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Bashing of any sort will result in temp bans. |
On October 22 2012 03:26 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 03:22 ssxsilver wrote:On October 22 2012 03:16 babylon wrote:On October 22 2012 03:14 ssxsilver wrote:On October 22 2012 03:02 Swords wrote:
To some extent, I think the ultimate answer to Slayers collapse is going to be that everyone fucked up. I'm sure some of the players were divas. I'm sure manager J upsetting things from within was a total mess. I'm also sure that Slayers management (Jessica, etc.) did a poor job resolving everything.
If you just look at the team and the number of players they lost/had to demote at various times it becomes clear the environment in that house could not have been too good. Golden, Sleep, Ganzi, MMA, Alicia, Dragon, Crank, and Taeja all left the team or were punished at various times. Three of their top players were leaving the house to play LoL at PC bangs. There was the massive twitter drama with Eve, where Jessica threatened to sue people. Regardless of who's fault it is that Slayers collapsed, that many people either leaving the team or being demoted demonstrates to me a really terrible team environment. To some extent that falls on players for not looking out for each other. To some extent it falls on management - because regardless of how shitty players are acting it is managements job to take care of the players, keep them happy, and work out conflicts with them. This doesn't seem to have ever happened - people either left or there was lots of drama over their punishments. Given that Golden wrote a thank you letter to Jessica upon leaving Slayers and Sleep/Ganzi/Dragon/Taeja have left Slayers without much incident, it's kinda disingenuous to attach a negative connotation to their departures. In regards to the Eve stuff, her face was being photoshopped on pornographic images. A twitter war is probably one extreme solution to it, but I'm sure if Jessica were to do nothing then people (given the random things they're finding issue with here) will accuse her of being negligent. Actually, Dragon also got embroiled in some drama while leaving SlayerS under the pretense of not looking for another team (but then getting picked up). I do believe there might've been a Twitter war about that too, but Dragon didn't even attempt to defend himself. Will add that apparently both Ganzi and Taeja were picked up by SlayerS amidst some drama as well. But Ganzi and Taeja's departures weren't management-related though were they? Ganzi wanted to join a foreign team for a year before service and further details were released on that. Taeja left on good terms IIRC. You're right on Dragon though. From what I understand, Taeja left because he wasn't benefiting from his time on the team. He didn't play in the teamhouse, didn't practice with the team members, and SlayerS allegedly had so many other players they simply didn't have enough time, space, or resources for him. Hell, when he helped Boxer through to Code S, Boxer said that he hadn't realized Taeja was so good. The kid just wasn't appreciated much and didn't receive the attention he deserved given his skill level. Whether or not you consider that "management-related" is another thing altogether, I guess.
It doesn't strike me as there's "bad-blood" between Taeja and Slayers though (that's why I don't think it's fair to lump Taeja with MMA/Alicia)... people change teams all the time and not all of it stems from something negative (it'd be like people trying to find some bigger reason for Huk going from TL>EG). Unless I totally misunderstood that, in which case I stand corrected.
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On October 22 2012 03:31 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 03:24 NightOfTheDead wrote:
I wonder why she decided go public, instead of taking all those pre-emptive measures (silencing any accusations, bad mouthing on her) behind the scenes. Cause she totally could. THAT would be a genuine thing to do, which she aspires to in her 'caring manager' persona. This is from Players-Jessica standpoint, not the ESF one. Are you seriously suggesting she hasn't tried?
She probably tried, but releasing information right now when she is basically no longer involved in SC2 just makes it seem like she's trying to tarnish everyone's reputation in one fell swoop despite her insistence that she cares for her players. FXOBoss had it right:
A question I would like answered is, after I had a run in with sc2con and went blatantly public with it, why didn’t slayers come to me and say “We had a problem also here it is”. I would have publicly spat that out so quickly. Sc2con was an abomination and I had every reason to insult it publicly to get things done.
One of the problems I am now facing as a person who wants an explanation for all actions from both sides, is that everyone has now gone tight lipped and anti-outsider. “Don’t worry, just don’t tweet kk?” is a common sentence being spat at me now. I tell you what, if anyone, foreign or Korean wants to survive in an industry like e-sports, you better start fighting for the greater good. If someone is pissing you off with bullshit tactics, start exposing it. If someone is harassing your players expose it. If someone is harassing you, expose it. Get it out in the public in a formal manner. Because sitting in silence in this market full of bullies, is not going to achieve ANYTHING.
Exposing this crap AFTER the fact doesn’t achieve ANYTHING but damage to an industry. Theres no progress. Theres no growth. If anything it does the complete opposite, and I now question whether or not this was a motive for exposure. Was this done to hurt people more than they hurt you? I do believe in an eye for an eye, but you are blinding an entire industry instead of just those people.
EDIT: Didn't mean to say that Taeja or any other player aside from the obvious culprits left SlayerS on a bad note, just pointing out that it's possible that there were management difficulties for whatever reason (e.g. size of the team might be a good one).
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On October 22 2012 03:35 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 03:31 Shival wrote:On October 22 2012 03:24 NightOfTheDead wrote:
I wonder why she decided go public, instead of taking all those pre-emptive measures (silencing any accusations, bad mouthing on her) behind the scenes. Cause she totally could. THAT would be a genuine thing to do, which she aspires to in her 'caring manager' persona. This is from Players-Jessica standpoint, not the ESF one. Are you seriously suggesting she hasn't tried? She probably tried, but releasing information right now when she is basically no longer involved in SC2 just makes it seem like she's trying to tarnish everyone's reputation in one fell swoop despite her insistence that she cares for her players. FXOBoss had it right: Show nested quote +A question I would like answered is, after I had a run in with sc2con and went blatantly public with it, why didn’t slayers come to me and say “We had a problem also here it is”. I would have publicly spat that out so quickly. Sc2con was an abomination and I had every reason to insult it publicly to get things done.
One of the problems I am now facing as a person who wants an explanation for all actions from both sides, is that everyone has now gone tight lipped and anti-outsider. “Don’t worry, just don’t tweet kk?” is a common sentence being spat at me now. I tell you what, if anyone, foreign or Korean wants to survive in an industry like e-sports, you better start fighting for the greater good. If someone is pissing you off with bullshit tactics, start exposing it. If someone is harassing your players expose it. If someone is harassing you, expose it. Get it out in the public in a formal manner. Because sitting in silence in this market full of bullies, is not going to achieve ANYTHING.
Exposing this crap AFTER the fact doesn’t achieve ANYTHING but damage to an industry. Theres no progress. Theres no growth. If anything it does the complete opposite, and I now question whether or not this was a motive for exposure. Was this done to hurt people more than they hurt you? I do believe in an eye for an eye, but you are blinding an entire industry instead of just those people. EDIT: Didn't mean to say that Taeja or any other player aside from the obvious culprits left SlayerS on a bad note, just pointing out that it's possible that there were management difficulties for whatever reason (e.g. size of the team might be a good one).
Indeed, 'seem' is the correct word to use here. I've been saying this countless of times, and haven't had a satisfactory answer (other than, 'you're right' or somesuch) to it yet:
Are you suggesting that she should've kept it bottled up?
That all the (supposed, if her story holds true, which it seems to so far) lying, unfair accusations towards Boxer, eSF ban (which may or may not be illegal in S-Korea, that's inconclusive but darn close to being illegal) and bullying should be kept away from the community?
That they may continue on their merry way, earning sponsorships and money, while we think they're good persons, while in all honesty they are not?
That eSF should be allowed to continue to misuses their power for their own gain?
Should I continue?
Edit: I do agree on the top part of the FXOBoSS excerpt, not on the last paragraph though. I think from now on people in the industry should be more open about abuse. eSports organisations (especially eSF ones) should be more transparant if they want to win back the respect they lost in so many community members eyes. I don't think that's something to be held against Jessica or Slayers though, they still had the ability to keep the scene in a positive light if they were able to work out their differences with other parties. Sadly that wasn't to be and the abuse apperantly continued. Only way to solve it then is to bring it to light.
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wow slayers disbanded. Sad but it was probably inevitable seeing how so many people left the team.
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On October 22 2012 03:45 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 03:35 babylon wrote:On October 22 2012 03:31 Shival wrote:On October 22 2012 03:24 NightOfTheDead wrote:
I wonder why she decided go public, instead of taking all those pre-emptive measures (silencing any accusations, bad mouthing on her) behind the scenes. Cause she totally could. THAT would be a genuine thing to do, which she aspires to in her 'caring manager' persona. This is from Players-Jessica standpoint, not the ESF one. Are you seriously suggesting she hasn't tried? She probably tried, but releasing information right now when she is basically no longer involved in SC2 just makes it seem like she's trying to tarnish everyone's reputation in one fell swoop despite her insistence that she cares for her players. FXOBoss had it right: A question I would like answered is, after I had a run in with sc2con and went blatantly public with it, why didn’t slayers come to me and say “We had a problem also here it is”. I would have publicly spat that out so quickly. Sc2con was an abomination and I had every reason to insult it publicly to get things done.
One of the problems I am now facing as a person who wants an explanation for all actions from both sides, is that everyone has now gone tight lipped and anti-outsider. “Don’t worry, just don’t tweet kk?” is a common sentence being spat at me now. I tell you what, if anyone, foreign or Korean wants to survive in an industry like e-sports, you better start fighting for the greater good. If someone is pissing you off with bullshit tactics, start exposing it. If someone is harassing your players expose it. If someone is harassing you, expose it. Get it out in the public in a formal manner. Because sitting in silence in this market full of bullies, is not going to achieve ANYTHING.
Exposing this crap AFTER the fact doesn’t achieve ANYTHING but damage to an industry. Theres no progress. Theres no growth. If anything it does the complete opposite, and I now question whether or not this was a motive for exposure. Was this done to hurt people more than they hurt you? I do believe in an eye for an eye, but you are blinding an entire industry instead of just those people. EDIT: Didn't mean to say that Taeja or any other player aside from the obvious culprits left SlayerS on a bad note, just pointing out that it's possible that there were management difficulties for whatever reason (e.g. size of the team might be a good one). Indeed, 'seem' is the correct word to use here. I've been saying this countless of times, and haven't had a satisfactory answer (other than, 'you're right' or somesuch) to it yet: Are you suggesting that she should've kept it bottled up? That all the (supposed, if her story holds true, which it seems to so far) lying, unfair accusations towards Boxer, eSF ban (which may or may not be illegal in S-Korea, that's inconclusive but darn close to being illegal) and bullying should be kept away from the community? That they may continue on their merry way, earning sponsorships and money, while we think they're good persons, while in all honesty they are not? That eSF misuses their power for their own gain? Should I continue?
It "seems" that way because that is the only rational explanation as to why she didn't expose it at the time like she did all the other issues. In no way did I suggest that she should bottle it up, so stop putting words in my mouth. Did you not read Boss's statement all the way through where he asked the exact same question as to why she didn't start her Twitter wars when this boycott was happening (after all, she is no stranger to firing off accusatory Tweets) which is much more serious than, say, Dragon deciding to leave the team?
EDIT: Well, obviously you've read it now.  I think she should've exposed the bullying and the practice ban, but if she'd really cared about her players, she wouldn't have decided to throw them in the fire the way she has. She loves to bandy around words about her being a "mother" to the players. Maybe it's just my mom, but my mom wouldn't do anything like this; she'd reprimand me in private, but she wouldn't basically start a cyberbullying campaign against me. This is like Coach Lee's "I cared so much about PuMa, HE LEFT ME, THEREFORE I WILL RELEASE THIS PRESS STATEMENT" that had PuMa getting cyberbullied (pretty much) for weeks.
This is especially the case in Jessica's latest post; she'll release the phone call but for fear of having people say it's fake (lol) she'll include the entire recording, which incidentally happens to involve three other players. Right. It's not as if she doesn't already have most of the Korean community on her side and eating out of her hand.
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On October 22 2012 03:45 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 03:35 babylon wrote:On October 22 2012 03:31 Shival wrote:On October 22 2012 03:24 NightOfTheDead wrote:
I wonder why she decided go public, instead of taking all those pre-emptive measures (silencing any accusations, bad mouthing on her) behind the scenes. Cause she totally could. THAT would be a genuine thing to do, which she aspires to in her 'caring manager' persona. This is from Players-Jessica standpoint, not the ESF one. Are you seriously suggesting she hasn't tried? She probably tried, but releasing information right now when she is basically no longer involved in SC2 just makes it seem like she's trying to tarnish everyone's reputation in one fell swoop despite her insistence that she cares for her players. FXOBoss had it right: A question I would like answered is, after I had a run in with sc2con and went blatantly public with it, why didn’t slayers come to me and say “We had a problem also here it is”. I would have publicly spat that out so quickly. Sc2con was an abomination and I had every reason to insult it publicly to get things done.
One of the problems I am now facing as a person who wants an explanation for all actions from both sides, is that everyone has now gone tight lipped and anti-outsider. “Don’t worry, just don’t tweet kk?” is a common sentence being spat at me now. I tell you what, if anyone, foreign or Korean wants to survive in an industry like e-sports, you better start fighting for the greater good. If someone is pissing you off with bullshit tactics, start exposing it. If someone is harassing your players expose it. If someone is harassing you, expose it. Get it out in the public in a formal manner. Because sitting in silence in this market full of bullies, is not going to achieve ANYTHING.
Exposing this crap AFTER the fact doesn’t achieve ANYTHING but damage to an industry. Theres no progress. Theres no growth. If anything it does the complete opposite, and I now question whether or not this was a motive for exposure. Was this done to hurt people more than they hurt you? I do believe in an eye for an eye, but you are blinding an entire industry instead of just those people. EDIT: Didn't mean to say that Taeja or any other player aside from the obvious culprits left SlayerS on a bad note, just pointing out that it's possible that there were management difficulties for whatever reason (e.g. size of the team might be a good one). Indeed, 'seem' is the correct word to use here. I've been saying this countless of times, and haven't had a satisfactory answer (other than, 'you're right' or somesuch) to it yet: Are you suggesting that she should've kept it bottled up? That all the (supposed, if her story holds true, which it seems to so far) lying, unfair accusations towards Boxer, eSF ban (which may or may not be illegal in S-Korea, that's inconclusive but darn close to being illegal) and bullying should be kept away from the community? That they may continue on their merry way, earning sponsorships and money, while we think they're good persons, while in all honesty they are not? That eSF misuses their power for their own gain? Should I continue?
No, ESF things had to be public, because this practice was atrocious.
However, what does this achieve through the players' perspective? It is no win for anyone. She is no longer in the business, and her 'beloved' players are in deep sh*t. How does this help her rather than screaming in a zealous manner "Justice"? Are you suggesting players were driven by totally malicious intents to sabotage her? No, they wanted to quit the team, even if their methods are beyond terrible.
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I'm starting to gain back a lot more respect and even gain respect for players that I never really looked at after hearing the other side to this whole story. Reading Jessica's statements I was pretty hurt inside that they had to go through this but now seeing the other perspectives I've gained more respect for MC who I can see clearly did nothing wrong and only said what he said to a friend and fellow player as a joke while was practicing builds that are his own (I've said way worse jokingly to my friends and I have nothing but respect for them, er, most of them).
I feel so bad for Crank and the other players and this gives me hope for MMA who at first I was so disappointed with but now I can see there is so much more to this than meets the eye. Total Biscuit is awesome! Man I'm so glad he's the position he is in, he's very courteous and professional and at the same time has great passion and concern/care for what he does, I love this guy more and more! Thank you for handling this so incredibly well TB, your an awesome role model! You tell it like it is but you show care and passion and we all know you just have a big heart :-)
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On October 22 2012 03:52 NightOfTheDead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 03:45 Shival wrote:On October 22 2012 03:35 babylon wrote:On October 22 2012 03:31 Shival wrote:On October 22 2012 03:24 NightOfTheDead wrote:
I wonder why she decided go public, instead of taking all those pre-emptive measures (silencing any accusations, bad mouthing on her) behind the scenes. Cause she totally could. THAT would be a genuine thing to do, which she aspires to in her 'caring manager' persona. This is from Players-Jessica standpoint, not the ESF one. Are you seriously suggesting she hasn't tried? She probably tried, but releasing information right now when she is basically no longer involved in SC2 just makes it seem like she's trying to tarnish everyone's reputation in one fell swoop despite her insistence that she cares for her players. FXOBoss had it right: A question I would like answered is, after I had a run in with sc2con and went blatantly public with it, why didn’t slayers come to me and say “We had a problem also here it is”. I would have publicly spat that out so quickly. Sc2con was an abomination and I had every reason to insult it publicly to get things done.
One of the problems I am now facing as a person who wants an explanation for all actions from both sides, is that everyone has now gone tight lipped and anti-outsider. “Don’t worry, just don’t tweet kk?” is a common sentence being spat at me now. I tell you what, if anyone, foreign or Korean wants to survive in an industry like e-sports, you better start fighting for the greater good. If someone is pissing you off with bullshit tactics, start exposing it. If someone is harassing your players expose it. If someone is harassing you, expose it. Get it out in the public in a formal manner. Because sitting in silence in this market full of bullies, is not going to achieve ANYTHING.
Exposing this crap AFTER the fact doesn’t achieve ANYTHING but damage to an industry. Theres no progress. Theres no growth. If anything it does the complete opposite, and I now question whether or not this was a motive for exposure. Was this done to hurt people more than they hurt you? I do believe in an eye for an eye, but you are blinding an entire industry instead of just those people. EDIT: Didn't mean to say that Taeja or any other player aside from the obvious culprits left SlayerS on a bad note, just pointing out that it's possible that there were management difficulties for whatever reason (e.g. size of the team might be a good one). Indeed, 'seem' is the correct word to use here. I've been saying this countless of times, and haven't had a satisfactory answer (other than, 'you're right' or somesuch) to it yet: Are you suggesting that she should've kept it bottled up? That all the (supposed, if her story holds true, which it seems to so far) lying, unfair accusations towards Boxer, eSF ban (which may or may not be illegal in S-Korea, that's inconclusive but darn close to being illegal) and bullying should be kept away from the community? That they may continue on their merry way, earning sponsorships and money, while we think they're good persons, while in all honesty they are not? That eSF misuses their power for their own gain? Should I continue? No, ESF things had to be public, because this practice was atrocious. However, what does this achieve through the players' perspective? It is no win for anyone. She is no longer in the business, and her 'beloved' players are in deep sh*t. How does this help her rather than screaming in a zealous manner "Justice"? Are you suggesting players were driven by totally malicious intents to sabotage her? No, they wanted to quit the team, even if their methods are beyond terrible.
Indeed to both bolded parts.
It doesn't help her in the slightest, she may even have her own personal reputation tarnished (especially so if she's not telling the truth), which by the way would hurt her (,more profitable than eSports,) acting career. So why does she do it? Well the only logical answer to me is that she indeed thinks that justice should prevail, and I share that thought for reasons stated earlier.
The methods of the players are immature and unprofessional, whether they had malicious intent I cannot say. Regardless though, I do not believe those players can further the opinion of the general populace on eSports if they behave(d) that way.
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On October 22 2012 03:52 NightOfTheDead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 03:45 Shival wrote:On October 22 2012 03:35 babylon wrote:On October 22 2012 03:31 Shival wrote:On October 22 2012 03:24 NightOfTheDead wrote:
I wonder why she decided go public, instead of taking all those pre-emptive measures (silencing any accusations, bad mouthing on her) behind the scenes. Cause she totally could. THAT would be a genuine thing to do, which she aspires to in her 'caring manager' persona. This is from Players-Jessica standpoint, not the ESF one. Are you seriously suggesting she hasn't tried? She probably tried, but releasing information right now when she is basically no longer involved in SC2 just makes it seem like she's trying to tarnish everyone's reputation in one fell swoop despite her insistence that she cares for her players. FXOBoss had it right: A question I would like answered is, after I had a run in with sc2con and went blatantly public with it, why didn’t slayers come to me and say “We had a problem also here it is”. I would have publicly spat that out so quickly. Sc2con was an abomination and I had every reason to insult it publicly to get things done.
One of the problems I am now facing as a person who wants an explanation for all actions from both sides, is that everyone has now gone tight lipped and anti-outsider. “Don’t worry, just don’t tweet kk?” is a common sentence being spat at me now. I tell you what, if anyone, foreign or Korean wants to survive in an industry like e-sports, you better start fighting for the greater good. If someone is pissing you off with bullshit tactics, start exposing it. If someone is harassing your players expose it. If someone is harassing you, expose it. Get it out in the public in a formal manner. Because sitting in silence in this market full of bullies, is not going to achieve ANYTHING.
Exposing this crap AFTER the fact doesn’t achieve ANYTHING but damage to an industry. Theres no progress. Theres no growth. If anything it does the complete opposite, and I now question whether or not this was a motive for exposure. Was this done to hurt people more than they hurt you? I do believe in an eye for an eye, but you are blinding an entire industry instead of just those people. EDIT: Didn't mean to say that Taeja or any other player aside from the obvious culprits left SlayerS on a bad note, just pointing out that it's possible that there were management difficulties for whatever reason (e.g. size of the team might be a good one). Indeed, 'seem' is the correct word to use here. I've been saying this countless of times, and haven't had a satisfactory answer (other than, 'you're right' or somesuch) to it yet: Are you suggesting that she should've kept it bottled up? That all the (supposed, if her story holds true, which it seems to so far) lying, unfair accusations towards Boxer, eSF ban (which may or may not be illegal in S-Korea, that's inconclusive but darn close to being illegal) and bullying should be kept away from the community? That they may continue on their merry way, earning sponsorships and money, while we think they're good persons, while in all honesty they are not? That eSF misuses their power for their own gain? Should I continue? No, ESF things had to be public, because this practice was atrocious. However, what does this achieve through the players' perspective? It is no win for anyone. She is no longer in the business, and her 'beloved' players are in deep sh*t. How does this help her rather than screaming in a zealous manner "Justice"? Are you suggesting players were driven by totally malicious intents to sabotage her? No, they wanted to quit the team, even if their methods are beyond terrible.
Theory of mine: She's partially doing this to protect Boxer in the blaming game. When a team falls, fingers will be pointed(at least by the netizens). The fact that the timing for the announcement of Slayers disbanding and Boxer becoming head coach of SKT1 is no mere coincidence. Apparantly, she gave this interview to TIG in September, but told them not to release it until she said so. After Boxer was announced to be head coach, she told TIG to release, but TIG for some reasons(interviewer not found according to their explanation), did not do so, which lead to her releasing the news via other news portal.
By telling the full story, Boxer will not be blamed for the downfall of Slayers(if she did not release it, Boxer will most likely be accused as a leading factor for causing the downfall due to him jumping to SKT1). Also, by staying silent the whole time, Boxer will be untouchable throughout this whole drama. After all, the more you speak in this war, the more loopholes will be exposed.
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Jessica going public resulted in the head of eSF resigning, there you have a good reason for doing it.
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On October 22 2012 04:02 Zhasona wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 03:52 NightOfTheDead wrote:On October 22 2012 03:45 Shival wrote:On October 22 2012 03:35 babylon wrote:On October 22 2012 03:31 Shival wrote:On October 22 2012 03:24 NightOfTheDead wrote:
I wonder why she decided go public, instead of taking all those pre-emptive measures (silencing any accusations, bad mouthing on her) behind the scenes. Cause she totally could. THAT would be a genuine thing to do, which she aspires to in her 'caring manager' persona. This is from Players-Jessica standpoint, not the ESF one. Are you seriously suggesting she hasn't tried? She probably tried, but releasing information right now when she is basically no longer involved in SC2 just makes it seem like she's trying to tarnish everyone's reputation in one fell swoop despite her insistence that she cares for her players. FXOBoss had it right: A question I would like answered is, after I had a run in with sc2con and went blatantly public with it, why didn’t slayers come to me and say “We had a problem also here it is”. I would have publicly spat that out so quickly. Sc2con was an abomination and I had every reason to insult it publicly to get things done.
One of the problems I am now facing as a person who wants an explanation for all actions from both sides, is that everyone has now gone tight lipped and anti-outsider. “Don’t worry, just don’t tweet kk?” is a common sentence being spat at me now. I tell you what, if anyone, foreign or Korean wants to survive in an industry like e-sports, you better start fighting for the greater good. If someone is pissing you off with bullshit tactics, start exposing it. If someone is harassing your players expose it. If someone is harassing you, expose it. Get it out in the public in a formal manner. Because sitting in silence in this market full of bullies, is not going to achieve ANYTHING.
Exposing this crap AFTER the fact doesn’t achieve ANYTHING but damage to an industry. Theres no progress. Theres no growth. If anything it does the complete opposite, and I now question whether or not this was a motive for exposure. Was this done to hurt people more than they hurt you? I do believe in an eye for an eye, but you are blinding an entire industry instead of just those people. EDIT: Didn't mean to say that Taeja or any other player aside from the obvious culprits left SlayerS on a bad note, just pointing out that it's possible that there were management difficulties for whatever reason (e.g. size of the team might be a good one). Indeed, 'seem' is the correct word to use here. I've been saying this countless of times, and haven't had a satisfactory answer (other than, 'you're right' or somesuch) to it yet: Are you suggesting that she should've kept it bottled up? That all the (supposed, if her story holds true, which it seems to so far) lying, unfair accusations towards Boxer, eSF ban (which may or may not be illegal in S-Korea, that's inconclusive but darn close to being illegal) and bullying should be kept away from the community? That they may continue on their merry way, earning sponsorships and money, while we think they're good persons, while in all honesty they are not? That eSF misuses their power for their own gain? Should I continue? No, ESF things had to be public, because this practice was atrocious. However, what does this achieve through the players' perspective? It is no win for anyone. She is no longer in the business, and her 'beloved' players are in deep sh*t. How does this help her rather than screaming in a zealous manner "Justice"? Are you suggesting players were driven by totally malicious intents to sabotage her? No, they wanted to quit the team, even if their methods are beyond terrible. Theory of mine: She's partially doing this to protect Boxer in the blaming game. When a team falls, finger will be pointed(at least by the netizens). The fact that the timing for the announcement of Slayers disbanding and Boxer becoming head coach of SKT1 is no mere coincidence. Apparantly, she gave this interview to TIG in September, but told them not to release it until she said so. After Boxer was announced to be head coach, she told TIG to release, but TIG for some reasons(interviewer not found according to their explanation), did not do so, which lead to her releasing the news via other news portal. By telling the full story, Boxer will not be blamed for the downfall of Slayers(if she did not release it, Boxer will most likely be accused as a leading factor for causing the downfall due to him jumping to SKT1). Also, by staying silent the whole time, Boxer will be untouchable throughout this whole drama. After all, the more you speak in this war, the more loopholes will be exposed.
The problem that I see with this hypothecial situation is that it would've been much easier to simply say:
Boxer has lost motivation to play Starcraft 2 and wishes to become a coach. He has received a major offer from SKT that he does not wish to deny. Furthermore, as I (Jessica) want to focus more on my acting career we have decided that there's too little time and motivation to continue our endeavour in our own team. We'd like to thank everyone for supporting us and hope you will continue to support our players and ourselves in our future endeavours.
Thus this leads me to believe that that simply isn't the reasoning at all. She and Boxer honestly believe that injustice towards them has been done and that the abuses of the current SC2 organizations should be known to all.
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On October 22 2012 04:02 latan wrote:
Jessica going public resulted in the head of eSF resigning, there you have a good reason for doing it.
No problem there. However, this could be done with handling players behind the scenes with a formal Slayers parts ways with etc.etc. At least, with current information we have.
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I don't understand Crank's point of view at all. Like the team practice was bad ? What exactly ? Slayers was one of the most successful and one of the team with the most relaxed team environment. We even got video from Slayer players playing some random game like ninja turtle, and smiling, I don't see any team problem in there. Now of course he "rediscovered his passion for starcraft" thanks for axiom... blah.
This statement from axiom give nothing more and doesn't do anything to deny Jessica's arguments until now.
On October 22 2012 00:30 lilsusie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 00:25 Shival wrote:On October 22 2012 00:23 lilsusie wrote:On October 21 2012 23:46 farnham wrote:On October 21 2012 23:41 Ansinjunger wrote:
So Crank's statement doesn't have any "hard facts" like receipts, recordings, or replays, and people consider it a weak statement? As someone pointed out, the two statements largely coincide, except for Crank's talks with Boxer.
In any case, none of these boys had any reason to be covering their tracks and all that bs that Jessica does. If you can't see how she is acting out of spite while they just want to be free from this hateful situation, I don't know what will convince you short of Boxer selling her out, which is very unlikely. the crank statement only says that the atmosphere was bad, he tried to fix it but couldnt. it doesnt say what he saw as the problem and what he suggested if he suggested a payrise of 1000 percent that might have been good for morale but would have been hard for jessica and boxer to fund he blames that boxer was in the team house but didnt help them... help them with what? he needs to be specific also that short statement took them days to produce... looks like they edited out everything that could be countered by jessicas evidences He chose his words to make sure that no one else would get hurt. Obviously he's not going to be like "Boxer was actually doing X, Y and Z instead of doing A, B, C with us" because that would cause an even bigger ordeal. He's being politically very careful because he just wants people to know where he's coming from - Unlike Jessica, he's not looking to pick any more fights. Since when is saying that Boxer joined the house but didn't take care of them, nor did anything for the team, nor practiced starcraft 2 not hurting Boxer? Besides, if I were on the wrong side of the stick, I wouldn't be wanting to continue the fight either. What if he said Boxer came to the house but was only playing Hello Kitty Adventure all day and ignoring the players? That would make it worse, no? And according to the recording, he didn't say that Boxer did nothing for him. I'm not saying that Crank is 100% right but people are taking sides like they need to - when in fact, both sides basically had misunderstandings. I think that Crank could have handled it in a more mature way and I think Jessica is overly emotional, thus things blew up.
You cannot ask people to be completly impartial in this because, no matter what, Crank found himself a team and a salary - something he would never have had before with his level (code B player) - while the Slayers team is no more.
In the end, all this is a little ridiculous, just sad that slayers is dead.
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On October 22 2012 04:07 Shival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 04:02 Zhasona wrote:On October 22 2012 03:52 NightOfTheDead wrote:On October 22 2012 03:45 Shival wrote:On October 22 2012 03:35 babylon wrote:On October 22 2012 03:31 Shival wrote:On October 22 2012 03:24 NightOfTheDead wrote:
I wonder why she decided go public, instead of taking all those pre-emptive measures (silencing any accusations, bad mouthing on her) behind the scenes. Cause she totally could. THAT would be a genuine thing to do, which she aspires to in her 'caring manager' persona. This is from Players-Jessica standpoint, not the ESF one. Are you seriously suggesting she hasn't tried? She probably tried, but releasing information right now when she is basically no longer involved in SC2 just makes it seem like she's trying to tarnish everyone's reputation in one fell swoop despite her insistence that she cares for her players. FXOBoss had it right: A question I would like answered is, after I had a run in with sc2con and went blatantly public with it, why didn’t slayers come to me and say “We had a problem also here it is”. I would have publicly spat that out so quickly. Sc2con was an abomination and I had every reason to insult it publicly to get things done.
One of the problems I am now facing as a person who wants an explanation for all actions from both sides, is that everyone has now gone tight lipped and anti-outsider. “Don’t worry, just don’t tweet kk?” is a common sentence being spat at me now. I tell you what, if anyone, foreign or Korean wants to survive in an industry like e-sports, you better start fighting for the greater good. If someone is pissing you off with bullshit tactics, start exposing it. If someone is harassing your players expose it. If someone is harassing you, expose it. Get it out in the public in a formal manner. Because sitting in silence in this market full of bullies, is not going to achieve ANYTHING.
Exposing this crap AFTER the fact doesn’t achieve ANYTHING but damage to an industry. Theres no progress. Theres no growth. If anything it does the complete opposite, and I now question whether or not this was a motive for exposure. Was this done to hurt people more than they hurt you? I do believe in an eye for an eye, but you are blinding an entire industry instead of just those people. EDIT: Didn't mean to say that Taeja or any other player aside from the obvious culprits left SlayerS on a bad note, just pointing out that it's possible that there were management difficulties for whatever reason (e.g. size of the team might be a good one). Indeed, 'seem' is the correct word to use here. I've been saying this countless of times, and haven't had a satisfactory answer (other than, 'you're right' or somesuch) to it yet: Are you suggesting that she should've kept it bottled up? That all the (supposed, if her story holds true, which it seems to so far) lying, unfair accusations towards Boxer, eSF ban (which may or may not be illegal in S-Korea, that's inconclusive but darn close to being illegal) and bullying should be kept away from the community? That they may continue on their merry way, earning sponsorships and money, while we think they're good persons, while in all honesty they are not? That eSF misuses their power for their own gain? Should I continue? No, ESF things had to be public, because this practice was atrocious. However, what does this achieve through the players' perspective? It is no win for anyone. She is no longer in the business, and her 'beloved' players are in deep sh*t. How does this help her rather than screaming in a zealous manner "Justice"? Are you suggesting players were driven by totally malicious intents to sabotage her? No, they wanted to quit the team, even if their methods are beyond terrible. Theory of mine: She's partially doing this to protect Boxer in the blaming game. When a team falls, finger will be pointed(at least by the netizens). The fact that the timing for the announcement of Slayers disbanding and Boxer becoming head coach of SKT1 is no mere coincidence. Apparantly, she gave this interview to TIG in September, but told them not to release it until she said so. After Boxer was announced to be head coach, she told TIG to release, but TIG for some reasons(interviewer not found according to their explanation), did not do so, which lead to her releasing the news via other news portal. By telling the full story, Boxer will not be blamed for the downfall of Slayers(if she did not release it, Boxer will most likely be accused as a leading factor for causing the downfall due to him jumping to SKT1). Also, by staying silent the whole time, Boxer will be untouchable throughout this whole drama. After all, the more you speak in this war, the more loopholes will be exposed. The problem that I see with this hypothecial situation is that it would've been much easier to simply say: Boxer has lost motivation to play Starcraft 2 and wishes to become a coach. He has received a major offer from SKT that he does not wish to deny. Furthermore, as I (Jessica) want to focus more on my acting career we have decided that there's too little time and motivation to continue our endeavour in our own team. We'd like to thank everyone for supporting us and hope you will continue to support our players and ourselves in our future endeavours. Thus this leads me to believe that that simply isn't the reasoning at all. She and Boxer honestly believe that injustice towards them has been done and that the abuses of the current SC2 organizations should be known to all.
The problem is that by giving this type of statement, in the event Boxer wishes to recreate another gaming team, sponsors will be questioning him "Will you be giving up halfway to persue other options?" This type of problem will be haunting him in the future. Which is why instead of just saying a good offer from SKT1, the better way would be saying that all sorts of factor(ESF to internal troubles) that led him to losing interest, and he had to be sent to SKT1 to regain interest so that he could continue his gaming career.
Of course justice is another issue, which is why I said partially. After all, gamers depend on the general public for their income, and those who are at fault will be pressurized by the public to make amendments.
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On October 22 2012 04:18 Zhasona wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 04:07 Shival wrote:On October 22 2012 04:02 Zhasona wrote:On October 22 2012 03:52 NightOfTheDead wrote:On October 22 2012 03:45 Shival wrote:On October 22 2012 03:35 babylon wrote:On October 22 2012 03:31 Shival wrote:On October 22 2012 03:24 NightOfTheDead wrote:
I wonder why she decided go public, instead of taking all those pre-emptive measures (silencing any accusations, bad mouthing on her) behind the scenes. Cause she totally could. THAT would be a genuine thing to do, which she aspires to in her 'caring manager' persona. This is from Players-Jessica standpoint, not the ESF one. Are you seriously suggesting she hasn't tried? She probably tried, but releasing information right now when she is basically no longer involved in SC2 just makes it seem like she's trying to tarnish everyone's reputation in one fell swoop despite her insistence that she cares for her players. FXOBoss had it right: A question I would like answered is, after I had a run in with sc2con and went blatantly public with it, why didn’t slayers come to me and say “We had a problem also here it is”. I would have publicly spat that out so quickly. Sc2con was an abomination and I had every reason to insult it publicly to get things done.
One of the problems I am now facing as a person who wants an explanation for all actions from both sides, is that everyone has now gone tight lipped and anti-outsider. “Don’t worry, just don’t tweet kk?” is a common sentence being spat at me now. I tell you what, if anyone, foreign or Korean wants to survive in an industry like e-sports, you better start fighting for the greater good. If someone is pissing you off with bullshit tactics, start exposing it. If someone is harassing your players expose it. If someone is harassing you, expose it. Get it out in the public in a formal manner. Because sitting in silence in this market full of bullies, is not going to achieve ANYTHING.
Exposing this crap AFTER the fact doesn’t achieve ANYTHING but damage to an industry. Theres no progress. Theres no growth. If anything it does the complete opposite, and I now question whether or not this was a motive for exposure. Was this done to hurt people more than they hurt you? I do believe in an eye for an eye, but you are blinding an entire industry instead of just those people. EDIT: Didn't mean to say that Taeja or any other player aside from the obvious culprits left SlayerS on a bad note, just pointing out that it's possible that there were management difficulties for whatever reason (e.g. size of the team might be a good one). Indeed, 'seem' is the correct word to use here. I've been saying this countless of times, and haven't had a satisfactory answer (other than, 'you're right' or somesuch) to it yet: Are you suggesting that she should've kept it bottled up? That all the (supposed, if her story holds true, which it seems to so far) lying, unfair accusations towards Boxer, eSF ban (which may or may not be illegal in S-Korea, that's inconclusive but darn close to being illegal) and bullying should be kept away from the community? That they may continue on their merry way, earning sponsorships and money, while we think they're good persons, while in all honesty they are not? That eSF misuses their power for their own gain? Should I continue? No, ESF things had to be public, because this practice was atrocious. However, what does this achieve through the players' perspective? It is no win for anyone. She is no longer in the business, and her 'beloved' players are in deep sh*t. How does this help her rather than screaming in a zealous manner "Justice"? Are you suggesting players were driven by totally malicious intents to sabotage her? No, they wanted to quit the team, even if their methods are beyond terrible. Theory of mine: She's partially doing this to protect Boxer in the blaming game. When a team falls, finger will be pointed(at least by the netizens). The fact that the timing for the announcement of Slayers disbanding and Boxer becoming head coach of SKT1 is no mere coincidence. Apparantly, she gave this interview to TIG in September, but told them not to release it until she said so. After Boxer was announced to be head coach, she told TIG to release, but TIG for some reasons(interviewer not found according to their explanation), did not do so, which lead to her releasing the news via other news portal. By telling the full story, Boxer will not be blamed for the downfall of Slayers(if she did not release it, Boxer will most likely be accused as a leading factor for causing the downfall due to him jumping to SKT1). Also, by staying silent the whole time, Boxer will be untouchable throughout this whole drama. After all, the more you speak in this war, the more loopholes will be exposed. The problem that I see with this hypothecial situation is that it would've been much easier to simply say: Boxer has lost motivation to play Starcraft 2 and wishes to become a coach. He has received a major offer from SKT that he does not wish to deny. Furthermore, as I (Jessica) want to focus more on my acting career we have decided that there's too little time and motivation to continue our endeavour in our own team. We'd like to thank everyone for supporting us and hope you will continue to support our players and ourselves in our future endeavours. Thus this leads me to believe that that simply isn't the reasoning at all. She and Boxer honestly believe that injustice towards them has been done and that the abuses of the current SC2 organizations should be known to all. The problem is that by giving this type of statement, in the event Boxer wishes to recreate another gaming team, sponsors will be questioning him "Will you be giving up halfway to persue other options?" This type of problem will be haunting him in the future. Which is why instead of just saying a good offer from SKT1, the better way would be saying that all sorts of factor(ESF to internal troubles) that led him to losing interest, and he had to be sent to SKT1 to regain interest so that he could continue his gaming career. Of course justice is another issue, which is why I said partially. After all, gamers depend on the general public for their income, and those who are at fault will be pressurized by the public to make amendments.
Wouldn't they be worried about practically the same thing though? They may just as well ask "Will you be able to handle the team this time around, last time you failed to do so" not to mention "Last drama gave your previous sponsor a huge reputation hit, why should we sponsor you now?". Even though I do not agree with those assessments, because as I stated earlier, one man cannot swim against the current indefinately.
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stop theorizing guys, it is just annoying to read and making the situation even more complicated than it needs to be.
especially when one trying to best theory another, it just looks silly
it's fine to argue how one should have done what, discuss about the content of the statement but theorizing is just completely going way beyond it needs to be
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On October 22 2012 04:11 WhiteDog wrote:I don't understand Crank's point of view at all. Like the team practice was bad ? What exactly ? Slayers was one of the most successful and one of the team with the most relaxed team environment. We even got video from Slayer players playing some random game like ninja turtle, and smiling, I don't see any team problem in there. Now of course he "rediscovered his passion for starcraft" thanks for axiom... blah. This statement from axiom give nothing more and doesn't do anything to deny Jessica's arguments until now. Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 00:30 lilsusie wrote:On October 22 2012 00:25 Shival wrote:On October 22 2012 00:23 lilsusie wrote:On October 21 2012 23:46 farnham wrote:On October 21 2012 23:41 Ansinjunger wrote:
So Crank's statement doesn't have any "hard facts" like receipts, recordings, or replays, and people consider it a weak statement? As someone pointed out, the two statements largely coincide, except for Crank's talks with Boxer.
In any case, none of these boys had any reason to be covering their tracks and all that bs that Jessica does. If you can't see how she is acting out of spite while they just want to be free from this hateful situation, I don't know what will convince you short of Boxer selling her out, which is very unlikely. the crank statement only says that the atmosphere was bad, he tried to fix it but couldnt. it doesnt say what he saw as the problem and what he suggested if he suggested a payrise of 1000 percent that might have been good for morale but would have been hard for jessica and boxer to fund he blames that boxer was in the team house but didnt help them... help them with what? he needs to be specific also that short statement took them days to produce... looks like they edited out everything that could be countered by jessicas evidences He chose his words to make sure that no one else would get hurt. Obviously he's not going to be like "Boxer was actually doing X, Y and Z instead of doing A, B, C with us" because that would cause an even bigger ordeal. He's being politically very careful because he just wants people to know where he's coming from - Unlike Jessica, he's not looking to pick any more fights. Since when is saying that Boxer joined the house but didn't take care of them, nor did anything for the team, nor practiced starcraft 2 not hurting Boxer? Besides, if I were on the wrong side of the stick, I wouldn't be wanting to continue the fight either. What if he said Boxer came to the house but was only playing Hello Kitty Adventure all day and ignoring the players? That would make it worse, no? And according to the recording, he didn't say that Boxer did nothing for him. I'm not saying that Crank is 100% right but people are taking sides like they need to - when in fact, both sides basically had misunderstandings. I think that Crank could have handled it in a more mature way and I think Jessica is overly emotional, thus things blew up. You cannot ask people to be completly impartial in this because, no matter what, Crank found himself a team and a salary - something he would never have had before with his level (code B player) - while the Slayers team is no more.
If anything cranks statement only re-enforced what Jessica was saying all along. These kids are spoilt brats. Im happy boxer left them actually, they dont deserve his experience and advice. Alicia whining about not being picked up from the airport (if i remember correctly) and crank whining about the condition when slayers is/was easily the most funded team, so I can only expect them to be in the top tier in terms of condition/training regime alongside IM. Honestly, I don't even get crank's whines, look at how many superstars slayers brought out. Who was Alicia, ryung, mma, crank, coca before slayers? How can anyone whine about slayers training regimen?
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On October 22 2012 04:26 GoldforGolden wrote:
stop theorizing guys, it is just annoying to read and making the situation even more complicated than it needs to be.
especially when one trying to best theory another, it just looks silly
it's fine to argue how one should have done what, discuss about the content of the statement but theorizing is just completely going way beyond it needs to be
May I suggest you do not read it then, if you find it annoying? 
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On October 22 2012 04:26 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 04:11 WhiteDog wrote:I don't understand Crank's point of view at all. Like the team practice was bad ? What exactly ? Slayers was one of the most successful and one of the team with the most relaxed team environment. We even got video from Slayer players playing some random game like ninja turtle, and smiling, I don't see any team problem in there. Now of course he "rediscovered his passion for starcraft" thanks for axiom... blah. This statement from axiom give nothing more and doesn't do anything to deny Jessica's arguments until now. On October 22 2012 00:30 lilsusie wrote:On October 22 2012 00:25 Shival wrote:On October 22 2012 00:23 lilsusie wrote:On October 21 2012 23:46 farnham wrote:On October 21 2012 23:41 Ansinjunger wrote:
So Crank's statement doesn't have any "hard facts" like receipts, recordings, or replays, and people consider it a weak statement? As someone pointed out, the two statements largely coincide, except for Crank's talks with Boxer.
In any case, none of these boys had any reason to be covering their tracks and all that bs that Jessica does. If you can't see how she is acting out of spite while they just want to be free from this hateful situation, I don't know what will convince you short of Boxer selling her out, which is very unlikely. the crank statement only says that the atmosphere was bad, he tried to fix it but couldnt. it doesnt say what he saw as the problem and what he suggested if he suggested a payrise of 1000 percent that might have been good for morale but would have been hard for jessica and boxer to fund he blames that boxer was in the team house but didnt help them... help them with what? he needs to be specific also that short statement took them days to produce... looks like they edited out everything that could be countered by jessicas evidences He chose his words to make sure that no one else would get hurt. Obviously he's not going to be like "Boxer was actually doing X, Y and Z instead of doing A, B, C with us" because that would cause an even bigger ordeal. He's being politically very careful because he just wants people to know where he's coming from - Unlike Jessica, he's not looking to pick any more fights. Since when is saying that Boxer joined the house but didn't take care of them, nor did anything for the team, nor practiced starcraft 2 not hurting Boxer? Besides, if I were on the wrong side of the stick, I wouldn't be wanting to continue the fight either. What if he said Boxer came to the house but was only playing Hello Kitty Adventure all day and ignoring the players? That would make it worse, no? And according to the recording, he didn't say that Boxer did nothing for him. I'm not saying that Crank is 100% right but people are taking sides like they need to - when in fact, both sides basically had misunderstandings. I think that Crank could have handled it in a more mature way and I think Jessica is overly emotional, thus things blew up. You cannot ask people to be completly impartial in this because, no matter what, Crank found himself a team and a salary - something he would never have had before with his level (code B player) - while the Slayers team is no more. If anything cranks statement only re-enforced what Jessica was saying all along. These kids are spoilt brats. Im happy boxer left them actually, they dont deserve his experience and advice. Alicia whining about not being picked up from the airport (if i remember correctly) and crank whining about the condition when slayers is/was easily the most funded team, so I can only expect them to be in the top tier in terms of condition/training regime alongside IM. Honestly, I don't even get crank's whines, look at how many superstars slayers brought out. Who was Alicia, ryung, mma, crank, coca before slayers? How can anyone whine about slayers training regimen?
Even if all the facilities are there the social part can still hit you mentally a lot. I can see how Alicia doesn't like it that nobody picks him up at the airport after a long exhausting flight.
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I don't understand, what was so bad about the SlayerS environment? Crank said things needed to change and blamed Boxer, Jessica, and Cella for not doing anything. This was one of the most successful team in Korea, 2 GSL wins, 2 GSTL championship and one time runner up. They had acquired new talent and they were rapidly improving. They occupied 2 luxurious apartments in a wealthy neighborhood. They exercised by playing football and had other form of entertainment to keep them occupied when not playing/practicing SC2. They had a maid that came to cook and clean for them. They had a team van to take them places and often went out to eat.
When I look at everything, I can't blame anyone else but the players, specifically MMA and Crank. They ruined the mood and friendly atmosphere of the team. They affected other people around them with their negativity.
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EPT
