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United States23455 Posts
On October 17 2012 17:27 ROOTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:15 Veldril wrote:On October 17 2012 17:11 Akhee wrote:On October 17 2012 17:09 dynwar7 wrote:
Destiny can think/say what he wants....but only time will tell if SC2 is truly going to die or not...
So pessimistic... it already started to die, viewer number has never been so bad, no real way to come back from that even when kespa + hots is coming.... why dont you believe its dying? Define so bad. I don't see a big tournament with number less than 30k recently. And please don't compare the number to that of LoL or DotA2. That's different genre. i keep seeing this genre argument pop up, sponsors dont care what genre of game theyre sponsoring. they allocate their budget depending on the popularity of the game. they sure they dont give 2 fucks about what game theyre sponsoring as long as they they have biggest bang for their buck, meaning the most eyes on their product
But the only huge Dota2 turn out was The International. Correct me I'm wrong, but the current Dota2 tournaments like Starladder and EGMC don't get gigantic numbers.
If I'm wrong and they do get 50,000+, then correct me.
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On October 17 2012 17:24 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:21 soullogik wrote:
sc2 was flawed from the beginning.
hots looks like its more of the same.
if LoL is the future of esports, welp time to give up.
just gonna have to wait another 5 years for some developers to step up.
tho it doesn't look too good as most developers prefer to just shit out casual games to keep the masses entertained for a few weeks/month's.
This is why we need to put our faith in Dota 2. Amazing game? Check. Far from casual? Check. Good company supporting it? Check.Potential to get a lot of viewers? Check.
When was Valve ever considered a GOOD esports community? They've totally neglected CS 1.6 scene. TF2 is casual as hell (random crits  ). Maybe DOTA2 will break the mold since its a clone of the WC3 mod, but Valve does not strike me as a serious esports company.
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On October 17 2012 17:17 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:11 Akhee wrote:On October 17 2012 17:09 dynwar7 wrote:
Destiny can think/say what he wants....but only time will tell if SC2 is truly going to die or not...
So pessimistic... it already started to die, viewer number has never been so bad, no real way to come back from that even when kespa + hots is coming.... why dont you believe its dying? HDH invational had 35 000 live viewers + ALL of the 300 VoDs it was divided to have 100 000 - 400 000 live viewers. 2000$price pool. TSL4 finals had what, 25 000 liver viewers? The VoDs have 15 000 -20 000 viewers. This is tournament of 35 500$ price pool.
mmm I don't think TSL4 is a good example. All the crowd favorites were eliminated early on. The top finishers consisted of under the radar (to most people) Korean players. I know if naNiwa had made it past the 1st round I would've watched it till he went out at least.
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On October 17 2012 17:28 tyner wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:17 Sea_Food wrote:On October 17 2012 17:11 Akhee wrote:On October 17 2012 17:09 dynwar7 wrote:
Destiny can think/say what he wants....but only time will tell if SC2 is truly going to die or not...
So pessimistic... it already started to die, viewer number has never been so bad, no real way to come back from that even when kespa + hots is coming.... why dont you believe its dying? HDH invational had 35 000 live viewers + ALL of the 300 VoDs it was divided to have 100 000 - 400 000 live viewers. 2000$price pool. TSL4 finals had what, 25 000 liver viewers? The VoDs have 15 000 -20 000 viewers. This is tournament of 35 500$ price pool. mmm I don't think TSL4 is a good example. All the crowd favorites were eliminated early on. The top finishers consisted of under the radar (to most people) Korean players. I know if naNiwa had made it past the 1st round I would've watched it till he went out at least.
Actually I think thats a good example of the current state of affairs atm, no matter what prize pool you give it's often being won by unknown koreans so people stop watching, which reduces the turnout over time on events regardless of their prize pool.
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I disagree when Destiny says that there's hope for the future of Sc2, because there isn't. Blizzard isn't going to make it happen.
Aside from that I agree with everything that was said.
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United States23455 Posts
On October 17 2012 17:30 FXOUnstable wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:28 tyner wrote:On October 17 2012 17:17 Sea_Food wrote:On October 17 2012 17:11 Akhee wrote:On October 17 2012 17:09 dynwar7 wrote:
Destiny can think/say what he wants....but only time will tell if SC2 is truly going to die or not...
So pessimistic... it already started to die, viewer number has never been so bad, no real way to come back from that even when kespa + hots is coming.... why dont you believe its dying? HDH invational had 35 000 live viewers + ALL of the 300 VoDs it was divided to have 100 000 - 400 000 live viewers. 2000$price pool. TSL4 finals had what, 25 000 liver viewers? The VoDs have 15 000 -20 000 viewers. This is tournament of 35 500$ price pool. mmm I don't think TSL4 is a good example. All the crowd favorites were eliminated early on. The top finishers consisted of under the radar (to most people) Korean players. I know if naNiwa had made it past the 1st round I would've watched it till he went out at least. Actually I think thats a good example of the current state of affairs atm, no matter what prize pool you give it's often being won by unknown koreans so people stop watching, which reduces the turnout over time on events regardless of their prize pool.
Can't you say that about LoL, too? Let's say Korea/Taiwan/China take over LoL and the popular teams like TSM, CLG.na, Diginitas get wiped out and it's constantly Asian dominance. Do you think the viewership will continue to grow?
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True story, Destiny, in Korea, Starcraft 2 has been a failure, MrHoon already posted a blog about this, also, I agree with the fact that competitive games are not fun for casuals gamer, but I think Blizzard biggest error was the conflict with KeSPA, fortunately, it is over, and I think KeSPA and ESF should merge right now
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On October 17 2012 17:28 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:27 ROOTT1 wrote:On October 17 2012 17:15 Veldril wrote:On October 17 2012 17:11 Akhee wrote:On October 17 2012 17:09 dynwar7 wrote:
Destiny can think/say what he wants....but only time will tell if SC2 is truly going to die or not...
So pessimistic... it already started to die, viewer number has never been so bad, no real way to come back from that even when kespa + hots is coming.... why dont you believe its dying? Define so bad. I don't see a big tournament with number less than 30k recently. And please don't compare the number to that of LoL or DotA2. That's different genre. i keep seeing this genre argument pop up, sponsors dont care what genre of game theyre sponsoring. they allocate their budget depending on the popularity of the game. they sure they dont give 2 fucks about what game theyre sponsoring as long as they they have biggest bang for their buck, meaning the most eyes on their product But the only huge Dota2 turn out was The International. Correct me I'm wrong, but the current Dota2 tournaments like Starladder and EGMC don't get gigantic numbers. If I'm wrong and they do get 50,000+, then correct me.
a more appropriate comparison would be LoL seeing as dota2 is still only in the beta phase
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I think the most interesting part of this post is that destiny is saying alot of things what people on TL don't want, e.g.:
- Making the game easier
- 2v2v2v2 BGH
- Casualization of the game
etc.
But destiny is right - I actually thought about this sometime ago but never made the time to make a post. Blizzard listens to its fans, but in reality, the need to listen to the silent majority, rather than a small minority of the fanbase.
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On October 17 2012 17:24 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:11 Akhee wrote:On October 17 2012 17:09 dynwar7 wrote:
Destiny can think/say what he wants....but only time will tell if SC2 is truly going to die or not...
So pessimistic... it already started to die, viewer number has never been so bad, no real way to come back from that even when kespa + hots is coming.... why dont you believe its dying? ...It had ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND VIEWERS TWO WEEKS AGO. People are so pessimistic and act like the sky is falling just because LoL is bigger.
They feel cut down to size.
Anyway, I can make an argument for BW not being dead just like I can make an argument for SC2 not being dead.
You guys are still here.
I'm quite happy with the BW community as is. Hopefully you guys will realize one day that it doesn't really matter how big the size of the community is and then you tell me, "but we want it to grow and create more business opportunities!"
You already did your part by watching and spending what money you did and to this day do.
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On October 17 2012 17:24 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:21 soullogik wrote:
sc2 was flawed from the beginning.
hots looks like its more of the same.
if LoL is the future of esports, welp time to give up.
just gonna have to wait another 5 years for some developers to step up.
tho it doesn't look too good as most developers prefer to just shit out casual games to keep the masses entertained for a few weeks/month's.
This is why we need to put our faith in Dota 2. Amazing game? Check. Far from casual? Check. Good company supporting it? Check. Potential to get a lot of viewers? Check.
dude, why do i have to put my faith on a game I dont like, not amazing, so casual, not a good company suğpporting it, just becaue it might get alot of numbers.
We are not in it for numbers, we never were. we dont care about numbers.
I dont enjot dota2, or lol, not one is better than other, and both is garbage compared to sc2. they are not a good step to take foward if foward is playing good games.
I see no reason fo support these games.
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On October 17 2012 17:32 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:30 FXOUnstable wrote:On October 17 2012 17:28 tyner wrote:On October 17 2012 17:17 Sea_Food wrote:On October 17 2012 17:11 Akhee wrote:On October 17 2012 17:09 dynwar7 wrote:
Destiny can think/say what he wants....but only time will tell if SC2 is truly going to die or not...
So pessimistic... it already started to die, viewer number has never been so bad, no real way to come back from that even when kespa + hots is coming.... why dont you believe its dying? HDH invational had 35 000 live viewers + ALL of the 300 VoDs it was divided to have 100 000 - 400 000 live viewers. 2000$price pool. TSL4 finals had what, 25 000 liver viewers? The VoDs have 15 000 -20 000 viewers. This is tournament of 35 500$ price pool. mmm I don't think TSL4 is a good example. All the crowd favorites were eliminated early on. The top finishers consisted of under the radar (to most people) Korean players. I know if naNiwa had made it past the 1st round I would've watched it till he went out at least. Actually I think thats a good example of the current state of affairs atm, no matter what prize pool you give it's often being won by unknown koreans so people stop watching, which reduces the turnout over time on events regardless of their prize pool. Can't you say that about LoL, too? Let's say Korea/Taiwan/China take over LoL and the popular teams like TSM, CLG.na, Diginitas get wiped out and it's constantly Asian dominance. Do you think the viewership will continue to grow?
If that specific scenario happens, i think it will go the same way as SC2 did viewer ship wise unless riot can figure out a way to have those teams exposed more.
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Destiny just summed up everything i've been feeling about this game.
HOTS what a let down.
I spent 10 years on BW as a casual gamer. Fucking UMS was the best.
SC2 has so many fails, i keep playin on in hope.
i was so close to masters for so long... but no AOS is the only reason i play.
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SC2 is boring to watch. That and my excitement about SC in general has cooled off. I watched BW solely to see Flash play. Why would I watch SC2 if the matches are decided by one boring fight and the game is completely volatile? Today X is on top of his play, tomorrow he does not even make Code A.
Moba games are new to me, DotA2 I can watch sometimes. But this whole "ESPORTS" cult (there, I said it) is bullshit. Right now everyone is trying to make some quick bucks, aside from the few exceptions (I'd count TB as one).
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On October 17 2012 17:28 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 16:53 Myrkskog wrote:On October 17 2012 16:52 Jerubaal wrote:
So you're saying the reason BW was so big is because people were playing BGH a lot? Ok... That's pretty much what I did for 10 years in BW. I didnt play a ton of customs and didn't get into Iccup until season 7. You misunderstand me. I'm asking if the reason for the success of OSL/MSL etc was that people were playing BGH. That makes no sense to me. It certainly didn't contribute to the creation of the talent necessary to run those tournaments successfully. I think some people see the numerical success of LoL and feel the need to lash out at something. It certainly isn't game design. So you want to casualify the game to increase its popularity (this is going on meanwhile at the same an overlapping group is calling the game too easy). This sounds to me like the NBA promoting big dunks and no defense so that every 14 year old can become a Miami Heat fan while appreciation for real basketball is few and far between. You may be popularizing your sport, but you ruin it in the process. If you said that we needed chat channels so that we could get more people interested that way then I'd be more convinced, but a) you're not and b) I've been on TL, twitch chat and IRC channels and not that many people are interested in playing 1v1 seriously. Chat channels are not the problem.
What makes no sense for you. That people played CASUALY before they started to play competetively ? Starcraft 1 was big in Korea's PC Bangs before first OSL and MSL aired. Thats why Grrr.... was on television mind you it was before even Boxer reached his position. The game was grinded casually. Its true that was because of economy and sociology related issues. But no game or competition in the world started from competition, it always started as a game.
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On October 17 2012 17:32 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:30 FXOUnstable wrote:On October 17 2012 17:28 tyner wrote:On October 17 2012 17:17 Sea_Food wrote:On October 17 2012 17:11 Akhee wrote:On October 17 2012 17:09 dynwar7 wrote:
Destiny can think/say what he wants....but only time will tell if SC2 is truly going to die or not...
So pessimistic... it already started to die, viewer number has never been so bad, no real way to come back from that even when kespa + hots is coming.... why dont you believe its dying? HDH invational had 35 000 live viewers + ALL of the 300 VoDs it was divided to have 100 000 - 400 000 live viewers. 2000$price pool. TSL4 finals had what, 25 000 liver viewers? The VoDs have 15 000 -20 000 viewers. This is tournament of 35 500$ price pool. mmm I don't think TSL4 is a good example. All the crowd favorites were eliminated early on. The top finishers consisted of under the radar (to most people) Korean players. I know if naNiwa had made it past the 1st round I would've watched it till he went out at least. Actually I think thats a good example of the current state of affairs atm, no matter what prize pool you give it's often being won by unknown koreans so people stop watching, which reduces the turnout over time on events regardless of their prize pool. Can't you say that about LoL, too? Let's say Korea/Taiwan/China take over LoL and the popular teams like TSM, CLG.na, Diginitas get wiped out and it's constantly Asian dominance. Do you think the viewership will continue to grow?
It already is,the finals for world championship was a Koreans team vs Taiwan team.
The viewership numbers were the biggest ever.The NA scene currently is laughable compared to the Asians and 2 teams in Europe and yet the viewers grow.
The reason is that the scenes are very isolated and there is only a couple of tournaments where they meet in a year,on a grand stage.
In sc2 people are constantly reminded that the white guys suck dick,where as in LoL the NA scene gets a beating a couple of times in the year and that's it.People are given room for hope I guess.
Also the Asian teams believe it or not have personality and people love to cheer for them as well,even when it's a foreign team vs asians.
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On October 17 2012 17:24 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:21 soullogik wrote:
sc2 was flawed from the beginning.
hots looks like its more of the same.
if LoL is the future of esports, welp time to give up.
just gonna have to wait another 5 years for some developers to step up.
tho it doesn't look too good as most developers prefer to just shit out casual games to keep the masses entertained for a few weeks/month's.
This is why we need to put our faith in Dota 2. Amazing game? Check. Far from casual? Check. Good company supporting it? Check. Potential to get a lot of viewers? Check.
Comparing LoL and Dota is like comparing Budweiser and Sam Adams. Sam Adams might be better than Bud, but they're still both beers. Dota may be a better esports game, but to the casual fan the playing experience is roughly the same. So, yes, to the casual player, Dota is a casual game. The difference between a successful and unsuccessful game is not the difference between LoL and Dota.
This goes back to my earlier comments. Dota and LoL players play the same game they watch on the tournament streams. To me, trying to get people interested in SC2 by promoting silly game modes is like trying to grow a golf audience by making them play putt-putt.
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If making the game easier was needed in order to be more popular, BroodWar would have never been popular.
People will grind the fuck out of a hard game that they love to watch.. games like LoL and DoTA which are pretty easy to play have that teamwork aspect that dictates the skill ceiling. Starcraft does not have this, so it needs to be harder to play.
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On October 17 2012 17:37 O.Golden_ne wrote:
Destiny just summed up everything i've been feeling about this game.
HOTS what a let down.
I spent 10 years on BW as a casual gamer. Fucking UMS was the best.
SC2 has so many fails, i keep playin on in hope.
i was so close to masters for so long... but no AOS is the only reason i play.
I'm pretty sure we've agreed in this thread that Blizz shouldn't cater to casual gamers.
+ Show Spoiler +
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United States23455 Posts
On October 17 2012 17:37 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 17:32 Fionn wrote:On October 17 2012 17:30 FXOUnstable wrote:On October 17 2012 17:28 tyner wrote:On October 17 2012 17:17 Sea_Food wrote:On October 17 2012 17:11 Akhee wrote:On October 17 2012 17:09 dynwar7 wrote:
Destiny can think/say what he wants....but only time will tell if SC2 is truly going to die or not...
So pessimistic... it already started to die, viewer number has never been so bad, no real way to come back from that even when kespa + hots is coming.... why dont you believe its dying? HDH invational had 35 000 live viewers + ALL of the 300 VoDs it was divided to have 100 000 - 400 000 live viewers. 2000$price pool. TSL4 finals had what, 25 000 liver viewers? The VoDs have 15 000 -20 000 viewers. This is tournament of 35 500$ price pool. mmm I don't think TSL4 is a good example. All the crowd favorites were eliminated early on. The top finishers consisted of under the radar (to most people) Korean players. I know if naNiwa had made it past the 1st round I would've watched it till he went out at least. Actually I think thats a good example of the current state of affairs atm, no matter what prize pool you give it's often being won by unknown koreans so people stop watching, which reduces the turnout over time on events regardless of their prize pool. Can't you say that about LoL, too? Let's say Korea/Taiwan/China take over LoL and the popular teams like TSM, CLG.na, Diginitas get wiped out and it's constantly Asian dominance. Do you think the viewership will continue to grow? It already is,the finals for world championship was a Koreans team vs Taiwan team. The viewership numbers were the biggest ever.The NA scene currently is laughable compared to the Asians and 2 teams in Europe and yet the viewers grow. The reason is that the scenes are very isolated and there is only a couple of tournaments where they meet in a year,on a grand stage. In sc2 people are constantly reminded that the white guys suck dick,where as in LoL the NA scene gets a beating a couple of times in the year and that's it.People are given room for hope I guess.
Don't take one case of the GRAND FINALS OF THE WORLD and say it will be like that forever.
If the American and European teams get stomped by the Asians constantly, viewership will start to decline.
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EPT
