|
On October 23 2012 00:40 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 23:52 [F_]aths wrote:
We as a community need to voice our support for the game. If a new guy reads this forum, he gets the impression that SC2 is a terrible game, made by dumbasses who are neither able to balance the game, nor to have any understanding about how the game should be played anyway.
Sorry, but what we all need to voice is how displeased we are with the game design they created. Then maybe someone will get rid of this crapy design team and put someone on the job who actually knows what they're doing. If I challenged you for a 10 minute fight where you fight blindfolded for the first 5 minutes and I fight with my hands tied together for the next 5 minutes would you accept it? Then why are we all playing a game where they openly admit that one race is weaker midgame and the other is weaker late game and call this 'asymmetrical design'? Asymmetrical design is not this, is giving races different weapons and different feels, while keeping the game fair to both sides at any moment.I don't get, for example, how it's possible that David Kim publicly admits that, in PvT, T is stronger midgame and P is stronger lategame and no one gets fired the very next day. It's completely obvious to anyone but them that this creates frustrating gameplay, because you feel it's unfair to loose at a stage in the game when your race is known to be weaker. And this happens to all races. It also leads to obvious turtling play, because people will run away from fights until they feel they have the upper hand. Add to this all the impairing spells like FF, FG or vortex and you have the most stupidly frustrating game ever.
I have not thought of this as a huge issue but it kind of is. That assymetric balance is causing all these timings.
Good post, but SC2's problem is not only this. The deathball movement mechanics is another one.
|
I started spectating SC and SC2 during beta. King of the Beta was the first tournament I watched.
The first SC2 TSL was amazing and pretty much every big tournament up until recently has been "tournament weekends" where I stock up on snacks and live very unhealthy for a couple of days -- but enjoying it immensely.
But now?
Pretty much unfollowed every single Starcraft player on Twitter because it's all "support this shit, buy this shit, etc". Only Morrow, SaSe and Naniwa of all the people I follow still do commentary and community interaction. Day9 for instance is just circlejerking with youtube celebrities which I have absolute no interest in. and not just day9 -- it feels like many others are moving away from SC2, or are just looking to monetize my interest in e-sports.
I no longer look forward to tournaments because the game feels stale. HotS is being criticized by pros so I as an amateur player/spectator don't feel like I have much to look forward to.
Only the GSL still feels relevant, but not so fun with the influx of new players I don't know. I doubt I'll renew my subscription.
OSL feels relevant in terms of player skill, but is IMO unwatchable because of the casters and the disinterest OSL has for foreign viewers.
So that's my point of view.
I still visit Team Liquid and I often check up on the SC reddit page. It's often disappointing because I no longer see threads like "OMG NESTEA DOES SOMETHING AMAZING WOW MUST-SEE GAME" instead it's all whine and bullshit, like my post now.
What I find the most ridiculous are people calling for the community to change attitude. won't happen. blizzard must make SC2 a better game and tournaments must cut down on bullshit filler stuff. 2 dreamhacks, 4 mlgs, quarterly GSL, blizzard WC tourney <- that's all I really need.
|
On October 23 2012 11:44 phanto wrote:
I started spectating SC and SC2 during beta. King of the Beta was the first tournament I watched.
The first SC2 TSL was amazing and pretty much every big tournament up until recently has been "tournament weekends" where I stock up on snacks and live very unhealthy for a couple of days -- but enjoying it immensely.
But now?
Pretty much unfollowed every single Starcraft player on Twitter because it's all "support this shit, buy this shit, etc". Only Morrow, SaSe and Naniwa of all the people I follow still do commentary and community interaction. Day9 for instance is just circlejerking with youtube celebrities which I have absolute no interest in. and not just day9 -- it feels like many others are moving away from SC2, or are just looking to monetize my interest in e-sports.
I no longer look forward to tournaments because the game feels stale. HotS is being criticized by pros so I as an amateur player/spectator don't feel like I have much to look forward to.
Only the GSL still feels relevant, but not so fun with the influx of new players I don't know. I doubt I'll renew my subscription.
OSL feels relevant in terms of player skill, but is IMO unwatchable because of the casters and the disinterest OSL has for foreign viewers.
So that's my point of view.
I still visit Team Liquid and I often check up on the SC reddit page. It's often disappointing because I no longer see threads like "OMG NESTEA DOES SOMETHING AMAZING WOW MUST-SEE GAME" instead it's all whine and bullshit, like my post now.
What I find the most ridiculous are people calling for the community to change attitude. won't happen. blizzard must make SC2 a better game and tournaments must cut down on bullshit filler stuff. 2 dreamhacks, 4 mlgs, quarterly GSL, blizzard WC tourney <- that's all I really need.
Luckily for you, you can watch what you need and ignore what you don't. Too much choice in this case is kind of bullshit. I only watch premier tournaments for the most part unless a player I enjoy is in them (such as IPL Fight Club). The fact that there is always some smaller tournament going on doesn't bother me, I just check the results if im interested and go on my way. Are people really so retarded that they can't do this?
If your old favorites are dropping out and the only guys you follow are Naniwa, Sase and Morrow (didn't even have to look at your nationality), this is a bit of a problem. In the end it is up to you, but give new players a chance. Lots of the 'new' players in GSL actually aren't that new (either they are from kespa or they were having success previously in a more limited nature). It might not work for some people, but its not nearly as big a problem as people think it is until they give them a try.
|
RTS was never very popular. SC2 is capturing most of the market already. Be happy about it already..
|
On October 23 2012 12:14 Zaurus wrote:
RTS was never very popular. SC2 is capturing most of the market already. Be happy about it already..
That's one of the biggests myths I keep reading. RTS games have always been mainstays on pc. There was a period of time where a huge amount of them came out in a similar timeframe and all did really well. The RTS genre isn't unpopular, it's a lack of good RTS games that's the problem
|
I'd rather have five active players in the entire SC2 ladder at any given time than cater to causal player.
I'd rather have a well thought out, well balanced, harder-than-hell game than to turn it over to the casual player.
Keep dumbing down the game Blizzard.
When the casual fan-base [who already stays with any game for ~5 months] stops playing SC2 and are playing some Win-Win game and the people who really love Starcraft are left playing a game that a seven year old can grasp, you've ruined not only the reputation of the game but your reputation as a company.
We all know who is going to win this fight,
+ Show Spoiler +
|
On October 23 2012 12:59 Filter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 12:14 Zaurus wrote:
RTS was never very popular. SC2 is capturing most of the market already. Be happy about it already.. That's one of the biggests myths I keep reading. RTS games have always been mainstays on pc. There was a period of time where a huge amount of them came out in a similar timeframe and all did really well. The RTS genre isn't unpopular, it's a lack of good RTS games that's the problem
Well you can blame Browder and Kim for that.. they made their ex-IP crumble.
|
On October 23 2012 14:44 PauseBreak wrote:I'd rather have five active players in the entire SC2 ladder at any given time than cater to causal player. I'd rather have a well thought out, well balanced, harder-than-hell game than to turn it over to the casual player. Keep dumbing down the game Blizzard. When the casual fan-base [who already stays with any game for ~5 months] stops playing SC2 and are playing some Win-Win game and the people who really love Starcraft are left playing a game that a seven year old can grasp, you've ruined not only the reputation of the game but your reputation as a company. We all know who is going to win this fight, + Show Spoiler +
your passion is admirable, but sc2 was made to attract casual players, it was just a poorly executed job with the sucks interface of battlenet
|
On October 23 2012 14:47 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 12:59 Filter wrote:On October 23 2012 12:14 Zaurus wrote:
RTS was never very popular. SC2 is capturing most of the market already. Be happy about it already.. That's one of the biggests myths I keep reading. RTS games have always been mainstays on pc. There was a period of time where a huge amount of them came out in a similar timeframe and all did really well. The RTS genre isn't unpopular, it's a lack of good RTS games that's the problem Well you can blame Browder and Kim for that.. they made their ex-IP crumble.
I dont know about RTS being the mainstays. MOBA is not the only game competing, there are so many MMORPGs out there right now. What about FPS? Dont expect the pool of players playing sc2 to be more than those interested in RTS. RTS being the mainstays is probably an even bigger myth.
|
On October 22 2012 17:08 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 16:47 Grummler wrote:On October 22 2012 14:29 bokeevboke wrote:I think main problem is game-play itself rather than UI. You could witness it in most recent finals where Zerg was all about getting lategame compo and others not letting it happen. I don't think its horrible but its getting boring coz every game is the same. The lategame PvZ matchup has little to do with the declining viewership of sc2. Lategame PvZ is one of the reason why most hardcore fans who still care about sc2 are currently not so happy, true, but it is not the reason why most casuals are gone. They are gone because the core feature of sc2 is extremly competitive and demanding while there is no other content that makes the everyday casual player happy. sc2 social experience: not existent during the first year, pretty bad right now. custom games and arcade: simply doesn't work. of course it doesn't help that even the hardcore fans don't like watching your everday tournament anymore... People stop playing because gameplay is very frustrating: - Too many badly designed impairing spells like FF, FG, vortex - Too much deathball - Imbalanced timings where one race has an unfair advantage (this is true for all races!!) That last one is the worst of all imo. Just think about it: imbalance claims is an obsession in the community. And why is that? Are SC2 players really such endless whinners? No, I believe there are many valid reasons for all that frustration because all races feel very UP at some situations. And this is all because the design team thinks 'asymmetrical balance' is about switching between being OP earlygame to being UP lategame when it's not. Asymmetrical balance is giving different races different tools and weapons but having a fair fight from start to finish.
You didn't get my point. Most people whine about balance and gameplay. True. But these are also people who are still activly involved with sc2. They are still there.
But there is also a big chunk of people who stopped being interested in sc2. And they didn't do that because of some gameplay and balance.
Most people played team games and custom games in bw.
Most people played team games and custom games in wc3.
Most people wanted to play team games and custom games in sc2. They found these features inferior to what they were used to and stopped playing.
Hell, i started sc2 with 8 of my friends. They the last one was logged in 1 year ago. They never were interested in playing 1v1. Watching tournaments? Sure! I even believe that one of them still watches husky every now and then. But they certainly didn't stop playing because terran stim timings were strong during that period of time.
Don't get me wrong, the current PvX matchups and overall balance is certainly not good. But if sc2 had a decent social experience and arcade system right at release date we easily would have 2-3 times as many people being active in sc2 right now. Better balance? Maybe 20% more active people (+more a overall more happy base) but not more.
|
On October 22 2012 12:59 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
the desktop PC is being used less and less each year.
females will never play SC2 in any great numbers.
people thinking SC2 or any RTS will "sweep the nation" are incorrect.
strategy video games have always had a hard-core, vocal, loyal, SMALL fan base.
other great strategy titles like M.U.L.E. and C&C also had their day in the sun, but as great as those games are/were the most popular games were things like Pac-man and Super Mario...this trend is not going to change.
casual players who like to play farmville are not going to abandan their chickens and goats so they can blow up a command center with a nuclear bomb.
SC2 is a niche market title that is part of a niche market ( desktop PCs ) that is slowly shrinking in mainstream usage with each passing year.
just enjoy the game for what it is ... as people who loved M.U.L.E. and C&C loved those games.
stop fantasizing the Starcraft2 might somehow become as popular as baseball. ...
and everything should be fine.
in 5 years SC2 will have a small loyal fan base and hacking will be rampant.
if you can't enjoy the game for its merits and "as is" and can only "have fun" if u have in ur mind that this game will start appearing on ESPN then try playing a different game.
This right here is the bitter truth! +1!
I'll just comment about eSports and North America:
People, especially on this website and sc2 forums, daydream about Starcraft bringing "eSports" into mainstream.
I don't think people understand the sporting culture of the world, especially of north America. For a sports to become popular, actual physical activity is a must. Sports simply do not show a significant rise viewership over long periods of time if there is no actual physical activity. SC2 will always be seen as just another video game with limited life by an average person. As JimmyJRaynor said, its a niche.
I have to say it but eSport promotion is a losing battle in North American. Viewership is too small to support anything except small scale tournaments. But there is nothing wrong with small scale - lets enjoy it.
Another good point JimmyJRaynor made is the decline of Desktop PCs.
He's absolutely right. Apple etc, for example, have basically changed the course of personal devices and the "pads" are the future. I mean, people are moving away from laptops towards handled pads "eg. iPad"...so does anyone really think Desktops are going to last? But currently there is something fun about Desktops - I have always been a PC gamer and will continue to be till the inevitable happens: the end of desktops as a platform for gaming, or for anything.
It's best to stop feeling sad or frustrated about the state of the game. If you like SC2, play it regardless of how it is doing as an "eSport". Let Blizzard worry about the future of their company.
|
On October 18 2012 14:25 HolyExlxF wrote:
I think Blizzard needs to stop listening to the community - regarding balance decisions - and I think the community needs to stop feeling so goddamned entitled.
This is so wrong, in so many aspects, read Grubby's and SaSe's statement on the current game (and balance) situation, I feel like they know exactly what they're talking about.
Besides the fact that SC2 has "just in this moment" a slight problem of balance, I feel that SC2 is still the 2nd best RTS game ever made. After Broodwar obviously. And ppl who are saying that WC3 was anything special, read Grubbys, DeMuslims, and Naniwas statement where they mention that WC3 was imbalanced as shit
SC2 is right now way more balanced than WC3 will ever be. But that's not the point here, just my two sentence on that.
We still need to wait until HotS and LoV is out, hopefully Blizzard knows what they're doing
|
So there seem to be 2 distinct problems here:
1) the bad Bnet UI that doesn't attract new players (you feel alone, disconnected, etc)
2) the persistence of some bad game design choices that make people loose interest(enforced rules on maps, death balls, retarded spells like FG that make for unticlimactic moments, boring units like Colossus, units being balanced by nerfs instead of buffs making them feel pedestrian, etc)
I'm personally bored by SC2 and stopped playing and watching some time ago and HOTS doesn't seem to be even trying to fix some of the core design problems. At this point, it looks like WOL with a few extra units.
|
On October 23 2012 12:10 zefreak wrote:
If your old favorites are dropping out and the only guys you follow are Naniwa, Sase and Morrow (didn't even have to look at your nationality)
:D
But that's a big part of what keeps people interested. Rooting for nations (much so in my case), teams, and "the best players"/legends (like Boxer or Flash) are what draws in viewers for the long term.
|
On October 23 2012 10:02 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 00:40 Azoryen wrote:On October 22 2012 23:52 [F_]aths wrote:
We as a community need to voice our support for the game. If a new guy reads this forum, he gets the impression that SC2 is a terrible game, made by dumbasses who are neither able to balance the game, nor to have any understanding about how the game should be played anyway.
Sorry, but what we all need to voice is how displeased we are with the game design they created. Then maybe someone will get rid of this crapy design team and put someone on the job who actually knows what they're doing. If I challenged you for a 10 minute fight where you fight blindfolded for the first 5 minutes and I fight with my hands tied together for the next 5 minutes would you accept it? Then why are we all playing a game where they openly admit that one race is weaker midgame and the other is weaker late game and call this 'asymmetrical design'? Asymmetrical design is not this, is giving races different weapons and different feels, while keeping the game fair to both sides at any moment.I don't get, for example, how it's possible that David Kim publicly admits that, in PvT, T is stronger midgame and P is stronger lategame and no one gets fired the very next day. It's completely obvious to anyone but them that this creates frustrating gameplay, because you feel it's unfair to loose at a stage in the game when your race is known to be weaker. And this happens to all races. It also leads to obvious turtling play, because people will run away from fights until they feel they have the upper hand. Add to this all the impairing spells like FF, FG or vortex and you have the most stupidly frustrating game ever. I have not thought of this as a huge issue but it kind of is. That assymetric balance is causing all these timings. Good post, but SC2's problem is not only this. The deathball movement mechanics is another one.
What if I told you the main reason for deathball play is ALSO this shity view of what asymmetrical design is?
If you know your race is worse midgame and better lategame what do you do? Turtle and make a lategame deathball. Simple and obvious.
|
On October 23 2012 16:14 NexCa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 14:25 HolyExlxF wrote:
I think Blizzard needs to stop listening to the community - regarding balance decisions - and I think the community needs to stop feeling so goddamned entitled. This is so wrong, in so many aspects, read Grubby's and SaSe's statement on the current game (and balance) situation, I feel like they know exactly what they're talking about. Besides the fact that SC2 has "just in this moment" a slight problem of balance, I feel that SC2 is still the 2nd best RTS game ever made. After Broodwar obviously. And ppl who are saying that WC3 was anything special, read Grubbys, DeMuslims, and Naniwas statement where they mention that WC3 was imbalanced as shit SC2 is right now way more balanced than WC3 will ever be. But that's not the point here, just my two sentence on that. We still need to wait until HotS and LoV is out, hopefully Blizzard knows what they're doing
The problem with SC2 design is not simply because it's imbalanced.
People will play an imbalanced game if it's lots of fun.
The problem with SC2 design is that it creates very frustrating and boring gameplay.
When you are being owned by OP spells that at the same time leave you no chance of response, like FF, FG or vortex, you are left with a bitter taste in your mouth.
It's not just because they are imba, it's because they are bad design.
- You think it's fun to have your army divided in 2 by forcefields and feel hopeless while watching half your units die? It's not, it's frustrating.
- You think it's fun to practice marine micro for hours and have all your marines being paralised by fungals and exploded by banes? It's not, it's frustrating.
- You think it's fun to inject flawlessly for 25 minutes and loose all your broodloords to an archon toilet? It's not, it's frustrating.
|
On October 23 2012 00:40 Azoryen wrote:
I don't get, for example, how it's possible that David Kim publicly admits that, in PvT, T is stronger midgame and P is stronger lategame and no one gets fired the very next day.
I am not sure if you are trolling or trying to satirise a part of the community.
On October 23 2012 17:17 Sapphire.lux wrote:
So there seem to be 2 distinct problems here:
1) the bad Bnet UI that doesn't attract new players (you feel alone, disconnected, etc)
Or you don't feel forced to autojoin a chat room where kids are shittalking each other or where chat bots advertise for webpages. Compared to WC3 it is much easier now to talk to someone after a game. I feed more involved in SC2 than in WC3, where I was glad when Blizzard patched the client to allowed to start a game without autojoining any chat room. (Bit friends list access still implied autojoin of a general chat.)
|
On October 23 2012 17:45 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 00:40 Azoryen wrote:
I don't get, for example, how it's possible that David Kim publicly admits that, in PvT, T is stronger midgame and P is stronger lategame and no one gets fired the very next day. I am not sure if you are trolling or trying to satirise a part of the community. Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 17:17 Sapphire.lux wrote:
So there seem to be 2 distinct problems here:
1) the bad Bnet UI that doesn't attract new players (you feel alone, disconnected, etc) Or you don't feel forced to autojoin a chat room where kids are shittalking each other or where chat bots advertise for webpages. Compared to WC3 it is much easier now to talk to someone after a game. I feed more involved in SC2 than in WC3, where I was glad when Blizzard allowed to start a game without autojoining any chat room.
League doesn't force you into a chatroom either, the strength of that games social aspect right now is playing with friends and sharing the experience. Something that can't be easily replicated in a 1v1 game.
If SC2 had really good team support with cool stuff like team rankings it would be pretty sweet. Having your ladder rating affect your teams ladder or something along those lines would be pretty cool. Even just having team based ratings for 2v2 3v3 4v4 etc would be awesome. Breaking that off into an entirely separate ladder where even if you have 20 people on your team you all share a ranking if you choose to play the team mode. It's silly that everytime I play a team game with friends if somebody has to go we have to do all 5 placements again with somebody else.
Something like that would even add a new dynamic to ladder, where two players that respected each others play one guy might invite the other to his team etc. Being able to share replays with your team from in game, group watching of replays and all that stuff.
Yeah sc2 is a 1v1 game, but the social aspect of it could be extremely good. When BW first came out players basically did these things on their own, which was acceptable at the time. Things have changed now, and the easier it is for players to interact with each other the better.
|
On October 23 2012 17:45 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 00:40 Azoryen wrote:
I don't get, for example, how it's possible that David Kim publicly admits that, in PvT, T is stronger midgame and P is stronger lategame and no one gets fired the very next day. I am not sure if you are trolling or trying to satirise a part of the community.
Neither.
This idiotic view on what assymetrical design is the main reason for:
- deathball play
- turtling
- boring and repetitive gameplay
So if this was premeditated by someone, that guy needs to get FIRED!
If this was not premeditated, it shows how little control they have over the game's balance, so it's basic incompetence as well.
|
On October 23 2012 17:45 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 00:40 Azoryen wrote:
I don't get, for example, how it's possible that David Kim publicly admits that, in PvT, T is stronger midgame and P is stronger lategame and no one gets fired the very next day. I am not sure if you are trolling or trying to satirise a part of the community. Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 17:17 Sapphire.lux wrote:
So there seem to be 2 distinct problems here:
1) the bad Bnet UI that doesn't attract new players (you feel alone, disconnected, etc) Or you don't feel forced to autojoin a chat room where kids are shittalking each other or where chat bots advertise for webpages. Compared to WC3 it is much easier now to talk to someone after a game. I feed more involved in SC2 than in WC3, where I was glad when Blizzard patched the client to allowed to start a game without autojoining any chat room. (Bit friends list access still implied autojoin of a general chat.)
It seems like most people have the opposite opinion though. But you should have the option to customize things for sure.
I find the actual game design to be the biggest problem, it actually makes people that used to like the game stop doing so. Attracting new people is important, but if you can't even keep the ones you used to have...something is very wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
