantage to the player base and leads to a constant and steady development of these games.
On the other hand, SC2 just doesn't have a noteworthy competitor in the field of classical RTS games. The closest game that can be regarded in this context is ironically its predecessor. And this situation is probably not gonna change within the next years as there is no new upcoming star to be seen on the RTS horizon.
Unfortunately, Blizzard does what a lot of other companies from various economic sectors with a similar monopoly have been doing ever since: the abuse their market position. Given all of the experiences that we have gained since the dawn of SC2, I think it's pretty safe to say that Blizzard tries to get away with investing a very limited effort concerning game developing and community support. They seem to be allocting nowhere near enough resources to tease out the full potential of this game. And from a pure economic perspective, this is a reasonable approach since they know we the players are probably going to buy the game anyway.
I think in order to truly improve our situation, there are three paths leading to the light:
(1) Blizzard somehow starts listening to the community and allocates more resources into game development
(2) A serious competitors steps into the field and thus forces Blizzard to do (1)
(3) Blizzard opens the SC2 platform to the community by allowing custom servers (or LAN if you want to call it this way) thus leveraging the community's almost endless creative energy.
Unfortunately, I don't see of these threee points put into practice in the near future.
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LoL is large because it is so easy. If you make it harder and more competitive you will run into the same issue that SC2 is having. A lot of people are scared of competitive gaming and hide behind other people with skill, in Team Games. Whatever. But, Ladder anxiety is a real thing. Competitive nature is inherent to a small group of people.
Prediction, if LoL gets harder and more competitive, a lot of the younger kids (which is the main demographic for LoL) are just going to go and play another game that is win-win. (WoW, and other MMO's)
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EPT
